I just schooled someone called "SoCalPundit" via email

[WilliamPitt]

Got this earlier. He starts by quoting my last essay:

"Somewhere, at this moment, a neoconservative is seething because his entire belief structure regarding government has been laid waste by a storm of singular ferocity."

And then goes on to say:

You mean to tell me that you believe that the failure of government to meet the needs of each and every citizen is something that surprises and upsets a conservative? You need to get off the crack asshole!

Just because you are able to get this shit into print does not make it true. In reality your statement is so rife with contradictions to reality that it discredits your entire commentary.

I replied:

Illuminate me.

Her replied:

I explained very clearly I think that it is liberals that worship
government. Most conservatives I know are not at all surprised that FEMA, State and Local government failed to get the job done. We sent the government to do a job that an NGO could do better.

But we'll never see the day when NGOs are put in charge of anything the government is in charge of today because the liberals have been successful in propagating the lie that we need government, that government is our friend.

What a croc.

I concluded:

You want NGOs to handle a crisis that spans four states? That crosses through a dozen different jurisdictions? What manner of special powers would you be willing to grant private organizations? Police powers? Where does the accountability rest?

At a minimum, public organizations have public accountability, appointees and the elected oficials who put them there. They also have pre-established legal/police powers that should never be surrendered to a private group accountable to no voter and no citizen.

I am not against NGOs, for goodness sake. But sometimes there are problems, crises and issues so broad, spanning so many state, parish/county, police boundaries, that it must be public institutions that address them.

Government isn't evil. Government is where people come together, in the best instance, to lift everyone else up. Government is only evil and stupid when it is run by people who hate government.

Oh, PS, such a massive industrialized nation can't be run by private organizations. Just isn't possible. The idea that it can be, so often propagated by pundits from Southern California, is 90% of the reason we're in this mess in the first place.

Cheers.

So that was fun.

[craigolemiss]

1. Of the people, By the people, For the people

nuf sed

[SeattleGirl]

2. you got that right!

Thanks Craig, and thanks WillPitt!

[Garbo 2004]

3. FEMA worked under Clinton. Gov't doesn't work when run by those who

don't believe in gov't and have no interest in actually serving the people. They only care about gov't to the extent that they can secure gov't contracts and tax breaks for their friends. That's feeding at the public trough, not governing.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[johnaries]

36. And can you tell me HOW an NGO would have done a better

job?

The sole purpose of ANY private organization is to make money. Trust me, if a private org decides it can save money or improve "cost effectiveness" by allowing a certain amount of "acceptable deaths", it will not hesitate to let those people die.

[K-W]

38. As long as it isnt called government it becomes magically effective. EOM

[MindPilot]

41. Self-delete -- in response to the removed poster eom

[VolcanoJen]

4. Thanks, Will! Now, please come to Cincinnati and spank a few of 'em...

... for me. I'm exhausted!

I'll buy lunch! And unlimited adult beverages.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Who would she suggest...Operation Blessing?

We can all pray real hard to Our Saviour while Pat invests in diamond mines and oil wells. They love to privitize, but what happens when the corps go belly up like a World-Com or Enron?

Here's an interestiing post on FEMA outsourcing Louisiana's Disaster planning...that $500K did a lot of good. I wonder what the principals contributed to the re-elect Bush-Cheney campaign?

[WilliamPitt]

6. Post?

[Old and In the Way]

23. Sorry.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4670619&mesg_id=4671025

Here's a post by EVDebs in this thread that's germaine to your OP:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

No need to go ad hominem. Bush 'outsourced' FEMA's hurricane planning and evacuation response to Innovative Emergency Management, Inc., a.k.a. IEM. See website www.ieminc.com and look up the Southeastern Louisiana New Orleans Disaster Plan

IEM Team to Develop Catastrophic Hurricane Disaster Plan for New Orleans & Southeast Louisiana
June 3, 2004
http://www.ieminc.com/Whats_New/Press_Releases/pressrel ...

"The IEM team will complete a functional exercise on a catastrophic hurricane strike in Southeast Louisiana and use results to develop a response and recovery plan. A catastrophic event is one that can overwhelm State, local and private capabilities so quickly that communities could be devastated without Federal assistance and multi-agency planning and preparedness."

So, when New Orleans was hit by the Cat 5 levee-breaking Hurrican Katrina, and the FEMA plan paid for with $500K of taxpayer's dollars was supposed to kick into effect...nothing happened. The state and local officials are now being blamed despite being obviously 'overwhelmed' as the Plan describes.

The Disaster Plan is a clear example of typical neoconservative dogmatic outsourcing and privatization AT ALL COSTS. Why, outsourcing has already destroyed so many US jobs in manufacturing and now in 'back office' and IT, it is now literally killing US citizens !

Republicans and their enabler Democratic camp followers will need to investigate this, and soon. Hurricane season has two more months to go.

[OneGrassRoot]

7. I can't grasp the thought process............

My experience has also been that those who support * feel that government is useless. Of course, they don't BLAME Bush or his administration for it.

Yet, even more disturbing is the fact that they don't seem to care that it's useless. It's simply an accepted fact of life to them.

Granted, a crisis which could have been prevented or aided by government, has yet to hit them personally.

They are much more outraged at what they see as government "handouts"....the Welfare system. Once again, I can't wrap my brain around why they are so upset about that situation yet don't have any outrage toward government handouts to multi-billion dollar corporations?! And, these are low-middle class folks, not anyone directly benefitting from the tax cuts.

I simply don't get it. At all. Sure, racism is a huge part of it for the people I've encountered. I don't know....maybe if they had their white Arian America THEN they would demand more of government? Really, I'm at a loss as to how to even live in a society that thinks this way....it sure became obvious this week that so many do.

[baldguy]

8. Bush's responsibility for this tragedy is beyond question.

Bringing about an ineffectual and weak federal govt is THE central plank of the GOP party platform, and has been for the past 30 yrs. The devastation we've seen from Katrina is the inescapable result of policies that under-fund essential services, put unqualified political cronies in charge of government agencies with increasingly technical and complex missions, and generally devalue public service.

[Armstead]

9. Freppers hate NGOs too

Funny that your penpal was talking about turning it over to non-governmental organizations.

Whenever an NGO that isn't eitehr a Fundamentalist Christian Conservative organization or a Corporate Front takes action or points out problems, the right wingers start yelling "That isn't their job! They are corrupt and ineffective."

Just think of how they'd react if the UN had led the relief efforts. Remember how they go crazy whenever the Red Cross has pointed out human-rights issues.

Your correspondent wants the impossible. He wants people to be autonymous, while he ignores they very corporate forces that make such self-sufficiency impossible.

[fishnfla]

10. I thought conservatives were all about National Security

The failure of the Goverment to keep her citizens safe after the storm should shake them to the very core

[bryant69]

11. The only things worth doing

Are the things the corporations can make money off of doing.

In the conservative mind.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[FreedomAngel82]

12. I would've said

"so how do you think those standing in water up to their necks feel?"

[lateo]

13. SoCalPundit is a blogger

And a bad one at that...

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[charlie]

14. You can't crack that circularity

Big gummint is the problem. So when my guys fuck up, they're heroes for proving the case. Yay, worldview affirmed!

[PunkPop]

15. "You need to get off the crack asshole!"

I see she utilizes the modern-day republican debating style: Make assertions without facts and then call people names.

Your reply was excellent like your columns. I'd be curious if she responds again.

[K-W]

16. Propaganda creates some odd ideas doesnt it?

Basically the argument here is that we should have a government that isnt called 'the government'

This is what comes from having propaganda that both enforces authoritarianism and stigmatizes the word government.

You have people who think they are libertarians but are practically begging for someone to rule over them.

So as long as the tyranny is dressed up as an 'organization' and not a 'government' they are all for it.

[ArkDem]

17. Arguing with complete strangers is a lot of fun!

[abluelady]

18. Money, Money, Money

These people do not want to pay taxes. The smaller the government, the smaller their taxes. Compassion, caring, integrity, brains, etc., These people just don't have it.

[ourbluenation]

19. They don't think governement should be anyones mommy

but they sure love their big daddy - The Dep't of DEFENSE!

[K-W]

21. And they just love corporations controlling thier lives.

Damn that nanny state with its caring and accountability.

But hoorah for nanny corporations who will leave you to die rather than lose a buck.

[H2O Man]

20. Well done.

She disqualifies herself from serious consideration with the "get off the crack" nonsense. The rest of her position represents nothing if not a shortcut in thinking that avoids logic. The taking of shortcuts is what has gotten our country in trouble. Your position, which clearly indicates taking the broader view, is beyond her comprehension.

[librechik]

22. If conservatives would pitch in and help with their own governing

instead of demonizing collective civility, and huddling with their own well-fixed cabal we would all be better off, and Katrina might not have happened.

Conservatives' decades-long campaign to murder government caused this catastrophe, and they must be pushed back before we are all New Orleans!

This gang is too wealthy to need government; they see profit for themselves in its removal, since they are determined to install themselves as lawless overlords when government is gone.

[ProfessorGAC]

24. You Didn't School Him, Will!

That would require him to be capable of learning from your reply. He isn't. Too stupid to ever understand the nuance and abstractions in your premise.

I can see why it was fun, but alas, no learning or schooling is likely to have taken place.
The Professor

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ron Green]

26. It both upsets and delights conservatives when government fails,

because they want all projects, big and small, in private hands. They're convinced that the wealthy and powerful can best manage the affairs of men (and women), rather than putting it to some sort of vote.

[Bridget Burke]

32. What about Homeland Security?

Did your boy create this massive bureaucracy because he KNEW it would fail? FEMA used to work pretty well, before it was eaten up.

If "conservatives" hate government so much, why do they continue to run for office?

Sorry, you got schooled. You're just to dumb to realize it.

[Missy Vixen]

33. Actually, I'd like to participate in the schooling

>I simply corrected him by pointing out that most conservatives EXPECT government will fail them and prepare<

Really? Interesting theory, but it's patently untrue. I seem to remember multiple natural disasters over the past several years -- Florida's hurricanes, flooding in the Midwest, 9/11, etcetera, in which conservative governors and citizens couldn't wait to belly up to the FEMA bar. If Jeb Bush expects "government" to "fail him", perhaps he shouldn't have been so quick to seek help afterwards. I also didn't notice Giuliani turning down government help to clean up Manhattan, either.

Since search is off, I can't provide the actual post, but DU has had an article posted here within the past week detailing how FEMA offered financial help during Frances -- paying for multiple burials, for example, of those who were not killed in the hurricane.

Julie

[FlemingsGhost]

35. How do conservatives feel when the Pentagon fails them?

The U.S. military leadership is failing us miserably.

Why haven't you folks gone after the Commander-in-Chief?

[Pithy Cherub]

37. Conservatives get what they expect - failure.

What a value to publically espouse and hold dear. That is the issue right there - the inability to think in a scale that is worthy of humanity. You believe in scarcity rather than abundance and its why conservatism is such a failed principle. Shown nightly now on any TV station and in every nespaper around the world. Conservatism is a government prescription for failure and now its on display costing thousands of lives and billions of dollars. Total failure for conservatism.

Yep, you have been schooled but remain unable to learn! That is the fault of conservatism not government.

[johnaries]

39. Will, she may have a point here. The ONLY cons I've seen

"upset" are the politicians that are scared of losing their seat next year. Every other conservative I've seen is HAPPY that thousands of people died because it helps prove their point.

Besides, they were all under-privilaged, anyway. :sarcasm:

As far as whether or not the government CAN do a good job or not, even GWB praised Witt and FEMA during the 2000 debates:
" I have to pay the administration a compliment. James Lee Witt of FEMA has done a really good job of working with governors during times of crisis. "
http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2000a.html

So now that you have PROVEN the callousness and inhumanity of conservatives by noting they are happy - or at least "not upset" that thousands of people have died needlessly because it proves your political point, why should any of us who about CARE about PEOPLE care about anything you or any other conservative has to say?

[FlemingsGhost]

27. Just run for political office, already. (n/t)

Flem.

[linazelle]

28. Nice response, I learned something that I will share with others. nt

[johnaries]

29. If rescue operations were privatized, everyone would be forced

to sign a release form before they would be rescued. Don't want our Private relief companies getting sued! One of the big slowdowns with Katrina was the "paperwork" - how is privatizaion going to make that better?

Almost forgot - GOOD JOB, WILL!

[sandnsea]

34. Privatization FAILED

The reason there has been such a horrible response is that all the response has been outsourced to private corporations. There wasn't a government system in place, FEMA expected all these private companies to respond, either contracted or as part of their PR marketing. I've documented it for days now, we even ended up with our corporate airlines doing the airlift on Saturday, "The Department of Homeland Security, the Air Transport Association and the Department of Transportation today announced that the airline industry has launched “Operation Air Care” to provide emergency airlift to more than 25,000 New Orleans residents stranded in the wake of Hurricane Katrina."

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1346

Do you seriously think we needed corporate America to do this? No way.

They want people to believe government failed and corporate America and charities succeeded. The truth is, it's the exact opposite. If we hadn't finally sent in the NG and military, it would still be a disaster. You do know they also told first responders not to "self-dispatch". They purposely withheld government help in order to send in corporate help, and the corporate help just isn't enough.

[MindPilot]

40. Hey um, Will, why you gotta bang on Socal?

I don't think we are exactly the embodiment of privatization-is-good if that's what you are implying. In fact we've pretty much been on the bleeding edge of proving that's not the case.

Otherwise excellent piece!!