The question we need to get red-state-ish Americans to ask themselves -

[Skip Intro]

which is more important - the well-being of the bush regime or the well being of the nation?

substitute delay for bush for the TX *bots.

in other words- what's best for the nation, to continue to allow a criminal regime to retain and misue power to the detriment of the people, or to restore soem semblence of integrity.

If we can get them, the flag-waving bushies, to consider putting the nation above the tragic experience of the last five years - if we can get them to ponder....

If we can get them to think.....

It truly would be over. The nightmare, I think, barring extreme, fear-inducing, stealth-terror actions by the regime, would really be over.

Which is more important, at this point, as the regime sinks and the stench permeates - them, or the country?

[Imalittleteapot]

1. Sorry.

We can't get them to think.

[CBGLuthier]

2. Wow

For once a mostly positive post on the red state issue and then you come along and say that.

I really want to insult you but I have had enough for one day. Revel in your divisiveness. It is soooooo much help.

[tnlefty]

3. Perhaps I am at a loss as to why you view this as divisive.

It's been my experience. Get close to breaking through the cognitive dissonance about their "professed religion" then I hear comments such as 'I'll ask the preacher' or 'I'll bring that up in bible study class'. No facts allowed in the discussion and they'll come back from either of the aforementioned, with a whole new set of excuses as to why the facts don't matter.

The rest are either racist or greedy to the max, so your comment confuses me, who is in a very red area of a red state.

[Skip Intro]

6. What I'm trying to say, btw

is that if we could get "them" for lack of a better term, to realize that the ideals for which they wave flags and wear ribbons are being stomped on and dragged thru the ditch by those they swoon over...

IF - IF - we could get them to see it, and to question it, and to begin to ponder where this nation is and where it's heading under this criminal gang, and if we could get them to understand that that which they love is being tarnished and raped, as the charges against the regime begin to come about - if we could just get them to separate USA from bushco in thought, and to ponder to which their allegiance truly lies....

I'm doing a terrible job of expressing what I'm thinking....

[CBGLuthier]

8. No you did a good job

But some just can't let it be. they would rather insult people and wish for their deaths.

As I said in my just posted rant people are starting to see what monsters these bastards be. But call them names and wish for their deaths (not you) and they will turn their backs on us again.

[Skip Intro]

18. thanks

I save my distain for the criminal bush gang, and those who are up thier asses. Not my misled neighbors.

[tnlefty]

19. And perhaps what I'm stating poorly is that it doesn't matter how

much pointing out to "them" "that the ideals for which they wave flags and wear ribbons"...nor does it matter how much Bush** has bastardized Christianity, with help from Robertson, Falwell, Dobbs, etc., the facts of what is happening to the country doesn't matter!!! They see how it's being tarnished and raped and they still cling to Dimson**. They know he's a liar (about war) which flies in the face of the 10 commandments, they know he is the most corrupt president that we've ever had, and it doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter for the reasons that I mentioned: either they are racists, or greedy bastards who are doing just fine financially (or so they think), or because someone in a church has given them an excuse to overlook what is really going on in this country.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. Absent an intervention, this is how it works.

Stop worrying about what others think. Start worrying about what YOU think.

[tnlefty]

23. What???

I really don't understand. Why do you think that I'm worried about what others think, especially regarding this topic?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

25. I was afraid my post would be misinterpreted.

I was agreeing with you. My point with different words: Stop wasting time trying to convert people. Concentrate on your* own ideals.

*The universal "your."

Sorry for any inconvenience caused by my post, tnl.

[tnlefty]

26. No inconvenience, but I guess in a way I have to disagree with

you. I'm not trying to convert people, but I do try to make them see the disconnect, etc. While it may not work and "they" may continue to vote for policies that cut their throats as well as mine and those of "their" kids and mine, I'm not going down without a fight. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. Words won't do it.

We'll lead them, kicking and screaming, to a better world.

[CBGLuthier]

7. Red state bashing

is stupid and ignorant. More people voted for Bush in California, Illinois and many of the blue states than did in quite a few of the red states.

The WHOLE country is divided. Calling residents of red states stupid is, well, stupid and meets my definition of divisiveness.

I will call out every damn one of these ignorant foolish posts that I see. They are useless.

One "fine Duer" in another thread thought it would be funny if a red state were wiped out by an earthquake.

Please explain to me how wishing for the deaths of millions of people is going to help the cause.

I live in a state a hell of a lot redder than most and people here are pissed at Bush. But go ahead, tell them they are stupid and their religion too and see how fast they run right back to the right.

So your summation of your fellow citizens is they are foolish bible thumpers, racists, and greedy. Why I bet there aren't any people like that in magic wonderful blue state land where the poor eat steak and people of color are welcome everywhere.

[tnlefty]

13. I don't recall that in my post I wished for the deaths of any people

in a 'red state'. No, I will call them ignorant, stupid bible thumpers, racists and/or greedy as hell because they are my relatives, neighbors, etc. and I know them well. I'm not sure what 'tnlefty' means to you other than I'm in a very red area of a red state as I mentioned, you know the state that spit in the face of it's native son, Al Gore, for the supremo Dimson** that we currently have...your point?

[chalky]

5. Have you had a conversation with a "red stater"? Cognitive Dissonance

is a real barrier.
If you have an effective barrier-buster, I'd be happy to hear about it.

[CBGLuthier]

9. Well gee whiz chalky

I have conversations with red staters every day of my life. Why they just wipe the shit off their shoes, those that wear shoes, and we all jus' talk about jesus an' guns all day long.

But seriously, whenever the issue turns to the political climate, time and again I get them to agree with me that this country is headed in the wrong direction.

Yeah I have a barrier buster. Try not talking down to people and respect their viewpoints just a little bit more.

[chalky]

11. "Try not talking down to people"? Way to lead by example.

Your assumption that I "talk down to them" is pretty presumptuous.

[fiveleafclover]

10. Point is...

when you say "red-stater" and act like everybody who lives in a red state is stupid and voted for Bush...well, that pisses some of us off. Like those of us who live in red states and are NOT stupid and DIDN'T vote for Bush.

[chalky]

12. Guess what? I live in TEXAS. And I'm not the one who brought up the

red-state term. Thus my use of quotes.

[fiveleafclover]

14. Sorry, in my confusion

I must have replied to the wrong person. Or I'm just stupid. Probably a little of both.

[tlsmith1963]

24. Huh?

How is that post divisive? It's pretty obvious that conservatives put the well-being of their party over the well-being of the nation. We see it time & again. They have to *know* that the neocons are running this country into the ground. It's so obvious. And yet they keep Bush propped up because they don't want their party to lose any power. It's pathetic, & the whole country is suffering because of it. It's not divisive--it's the truth.

Tammy

[willing dwarf]

4. You are right...

I suspect we need to understand without emotion the manipulation laid on the red-state by Ralph Reed & the Christian Coalition people. Getting inside that reality, and understand what are the major motivators to make someone like Bush seem like the good choice...then pushing that thinking to it's logical next steps -- as you have done here--is a good way to move forward.

This divide isn't going to go away without compassion and genuine interest in actually moving forward (rather than pointing fingers and calling names) coming from the left.

I commend you for thinking about it!

[Skip Intro]

17. yep. thanks

very much

[Skip Intro]

15. THE POINT - (Most people are GOOD at heart)

and thanks to those who at least are willing to entertain that there might be a point, is that we really are talking about human beings (for the most part, I suspect).

I'm not talking about the over the edge kooks who would help steal an election or stage an event to obstruct democracy, like the sick bastards shouting, "stop the recount" in FL in 2000.

I'm talking about so called "middle America." I'm talking about who I feel are mostly good folks who have been (willfully) dazzled and animated and motivated by the red, white and blue choreography of the right. Those people that have been suckered in by shiny packaging bearing symbols they hold dear. THose people. The right-wing masses. Easily manipulated, but not stupid people, not bad people.

Again, I don't mean the bitch at the repuke convention with the purple-heart bandaid on her chin. I mean the good-hearted masses - most people are good (for lack of a better word) and most people mean well. I believe that.

We've been divided by professional dividers who've learned that their own selfish well being can be Capitalized upon by turning American against American, neighbor against neighbor. Most people are good.

We just need to get them to think.

IF we can - IF we can get them to see the reality of what's become of us under this regime....There is something there worth trying to reach, and if we can get to them...I can't imagine what might be possible.

I'll stop now.

[Broken_Hero]

16. Its hard to do...

Especially with the more hardnosed Bush supporters. The hard nosed Bush supporters i deal with on a daily basis, still do not accept that anything is Bush's fault, so how can you get people to think that the Bush regime is doing anything wrong? And remember, there are quite a few hard nosed Bush supporters. I am in SW Missouri, ks, ok, and ar are right next to me, i am surronded by a lot of rural people, most of them are decent folks, yet most of them support Bush, and still do to this day, the only thing they complain about is the high prices of gas/diesal, so how can you talk some sense into them? I can't, they can't fathom, or believe that the WH is doing things that will harm our nation, most cannot believe that, and wont. But, on the other hand a very select few do, but most of them are Dems, during last years election in my county, 7000 plus voted for Bush, about 1500 voted for Kerry, this is a very red county, and yet, there is unwavering support for Bush...

I dont' know what more i can talk or say to these people, i try, i don't talk down to them, i try to reason with them, and the main block i face is this "I cannot believe that our government, WH, GWB, would knowingly do anything like that." Usually i retort things Nixon, and Reagan did, but that usually doesnt jarr any second guessing...in my experience, until something very real happens to these Bush Supporters, the support will still be strong, but again, the gas issue, is something that most Bush supporters are upset about.

[insane_cratic_gal]

20. We are the Purple States of America

now can we all just get along and get these cronies out of office?

[Broken_Hero]

21. Yeah, i hope we can

get these cronies out of office...:) damn, my homestate is more red, but Missouri is pretty purple. As a matter of fact, i was surprised that Missouri/Arkansas were close in the elections last year, i thought for sure, a bigger majority would go for GWB, but the final numbers caught me off guard.