Caucasians, not Middle Easterners, planted London bombs?!

[KnaveRupe]

WTF?!

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article298105.ece

"Police and intelligence agents are investigating the theory that a gang of white "mercenary terrorists" was hired by al-Qa'ida to carry out last week's devastating attacks on London."

Hmmmm. Now isn't THAT interesting. I guess there must be video of non-arabs planting the explosives, so they're scrambling to "fix the facts to fit the policy." I mean, I guess if I had indications that the London bombs were placed by caucasians, I'd immediately think IRA, not "white mercenary terrorists working for al-Qa'ida". Y'know, Occam's razor and all that. Hell, I'd even buy CIA before "white mercenary terrorists working for al-Qa'ida", tinfoily as THAT sounds...

Somebody's going to an awful stretch to keep the world focussed on "Islamist Terrorism"...

[Maple]

1. Anarchists

The Black Bloc swore they'd disrupt the G8 this time

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Not a chance in hell

Black bloc would definitely, definitely NOT do anything of the sort. Period. You have to distinguish between damage to things and violence against people. Black bloc specializes in the former, and generally abhors the latter except in self-defense. That's just history and precedent. No fucking way any Black bloc anarchists would engage in something like this.

[Maple]

26. Of course they would

and they are very big on damage to people.

These are not nice groups.

Don't confuse them with peaceful protestors, because they aren't even close.

[Warren Stupidity]

40. so put the list of anarchist bombings intended to max casualties

in the last ten years right here:

________________


thought not.

[Maple]

43. Pardon me?

The Black Bloc has been known for it's violence for years...famous for it. People were appalled over Genoa.

They usually get whacked for it though, and rightly so.

This time they swore they'd disrupt the G8 for sure...and this thread is about a group of in-country whites doing the London bombing...not ol' Al Qaeda after all.

So let's not be claiming the anarchists are any choir boys, and must automatically be ruled out.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. You are not pardoned

Your claim is that bombing with intention to cause maximum loss of life is typical of black bloc. Put up or shut up. Back up your assertion. Street riots are not subway bombings. At least blame the IRA or ETA or some group that actually has done something remotely similar.

[Maple]

56. Kindly pay attention

I said the Black Bloc was known for their violence and they are.

These are not legitimate protestors.

You might try googling these things instead of defending something you know nothing about.

"Anarchists have often been portrayed as dangerous and violent, due mainly to a number of high-profile violent acts including riots, assassinations, and insurrections involving anarchists. The use of terrorism and assassination, however, is condemned by most anarchist ideology, though there remains no consensus on the legitimacy or utility of violence.

Some anarchists share Leo Tolstoy's Christian anarchist belief in nonviolence. These anarcho-pacifists advocate nonviolent resistance as the only method of achieving a truly anarchist revolution. They often see violence as the basis of government and coercion and argue that, as such, violence is illegitimate, no matter who is the target. Some of Proudhon's French followers even saw strike action as coercive and refused to take part in such traditional socialist tactics.

Mikhail Bakunin and Errico Malatesta saw violence as a necessary and sometimes desirable force. Malatesta took the view that it is "necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies to the workers" (Umanità Nova, number 125, September 6, 1921<8>).

Between 1894 and 1901, individual anarchists assassinated numerous heads of state. Such "propaganda of the deed" was not popular among anarchists, and many in the movement condemned the tactic. For example, McKinley's assassin, Leon Czolgosz, claimed to be a disciple of Emma Goldman, but she disavowed any association with him.

Depictions in the press and popular fiction helped create a lasting public impression that anarchists are violent terrorists. This perception was enhanced by events such as the Haymarket Riot, where anarchists were blamed for throwing a bomb at police who came to break up a public meeting in Chicago, Illinois.

Some anarcho-socialists distinguish between "violence" and "property destruction": they claim that violence is when a person inflicts harm to another person, while property destruction or property damage is not violence, although it can have indirect harm such as financial harm."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism#Violence_and_non-violence

[Warren Stupidity]

59. I always say

when you find yourself deep in a hole, get out the shovel and start digging.

Get back to me with that list of black bloc bombings would ya?

[Maple]

62. I'm sorry

but your attempted diversion doesn't work.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. So you left out the list.

Most have been a typo. Put that list of black bloc bombings right here so I can apologize for being so stupid.

[alcibiades_mystery]

67. LOL: Anarchist bombings from the late 19th and early 20th century

Lucky you're keeping current with your research! :rofl:

Next thing ya know, we'll be learning that Saco and Venzetti smashed Starbuck windows in Seattle. Get your historical period straight before you ask others to pay attention. It's embarrassing. For you.

[SweetLeftFoot]

149. Ahem

The Provos are on ceasefire and even when they were active, concentrated only on economic targets using massive truck bombs with warning times in the last few years. They haven't directly targeted civilians in London since the 70s. While I don't think it was Black Block, I think they are more likely than the IRA.

[alcibiades_mystery]

63. Laughable

You still refuse to name a case of uninstigated violence by any Black Bloc group, much less a case of arbitrary bombing of civilians. The violence in Genoa, as even the Italian law enforcement seems to believe, was mostly instigated by roving groups of neo-nazis and other suchlike thugs aiming to fight with protesters of all stripes. There was also a great deal of violence set off by undercover and uniformed law enforcement. Your lack of specificity, however, is telling. You have no clue, apparently.

[Maple]

73. Whack em and stack em

I'm sorry, but the Black Bloc should be behind bars.

They are a terrorist group.

Apparently everyone but you two knows this.

[alcibiades_mystery]

77. Unable to show any concrete evidence of arbitrary violence

You hide behind repetition. Sad display, Maple.

[Sterling]

80. terrorist group.?

Maybe a pack of hooligan douchbags but you give them way too much credit to put them in the mix with the London bombing don't you think?

[Warren Stupidity]

81. I frequently find

that if my foot happens to be in my mouth it is best to start in on the leg, that way nobody notices the foot :-)

[Matariki]

89. This is kind of emotional opinion

you really could back up your statements.

not that i like to get involved in these sorts of arguments but i heard both sides of this 'debate' in Seattle during WTO. Those guys were out smashing windows at the GAP but *hardly* bombing public transportation or killing people for crying out loud.

Give *ONE* example where they have?

[JackRiddler]

101. The real black bloc at Genoa

Were the Italian federal police, who dressed up as black bloc, attacked the protestors as well as the police, and rejoined their colleagues. This was actually filmed from a helicopter by the local police, who were angered by these agent provocateurs who were responsible for setting off the riots.

I watched this footage on German state television, in a documentary about the riots in Genoa and how they were caused by the Berlusconi regime. The coppers were in a true frenzy as they beat people at random, and then returned to their uniformed colleagues.

There's plenty of info out there on the Web. So please, read up before you spew.

No genuine anarchist attack ever targeted civilians. (Next you'll tell us how the Haymarket Eight deserved execution.)

[d_b]

147. I havn't laughed like that in a long time.

keep up the good work!

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. You have no idea what you're talking about

But keep on believing your bullshit.

[Maple]

45. Do you have the culprits?

Do you know who they are?

Because the London police don't.

So kindly stop ruling out obvious suspects just because you don't like the idea.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. oh heck you're an obvious suspect

do you have the culprits?
do you know who they are?
The London police don't.
So kindly stop ruling yourself out because you don't like the idea.

sheesh.

[Maple]

60. I like your

handle. Obviously you know yourself well.

[Warren Stupidity]

64. Put that list of black bloc bombings right here.

Back up your assertions. Go ahead. Make me look stupid. Prove me wrong and I will apologize. Will you?

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. They are not obvious suspects, except in your imagination

Law enforcement types will tell you straightway: Black bloc anarchists are a monumental pain in the ass, but they would never pull anything like this. Your idea is silly, and contrary to all experience we have with these people. They smash windows. They dress up in stupid football helmets and fight with riot cops. they do not, have not, and would not bomb a train full of civilians. That's the precedent, and you're just plain old wrong. You don't like the Black Bloc folks because you think they discredit "peaceful protesters." But you are unable to gauge degree or specificity of their activities. Apparently, if they're not "peaceful" on your model, they therefore bomb trains. That's just dumb.

[Maple]

65. I'm sorry

but your attempted diversion doesn't work.

The Black Bloc are a violent group, and as far as I'm concerned the police can 'whack em and stack em' anytime

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. You keep saying it, and not showing it

Your fiction wouldn't even work in fiction class.

Laughable.

[Warren Stupidity]

70. Do they get to be charged with a crime first?

Or just straight to gitmo?

[Maple]

76. Whack em and stack em

Your ignorance of terrorist groups is not my problem.

On the other hand, it's possible there's a reason you defend them and their tactics.

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. Pathetic

You have no evidence, though you went around searching for it.

Measly.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. So I take it that would be a big 'yes'.

By the way were you going to provide that list of black bloc bombings so that I can apologize?

[Bouncy Ball]

82. I have to say.

I don't know much about this topic, but reading along in this sub-thread, I'm wondering why you, Maple, won't provide a list of bombings by anarchists groups as these other posters request. It seems a simple request, and if they have done such things in the recent past, it seems it would be easy enough to find some links.

Thanks,
A totally impartial reader.

[Sterling]

84. Same here.

I could give a rats flying ass about the Black Bloc but to call them terrorists seems lacking in proportion. Going out of your way to argue it seems really sad, especially when you can't even find a reference to support it.

[Bouncy Ball]

85. Yep.

No dog in this fight for me, I'd never even heard of the Black Bloc before this thread, I was just curious why no list of bombings.

Edit: I found this link with information about Black Blocs. Apparently they are not so much organizations as a tactic.

And just from what I can tell from the reading I've done so far, the bombings in London don't seem up a black bloc's alley.

[Swamp Rat]

137. DITTO!!!

[Sterling]

83. 'whack em and stack em' ?

You seem to really like to type those words a lot. What do you mean anyway. And why don't you mix it up a bit. It sounds like you just learned a cool new phrase and are just looking for the chance to use it.

[Maple]

164. My term

so don't go blaming anyone else for it. :D

[Freedomfried]

104. Anarchists do NOT add to govermental empowerment

And the London attacks in this case, at this time will empower the government.

[baby_mouse]

240. Do you have them?

Because nobdoy else has.

Kindly stop randomly swinging your jaws around, your saliva's clogging up everybody's screens.

[baby_mouse]

238. You are talking utter bullshit

Back this up.

[Maple]

274. er...go back to step one

and read the article.

Continue the thread from there.

Eventually you'll catch up to the rest of us

[alittlelark]

71. Anarchist would be quite willing to accept responsibility...

methinks there is a vid. that shows that which we are not to know.

[hexola]

88. Are there really "anarchists"? or is that just what the media calls...

the G8 protesters...?

[Selatius]

122. Anarchism as an ideology can be called Libertarian Socialism

It is anarchist in that it advocates solutions outside the purview of any state entity, since, they argue, the state is a force of coercion at best, force and terror at worst. By nature, some call it "voluntary socialism." If a person does not want to participate, then they are free to leave and not be imposed upon and forced to take part.

However, the term "anarchist" has been sullied, especially by "propaganda by deed" like the McKinley assasination. In the US, the term "libertarian" has also been hijacked by rightwing groups, specifically the right-leaning Libertarian Party, but in other parts of the world, the term "libertarian" is more often associated with libertarian socialists or anarcho-socialists.

[Maple]

125. Sorry, any 'list' is your red herring

and it's not going to work. :D

The Black Bloc is a violent anarchist group that guaranteed they would derail the G8 talks this time.

They've tried before and failed.

This time they may well have succeeded.

Not my problem if you want to drag tangents into a straight-forward discussion.

I just don't intend to be diverted.

Anarchists...whack em and stack em. :thumbsup:

They are terrorists.

Deal with it.

[ConsAreLiars]

129. You have no facts to back up your beliefs. That's a common problem.

I'm sure there are faith-based message boards where that attitude would fit in quite well, but one of the unique strengths of DU is that most who post here like to see evidence. OK, you don't have any and you want to keep believing as you do. So be it. But don't expect simpleminded smears against some group or other to be accepted here, just based on your good word. You diminish the value of your words when you simply regurgitate right wing rhetoric.

[Maple]

130. Sorry, still a red herring

And Google is your friend.

[ConsAreLiars]

146. Well, I googled

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Black+Bloc+is+a+violent+anarchist+group+that+guaranteed+they+would+derail+the+G8+talks+this+time.

Nothing there seems even remotely to support your accusations. Surely you can get at least a fraction of an inch beyond "believe me because I say so" in the way of evidence. Just one credible source. Your hatred is clear, but so far it seems completely irrational -- no basis in reality. I guess I'll have to conclude your belief system has no basis in reality or evidence to support it, and that it comes from some other source.

[Maple]

148. Nah ya didn't

Don't be trying to pull the wool over my eyes, because I'm a sheep shearer from way back

If I can find it, so can you.

Perhaps if you gave up the personal attacks and just looked, instead of talking about looking?

[ConsAreLiars]

158. Look at the url I cited - nothing there

but a few blogs. I fear you might have acquired more from those sheep than you suspect, maybe a whole world view.

[Maple]

160. Then try a better search term

honestly...you have to tell the defenders of mindless violence everything!

[ConsAreLiars]

167. "defenders of mindless violence"

isn't that a bit of a stretch even for faith-based, fact-challenged hatemongers?

[Maple]

169. Yup...the Black Bloc

Fighting against MacDonalds Restaurants everywhere. :D

And honey, I'm an atheist.

[ConsAreLiars]

176. You think this was an attack on McDonalds?

Now that goes beyond strange. Goes to show that even self-proclaimed atheists can be non-rational.

[Maple]

180. Are you paying attention at all?

Or just throwing in posts at random?

[ConsAreLiars]

185. Well. I was looking for facts. Apparently you have none so I will have

to inquire of others who share your faith. I'm sure there are others, but I don't spend much time among them. If Ashcroft or the ghost of Joe McCarthy ever show up looking for a conversation, I'll ask them for the evidence you seem so reluctant to reveal. They might be more forthcoming and candid.

[Maple]

186. No you weren't

You are trying to keep that ol red herring alive.

And I'm sorry but it is simply a dead fish.

Try again. Even slot machines get lucky sometimes

[ConsAreLiars]

204. Oh come on, just one fact, please. Don't be such a tease.

Surely you have one somewhere, or are your beliefs and claims completely devoid of facts?

[Maple]

209. SMOOCH !

Do yer own dirty work. Sorry. :shrug:

[ConsAreLiars]

217. So, now we know how you get off ,

but we still don't get to see your facts, if any. Odd, to put the kindest interpretation on it.

(edit typo)

[Maple]

221. Sorry, but 'getting off' isn't the question here

And if you want facts, check the article that began this thread, and forget the sex crap.

[ConsAreLiars]

244. Not for me.

And there are no facts in the original article that have any relevance to your bizarre accusations. And, more to this point, none in anything at all you have posted. I can only assume that you have no facts to support your accusations, and that this is quite OK with you. If the facts don't matter to you, then I can only assume that it is because your true-believer mentality does not need them. Give my best to your handlers.

[Maple]

247. Read the article

They are looking for a white group.

Could be any white group...but somehow I don't suspect Rotarians.

Do you?

[Selatius]

131. Well, generally speaking, I disagree with Black Bloc tactics

If I were to ally myself to any within the school of Libertarian Socialism, I'd ally myself with those that advocate non-violent resistance such as tactics used by Gandhi and MLK. Only violent resistance is advocated in cases of self-defense/preservation of family. There is a point with me where violence is advocated but only after absolutely all peaceful remedies have been exhausted.

With the Genoa summit you brought up, there is clear and convincing evidence the bulk of the violence was caused not by Black Blockers but by provocateurs sent in by the Berlusconi regime as well as gangs of Neo-Nazis looking to pick a fight with trade unionists and democratic socialists. The same phenomenon was witnessed with the FTAA meetings down in, I believe, Miami where the police sent in provocateurs to make the excuse for the riot police to come in.

I wasn't generally addressing Black Blockers as much as I was addressing Libertarian Socialism as a whole school of though in response to the person's question. You were the first person who mentioned Black Blockers in this exchange.

[LeftyMom]

139. If you won't provide the aforementioned list

Could you please provide a legit link for this: "The Black Bloc is a violent anarchist group that guaranteed they would derail the G8 talks this time."

Then explain how your "whack 'em and stack 'em" solution for the percieved anarchist problem is consistent with the law. Provide historical examples of it's effectiveness and the authorities' ability to limit this campaign to true anarchists and not expand it to any other groups percieved as undesirable.

Then kindly explain how abandoning due process in favor of "whack 'em and stack 'em" is consistent with liberal ideology.

Many thanks,
-LM

[Maple]

141. Try Google

What did your last slave die of?

And when did you begin confusing me with your next slave?

[LeftyMom]

143. I'm asking you to back up your argument

It you have no desire to do so, please state that.

I certainly have no desire to Google evidence for all *your* arguments, (I have my hands full backing up my own assertions, thankyouverymuch) because I don't think I'd come up with much. Your post confirms my suspicion.

Have a lovely night.

[Maple]

145. I'm not making one hon

I'm agreeing with the article at the top of this thread.

White folk.... probably anarchists.

Calling themselves the Black Bloc. Their statements about violence are everywhere.

If you don't like the idea, it's not my problem

Talk to the people who reported what the police are investigating

I'm already having a lovely night thanks.

[Matariki]

162. drinking?

just asking.

[Maple]

166. Nooop sorry

Did you really think it would be that easy to slough off mindless violence as nothing more than a 60s protest? :D

[Matariki]

177. um, don't get the connection

you're really not making much sense in any of your posts except that you *really* don't like the 'black bloc' anarchists.

when did you develop this obsession with them?

maybe you dated one and got jilted? that's as likely as any of the reasons you've given so far, which have been zero.

[Maple]

183. I know you don't

Gosh...I dunno when the obsession developed. :think:

Hmmmm.....Maybe it was when they announced they were for a society without government...'because we didn't need government'....which was right before they went on a rampage smashing everything in sight.

The New World Order doesn't require police to keep wackos in check apparently! :shrug:

Or maybe it was when they showed up at every kind of world meeting with crowbars, gallons of vegetable oil for causing highway accidents, axes, and even catapults with ball bearings.

Nice crowd.

Whack em and stack em

[baby_mouse]

242. Anarchists does not = terrorist

And you are very, very stupid.

[Maple]

249. Black Bloc = Terrorists

Live with it.

[not systems]

260. Wrong...

it is an ineffective but photogenic protest method practiced by anarchists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism


The terms "anarchy" and "anarchism" are derived from the Greek αναρχία ("without archons (rulers)"). Thus "anarchism," in its most general meaning, is the belief that the State is an unnecessary evil and should be abolished. The word "anarchy", as most anarchists use it, does not imply chaos or anomie, but rather a stateless society with voluntary social harmony.

An advocacy of voluntary human interaction and opposition to the State are the unvarying principles of anarchism. However, disputes arise over what type of interaction is actually voluntary, over which school of anarchism promises the most freedom, as well as over which philosophies are, or are not, forms of anarchism. Contentious issues also include the role of violence in changing society, the preferred type of economic system, whether hierarchy and unequal social status are natural voluntary social forms or authoritarian, the interpretation of egalitarian ideals, the degree of organization desirable to effect social change, the importance of individual incentives, and whether extending the division of labour is desirable. Because the types of anarchism vary so greatly, anarchism cannot be considered an ideology in itself, but a rubric under which a number of philosophies can be classified given that they all oppose the existence of states and favor what they regard to be voluntary human interaction.

...

[Maple]

265. RIGHT.

BLACK BLOC = TERRORISM

Dicker about the 'philosophy' all night if you like.

Baton upside the head at a demonstration though.

And I'll cheer.

[not systems]

268. Your brown shirt is showing.

:eyes:

[Maple]

270. Actually I prefer black

and just think...I'm not even from that terrorist outfit, the Black Bloc.

[baby_mouse]

261. Why are you so keen to establish this equivalancy?

And why are you so *completely* incapable of bring anything to the discussion backing it up?

[Maple]

267. I didn't . The Black Bloc did

As far as I'm concerned they can go fuck themselves.

[Renew Deal]

151. Not saying no

but I doubt it. This is extreme for them.

[Maple]

161. Nothing is extreme

for Black Bloc types

It's all part of the 'class war' doncha know.

[not systems]

174. Your clue has left the building.

In fact it was seen pan handling for food.

This has to be some of the most fanciful crap
I have every seen about the "Black Bloc".

General dressing in black is about the speed
for most "Black Bloc" types and that you would
believe them capable of this is a real hoot.

Can you give some links to your "informational" sources?

I would like to know what planet is marketing what you have imbibed.

[Maple]

178. 'Black Bloc for Dummies'

Google it. You appear to need it.

[not systems]

182. From first hand experience I can say you are ...

full of it.

I have seen the "Black Bloc" in action for decades and
you google based fantasies are just that fantasies.

Your Abu ghraib fetish "whack em and stack em" quote is
very tasteless and possibly the sign of a torturer fantasist.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[not systems]

187. I suspect the key...

to your obsession with unsubstantiated distortion and
fantasy about the "Black Bloc" may be found in your
last post.

:rofl:

[Maple]

188. You suspect nothing

You just like defending some long dead class war, and mindless violence against the 'establishment'.

And you confuse that with 'cute' for your own bizarre reasons. :shrug:

[not systems]

191. Maybe...

but that is a far cry from the incredible flights
of fancy that you have taken in this thread.

The only substantial violence I have every heard
attributed to the "Block Bloc" has been burning SUV's,
spiking trees and smashing a starbucks window several
years ago and other similar actions.

The first were attributed to ELF who are associated
with the "Black Bloc" by many.

Can you please share some of your valuable and hard earned
informational sources that lead you to believing they could
possible be involved with a terrorist attack on people on
the scale of 7/7 because I just don't see any evidence of that.

You claim deep insights, so share your wisdom, O great whacker stacker.

[Maple]

194. And maybe you just like wasting everyones time

and bandwidth on a lot of silliness. :D

Because now you've confused the international Black Bloc with some local idiot American environmental group, and the two haven't even been introduced, much less connected.

The only one confusing ELF with the Black Bloc is you.

And again...it's yer argument...not mine. So don't expect me to do your work for you.

Play games all you want. The UK police are still now looking for a white group. NOT Al Qaeda. Sorry

[Matariki]

206. the article says gang of white mercenaries HIRED by al-Qa'ida

that's quite a leap of (il)logic to get to black bloc anarchists. but i suspect you're just having some fun. argumentative for augmentative's sake? and you got to repeat that goofy phrase, how many times?


"Police and intelligence agents are investigating the theory that a gang of white "mercenary terrorists" was hired by al-Qa'ida to carry out last week's devastating attacks on London."

[Maple]

211. It says that's the new line of inquiry

WHITE PEOPLE. IN A GANG.

AVAILABLE FOR HIRE.

You can figure it out from there.

Maybe the Black Bloc is stupid enough to work for free.

Goodness knows, stupidity is their hallmark.

[Renew Deal]

215. Maybe it was Skinheads

or fans of British soccer teams. They are white, hang out in groups and known for violence. Or wait, maybe it's monks. They are mysterious and defend their monasteries with lethal force if necessary. Lethal force is violent right? It must be them. :shrug:

Look it up!!!

[Maple]

239. Maybe it's nuns

They wear black, live in groups, believe the same ideology...and it's a habit with them.

[not systems]

251. Keep your "habit" fantasies out of this...

:shrug:

[Maple]

252. LOLOLOL

No really....LOLOLOL

[Renew Deal]

212. Ideologically anarchists wouldn't work for Al Queda

Why? Because Al Queda is the ultimate right wing type group. Religious totalitarian. That doesn't jive politically with Anarchy.

[Maple]

214. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

No seriously....BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

[Renew Deal]

218. So that's you're only argument?

I have completely dressed you down and it took me fewer posts than most here.

[not systems]

220. What so funny?

It seemed a valid point.

[Maple]

223. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Lose many debates in high school didja?

'dressed you down???????'

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Matariki]

226. you call this a debate!?

this is nothing but late night ANARCHY. i think you're an anarchist Maple.

[Renew Deal]

229. "this is nothing but late night ANARCHY"

Good point

[Maple]

231. LOL no, a rout

by moi. :D

[baby_mouse]

253. Er...no...

Unless by "rout" you mean posting a large number of posts on a subject about which you know nothing to try get as much attention as possible without ever actually saying anything. In which case, yes, you have succeeded.

[Maple]

255. Er...yes

Now go hide like a good little mouse.

Cats are out, and yowling as usual...over nothing.

Don't imitate your betters...it makes you look bad.

[baby_mouse]

258. Why are you concerned with my image?

And where is this better of whom you speak that I am imitating?

[Maple]

259. I'm not

but really...mice shouldn't pretend to be cats.

Sooner or later, someone will call your bluff.

[baby_mouse]

264. Ah, well

Mouse is my name *here*, dear...

And ignorant people shouldn't pretend to know things

[Maple]

269. I agree

why do you do that anyway??

[not systems]

230. When a naked man is jumping around screaming that...

his clothing is wonderful.

He can only be "dress down" so much before things get snipped off.

Whack em and stack em.

[Maple]

233. Naked men hmmm?

well it IS late...and it IS your fantasy.

I prefer facts...but you and your libido can carry on in privacy ...if you don't mind. :blush:

[Renew Deal]

237. Hey, where's Jeff Gannon

[Maple]

241. WHOOOOO HOOOOOOOO

[baby_mouse]

246. Have you anything to say?

Hmmmmm...

Cold stare

Hmmm...

[Maple]

250. Cat's coming honey

And he's 'hongry'

Run. Hide.

[baby_mouse]

256. I see

Foolish of me

[Maple]

257. Yes, daring though

You can congratulate yourself while nibbling your cheese

[baby_mouse]

262. And you can congratulate yourself

On having wasted several minutes of my time

[Maple]

271. Waste a few more

Look it up, and find out what we've been discussing.

[not systems]

210. From your "Black Bloc for Dummies" faq...

http://www.infoshop.org/blackbloc_faq.html

Wasn't the black bloc at the 2001 G8 protests in Genoa, Italy, organized by the police?

Anarchists from around the world organized and participated in black blocs at the 2001 G8 protests in Genoa, Italy. However, the Italian police also organized a fake black bloc using undercover police officers and neo-fascists from around Europe. These fake black blocs attacked other protesters, set cars on fire, and vandalized small businesses. It is suspected that the police organized these fake blocs to drive a wedge between moderate and militant protesters. Another goal may have been to demonize anarchists as "terrorists" in the eyes of the general public.



It worked with you. I still have never seen any
information supporting your allegations about violence
since you will not post your catalog of Black Bloc
terrorism. I can only conclude that you don't have
anything to back up your statements.

I was fishing to figure out what you might be talking about
but still I don't have any idea what you are basing your
fanciful theories on.

Your like Tail Gunner Joe with his secret list.

[Maple]

213. Yup, read it ages ago

It also says each group is on their own...as to ummm gosh, violence and stuff. Cough.

But heavens no, the Black Bloc isn't VIOLENT....why it's just all those nasty policeman types saying that. COUGH!

IN SPITE OF INTERNATIONAL TELEVISION COVERAGE

Jaysus man, get a clue

[Renew Deal]

227. This argument has not been on whether Black Bloc is violent.

It is about whether Black Bloc is bombing anything. You haven't posted a shred of evidence that they are capable of that, even though you claim "it's on the internet. Look it up."

[Maple]

236. No, we already know they're violent

Actually anyone who has ever paid any attention whatever to news, knows that.

[Renew Deal]

197. You're the one making accusations.

I don't think most of us are defending Anarchists, anarchy or any anarchy ideology. I think most are just saying that it's not their style. I would have to agree with that.

[Maple]

200. Mmmm no, I think the police are

the ones looking into it.

I'm just agreeing with them.

As to 'style' I'd have to say that few on here 'appear' to know anything about it. :D

The Black Bloc is infamous around the world.

[Renew Deal]

201. "I'd have to say that few on here 'appear' to know anything about it."

You being one of them.

[Maple]

203. Mmmm no. Members of the Black Bloc would be that

Ummm 'innocent' and all

[Renew Deal]

195. The only thing I find about Black bloc and bombing is anti-war protests

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22black+bloc%22+%2B+bombing

Look it up

[Maple]

196. Still don't know how to use Google eh?

Well...that's your problem, not mine

Here's a hint though. Expand your search terms.

[Renew Deal]

199. I have an idea

Prove your point. So far, you haven't proved anything. Post one google link proving your point. Just 1. There's an old saying that applies to your posts. There's a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

[Maple]

202. Well that's a step forward

Now how be you do your own work?

'Sound and fury signifying nothing'...yeah that would be the Black Bloc

[Renew Deal]

205. I have nothing to prove.

You are the one who has to prove that Black Bloc or any anarchist group has bombed anything in the last 25 years (longer if it makes you feel good). You are not arguing in good faith.

[Maple]

219. Neither do I

Article says it all.

You know, that article that began this thread that you've forgotten all about in your efforts to justify your 'class struggle' involves violence crap?

'NOT ARGUING IN GOOD FAITH??????'

WTF does that mean???? :D

[Renew Deal]

222. Yes you do.

Where does it say that anarchists caused the bombings and/or are suspects? That would prove something. Where have I said anything about "class struggle" and the sort?

Not arguing in good faith. It means that an argument can be had by two or more people if both people are reasonable. You would be reasonable if you could backup anything you have said, but you haven't. You are arguing either for the sake of arguing or to disrupt. Either way, you are not arguing in good faith.

[Maple]

224. I didn't bring 'class struggle' into it

YOU did.

The article says a white mercenary group.

I suggested anarchists...in particular the Black Bloc.

A group that openly threatened the G8...over years in fact.

Nothing you have said has changed that.

Your 'faith' is your look-out, not mine

[Renew Deal]

232. Show me where I introduced class struggle into this?

I'll be waiting.

[Maple]

245. Wait all you want

Black Bloc is into 'class struggle'

You are the 1930's socialist still waiting for 'come the revolution'

[Renew Deal]

248. lol

Once again, you make an assertion you can't prove. And where did you come up with me being a 1930's socialist?

[Maple]

254. It's YOUR philosophy

Not mine. YOU explain it

[not systems]

216. That is exactly the point... 'Sound and fury signifying nothing'...

yet you think that the "Black Bloc" makes up an international
terrorist threat instead of a small generally peaceful
and insignificant protest group against the criminality of
business and government.

Which is what I have witnessed them to be.

No google involved.

[Maple]

228. Yup...that's what you are

Because if you are arguing that the Black Bloc is some minor little innocent group, you are either incredibly naive, unable to use google, or a member

PS...the part about 'the criminality of business and government' kinda gives you away.

Get real.

[Renew Deal]

234. Please o' master of Google.

Use your skills to enlighten us. Just 1 link would suffice.

[not systems]

243. From your faq again...

http://www.infoshop.org/blackbloc_faq.html

Is the black bloc an organization?

The black bloc is a TACTIC, not a group or organization. Just like there cannot by the "Civil Disobedience Group," neither can the black bloc be an organization. Some people are under the mistaken impression that one can join the "black bloc organization." There is no standing black bloc organization between protests. There is the anarchist movement which always exists (and has been around for over a century). You can think of the black bloc as just a temporary collection of anarchists that represent a contingent in a protest march. The black bloc is a tactic, similar to civil disobedience.



Yet you accuse me of being a "member" your reading skills need some
polishing or maybe it is just the retaining information part that is hard for you.

[Maple]

263. MY FAQ???

I didn't post it dear, you did.

You figure it out.

The Black Bloc isn't MY group, so I don't have to explain their nonsensical Sgt Shultz 'defense'. :D

[not systems]

266. correction!

The faq that you claimed to have read on the only
truly searchable shred of information given out in
you whole lengthy parade of ignorance and slander.

[Maple]

272. I read it....I didn't post it

because it's the usual 'who me?' shit.

There is tons of stuff on the Black Bloc.

Please don't announce that you missed it?

I'd be embarrassed for you. :blush:

[Renew Deal]

193. I am not sure what you're point is.

I would have to say you're wrong about nothing being extreme. Sorry, but coordinated (or uncoordinated) bombings are not their style. They don't behave this way. That makes it uncharacteristic and/or extreme.

[Maple]

198. I guess you've never

paid attention to the Black Bloc before this eh?

Or you'd know better than to make such bizarre statements.

[Renew Deal]

208. Still waiting for you to prove your point.

If you can't prove it, what's the point of arguing. I can prove that Black Bloc has worked on anti-war protests, sometimes using violence. Can you prove that they have ever bombed anything?

[Maple]

273. Er...go back to step one

and read the article.

I'm sure that eventually you'll catch on

I hope.

[glitch]

2. Holey moley. If true this one is unraveling in record time. nt

[jsamuel]

52. They have video tapes and witnesses, unlike 9/11

[Roland99]

3. Weren't there US citizens found working w/insurgents in Iraq?

[The Magistrate]

10. There Were, Sir

But they were citizens of Near Eastern heritage, that most people would have said "There's an Arab" to see on the street.

[geek tragedy]

4. It's a theory, of course. One that very well may not be true.

I'd bet skinheads before white mercenaries.

[Oversea Visitor]

31. I see a star now with you name

:hug:

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SweetLeftFoot]

152. Or

Bosnian Muslims. Or people who converted in jail ... not that much of strech.

[More Than A Feeling]

5. Like Spain in reverse

There, the government blamed the homegrown terrorists, when it was al quaeda.

[Maple]

8. Was it?

Are you sure?

It's been put down to that, but there was little evidence of any such link...except that 'devout Muslims' are amazingly careless about where they leave copies of the Koran

[uppityperson]

6. If they were white, they gotta be hired by al Qaeda, right?

I mean, no white people would want to bomb anyone, would they? :sarcasm:

[aquart]

11. Hey, Kos! How's reality looking?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[screembloodymurder]

18. Speculation, conspiracy theory, news report

it's all the same fucking thing man. Truth is the first casualty of war.

[leesa]

23. No shit, eh? Why do we always have to play along with the Neocon

propaganda? And since we know the website links of the group claiming responsibility come from Maryland and Texas, how could one POSSIBLY believe the Neocons were involved in any way??!?

[Geek_Girl]

37. do you have al ink that gives the url

to your info. I'm not doubting I'm just curious.

[Tace]

112. He, He -- Amazingly Self-Destructive

[jazzjunkysue]

20. Nah. Everyone knows white people only bomb churches, silly.

Geez. :spank:

[bvar22]

92. AND Family Planning Clinics.

*

[Tace]

113. And Federal Buildings In Oklahoma

: (

[The Magistrate]

7. It Is Theory Worth Investigating, Sir

It is not a particularly likely theory, but it is certainly an avenue worth exploring: being confined to operatives of a readily identifiable ethnicity is a long-term difficulty for an organization that wishes global reach.

The mere statement of a theory's being explored, of course, is a far cry from any lisence to claim it is in fact what occured. The "fixing" of "facts" to policy is not a vice indulged in only by governments and ractionaries....

[H2O Man]

16. Always possible

that there could be white people who are Islamic. Not that I would put much faith in the report on the OP. But unlike modern Christianity, Islam does not tend to be a segregated religion. One might even recall Malcolm X's visit to Mecca, where he saw black, brown, yellow, and white Muslims worshipping, side by side.

[The Magistrate]

22. There Are Indeed, Sir

There are a variety of literally Caucasian types in West Asia; in the Rif Mountains of Morocco, many people seemed to me on my travels there indistiguishable in appearance from Central Europeans, once allowance was made for differing dress. There are also converts, of course. But so far, the operatives have been from Arabian countries almost exclusively, and this is one thing that can be taken as indicating some truth to the argument this jihadism is really not so much a religious as a nationalist effort. It is hard to know what value to put on this report, for it is clearly speculation, and honestly treated as such by The Independent. My usual inclination is to put little weight to such things.

[H2O Man]

32. Fantastic speculation

usually turns out to be nonsense. Not always, of course, so it's good to keep an open mind.

My 2nd cousin visited me yesterday. His older brother is retiring from special forces, after spending many years in southeast Asia. He said it is a "simmering pot about to boil over." I suspect that we will see the conflict between Islam and the non-Islamic countries in that area grow more violent in time. As I'm sure you would appreciate more than the average American who has not traveled, Islam has long since ceased being limited to the Middle East and Arabic peoples.

[The Magistrate]

47. Certainly, Sir

My comment related only to those operations conducted directly against the West.

One of the things most greatly overlooked in assessing this whole thing is the great weight of militanmt focus on the east. Kashmir looms in many ways even larger the palestine, though not many people here have heard of it. From a Moslem point of view, the history of the last several centuries has been the history of the roll back of the Islamic power from the aeas it conquered in the previosu millenia, and in the east, this has been a much more decisive phenomenon.

Matters are, of course, somewhat different in Southeast Asia, including Indonesia, for there there was no element of conquest involved at all. Islam there, from the days of Dutch empire and Spanish empire, has had a certain element of rallying resistance to colonial rule, expressed as religious defiance.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

100. There are other theories that would account for Caucasians being the

bombers. Who are these Caucasians anyway, hmmm....

[SpiralHawk]

9. Hmmm? Could the mercenaries have been the infamous Skull & Boner sect?

they bankrolled the Nazis in the person of Grandpappy Bush, so we know they are capable of going very low.

[Tace]

115. Why Do I Understand What You're Talking About?

Because you are making sense! Cheers

[Solly Mack]

12. Talk about irony...

[Texifornia]

13. It is not always obvious

who is an Arab.

I travel frequently to the region and people with skin tone from very dark to very light all consider themselves Arabs. In Syria, many people have pale skin and blue or grey eyes. In Saudi Arabia and particularly in Egypt identifying someone as Arab by skin tone is a nearly impossible proposition.

Also, al Qaeda has European and "white" American converts.

I don't know who did what exactly, but I would not find it unbelievable for al Qaeda (or similar group) to recruit or select light skinned Arabs or Euro converts for such a mission.

[ConsAreLiars]

14. You assert "video of non-arabs" exists? Any evidence, or just

your "guess"? If you have evidence that what you assert is true, please provide ir. Otherwise, you are just playing with red herrings and seeding disinformation. Evidence is always more helpful than unfounded allegations.

[The Magistrate]

28. That Is Indeed, Sir, Merely A Guess By Mr. Rupe

Certainly there is no such claim in the article: it does not mention video images at all. It states that one thing police are considering is that Balkan Moslems may have been the operatives, chosen because they might blend in better and had no previous connections to such acts, and also that the police are considering if criminals were hired for the purpose. It seems the police are hunting about for a reason why their surveillaince of extremist in England gave them ni warning, but of course, not all police statements can be taken seriously in an investigation. Some are crafted to decieve the people being hunted into feelings of safety.

[ConsAreLiars]

41. Speculation like this, without even a fragment of supporting evidence,

serves to create confusion in the populace. People of good will can become unwitting participants in the spread of unfounded rumors that, with repetition, get taken for fact. The right uses this as a strategy, which makes sense since fascism is their goal and ignorance is their weapon.

[KnaveRupe]

46. Actually,

my problem with this story is the automatic assumption that this was carried out by al-Qa'ida. There is reason to believe that the "previously unknown" Secret European chapter or whatever the hell they called themselves were bogus (misquoting the Qu'ran). There just seems to be an awfully strong desire to put that peg, however square it may be, into that particular round hole.

[The Magistrate]

51. Nonesemse, Mr. Rupe

Al Queda is an odd term, by now, for people tend to use it colloquially to indicate any jihadist radicals, but of course most of these have no real or direct connection to the original organization, even when they adorn themselves with the name on occassion. But that there are jihadists determined to carry out attacks against the West, and capable of doing so, is not a proposition in doubt at all.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

105. But there's no "proof" that such an organization did it, at this time.

Wasn't it assumed that the OKC bombing was done by Muslims originally?

[The Magistrate]

119. Not By Me, Sir

It requires a degree of otherwordliness, to put it mildly, to ignore the actual presence and determination of the jihadists at the present time, in favor of more vaporous things that could be called possible only in the sense that it is possible on my next trip out with the trash there will be a suitcase full of hundred dollar bills wedged between the garbage cans: after all, that could happen....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

132. Where in my posts do I say we should ignore the possibility that Islamic,

Jihadist terrorists perpetrated these acts? Since that is what the tone of your posts replying to me seems to be saying.

[The Magistrate]

133. That Is Cute, Sir

But will not carry the water. Your comments have been exercises in suggesting it should be taken as fact that the attack was carried out by some governmental agency employing whites, and both we, and every person who has read this exchange, knows that. A man must stand by the whole of what he says, Sir, including what he implies, and encourages others to infer....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

135. I'm not saying it was a MIHOP. I AM saying I would entertain that possi-

bility, were there evidence to suggest it.

[The Magistrate]

140. And Therefore, SIr

Since there is no such evidence, you do not bother to entertain that possibility?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

144. No, in fact I DO entertain it. I don't consider it extremely likely.

If there were strong evidence to the contrary then I would "rate it down" or eliminate it as a possibility. Absence of evidence either way does not lead me to eliminate that possibility.

Considering our national collective experience with "yellowcake" and aluminum tubes, even "evidence" produced, depending on the source, would have to be viewed with a bit of suspicion, no?

[The Magistrate]

155. That, At Least, Sir, Is A Clear Statement

What is unlikely, though, is a very poor focus for thought on a matter; it is the likewly that is best explored forst, and the unlikely left for later, if at all. That does not seem to be the course of thought you are urging, Sir. You seem to be urging concentration first on the least likely, and to be doing so in the hope of having it taken for the likely, or even the certain, by ignoring the obvious.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

157. Who said I am urging that the focus be on MIHOP theory? That is merely

the conclusion YOU are drawing from my posts. That is obviously why it appears to have elicited anger from you and the need to reply to each one.

[The Magistrate]

170. Why Else, Sir

Would you so striddently insist we all "open our minds" to this remote possibility, roughly equivalent to that of your winning the lottery tomorrow?

As for the rest, you seem to be mistaking amusement for anger, Sir....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

171. Have you closed your mind to that possibility?

[The Magistrate]

175. My Mind, Sir

Is always open to evidence....

[Sterling]

55. dito

nt

[KnaveRupe]

33. Nope.

No evidence whatsoever. Presenting a link to an article, then saying "I guess there must be (so and so)..." is not asserting something. It's engaging in speculation.

Apologies if it appeared otherwise. Mea maxima culpa.

That being said, can you think of a reason OTHER than video or eyewitness evidence that would lead them to such a wacked-out hypothesis? I've never heard of al-qa'ida ever using "white mercenaries" in the past, have you?

It just seemed odd to me that they would come up with that out of the blue, without some reason.

[ConsAreLiars]

58. Having a range of uncertainty about methods used in the bombings

makes sense until evidence is available to rule out some of the possibilities. At an early stage, no possibility should be, or can be, excluded. To assert that the fact that the range of possibilities is so wide implies that they "must have" video or a taped confession or any other evidence for any of them is a bit of a leap. In fact, it simply means that they have not ruled out any of them.

There is no reason to suspect they "must have" evidence that green aliens disguised as schoolgirls were involved because they haven't ruled that out. The fact that it wasn't mentioned only means it is not regarded as a very likely possibility. Criminal gang involvement is a more reasonable speculation, given that the kinds of explosives involved (early reports before the "no comment" phase) are illegal for the general population.

Uncertainty about who planted the bombs is simply evidence of the absence of evidence, not evidence for the existence of corroborative evidence.

[KnaveRupe]

75. All true.

If they had stated in the article, however, that police were investigating a theory that al-Qa'ida had hired green aliens disguised as schoolgirls to plant the bombs, I would speculate as to what was causing them to not only pursue that theory, but to announce to the press that they were pursuing that theory.

It just leapt out at me as a stretch, that was all. As if they were laying the groundwork for how to spin it back at AQ if it turned out that caucasians set the bombs. Seemed odd, that's all. Not quite as odd as if they had announced the alien schoolgirl thing, but odd nonetheless.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

106. Yes... what if they were "Caucasians" that DIDN'T work for "Al Qaeda" eh?

[The Magistrate]

120. And Why Would You Suppose That, Sir?

Who do think would be employing them, and what facts of this particular case would you advance in support of your notion?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

127. I don't have facts supporting that any particular group did it. I'm not

aware that there are strong facts supporting that Islamic terrorists, white or otherwise, did this either.

But the only theories advanced here by the media seem under the umbrella that Islamic terrorists "did it", instead of being open to other theories.

[The Magistrate]

134. Open To What Other Theories, Sir?

Vapors will carry you only so far in a thing like this....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

136. Well, for one, there's a lot of other kind of terrorists other than

Islamic. Islam didn't invent terrorist methods. Such methods have been used even by Americans like Tim McVeigh.

[The Magistrate]

138. So, Sir

Are you suggesting Christian Identity types executed this attack?

What is the basis for such a suggestion?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

142. Why are you putting words in my "mouth"? I said nothing about

Christian identity groups. Just that terrorism and terrorist methods are not unique to Islamic groups. I did not suggest what you are implying I suggested. Just that the "official speculation" seems confined to Islamic groups and their affiliates, when perhaps it ought not be.

You are obviously enraged by the fact that myself and others posting on this thread would consider a MIHOP scenario since we see potential motive and lack of ethics on the part of the government (US). I'm not saying that there is any way decent evidence suggesting that this is in fact the case, just that I would not consider such a scenario unthinkable. In fact I consider it more likely that Islamic terrorists did perform the London bombings. But I'm open to other possibilities. Are you?

I think the thinly veiled anger coming across in your posts is misplaced.

[The Magistrate]

150. You, Sir, Suggested McVeigh

That is a suggestion that inited clarafication, which you have not really provided.

You insist on opening speculation towards "other possibilities", even while acknowledging there is not the slightest reason to do so, and refuse to admit to suggesting any possible alternative. You insist on conjuring up scenarios you admit there is not a shred of real evidence for, even while claiming you actually believe that the attack was in fact carried out by jihadists. None of this can stand in any sense as serious analysis or argument, it makes the "one the one hand this, and on the other hand that" that economists are so teased over seem a model of clarity and concision by compare.

Produce evidence of government execution of these attacks, if you want me to take the charge the thing was done by government agency seriously.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

153. I don't want, or need, you to do anything, or think anything.

McVeigh is merely a prominent example of a terrorist bomber who was a white American and not an Islamic Jihadist. It is merely an example that proves the obvious fact that all terrorist bombers need not be Islamic Jihadists. Can it be more simple than that?

[The Magistrate]

165. It Is As Simple, Sir, As Any Statement Without A Point Can Be

If a bomb goes off in Sri Lanka, my operating assumption will be that it is done by Tamil Tigers; if a bomb goes off in Nepal, the likeliest candidate is the "Maoist" insurgents.

You seem, Sir, to be verging on accusing me of some form of bigotry, in assuming that Moslems set off all bombs that explode anywhere. That is a very poor technique, Sir, and one you should know better than to employ in this contest.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

168. Is there a contest here?

[The Magistrate]

172. You Are Urging A Particular View, Sir

My comments are in opposition to it. What do you think a contest is?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

173. Are you saying it is impossible that the U.S. government could have

conducted such an act? Or just extremely unlikely, with which I would agree?

[The Magistrate]

179. Since It Is Extremely Unlikely, Sir

What is the gain in focusing on it, amd seeking to conjure up excuses to pretend it might actually have happened?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

181. I am not "focusing" on it. In fact I consider all MIHOP theories to be

very unlikely but not impossible.

If you will note, others on this thread raised the MIHOP flag first, and I responded.

I only have "focused" on it to the extent of replying to your posts.

I have not conjured up any excuses to pretend it might have happened. Show me an excuse I conjured up to do so. I have merely said that I think it is possible but not likely.

You did not answer my question whether you thought it was IMPOSSIBLE, rather than just extremely unlikely.

Surely you must have some position on the matter, Sir?

[The Magistrate]

189. It Is Sufficiently Unlikely, Sir

To be rated a practical impossibilty. Only things that woujd violate physical laws can, strictly speaking, called impossible, and it is my custom to speak quite strictly on serious matters. But as a practical impossibility, it is not worth the slightest degree of thought and energy, absent real evidence to give it weight. This entire line of speculation is ruinously useless. The conspiratorial framework so dear to some is a recepie for political futility and a guarantee of powerlessness in political life.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

190. So, since you took so much umbrage with my using McVeigh as an

example of "first impressions" sometimes being way off, and since you have such educated opinions about Tamil Tigers and the like, what was YOUR initial impression when news of the OKC bombing came out?

Or did you have none?

[The Magistrate]

192. My First Impression Of It, Sir

Was that it was probably home-grown, and related to white supremacists or other reactionary elements. The political climate in the country so shortly after President Clinton's election seemed sufficiently poisonous to excite such wretches to activity; the incidents of Ruby Ridge and Waco were very prominent in their literature, and cries for revenge in those quarters were frequent. It seemed to me that Oklahoma City was a very unlikely place for Middle Eastern operatives to work successfully, just as Damascus would be hard for corn-fed Midwestern types to blend into. The initial reports of "Middle Eastern" people seemed laughable, and merely the result of predisposition and hysteria, things never to be under-rated in the wake of a chaotic event.

[RagAss]

15. Interesting Article.....

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. That's exactly what they said about McVeigh and Joe Doe #2

When the sketches first came out, but before McVeigh was identified. I'll never forget it. Tom Brokaw said, on the NBC Nightly News, that Muslim extremists often "hire Europeans" to pull off their jobs. Never mind that nothing of the sort has happened in the history of Islamicist terrorism.

See my thread predicting a surprise re: culprits, here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4051302

Check the date stamp.

[The Magistrate]

30. The Reason For that, Sir, Is Obvious

Hired help is notoriously unreliable in such an enterprise. A man must be committed heart and soul to the cause to be relied on to keep his mouth shut, or he must be silenced. Anyone bright enough to do the task will be bright enough to realize that, and eager to turn informer ro save his life.

[SweetLeftFoot]

156. Apart from the fact ...

the Chechens have regularly bribed Russians at all levels of government to assist in some of their more despicable acts.

[pocket]

19. John Walker Linde and Richard Reid are white boys

so who knows

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. JohnWalker Lindh engaged in no terrorist activities

He was a naive and stupid kid who got caught up in an enfatuation with radical Islam, volunteered and then was further pressganged into the Taliban forces, and got captured in a combat zone. No one has ever claimed that he engaged in any terrorism against any civilian targets at all.

Richard Reid, on the other hand, is certainly not a white boy, at least according to the standards of any "white" neighborhood I've ever lived in.

[tosca_veritas]

25. assumptions

hmmmm some people here seem to be reluctant to admit that non-muslims could have done this, am I right? It's just gotta be those muslims huh? Did muslims slaughter at Little Big Horn? Did muslims run Auschwitz? Did muslims invade Iraq in 2003? Are muslims bulldozing anyone's homes? hmmm? need to racially profile an 'enemy' , don't you? Fall in line- NOW! The Fuhrer demands it! Get those Bolshewiks !

sorry for the sarcasm, but its just too disgusting to not comment on it

hope those who wish to racially or religiously profile a whole section of the HUMAN family are comfortable in their illusions-- until they wake up and realize who the real enemy is!

[Warren Stupidity]

48. uh I think you are reading more into it than was there

I haven't seen any claim that white people are incapable of atrocities, that would be plain old stupid and DU is not a hot bed of stupidity, unlike some other boards :-)

I think this thread is an expression of a bit of suprise at this particular lead. In general the theme for the London bombings has been bad-arabs run amok, tossing in white-boys is creating a bit of the old cognitive dissonance that our psy-ops folks are so fond of.

What is pretty clear is that the Monday am commuter rush is just about set to start in London and whoever did this is alive and well and perfectly capable of doing it again. Lot of unnerved people getting out of bed in a couple of hours.

[KnaveRupe]

61. Easy, tiger!

Fact is, I posted the link to the article BECAUSE it seemed odd to me that they were concocting a theory which could account for "white folk" setting the bombs and which would STILL blame Arabs.

It seemed to me that the decision had been made that al-Qa'ida MUST be responsible, and that they were "fixing" the facts to support that outcome.

I think that a lot of people here aren't at ALL surprised that there might have been Anglos involved in these bombings. Many probably suspected that when the first reports came in.

[FredStembottom]

86. Thanks, Tiger for showing me what is right in front of my nose

No one actually knows who the bombers were. So, if al-Qa-ida is a working hypothesis in the investigation, finding evidence of white folks setting the bombs diminishes the usefulness of the al-Qa-ida hypothesis.

The investigation would then be widened to non-al-Qa-ida groups. No one would conclude "Oh, the white people must have been _hired by_ the group we don't know did it".

So for such a false syllogism to appear in the press at this stage just reeks of disinformation!:mad:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

108. I think you have gotten his point now. And it's a good point.

[The Magistrate]

121. The Article, Sir

Makes no reference to any such evidence at all; it merely reports this is one of many avenues the police say they are exploring....

[Old Vet]

27. Truth be told, The outcome will be played with...

This is England not Spain.

[Disturbed]

36. Theory

Hell, it coulda been White Xtian Fundies trying to start a war in the UK on Muslims. At this point any theory is as valid as any other, no?

[jmm]

66. Reid's dad is Jamaican and his mom is British

Not what I'd call a white boy but he certainly wasn't Arab.

[SweetLeftFoot]

159. And David Hicks

[Pharlo]

29. ....Next?

....Early last week Italy is looking for 13 CIA agents.

....Late last week bombs were detonated in London.

....Now, London bombers may be caucasians.

Meanwhile,

....Early last week Smokey the Bear wasn't seen in the Everglades.

....Late last week the NOAA began issuing hurricane warnings.

....This weekend, Hurricane Dennis hit Caribbean Islands and US.

[Geek_Girl]

34. I wonder what nationality they are

I hope there are some very brave and intelligent journalist and truth seekers in Great Britain that will get to the bottom of who they are and who they have connections with and what Guiliani was doing in London.

[WCGreen]

35. What if there was a huge robbery that hasn't come to light

What if the attacks were a diversion for a robbery or the hijacking of a otherwise impentatrable computer system.....

What if it was a crime that was the cause....

And not a cause that was the crime.....

[uppityperson]

91. What if someone wanted to disappear, like they owed $$ for a late lib book

and so they bombed a bunch of places and pretended they were dead and didn't have to pay the library fine. Wow, just think about it. No more library fines. wow

[WCGreen]

95. Seriously,

Look at the report. White guys...

Now really. how often do white guys take stuff out of the library...

Honestly, they could have done this in order to disguise some other henious act....

But more than likely, it's a terrorist act....

[uppityperson]

99. More often than non-white guys

glad you have a sense of humor. It could've been done for a larger reason. Like starting a fire somewhere and robbing a bank while everyone is distracted. But probably for a protest reason.

[slor]

38. There was a story about 2 years ago...

about all the anti-American literature German children and teens were reading. An American diplomat was quite concerned and said so in the article. I was certain it may eventually develop into this possible scenario, but even I did not think it could happen this quickly, if it indeed has. But in any event, this president has really fucked things up, and I think we should turn him, and the rest of the administration, over to al-Qa'ida, as a offer of peace.

[jsamuel]

39. Peter Power said something else went on that was fishy

I wish I could find the link...
:banghead:

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. only proper dissent will be allowed. eom.

[leesa]

72. Blair rejects probe into bombings. Now why would he want to do that?

EXACTLY what Bush did after 9-11. Lie, cover-up and obstruct an investigation into who did it. Same old, same old...

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/8186face-f17a-11d9-9c3e-00000e2511c8.html

[snot]

90. Interesting--you might want to post that separately if no one has - nt

[jmm]

74. Great I can picture it now, profiling by association

To those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America’s enemies and pause to America’s friends. They encourage people of goodwill to remain silent in the face of evil.

[hexola]

87. Timothy Mc Veigh (nt)

[Matariki]

93. starting to wonder *what* 'al-Qa'ida' is a code word for

:tinfoilhat:

[Matariki]

94. I just read the article and didn't see the word caucasian

where did you get that? Speculation they're from the Balkans?

[jsamuel]

96. "gang of white" nt

[daleo]

97. If "whites" were caught on film planting the bombs

I would believe it was an intelligence agency before I would believe it was mercenaries paid by Al Quada.

[BlueStateGirl]

107. Why would an intelligence agency use "white" operatives when trying

to make us believe it was done by Islamic extremists? Esp.in a city with 4.2 million cameras?

If "whites" were caught on film planting bombs ( which as far as I can tell is on poster's speculation) I would think it was homegrown terrorism. Perhaps Neo-Nazi's?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

109. Maybe because they don't have "Arab" operatives enough who would do such

a thing?

[BlueStateGirl]

111. The CIA or MI5 wouldn't have four Arab operatives? Anywhere?

Or even four 'darker' looking people?

Or the Mossad?

Really?

Supposedly, they had no problem rounding up 19 of them to fly some planes into the WTC.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

114. I'm not saying I subscribe to any MIHOP theory about 9/11 OR this.

For 9/11 I actually think it's LESS plausible because of the suicide nature of the attacks.

All I'm saying is IF there were such a plot, there might not be enough agents of ANY type willing to do such a thing, to be able to select enough "Arab" ones to do it.

I do keep an open mind though. I wouldn't put any of it past them.

[BlueStateGirl]

117. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out not to be related to

anything Al Qeada. I wouldn't be surprised to fins out it was a bunch of wannabe Nazi freaks. t There seems to be resurgence of those kind of views in Western Europe due to the rise in immigration. Of course, that would be a tad inconvenient for both sides. One of which is using the attacks to claim they were right to invade Iraq, and the other which is claiming that the Iraqi invasion caused the attacks.


Of course it could be Al QED, and it is possible it was some sort of MIHOP.

[preciousdove]

154. Yemeni husband sits in jail because he would not do FBI

Family has been put through the ringer. Wonder about those who did not say no to the FBI

http://www.helpashraf.com/phpNuke/index.php

I guy I networked with genealogy asked me if a friend from the Muslim speaking area of India who lived in Africa was available. He had a FEMA contract in 1999 and they needed translators. Friend declined.

[daleo]

116. You use who you have, I guess.

I don't really know how intelligence agencies work, but I suspect that the most trusted MI6, CIA, etc. agents are not of Arabic descent. Neo-Nazi's might just be worth looking into, in somewhat the same way that McVeigh turned out to be along those lines.

[BlueStateGirl]

118. That's what I'm thinking. Of course that would leave a lot of folks

with egg on their faces.

So, there would be a need to link it to Al Qeada, however tenuous (or non existent)the link.

Honestly, I don't know what to believe.

[ConsAreLiars]

126. You say "Honestly, I don't know what to believe." and that is the goal

of a classic disinformation campaign. Here you have already accepted the assertion that white guys were on some video, whe theere is zero evidence other that some anonymous speculator's assertion that they "must have" one. Don't be played for a fool. Start with facts, and stick to them.

[SweetLeftFoot]

163. UDA/UVF/LVF

pissed off at the concessions made in north of Ireland, trying to pin something on the IRA. But I doubt it. Highly. Crazy jihadi fucks.

[The Magistrate]

123. Except, Sir

That there is no report of any such film, and of course any competent intelligence service would eb certain to procure persons of the proper appearance for an operation intended to be taken for being done by a particular group. Even of it was simply make-up, it would be child's play to contrive.

[JackRiddler]

98. What's "tinfoily" about CIA?

They have a history in committing terror attacks on civilians at least as impressive as the IRA's.

- Gladio / P2 Italy bombings
- Lebanon 1986 car bomb (more than 80 killed)
- death squad organization and training, putsches, etc.

Of course, CIA as such does nothing; what matters is the private self-appointed networks ensconced within official agencies.

Let us keep all reasonable options open. this is one of them.

[The Magistrate]

124. It Is Not A Reasonable Option, Mr. Riddler

We both know that. It is, for some, an enchanting and magical option, that opens the door to a world of secret knowledge and all the glamour such possession entails, but it is not reasonable. Nor, for that matter, is the "secret knowledge" any more true than an alchemist's pretension to transmute lead to gold.

[Must_B_Free]

207. What do you really know for certain?

[The Magistrate]

225. Well, Sir

It seems pretty certain God made little green apples, and it don't rain in Minneapolis in the summertime....

[Must_B_Free]

276. Oh my gosh.

As skilled with wit as with debate. Well done, The Magistrate.

Sorry to hear about Minneapolis, by the way.

[BlueStateGirl]

102. Are you saying that you think it was the IRA or something other "white"

terrorist organization, and that TPTB are tying it to Al Qeada in order to keep everyone's focus on The War on Terror, or are you saying that Bush gang hired some white folks to do it ?

I could believe they'd find a way to blame Islamic extremest, if for no other reason than saving face.

But I don't think Bushco would hire white folks to plant bombs in a city with 4.2 million surveillance cameras. Only to have some footage turn up and then half to scramble to find away to tie it to Al Qeada.
It would make more sense to use more Arabic looking operatives and then use the footage to prove themselves correct.

[jsamuel]

103. self-delete

[rumpel]

110. In other words Cheney's secret op boys?

[Maple]

128. I'm curious to know

what sent the police off on this particular line of investigation.

A tip...or something from the hours of video tape they are currently viewing?

When you start off looking for 'Arabs', and yet veer away suddenly to look for a gang of white people, you have to wonder why.

Certainly intriguing.

[yurbud]

235. why is it that the further out the conspiracy theory the more likely it...

is to be true?

There was something similar in Israel a while back the Palestinian Authority caught Mossad agents recruiting for an al Qaeda cell.

You could set up a false flag operation, and the guys who actually carry it out could think they are part of a real cause and a real organization when in fact they are just tools.

I don't think any white mercenaries would be stupid enough to do that bombing. It would drastically limit the number of countries they could retire to.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[Vladimir]

275. I think its a fantasy

to pretend that the IRA had anything to do with this (although the theory about caucasians, hired or not, is not at all implausible). Its not their MO - the IRA have always bombed with a clear purpose in mind, and usually claim responsibility. Anarchists are a possibility, but this seems like wishful thinking...

[Maple]

277. Lot of Black Bloc here eh?

Or at least Black Bloc wannabees. :D

Well...'whack em and stack em'

Black Bloc are terrorists.

Deal with it.

Nite guys. I had fun.

I doubt you did. :rofl:

[Moderator]

278. locking

this has turned into a flamewar