Is Abortion Turning Blue States Red?

[Quixote1818]

This story was a little alarming. It seems we need to work on being more neutral on Abortion yet at the same time protect it and keep it legal. Talk about walking a tight rope.


Mark Joseph

Is Abortion Turning Blue States Red?


I just came across this piece from the L.A. Times on attitudes toward abortion among the next generation. The fact that UCLA's incoming freshman survey is finding that students are increasingly anti-abortion used to puzzle me until I saw this interesting piece last year in the Wall Street Journal

Another Journal reporter weighed in last week with this piece .

I'm no demographer, but if there's a grain of truth to this stuff it can't be good for the Democratic party. As if losing the votes of millions of culturally moderate to conservative Democrats and independents wasn't enough, according to this data millions of future Democratic voters aren't making it past the second trimester in higher numbers than their Republican counterparts.

What else has to happen before Democrats throw this issue out the window and get back to winning elections?

Continued At:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/featuredposts.html#a004040

[merwin]

1. I support people who don't want to get abortions.

However, I also support the rights of those who want to get an abortion.

It's not an issue that can be thrown out the window and still have us be called democrats/liberals. The issue is about choice and freedom over your own body, not imposing your views on other people in order to limit their rights.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Exactly

It's about freedom. If they took away my freedom of making the choice I might someday have to make then they hate my freedoms. It's true.

[Mythsaje]

2. It's pretty simple, really...

Suggest ways to SOCIALLY discourage abortions...offer alternatives, like effective birth control, comprehensive sex education, and alternatives to abortion. Don't make it a legal issue with Democrats, make it a social issue.

"We don't think abortion's a good thing, but any American has the right to make decisions about his or her own body. And, as much as we're not crazy about it sometimes, this also includes a woman's right to choose abortion."

Push alternatives...ESPECIALLY comprehensive sex ed and birth control.

Talking Point to RWers. "You can't oppose BOTH abortion AND methods of preventing pregnancy. Pick one!"

[Quixote1818]

6. We need to change the name from Pro Choice to Pro Privacy

Pro Choice makes abortion sound like picking out an Avocado at the grocery store. Pro Privacy sounds like "Get these politicians out of my bedroom."

[Mythsaje]

11. From my blog

Pro-Choice vs. Personal Liberty: “REAL Americans don’t surrender their bodies to their government.”

http://sajewilliams.blogspot.com (Changing The Dialogue).

[Quixote1818]

16. Is this message getting to the party leaders?

I know Dean has talked about this but I have not heard anyone using terminology such as Personal Liberty or Pro Privacy.

[Mythsaje]

22. I don't know...

I've tried to send my "Oath of Good Government" and "Talking Points" posts in, but who knows if anyone actually read them.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. Well what do you say

to someone who says "what about the right of a baby?"

[Mythsaje]

28. To do what?

A fetus is unable to make decisions of any kind, and the one person involved who CAN make decisions has no obligation to turn her decision-making over to you or anyone else.

We hope that someone makes any other choice BESIDES abortion, and not only suggest they do, but offer any number of options if they do decide not to have an abortion. But the decision is, in the end, between her, her medical provider, and God. None of which YOU can claim to be.

[bunkerbuster1]

44. It's not a baby.

Simple, really.

In medical terms, it's not even a "fetus" until around the 20th week; virtually all elective abortions are of embryos.

I realize some people choose to believe that embryos are babies, but it's not only not correct, there's nothing I've ever seen in our religious texts to back that up, either.

This is a bullshit, made up issue, that we must take back, and stop pussyfooting around. Yes, by all means, do all we can to prevent unintended pregnancies; make adoption as smooth as possible; but we MUST make certain that reproductive rights are upheld or we ain't worth squat as a party (or a nation, for that matter.)

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Yep!

You got it. I've been doing that myself with people. Encouraging education. I always suggest in high schools (and possibly colleges) have an *optional* sex ed class. That way people can choose to take it or not and not be forced to do so. Then the information can still be out there on what to do etc. Also encourage people to vote smart. Don't just vote party line. You're allowed to cross the line. You have to think before you vote. Vote for someone who can improve the economy. Find out why women have abortions. According to Planned Parenthood only three out of ten reason's can be fixed by society's help. The three reason's that can not be fixed is rape, incest and a health reason with the baby and/or mother. All the other reason's revolve around emotions or income and the economy. If a woman is working three/four jobs to make ends meet she probably doesn't want to bring a baby into that world. I think there should be a place where women can go and get free counceling in the clinics before they make up their mind for sure. If they want to of course.

[Quixote1818]

31. I think counseling should be free for everyone in the country

Most people with poor parenting skills have poor interpersonal communication and conflict resolution skills because they come from families that lacked these skills. They learn to communicate and solve problems just like their fucked up parents did. If they got free counseling especially the kids, they would learn different ways to deal with conflict and solve problems. Crime would go down and people would learn to work out problems more effectively plus since most violence comes from people under stress and from dysfunctional families, the free counseling would help these families learn to deal with stress and blow off steam. We would see more loving families and kids with much better self esteem.

[zapp]

Reframe the issue! It's about legitimate health care choices.

[ugarte]

3. People oppose abortion until they need one

These UCLA kids will learn.

[Quixote1818]

13. Great Point and since they don't teach Sex Ed anymore

no one will know what birth control is and so the number of those UCLA Kids needing abortions will be way up.

[seabeyond]

45. repug brothers and father anti abortion. niece got preg a year ago

at 15. had arguments with both brothers and father on abortion. father went so far to say rape only reason to get abortion. a mother health with ten kids, she dies and the father raises kids alone.

as soon as i found out niece was preg father says, of course the best thing is abortion. both brothers went to abortion. i am the only one saying, hey wait, dont make it so easy on the girl. they wanted to protect her, make sure it was easy on her, and i wanted her to feel some guilt and responsibility for her poor choices. learn a lesson.

my father, well it is still legal.

opposed until they need it, yes.

none of the three will ever hear the end to this one.

[Baconfoot]

4. While we're at it, let's advocate taking rights away from minorities.

I just visited Alabama recently and we could DEFINITELY win votes that way.

Dump the abortion issue?
:thumbsdown:

[Hissyspit]

5. Not being taught how bad an anti-reproductive rights society is. I posted

the below on abortion-rights support poll trends a few days ago. It didn't get much response.

Young people say they are more anti-abortion when asked because they are ignorant. They don't remember and are not being taught how bad an anti-reproductive rights society is. People are over-reacting. Abortion rights support has been pretty consistent for 30 years.

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2005/07/choices_strengt.html

Well, the trend is 'America has been consistent on reproductive rights for 30 years.' Don't know if this has been posted in the past week or so, but always worthy of review. From the Mobtown Shank: "Here is a look, over the last 30 years, of America's view of abortion. Since Bush has a Supreme Court nomination coming up, and the fringe Right Religious Extremists (AKA God's Own Circus) are demanding a nomination that will appease them, here is a look at how America has viewed, and still views, abortion."

1975
21% - Wants Abortion Always Legal
54% - Wants Abortion Sometimes Legal
22% - Wants Abortion Outlawed

1980
25% - Wants Abortion Always Legal
53% - Wants Abortion Sometimes Legal
18% - Wants Abortion Outlawed

1990
31% - Wants Abortion Always Legal
53% - Wants Abortion Sometimes Legal
12% - Wants Abortion Outlawed

1996
24% - Wants Abortion Always Legal
52% - Wants Abortion Sometimes Legal
17% - Wants Abortion Illegal

2000
28% - Wants Abortion Always Legal
51% - Wants Abortion Sometimes Legal
19% - Wants Abortion Illegal

2005
24% - Wants Abortion Always Legal
55% - Wants Abortion Sometimes Legal
20% - Wants Abortion Illegal

MUCH MORE AT ORIGINAL BLOG LINK

[LiberalUprising]

8. Your link is not working, could you please check and repost link?

n/t

[Hissyspit]

9. Fixed! n/t

[Hissyspit]

14. Fixed link and kick... n/t

[LiberalUprising]

46. Thanks Hissyspit

and kicked

[Erika]

7. Ah, Democrats are for education to limit abortions

And abortions are happening less. Democrats just never thought the GOP should hold a whip over women and order them to deliver. Didn't quite think it was the right way. Men have a responsibility also, a fact that the Republicans want to dismiss over their frenzy to force women to deliver.

[Mythsaje]

10. self delete

wrong place on the thread. Sorry.

[noamnety]

12. It's all in the marketing

In the Clinton years, abortions went down, in the Bush years abortions went up. Most of DU knows this. Most of the rest of the country doesn't.

We need to stop fearing the issue when it comes up in debates. We need to do what the RW does - attack their weaknesses. If a person who opposes abortion engages in debate on the issue, tell them, damn straight, we agree with you, there are too many abortions going on. And then launch into the reasons why that's happening.

[Mythsaje]

17. Lack of comprehensive education

Message to RWers. "You can't oppose abortion AND effective pregnancy prevention. Pick one!"

[Quixote1818]

20. Kerry dropped the ball in the debates on Abortion

His answer was so long and confusing!!! :banghead: All he had to say was what Clinton use to say. Safe, legal and rare!

[NAO]

15. Abortion is the source of the Great Red Tide (it's a loser for us)

If Roe v. Wade had never come to pass, I think there would be a good chance that the United States would be a far more liberal nation, with very progressive policies.

Read Thomas Frank's book "What's the Matter With Kansas". He explains the "great backlash" and how the wealthy class have used the abortion issue as the primary issue to get the masses of the working class and the under class to support extreme right-wing reactionary political agendas.

Because of the way these people have framed the issue (that abortion is the pre-meditated murder of an unborn person) they will never compromise, never relent, never give up, never stop supporting the worst, most regressive, reactionary agendas until it is outlawed. When I say NEVER, I mean NEVER. Not in 10 years or 100 years or 1000 years. They will give up EVERYTHING they have to win this fight.

While I think they are wrong about abortion, and I believe that abortion should be safe, legal, and available in many cases, I am NOT willing to give up EVERYTHING to win that fight. And I suspect that many other progressives are not willing to give up EVERYTHING to win it either.

I consider as a real possibility that in the future abortion may be viewed as slavery is now viewed. Right up to the Emancipation Proclamation there were (otherwise good, moral) people who argued fervently for the institution of slavery. I don't know the future, but I think it's possible that future generations will look back on abortion as very wrong and from a very savage time.

BTW, I am an atheist. I have no religion at all. I don't need a belief in god or religion to know right from wrong. I don't cite Bible verses to prove that the unborn are persons. But if our understanding of what a human life really is expands to the point where it becomes evident that a fetus is a person, it will be an unavoidable conclusion that abortion has been infanticide all along. It's a question for biology, not theology to decide, but the verdict that Reason and Science delivers is not necessarily going to be the verdict we want. It really could go either way.

[Mythsaje]

21. I don't think the left needs to frame this as a legal issue...

It's a SOCIAL issue that has to be addressed as such. Abortion is caused by lack of education, lack of resources, and lack of community involvement. It is something we DO NOT support, in and of itself, but we do support the right of all American citizens to control their own bodies. It is not in the interest of ANY American to turn over their medical decisions to lawyers and other operatives of the government.

[REP]

26. I'll Gladly Give Up YOUR Rights For MY Agenda, Too

Hope you enjoyed being an atheist, because I'm willing to let religious freedoms/freedom from religion slide to ensure my agenda. I'm sure you won't mind swearing an oath to a god to keeo your job or obtain federal benefits, right? Mandatory church attendance isn't nearly as bad as forced childbirth, either, so I'm sure you'll understand.

[FreedomAngel82]

27. I personally

think the republican politicans would never get rid of Roe V Wade. If it wasn't for that issue why would people vote for them?

[Tux]

35. Exactly

While I hate abortion, I do want women to have proper healthcare and medical privacy. People are willing to lose jobs, a stable economy, sanity, and possible theocracy over this one thing. Best to make it illegal, protect a woman's right to healthcare and privacy then move on to other areas like jobs, stable economy, and removing anti-intellectualism from our nation. I hate to lose on an issue but we may have to drop it to get America back on track to propriety. It's hard to let that go but we have to save America from conservatives who want corporate slaves.

[kestrel91316]

18. Here's what I say to those who oppose abortion ......

be careful what you ask for. You just may get it.

I am about ready to throw in the towel on this issue which I have marched and fought over for 20 years. If people are too dumb to have learned the first time around, I say FINE. Let them have the back alleys again. Just don't come crying to me when you find yourself in trouble.

[Erika]

29. We'll never throw in the towel

The Bushies do not speak for Americans. They've come to a point of being some weird cult.

[REP]

24. What An Ass

The writer of this piece (not the OP) doesn't know his ass from third base. Americans are overwhelmingly pro-choice. If Joseph bothered to get out and do a little research, he might have written a piece worth reading, but he didn't, and that's time I'll never get back.

[Quixote1818]

32. Both his sources are from the Wall Street Journal.

He should probably diversify a little bit. Most of us here think all we have to do is change the language of abortion. Change the name from Pro Choice to something like Pro Privacy. Take the emphasis off of the act and more toward keeping the Gov. out of our bedrooms.

[lonestarnot]

30. Hell no! One cannot legislate morality. It's more of an issue of power.

And class...We riches are going to tell you poor asses how to wag your tails and if you don't like it to bad. Social control and suppression of masses to keep the laborers in place. This is an easy way to create a slave labor market. Outlaw abortion. Then there is a whole supply of slave laborers that are uneducated, working for minimum or less if they figure out a way around paying even minimum. I never hear one of those right swipers say they are going to help pay to support even one unwanted child or give a shit whether the child eats let alone gets a college education!

[fujiyama]

33. I don't think views have changed

as much as the tactics of the religious right. They have become much more vocal and dramatic. I'll give them credit in the amount of work put in. At my college, there have been several showcases (one had a video ofd a fetus, the other was a lot of crosses outside on the courtyard) by the "students for life" group and they appeal greatly to emotion. These groups are likely funded by larger think tanks.

I really don't see what else the party can do on this. Moderate and conservative dems have understandably (though I disgree) voted for bans on so called "partial birth" abortions and have backed parental notification laws but to the RW this really will not end there.

It's really a matter of how the party discusses the issue. Most people don't look at it as a "civil liberty" and I think framing it that way hasn't worked. We must frame it more as a matter of privacy and an unfortunate reality. Abortions won't end if it's outlawed. It will only move it to allies and backways.

[Quixote1818]

34. I think you are right

Someone above has some polling data on this and views have not changed. I don't know where the WSJ got it's polling information. As far as the abortion issue, it's probably as simple as changing the language of abortion. Change the name from Pro Choice to something like Pro Privacy. Take the emphasis from the act to keeping the gov. out of the bedroom. Just that would make a big differenc.

[gumby]

36. Abortion IS turning Blue states Red.

That's because any responsible reply has been purposely eliminated from public discourse.

"Choice" is not about a product. "Choice" has proven to be a very bad 'choice' of language.

Women can not be equal citizens without the ability to control their fertility.

So sad, so bad..... Women vs. Taliban is the more correct analogy.

However, since today's politics is predicated on Taliban ethics, there ya go... women and children first..... KABOOM!

[Quixote1818]

37. Pro Privacy

would be a better choice of words in my opinion.

[gumby]

38. "Freedom"

might be even better.

Up too late, goodnight.

[Lannes]

39. In a related topic this article from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4225013.stm

"A significant number of US high-school students regard their constitutional right to freedom of speech as excessive, according to a new survey."

Over a third of the 100,000 students questioned felt the First Amendment went "too far" in guaranteeing freedom of speech, press, worship and assembly.

Only half felt newspapers should be allowed to publish stories that did not have the government's approval. "

[no_hypocrisy]

40. I respectfully disagree with the UCLA survey cited.

UCLA's incoming freshman survey is finding that students are increasingly anti-abortion.

So I should suspend my belief and accept the premise that:

1. A majority (51% or more) incoming freshman (18 years more or less in chronological age, 18 years in age emotionally more or less), whose demographic is average 51% or more female enrollment believe that

2. Despite their working very hard for the previous four years in high school which encompass a decent grade point average and notable SAT scores and their serendipity to either have parents who can afford to pay their $200,000 or so tuition bill or get dwindling financial aid are ready to

3. Give up their future should a female student get too drunk one night and either sleep with a male student, or worse, get date raped, and find herself unexpectedly and undesirably pregnant and

4. Is prepared to drop out of school just like that (*SNAPPING FINGERS*) and do the prenatal drill, give birth, may or may not marry the father to ensure "legitimacy" for the child, and devote her life to the appropriate upbringing of that child, with or without the help of her parents who

5. May or not be pleased with her responsible attitude, not to mention,

6. The biological father of the child will step forward in a grand gesture of maturity and responsibility at age 18, being prepared to drop out of school, piss away his tuition as well, and take menial jobs in order to provide for the unborn/born offspring with the prospect of potential marriage (see #4), and

7. Colleges like UCLA loses "customers" on a rapid basis as they are denied four years of promised revenue through tuitions.

Yeah, I believe that these kids have thought this all through and they are prepared to show the world that they are more mature, moral, and responsible than their parents who embodied the sexual revolution a generation ago. (Dripping sarcasm)

[meg]

41. Let's just go on popularity and not reason or principle

that way we can support a "Christian" nation and slavery. So whatever the media manipulation and propaganda of the the GOP produces in the population we can just get right behind and support with all of our might.

/sarcasm off

[Darwins Finch]

42. To answer the root question...

"Is Abortion Turning Blue States Red?"

No, a massively biased media and an incurious populace is.

The psychological science of marketing and propaganda has become so finely honed that your average American does not have the mental toolset to cope with it. The become driven by triviata and jingoism, and have lost the critical faculties necessary to cope with the reality that the bright shiny lie continually labours to conceal. Which of course is how the corporations and their political allies prefer things, as docile consumers are more easily managed than free spirits.

It's an oft-beaten drum, but one that sounds no less true for it - people are complacent, and too ready to give up freedoms that they haven't fought for. Why do some Americans think that we're "too free"? Because they haven't lived without those freedoms. And because they think that they can only get rid of the "freedoms" they don't like, like the freedom to choose your sexual partner or religious faith.

These are the real factors turning our nation into one of anti-intellectual conservatism. And I believe it will take another widespread collapse to jolt enough of the populace out of this cocoon and back into the light of day. Fortunately, once that happens, we can begin to build a decent society again.

[KharmaTrain]

43. So Democrats Are Gonna "Darwin" Themselves Out Of Existance?

This is one that deserves a Snopes treatment.

So, since Democrats are pro-choice and are more likely to have an abortion...while Repugnicans aren't...in some future apex, the number of abortions will wipe out all Democrats? Beam me up Scotty.

This assumes all politics is "genetic" (while I will say a lot is environmental) and that a person has to be one or the other. There's no measures here other than an "R" or "D"...what happens if you're an Independent?

Yes, it's time Democratic Party politicians reframe what this issue is all about. It's not about "Abortions On Demand"...it's the <b>option</b> to Choose. No woman is or ever is forced to have an abortion and no Democrat advocates that. If anything the debate should be turned into the current state of education, child and health care...let's really get into "Quality Of Life" issues.