The Lynching of Michael Jackson

[springhill]

Oh how true this still is.


The Lynching of Michael Jackson
Does Bill O'Reilly have more power to foment hate than we thought?
By Jeff Koopersmith



Of course, television broadcasters excuse their near-pornographic slaughter of Jackson's reputation by playing up the sub-theme, "We must save the children" - specifically, "the children" with whom Jackson admits having sleepovers in his bedroom at the Santa Barbara ranch he has named "Neverland."

Under the guise of "policemen of the electronic age," these large corporate broadcasters offer and re-offer, over and over and over again, Michael Jackson's head on a bloody platter for viewers of all stripes to consume.

<snip>

On just one night earlier this week, television viewers across the nation were treated to four hours (three on ABC and one on NBC) of contemptible "revelations" concerning Michael Jackson's troubles with growing up and his increasing age. Last week FOX Television did a "Special" lynching of Jackson which seemed to whet the appetite of a viewing public with a near-insatiable desire to see the powerful crushed, no matter the expense, no matter the lack of substantiated evidence.

To say these were American networks' sorriest hours would be an understatement.

For three hours, ABC -- The "American" Broadcasting Network, owned largely and ironically by the Disney Corporation who created the Magic Kingdom upon which Mr. Jackson seems to have modeled his "ranch" -- exploited and abused the "King of Pop" so ferociously that one might think it was endeavoring to force the man who won't grow up toward suicide, much as the editorialists as the Wall Street Journal drove Vince Foster to snuff out his own life on a park bench.

<snip>

Many, from the e-mail these programs have generated, did not watch to learn about Jackson, but sought to gloat and rejoice over what at least appeared to be his psychological instability, the terror of his childhood, his loneliness, and his desolation.

All three networks featured ghastly interviews with plastic surgeons studying only photographs of Michael Jackson's face and giving their "expert" opinions on how many surgeries he'd undergone, and how botched they were in a contemptible flaunt of the Hippocratic Oath: "Do no harm."

<snip>

She -- and all the other pilers-on -- should hang their heads in shame.

http://www.geocities.com/mjsfp/english/LynchingofMJ.htm

[OldLeftieLawyer]

1. Wait just a darn minute........

Are you implying that the American press corps is less than diligent, responsible, and engaged?

You Commie BASTARD!!!

:sarcasm:

[Garth Beaumont]

94. The big money

spent on this trial could have saved lives! This whole thing stinks!

[dogday]

2. Well so much for the justice system. It only works if the MSM agrees

What a bunch of jerks and losers. Faux sounded like they had lost the election or something. All of their panties are bundled...

[jrthin]

4. That's one of the

pleasures I take in Jackson winning, all these mouthpieces are foaming at the mouth.

[spanone]

19. Nancy Graces' head was exploding on the Today Show. Hilarious!!!

[elehhhhna]

31. She is truly RETARDED.

[kenny blankenship]

3. I have a question -maybe it's off topic but...

If your young teenaged son had in fact been molested by a millionaire public figure, would YOU take settlement money from that public figure to go away, instead of prosecuting him and making him face a jury ?

It's always bothered me.

[dogday]

5. I would ask my child want he wanted to do.....

This particular crime carries a stigma with it that a young boy would not want known. I would ask him what he wanted, and if wanted the money, I would open a trust in his name. If he wanted conviction, I would stand behind him to the very end. I would have to say, it would be his decision.....

[VRine]

6. Possibly

He took the $$$ because his son wasn't molested.

Possibly, he saw an easy target in MJ.

[TankLV]

108. That is 99% sure.

These accusers all have $$ in place of eyeballs.

[tx_dem41]

109. Why are you 99% sure of this? n/t

[AngryAmish]

37. I would take the money

These sort of things are deeply shameful for a boy. Set the kid up so he can pursue his interests, not what he must do to make money.

[TankLV]

107. Well, I wouldn't have DRIVEN MY TEENAGE SON TO THE MILLIONAIRS' HOUSE

WHERE HE WOULD BE PUT IN THAT POSITION IN THE FIRST PLACE!

But that's just me.

And, no money would ever be enough, as opposed to pressing ahead with charges.

[GetTheRightVote]

7. I am so ery glad that they did not find him quilty, I never believed it

for one second, the man loves children even if he is really, really strange in his way of showing it.

:kick:

[Eloriel]

12. Yes, most pedophiles really, really DO love children, so much so that

they find jobs and careers where they can have easy access to them.

Jackson is a pedophile, a danger to children and a threat to society. My heart breaks that he is free to go "sin" again. And again. And again.

Here's something that may be of interest to some:

Psychiatric Inteview w/ Michael Jackson's first accuser
http://www.courttv.com/news/jackson/docs/psychiatric.html?page=1

It's especially instructive, IMO, in that it shows quite clearly how pedophiles soften up and "normalize" their prey.

[99Pancakes]

24. From a Californian

I believe MJ is guilty as hell, but I also watched as Sneddon laid out a LOUSY case. He brought in a mother that directed her whole testimony directly at the jury, wagging her finger at them and generally coming across like a looney. The jury said they were truly disturbed by her. Also, she has TWO prior instances of FRAUD. She's as wacko as King Wacko himself, only SHE took the stand.

Well, now that he's "free" maybe MJ can fix his nose again....and again....and again.

[BuelahWitch]

26. He can't sin if the parents keep their kids away from him

[mondo joe]

32. Yeah and rapists couldn't rape if women would stay hidden

Predators and pedophiles always seek out the VULNERABLE.

[BuelahWitch]

34. Bad analogy

Michael isn't out in public stalking these kids. They are BROUGHT to him. Someone had to give permission to let them sleep in his bedroom didn't they? After what happened ten years ago, why would a parent EVER
take their kids to Neverland LET ALONE allow them to sleep in his bedroom? Ooh settlement, ka-ching, ka-ching.

They're PIMPS

[mondo joe]

41. Because there are bad and foolish parents? Impoverished parents? Kid w/

cancer who have desperate families?

Given Jackson's resources it's easy to find vulnerable kids. And he may not be stalking them in parks but he has to be reaching out to them - they don't have access to him on their own.

[BuelahWitch]

63. So people who are desperate should shake down rich men?

The family involved were grifters. Mom pimped out the kid. They wouldn't have been there if Mom and Dad hadn't allowed it.

[mondo joe]

71. Even if mom "pimped out" the kid that doesn't mean MJ didn't

do anything wrong, or that he's entitled to.

Predators often target vulnerable kids. And surprise, that was what this kid was.

[BuelahWitch]

85. But if he WAS a target which I'm not entirely sure

since I wasn't there, he would NOT have been if he hadn't been put in that situation. Again, these people had a history of trying to get money from businesses and rich people thru dishonest means. And after the kid told of the "molestation", they got a lawyer before going to the police.

[mondo joe]

90. There's no doubt the kid was a target - he and other kids were selected

by and/or for Jackson. He's the one with the power and limited access - neither the kids nor parents can choose to be in Jackson's company without HIS selection.

[tx_dem41]

93. Sorry to interrupt, but aren't you two attempting to argue which side..

was "wrong", when an entirely plausible answer could be: "They were both wrong"?

[mondo joe]

98. Sure - but I never claimed the parents weren't wrong. They are part of

what MAKES the kid vulnerable.

[TankLV]

110. I really usually do admire you and your thoughts.

But I am especially afraid of people who haven't been there, who JUST KNOW what went on when everyone else doesn't! It must be amazing to JUST KNOW! So, when are you going to go out and shoot him or something, because you JUST KNOW he is guilty!

Save us from you "certainty". You DON'T KNOW anything that happened, just like the rest of us.

I trust the jurors.

[mondo joe]

111. If you "trust the jurors" then you must trust that he is a molestor

but that the prosecution did not meet the burden of evidence in this case.

That's what has been reported.

[TankLV]

148. No - I also limit it to the topic of THIS lawsuit.

They also said there was some serious doubt. And only ONE jurror stated that he believed that he was indeed a molestor. One out of how many jurors does not make it so.

Does he have some SERIOUS developmental problems? You bet. But a molestor? It has yet to be proven.

[tx_dem41]

113. "Save us from you[r] certainty"...yet three minutes earlier you stated...

...this:

"That is 99% sure.....These accusers all have $$ in place of eyeballs."


Can we be saved from your certainty, as well?

[TankLV]

147. I do trust the jurors - that is just MY OPINION.

I do not make such certain accusations as others here have, that "he is guilty - with NO uncertainty."

I truely don't know. That is why I am no "100%" certain. I still have room for doubt.

Unlike you.

[tx_dem41]

152. You have no idea as to my opinion on his guilt or inncoence...

since I haven't stated it (or if I even have one) on this thread (why do you think I have??).

Odd.

[Maat]

127. I agree, Eloriel.

[roguevalley]

133. The jury believes he has molested kids but their instructions were

explicit and they couldn't here. They wanted to but they had to follow the rules. He was acquitted but not found to be innocent is what they appear to be saying. They think he's one sick bastard.

[Andromeda]

134. So you think it's okay for a 46 year-old man

to sleep with young boys? You're very trusting to believe that it was all very innocent. Most of the time when this happens it is for sexual motives, not just innocent fun.

What makes you think Michael Jackson is any different than any other pedophile? He's more famous than most of them are and much richer than most other pedophiles are---but he's still a pedophile.

Just because he says he loves children you have to remember that, that IS the reason they like to be with children. They love them. They want to touch and fondle them sexually.

Maybe this bursts your bubble about Michael Jackson but he is just another garden variety pedophile who will still molest boys whenever, and wherever he has an opportunity to do so.

Yes siree, this jury has to be proud that it did its civil duty and set another pedophile free to molest again.

And Michael Jackson WILL molest more children.

[XanaDUer]

8. Didn't Bill O'Lielly target Whitney Houston under the

save-the-children banner a while ago?

Who will save us from Bill "Loofah" O'Lielley, though?

[saracat]

9. Oh, Please. MJ's own admissions brand him for what he is!

No one believes he just slept with little boys(and only little boys) 365 nights in a row and didn't mean anything by it.And it can't be a coincidence all the boys look alike. MJ is an obvious pedophile and the jury just felt that this case wasn't proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Interestingly several of the jury do think he is a pedophile. Jackson hung his own reputation out to dry. He should have stopped messing with kids long ago. The media didn't have to do anything to him. He made himself the center of attention by choice.I would be happy never to hear about him ever again. He should be sent to an asylum. He is nuts. I am very sorry for his children.

[springhill]

10. You have absolutely no proof...........

that he is a pedophile. The accusers were proven LIARS. Do you know what lying is? It means not telling the truth. There was nothing credible about this case, as in many of the allegations that have been made about Bill Clinton over the years. Your obvious disdain for Jackson, with no supporting facts is an obvious tipoff that you don't really care whether he is guilty or not.

Do you know how many kids have been to the Neverland over the years? Probably too many to count. Where are all the other allegations of this serial pedophile. No, the only ones you will ever get are the predators themselves looking for fame and MONEY.

[saracat]

38. The jury themselves (at least several of them) Believe Jackson is a

pedophile. They just don't think the state proved this particular case. The other cases were more substantial. They heard the evidence. Not guilty doe NOT mean innocent. That is a common mistake many people make. In England they have a category called "not proven" which more fits this case.
Jackson fits the profile of a pedophile. It is simply not believable that he sleeps with young boys innocently. He is delusional. His treatment of his own children should have him locked up. He told his children that they have no mother. He stated that children don't "need a mother. He named two of his children the same name, Prince Micheal. Those children do NOT go to school and he keeps them covered in masks. The man is bizarre and his kids will suffer for it. I do not believe that someone as obviously mentally unstable as Jackson ought to be allowed to have custody of children.
And don't ask me how I know he is unstable.His face alone is proof.And it is by no known definition of normal for a black man to attempt to turn himself into a version of a white woman!

[msmcghee]

44. So, are you saying if he . . .

. . tried to turn himself into a black woman then he would be normal?

How about a white man?

Are you saying that since he's not normal he must be a pedophile?

You say "It is simply not believable that he sleeps with young boys innocently."

I wonder what happens in your mind that you would come to that conclusion? In much of the world people live in poverty and parents share sleeping quarters and beds with their children. Are they all pedophiles?

[mondo joe]

48. Not because he's "not normal" but because he is reckless and inappropriate

and has exceptionally poor judgment.

[msmcghee]

49. I don't understand. Are you saying he's a pedophile . .

. . because he's reckless, inappropriate and has exceptionally poor judgment?

[mondo joe]

51. No, I am saying I believe he molested kids at worst and at best I believe

he is a danger to kids.

But not because he's "not normal", whatever that means.

[msmcghee]

61. How can you say that?

Millions of taxpayer's dollars have just been spent attempting to prove he molested a young boy. It was the DA's very best shot.

According to the jury he didn't even come close.

Are you saying they saw the DA's evidence but they are all idiots - but you know better - even though you were not there?

I understand your feelings. It just seems that you are allowing those feelings to dictate your conclusions.

[mondo joe]

69. That they failed to prove a case against an army of lawyers does not

make MJ innocent. In fact jury members said they DID believe he molested boys but didn't meet the burden of evidence in THIS case.

If nothing else he selfishly chose to indulge in inappropriately intimate contact with vulnerable kids.

[msmcghee]

77. My purpose in responding to you is not to try to say . .

. . that you are wrong. I just want to expose you to another set of possibilities.

When an army of lawyers prevail it's usually on a technicality. In this case a very reasonable jury said that the prosecution had/made no credible case.

A jury member said they did believe he molested boys but that the DA didn't make the burden of proof. Think about that. MJ was accused of molesting the boy. This jury member said they really believed he did it.

If that was true then the jurist lied. They should have convicted him.

I think this jurist was fearing the outcry from people (perhaps like you) who would have him convicted regardless of the burden of proof.

[tx_dem41]

80. "If that was true then the jurist lied. They should have convicted him."

If you believe that, I hope you never serve on a jury. You don't understand the way the court system works.

[mondo joe]

81. No, the jurist didn't lie. The jurist said the prosecution failed to meet

the burden of evidence - that burden is not the jurist's feeling.

MJ is fortunate the jury concluded as it did - another jury might not have.

[Bake]

95. In your example, they sleep together because they HAVE TO

MJ does it because he ENJOYS it.

A 40-something year old man who invites other peoples' children to share his bed is WRONG. It does not take much of a brain to recognize that. If the perv weren't MJ, everybody would be screaming to hang him.

Bake

[mondo joe]

100. Absolutely. It is inappropriate intimacy with someone in a power

imbalance.

I too am a 40 year old man and I would never do such a thing, despite the fact that I know I would never do anything sexual with a child.

[tx_dem41]

99. I didn't realize that Michael Jackson was the father of the young boy..

involved in the trial. I feel foolish for missing that pertinent fact. :eyes:

[saracat]

132. They are not living in mansions!Jackson doesn't live in poverty!

Are you saying he doesn't have an extra bed? And I also doubt Jackson shares his bed to keep warm!
And people don't pay victims 25 million dollars to keep their mouths shut if they have nothing to hide.

[roguevalley]

136. I think paying off two sets of people to prevent trials about molestation

show that he's a pedophile. Using the comparison of people sleeping together because they are poor makes them pedos is a bad analogy. Usually people use it when they don't have an argument that fits.

If its okay for Mikey to do this than any man anywhere can do this with say, your child. Priests and boy scout troop leaders and drifters all do the same thing and we applaud their arrest and conviction. We don't believe Mike is bad when he does the same thing? Double standard.

[Tomee450]

145. Wrong.

"I think paying off two sets of people to prevent trials about molestation"
Posted by roguevalley
show that he's a pedophile."

You are not correct. You need to talk to lawyers who try civil cases. Many celebrities and other wealthy people will agree to a settlement because they feel a long drawn out trial will not benefit them even if innocent. The taint of the allegations will remain long after the trial and perhaps affect their ability to earn a living. They lose much more by going to trial. It is quite common for people to settle out of court and not be guilty of anything.

[saracat]

153. They don't pay 25million dollars worth. That is an unheard of settlement.

Even a million dollars would be a lot.Most cases settle for a lot less. MJ had to be really worried about something. And it is very odd how that kis could describe perfectly his gentials and today those are pix that MJ is demanding back!Hmmm.

[donheld]

11. No one believes???

I believe it is very possible that he only slept with, no sex, these children. MJ is NOT an obvious pedophile. The media did have many things to do with him and his plight. They have only crucified the man. I am very sorry for all of our children to grow up in a world such as this.

[Eloriel]

13. How many 40 year old men do YOU know who sleep with children?

OTHER people's children?

If you think that it's "very possible" he did nothing to any of these children, and that he's "NOT an obvious pedophile," you've got a lot to learn about child sexual abuse and pedophiles. I hope you do so before you have children.

Here's a start:

Psychiatric Inteview w/ Michael Jackson's first accuser
http://www.courttv.com/news/jackson/docs/psychiatric.html?page=1

[donheld]

15. I'm not saying what he did was "normal"

But it doesn't prove pedophilia.

[Eloriel]

28. No, it dosn't prove pheophilia, but it DOES prove

something not "normal," and something that points very, very strongly to the strong possibility (if not probability) of pedophilia.

Have YOU read this? --

Psychiatric Inteview w/ Michael Jackson's first accuser
http://www.courttv.com/news/jackson/docs/psychiatric.html?page=1

[msmcghee]

46. Actually, it points to the opposite conclusion . .

If he was actually a pedophile it would be virtually impossible for him to sleep with hundreds of young boys over the years without molesting some of them.

If that happened, out of those hundreds of opportunities I suspect he would have been honestly accused and convicted long ago. Instead, only a small number of obvious frauds have attempted to accuse him. The first one even settled.

If he was actually a pedophile, he could easily have gone incognito to a Carribean or SE Asian country where I have heard that young boys are provided in brothels for that purpose - at virtually no risk to himself.

He may have a psychological disorder where he is attempting to remain in a childlike state. That seems most probable to me. But pedophile, hardly. We'd all know by now if that was the case.

[mondo joe]

59. What makes you think he HASN'T used boys in SE Asia? Your whole point

is no one would know if he did.

[msmcghee]

70. If he was getting what he wanted right here . .

. . in Neverland, why would he bother to go to SE Asia?

If he was going to SE Asia, why would he expose himself to criminal prosecution here?

Why didn't he just "adopt" a young boy and do with him what he wished, anytime he wanted to?

I doubt that real pedophiles would invite young boys to sleep over with their parents' permission. Especially very rich and public ones.

I think he's just too weird for you and you feel he should be punished for that - regardless of the law.

[mondo joe]

75. Maybe he gets most of it abroad and only occcassionaly does here

which would explain why there have been only a few accusations - that pretty much explains your initial question.

He's not "too weird" for me -- he's to inappropriate with children, including his own (if in fact they are his).

But if you want to go on excusing him the way Freepers excuse Bush, you go right ahead.

[tx_dem41]

78. No....not weird. I think a 40 yo man sleeping with 10 yo boys is wrong...

and pitiful. What do you think it is?

[msmcghee]

91. As long as no sex is involved I think it's probably . .

. . an attempt by MJ to remain in a childlike state. I think he sees sleep-overs as what young kids do with each other that's fun and innocent.

There's my uninformed psychological guess. Identity is a very powerful psychological force. The vast majority of us follow the commands of our genes and social pressures to assume the standard identity for our age, sex and gender. Some few of us don't. Child molesters are typically adult males who have an adult male identity with an inappropriate sexual target. Do you think that MJ has an adult male identity?

As I understand it there was often more than one kid sleeping over. They played games, watched videos, whatever. I see nothing inherently threatening about an adult male who wishes to remain a child - any more than I see children themselves as a threat.

It was unfortunate that he was probably exposed to some pretty violent abnormal social forces as a child to cause this. If he was at all exploitative in these relationships then I'd say that is a danger to kids. I think they were invited because MJ thought they were cool kids to play with and invite to his Neverland fantasy. I think the parents went along happily.

[mondo joe]

96. And it's par for the course for molestors to try to "remain in a childlike

state". In fact many molestors claim they FEEL like children inside.

Just more of the behavior that isn't simply "weird" but meets the profile of a molestor.

[tx_dem41]

97. So you wouldn't have a problem with a 40 yo man, who had...

.."probably exposed to some pretty violent abnormal social forces as a child" sleeping with your son? I mean, its not wrong. He just wants to remain a child, mind you.

[roguevalley]

138. Mikey is almost fifty. He NEEDS TO GROW UP! For godsake,

what a pathetic retarded idiot. How many brigades of people have told him to GROW UP, FOOL! Many. I don't find him sweet or innocent and pretending to be a child in a man body is a sickness. He's a sick, sick man and his face reflects it. I am sure he has body dismorphic disease what with chopping his face half off and all.

The bottom line is: Would you allow your own children, your boys to sleep overnight for months on end with this man or any other fifty year old geezer? Mike is almost fifty. Think about it.

[TankLV]

116. Do you actually listen to yourself?!?!

You and the others are truly frightening. A true "lynch mob" mentality - that fits in nicely with the repuke fascists currently in power. Why bother with a trial at all since all of you "experts" who "just know", and weren't even there, or at the fucking trial!

I've got a great idea: Why don't you and your "friends" here, who "just know" he's guilty, round up all the people you "just know" are guilty of one crime or otherwhether they ARE innocent or not, and put them in - oh, I don't know - some island prison somewhere?!?! Oh, wait, that's already currently being done by OTHER repukes!

[tx_dem41]

119. I must have missed the post where Mondo Joe called for ..

....extra-legal action. Was that before or after the one where he stated his personal opinion?

[mondo joe]

120. Since when is belief in guilt "lynch mob mentality"? What is it when we

on DU discuss LIHOP or MIHOP?

How about our certainty about the case for the Iraq war?

And YOU have already noted YOUR certainty that the accusers are out for $ - how repuke of you.

[TankLV]

150. You are putting YOUR "repuke" mentality at work on what I said.

I never said I was 100% certain. I have my opinions. YOU and your ilk are the ones with a definite lynch mob mentality. That is unquestionable.

[mondo joe]

151. Actually you said you were 99% sure the accusers are in it for $$$

Talk about lynch mob.

[roguevalley]

139. I recall the same commentary, personal opinions during the priest

scandal. Do you feel that was a lynch mob mentality too? Or is only Michael free to cavort with children this way?

[Maat]

130. Did you read the report via the link that Eloriel provided?

Try pages 25 & 26.

There is virtually NO way that a young teenager would make this up.

I was a social worker, and I investigated hundreds of these cases.

If he did this once, I guarantee you he has done it many times.

What Michael admitted to in court is classic 'grooming.'

You bet he is fixated with a certain age, and remembering a certain age.

Because that's the age at which it happened to him (Michael).

He is self-centered and childlike.

Classic profile.

Just because he was found 'not guilty' does not mean that he did not do these things.

They always pick kids with troubled parents - that way they can later call them liars.

Just my humble opinion.

If he has done the things stated in the report, and I have no reason to believe that a youngster could lie to a mental health professional in that great a detail, then he IS a pedophile.

Oh well, DUers can believe what they want - just don't leave any children alone with him again - ever.

[roguevalley]

137. you assume they would tell. victims don't usually and not in this

case when MJ would use his money to crush you to death. He did and if this was some guy down the street, I am sure you would be there with a can of gas along with everyone else to burn him at the stake.

[wuushew]

21. Your threshold for guilt is much to low

This alleged crime is based purely on conflicting testimony and supposition. Where is the physical evidence, where is motive? Prior suspicion cannot be considered as evidence since MJ has no prior criminal history.

Without evidence, cases such as these are simply bogging down the already overloaded criminal justice system and causing indirect harm to society. Shame on you for advocating a paranoid vigilante state.

[Eloriel]

27. What kinda physical evidence you looking for?

I'm having a little trouble figuring out what COULD have been collected as physical evidence but wasn't. Help me out here.

[wuushew]

42. Pedophilia is essentially an unprovable crime

murder, rape, even white collar crime are all easier to prosecute because the events fit into logical and sequential order and can often be tested to prove the validity of the arguments. Only certain configurations of truth result in what is physically possible. If the prosecution is better able to use the available evidence for its theory then it deserves to prevail in court.

Murder tends to leave blood, bruising and the murder weapon itself. Rape is proven by nature of bodily fluids usually left and or the pattern of bruises on the victim. Enron style fraud left audio, tapes, memos and a chain of hierarchy that were compelling. What was this in case in a nutshell? It was he said she said. How do you prove MJ gave alcohol to minors? Where was the bottle? Were was the receipt of purchase or third party documentation of intoxication? Again the evidence is purely based on testimony.

I have real problems with what is essentially profiling for the purposes of conviction. Black men, Arabs or other minorities if held to such standards given historical bigotry would be incarcerated at much higher rates than the general population. You in your argument are arguing that MJ because of his personality is likely to be a molester of children. That in itself is not sufficient to satisfy the collective concept of reasonable truth in our country. All criminal prosecution must be viewed in the light of independent non-related events. Can you see how long standing systems of justice could compound bias by establishing a pattern of wrongful conviction? Testimony must supported by physical evidence outside that offered by a victim to result in conviction. Profiling works in serial murder but the state must rely on other means to prove that a suspect is guilty of said crimes.

The ideal juror is one immune to emotional appeal and distraction. Directly analogous to the impartiality desired in that of arbitration. One should not appeal to the parental instincts of a juror which would cloud what would be a more difficult case to prove than typical criminal cases nor should one evoke the emotions of sympathy or disgust in the rendering of verdict severity in a capital murder case.

A jury exists solely for the purposes of sampling a collection of people that hopefully are representative of the gestalt truth present in the larger society, a truth that supersedes yet tries to include as much as possible the individual's way of seeing the world.

It seems to me societal justice and utility can better be served by devoting the same resources spent on unprovable crimes on better child care or public funds which allow better supervision of underage children. Perhaps such funds could be spent on public awareness of the potential dangers of leaving young children in the care of eccentric millionaires or ancient celibate religious institutions. The same protection would afforded society for arguably fewer resources.

[Eloriel]

126. esssentially unprovable -- how convenient,

how fucking conveeeeenient.

I have real problems with what is essentially profiling for the purposes of conviction. Black men, Arabs or other minorities if held to such standards given historical bigotry would be incarcerated at much higher rates than the general population. You in your argument are arguing that MJ because of his personality is likely to be a molester of children.

It's not profiling -- which as I understand the term is done on the basis of PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICs first and foremost. AND, this is about his behavior. Nothing whatsoever to do with his personality.

That in itself is not sufficient to satisfy the collective concept of reasonable truth in our country.

Yeah, well, I'm neither the judge nor the jury in the case which means I'm perfectly entitled to my opinion on the matter, and to state it.

Can you see how long standing systems of justice could compound bias by establishing a pattern of wrongful conviction?

I'm FAR more concerned about all the perps who (a) are never identified (b) never arrested (c) never charged (d) never convicted and (e) get to molest again and again and again. Not all that many wrongful convictions that I know of, compared to these numbers.

Testimony must supported by physical evidence outside that offered by a victim to result in conviction.

Well then, to complete the syllogism you've basically drawn, no one can ever be convicted of molesting children since there's no evidence and it's unprovable anyway.

The ideal juror is one immune to emotional appeal and distraction.

The ideal juror for whom? Both prosecutors and defense attorneys typically make emotional appeals. They obviously wabt them to work.

It seems to me societal justice and utility can better be served by devoting the same resources spent on unprovable crimes on better child care or public funds which allow better supervision of underage children. Perhaps such funds could be spent on public awareness of the potential dangers of leaving young children in the care of eccentric millionaires or ancient celibate religious institutions.

And their fathers, step-fathers, mom's boyfriends?

The same protection would afforded society for arguably fewer resources.

On what planet? The kind of supervision you're talking about would be PRISON, solitary confinement at that. Get real.

[candy331]

23. I've known plenty 40 year old and older who slept with children but

at a time when the nation was saner and was not steeped in this false illusion of morality. When I grew up people of the same sex roomed together, the same sex could be best friends who were seen going and doing most everything together. My best friend and I slept over at each others house and we slept in the same bed and no one even thought of anything sexual, today we would be branded as lesbians. Admit it this world, really the US is a sick place. Everything is circumspect nothing is viewed as innocent no matter how innocent it really is. I wonder who launched this cloud of skepticism on this nation. I too say the media has been in the forefront when they question and throw innuendo and sleaze everywhere but fail to report the true news. Many Blacks before integration had no other choice but to bunk with each other and strangers when they traveled as they sure didn't have access to many motels and hotels. WAS IT TRUE, WAS MARY MAGDALENE JESUS'S LOVER? Is it that some people just need to see the worst in others to hide the worst in them?

[saracat]

40. People slept together because they HAD too because

of space limitations and many of us did have "sleepovers " with friends, but what is Micheal's excuse? Not enough room in Neverland?

[mondo joe]

55. Indeed. And I understand families choosing to sleep together -

but these are not MJ's children or family, and they are in a situation in which they are under his power.

At the very best this is inappropriately intimate contact.

[shimmergal]

43. Thanks, Candy331, for giving us a bit of historical perspective.

Even earlier, people bunked with strangers in inns--very few had the luxury of always being able to sleep alone if not with their mate.

I think, however, that with the age of consent raised to 18 or even later and prosecutions of 19-year-olds who have sex with a 17-year-old, we're also getting a phenomenon where teenagers serve as scapegoats for our anxiety about sex. Not nearly as much is forbidden between adults as used to be--but we're making up for it by expanding the definition of pedophilia.

[jeffrey_X]

124. How many 40 year old black men do you know....

who are one of the most successful and recognizable faces in the world?

Michael Jackson may be guilty, I don't know. I do know that he is probably not your prototypical pedophile.

Have you ever thought for a minute that Jackson's interest in children comes from the fact that he probably hates adults? Adults have probably been trying to take control of his life since he was a teenager. Agents, executives, lawyers, etc. have been apart of his life since he was a young boy. It's not too hard to imagine that he has always preferred to hang out with kids because of their innonence and the fact that they weren't money-hungry, conrolling adults.

Just my 2 cents.

[mondo joe]

125. You just described a typical pedophile

Hates adults, sees himself as innocent, victimized, child like.

Except for SCALE of things based on his wealth and fame he's every inch the typical pedo with regard to his MO.

[a kennedy]

14. Michael is way to weird, but he is NOT a pedophile. I always thought

he was easy prey, paid off the first one, then it became to easy for someone to do it again, and lets talk about the DA, he's wanted MJ for ever. No, I don't believe Michael is a pedophile, he's just got some terrible, terrible pains inside that we will never know about. I loved the Thriller.

[Piperay]

17. Same here

that is the way I see it too.

[mondo joe]

18. The DA wanted MJ because MJ got off the first time and someone

with his resources is very difficult to investigate and prosecute.

[BuelahWitch]

29. DA went off on Paula Zahn

When she told him that newspapers were reporting he had his head in his hands when the verdict was read. "I didn't, I didn't!!" He's kinda loony toons too...

[marshall]

50. Can you be a pedophile and not molest?

I was thinking about this as I was listening to talking heads discuss the case. Michael Jackson does pretty much fit the profile of the classic pedophile. But do all pedophiles molest children? I think just as you have some alcoholics who do not drink (I've heard them called dry drunks--they have the behavior without the booze) you can have somebody who fits the description but does not molest (or at least does not molest in all cases).

[roguevalley]

140. then you have no problem letting your son sleep with him this

way? That is the bottom line for me. I am very interested if you can do this given the circumstances. Rather reminds me of people who tolerate war until they or their kids have to go. Do we tolerate this in Michael because its someone else's kids or do we draw the line when its our own?

I wouldn't sue him or prosecute him if this were my child. I would stick a pitch fork in his head. But then, that is just me. :)

[Roy]

16. The proof is in the mind!!!!

I think a lot of theses people put themselves in Michael Jacksons' shoes.
Since they themselves would never be able to sleep on the other side of a bed with a child and not be sexually aroused, they fail to see how anyone else can.
It's their own mind that can't stay out of the gutter, so they project their own guilt toward a person like MJ, who appears to be still so childest in his own mind that sex is not an obsession as it so obviously is with them, eveidenced by the fact that they can't stop talking about it.

These people know absolutely nothing about Michael Jackson, but they know themselves very well, so to be so deeply rooted in their perception of what positively must have happened when they clearly were not there, the only option is to look inward and then go into projection mode.

[mondo joe]

20. MJ is a reckless person with VERY poor judgment. I pity his kids

who have NO ONE to advocate for them.

[Tomee450]

122. Great post.

I've thought exactly the same thing for a long time. A lot of projecting going on.

[saracat]

39. I am sorry for Micheals children who are being raised by an unstable

parent!They are the ones that are the true victims in this!

[alarimer]

22. I agree with you

It is shocking to me that he has so many defenders. I guess csome celebrities will always get the benefit of the doubt. He desperately needs help, medication, or whatever.

[candy331]

25. I think this whole nation nation needs help, medication/whatever

I wonder how Hillary feels today with the accusations lobbed at her and Bill being a rapist. Let's face it this Free Speech Nation is a zone for every sick accuser.

[msmcghee]

36. Thanks for saying that Candy . .

I don't see any evidence that MJ has a sexual attraction to young boys. I would think that with the amount of money he has and the number of young boys he has admitted to sleeping with, that more than one of them would have successfully accused him of molestation by now, if that had happened.

But, even if MJ is a pedophile (sexually attracted to young boys), that still is not a crime. He has to act on his sexual attraction before it is a crime. Many humans live without sexual fulfillment. The vast majority of priests and nuns for example, who take their celibacy vows, seriously.

I can't imagine someone having an irresistible sexual attraction to young boys, being able to sleep with them frequently, without some molestation occurring - unless the attraction is more of a psychological / spiritual nature.

Sure, it's weird. But weird is not criminal - nor is it necessarily bad, except in the minds of people who perhaps fear real pedophilic attractions in themselves - and feel a need to inoculate themselves societally by screaming for MJ's head on a platter.

Sorry for the rant but I think this trial is more interesting for what it says about us than what it says about MJ.

[earth mom]

86. Um...didn't his ACCUSER describe how Michael Jackson molested him?

How is that not proof? Why was the accuser not believed? Because his family is poor and his mom was not liked? What a piss poor reason.

Make no mistake: Michael Jackson IS a pedophile. Adult men don't go around sleeping with kids for the "spiritual experience". Instead adult men sleep with and have relationships/sex with other adults.

And FYI-people who protest this awful travesty of justice says nothing more about them than they are concerned citizens who don't want to see this happen again to other children in the future. Defending Michael Jacksons bizarre behavior is more suspect IMO.

And one more thing...MJ already paid off another kid and his family about 10 years ago for the exact same charges. Just a "coincidence" right? :eyes:

[roguevalley]

141. when he does it again and he will because he can't help it, what

will be the mantra then? he didn't do it? How many times must he get caught before someone steps in and protects the victims?

[mondo joe]

146. It'll be with some poor kid from SE Asia or Latin America who will

not have access to US attorneys or media and no one will know about it.

[alarimer]

144. Well I hope she can sue that author

It is just sick. They are making shit up now.

[Lindacooks]

53. Yep, I agree.

No grown man needs to sleep with little boys. And the huge settlements he's paid in the past to silence his victims is proof positive that he's guilty as sin.

[roguevalley]

135. he called the kids he had over 'rubbers'. I am still trying to assimilate

that one.

[Bushknew]

30. Evidence of MJ being railroaded?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=224&topic_id=656&mesg_id=656

[CatWoman]

33. Looks like he's being lynched all over again

only this time, on DU.

[BuelahWitch]

35. MJ's biggest sin is being a rich, black man who's odd

Three strikes he's out.

[tx_dem41]

47. No.....his biggest sin is being a has-been musician. n/t

[mondo joe]

60. Apparently that's his biggest defense as well.

[BuelahWitch]

82. No, it's called compassion and empathy

It's called, "There but for the grace of God go I" Just because MJ is rich doesn't mean that one cannot have compassion for the man.

[mondo joe]

84. Funny, I don't recall that compassion for a lot of OTHER people.

They must not fit the right demographic to deserve empathy.

[BuelahWitch]

87. Now that's just ambiguous

You have no idea who I am and have no right to make that assumption.

[mondo joe]

92. I don't need to know you since I didn't assume anything about YOU.

But it's a matter of record that DU doesn't spare much empathy or assumption of innocence for a range of people, provided they are republican.

[Tomee450]

123. You're sure right about that.

[springhill]

131. You got that right..........

It's like I've said, because he is perceived as being wierd, he must be a pedophile. Oh, and to the poster who said that the accuser testified against Jackson, and that this somehow proves he's guilty? wELL, he was caught LYING! Do you understand that? Lying, lying, lying. Jesus Christ, do any of you read?

[tx_dem41]

45. Do we really want to make Michael Jackson a cause celebre for liberals?

n/t

[msmcghee]

54. Do we really not want to defend someone . .

. . who is innocent - from slanderous accusations because they are weird?

I always thought defending people from bullies is what liberals were supposed to do.

[tx_dem41]

56. I have no idea if he was innocent. I know that the state didn't prove...

their case to the jury, thus he was found not guilty.

A 40 year old man sleeping with 10-12 yo boys is not only "weird". Its "wrong".

[wuushew]

68. By whose value system?

such arrangements were by consent of MJ, the parents and the children. Absent established criminal behavior why is that wrong?

[tx_dem41]

72. By my value system, the same one that makes me a liberal..

The OP is asking ME to make him a liberal cause celebre. Thus, for ME to make a decision, I have to use MY value system.

Is it okay in YOUR value system for a 40 yr old man to sleep with a 10 yo boy?

[wuushew]

83. Sorry absolutist value systems are non-sense

Society is a merely a collection of individual perceptions, the most universal of which are codified into law.

Do you also consider adult consensual polygamous marriage wrong, or that guy in Germany who consensually gave himself to cannibalism?

Strange does not equal wrong, No proof of crime should equal no opinion on the matter, otherwise it is merely a contest of whose free will and whose beliefs are superior to others.

[mondo joe]

88. But if "Society is a merely a collection of individual perceptions..

the most universal of which are codified into law", what difference does proof of crime make?

By your definition of society, crime "merely a contest of whose free will and whose beliefs are superior to others" anyway.

[tx_dem41]

89. I notice you didn't answer the question.

There's nothing absolutist about it. We're not talking caring father and sick son.

As for your two examples, no I find neither "wrong". One has to do with ADULTS, and one was an act upon himself. Not sure, what that has to do with the MJ case though.

I guess you want to live in a Statist world where people can't have their own opinions. I am much more libertarian than you. I have my values, my opinions. They are not bound by your State.

[wuushew]

How is your's the more libertarian view?

You are judging non-harmful agreed apon activity as inappropriate and ultimately worthy of prevention. Assume nothing but for your own truth and leave others be save for the closest approxiamation of universal agreed values that conform to golden rules.

[mondo joe]

102. "Non-harmful agreed upon activity"?

Tell me, do you believe 11 year olds can form consent regarding intimate activity with adults?

8 year olds?

4 year olds?

[wuushew]

104. There was no sexual activity or conduct

accused of such crimes MJ was found not guilty. Your beef is with a 40+ year old man sleeping in the same bed as a 10 year old correct?

[mondo joe]

106. Wait, you said it was agreed upon. I'm asking at what age you believe

a person can determine for themselves what is non-harmful intimacy with an adult.

8?

3?

13?

[wuushew]

112. In my opinion non-genital related physical conduct is not intimate

If the touching was unwelcome by the child or guardian that in itself would be a separate crime, but consensual nearness or touching of the child in a non-sexual nature should should not be labeled a sex crime regardless of the psychological effect to the adult. The law's perspective should be from that of the child's.

You would agree that there is some continuum as it would be ludicrous to assume that a pat on the head is equivalent to child rape.

[mondo joe]

114. Sleeping with someone is indeed intimate.

It may or may not be sexually intimate but it is physically intimate.

And don't compare sleeping with someone with a pat on the head. A head-pat is unlikely to end up with someone with an erection "spooning" against you.

So at what age do you think a child is able to form consent on such intimate activity?

[wuushew]

118. With parental consent any age under 18

Your "spooning" example is not a valid criticism because it involves the adult's genitals and the minor's body intentionally contacting, that too was explained in my preconditions.

[mondo joe]

121. No - the intimacy that occurs while sleeping together is not intentional

but one of the things you'd expect an ADULT to be aware of.

[tx_dem41]

115. So a 40 yo man tongue kissing a 10 yo boy or a 40yo man ...

feeling a 10 yo girls breasts would be a "non-intimate", and, I assume, a "non-sexual" act?

[tx_dem41]

103. Well, since you still haven't answered my original question...

how about getting more specific. You wouldn't have a problem with a 40 yo man sleeping with your 12 yo son. And, if you're going to say it depends on the "context", please provide the context where it would be okay (outside of a family member).

My thoughts are more libertarian, because you believe:

"No proof of crime should equal no opinion on the matter". Let me add what I inferred from this.

"No proof of crime (provided by the State and judged by the State's Courts), should equal no (personal) opinion on the matter".

Why do you want the judgement of the State to dictate what my personal opinions are? Very, very Statist.

[roguevalley]

142. people who pimp out their children usually get arrested. there is

no defense against pimping out your kids.

[mondo joe]

57. But who is the bully here? I'd say MJ is the powerful one, exploiting

vulnerable kids.

[tx_dem41]

58. Great point, Mondo Joe. n/t

[msmcghee]

62. Exploiting?

The jury says they were not molested. How were they exploited?

[mondo joe]

65. He exploits poor kids in troubled families for his own purposes, even if

that is just to feel them in his bed or satisfy some other longing of his.

And please get this straight: the jury did not say he did not molest THEM - the jury said there was not enough evidence in THIS case to prove he did.

In fact a number of jury members said they DID believe he molested boys.

[BuelahWitch]

66. Do we want to take the positions of the Wing Nut talking heads

who would crucify him? That's what plenty are doing on this board.

[mondo joe]

73. Wait, is saying we think he's guilty "crucifying him"?

I'd like to know.

[H2O Man]

79. I agree with your posts on this thread

in general. I do not know enough about this specific case to pretend I have an opinion. However, when Michael's supporters use the word "crucify," I think it verges on a tortured interpretation of the circumstances.

[tx_dem41]

74. Oh...so its either one extreme or the other?

Nice logic.

I don't sacrifice my values and morals based on what the "other guy" is doing. Its a shame some people would.

[Evergreen Emerald]

52. Or how about: "The chilling of molest victims everywhere"

The message sent by this verdict is: shut the fuck up. Because if you have the guts to stand before America and say: "this is what he did to me," you will be villified. You will be called a liar and unstable and your family will be tormented. Don't risk it. He can manipulate you and molest you and use you to his heart's content. And in the end he can call you a liar and call your mother a bitch. And the world will embrace him.

So, the next victim of a molestor: Shut up. It is your fault. It is your mother's fault. It is certainly not the pervert's fault.

[earth mom]

101. Whoa-what a powerful post!

And sadly, very true.

The poor, weak and young have no voice, no power, nothing.

The rich, famous and powerful rule and always win...and will stomp your lights out if you challenge them.

And the saddest part of all is that people will support their evil deeds because of who they are.

What a country we live in.... :puke:

[Neshanic]

129. Thank you for saying exactly what needed to be said. The truth.

[Geek_Girl]

64. Innocent or Not MJ is a dumb ass

He got in trouble with this crap before and still allowed himself to fall in this trap again. If he's innocent he's a complete dumb ass and I have no sympathy for that kind of stupidity. If he loves children so much then he should sell off his mini amusement park and donate the proceeds to helping children in third world countries. If he sold off the Beatles catalog think about how much good in the world that could do. But no he's has to have children sleep in his bed an then spend gobs of money to get himself out this shit. Sorry I have absolutely no sympathy for him.

[mondo joe]

67. Yes - repeating the same behavior proves what poor judgment he has.

Notice how his "love" of children amounts to using them for HIS gratification.

[ElectroPrincess]

76. Most important ...

Please notice that the super-focus of the ENTIRE USA corporate media to the detriment of all other truly important news stories (ones that will directly effect the average John Q. Public), keep the masses entertained but does little to nothing to enhance awareness of current events.

The Fox News network has at least turned a page and is now "all over" (24/7) on the Missing 18 y.o. in Aruba. I can only guess that the other networks don't get that memo until tomorrow? Sad - almost tragic that we get NO valid news from Iraq or Afghanistan. :banghead: :cry:

[walldude]

105. Well we did hear from Fox today

that Osama is living in Iran :eyes:

As far as Jackson is concerned I'm not going to convict the guy on what I've heard from the media. 12 people found him not guilty. If he's guilty then they should have built a better case, if not then justice was served. At immense cost to the taxpayers. Lets hope that no more parents are stupid enough(or greedy enough) to involve their children with him. I seem to remember that the family had a history of sueing celebrities... If you ask me the parents should have been on trial along with MJ...

[MoonRiver]

117. I have no sympathy either.

And he was never trapped. He solicits young boys to sleep with. Sadly, there are some sick parents who probably pimped their kids out to him. That doesn't make him innocent of molestation. It just makes the parents complicit. The kids ARE innocent and should have been vindicated. Jmho, and no I wasn't in the courtroom. Maybe the evidence in this particular case was weak, maybe something shady went down, but, whatever, I still believe he's a warped pedophile pervert.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

128. 128 posts on this crap?

Well, I guess I'm 129, so I'll shut my sad mouth...

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

143. I think this might be number 143 .

Ummm there is still a war going on . I guess everyone has forgotten . So sad . Oh so sad .

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

149. if only o'reilly's sex allegations got similar coverage

but it's ok to settle out of court and act lie nothing happened if you're a wingnut

thank yew lib'rul media!