Family feels misled by recruiter - NH college student being sent to Iraq

[Mr_Spock]

Kingston student to be sent to Iraq

By Jenna Russell, Globe Staff | October 10, 2005

KINGSTON -- Brian Shepard thought he had the perfect plan: a special program, offered by a Marine Corps recruiter last spring, that would let him finish four years of college before he faced active duty.

Instead, the 18-year-old was notified last week -- less than one month into his freshman year at New Hampshire Technical Institute -- that his Marine Reserve unit will be sent to Iraq early next year, a development that Shepard said his recruiter never told him was possible.

A Marine spokesman said recruiters make no guarantees to enlistees about their deployment. The enlistment paperwork signed by Shepard stated he would have to leave college if his unit was activated, according to the spokesman.

...

This is some serious bullshit - stories like this will make many kids avoid the military like they avoid telemarketers...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/10/10/family_feels_misled_by_recruiter/

[Dark]

1. That is what so many kids don't realize. The recruiters are salesmen,

and will lie like salesmen.

When I was in high school, a guy from the navy (I think) talked with our class. Mostly, it was just about his experiences in Vietnam. But he told us at the end of class to talk with him before signing anything regarding enlistment, cause the recruiters will do what's best for them, not best for you.

I'm not saying recruiters are bad people, but they do work for commission, so they are going to try to get what's best for them, and with current recruitment rates so low. . .

P.S. I was a telemarketer. :-)

[MADem]

143. Correction: recruiters do NOT work on commission

All recruiters in the field get, in addition to their salaries which are based on their paygrade, what is called SDAP (special duty assignment pay) and it truly is not worth the hassle--you do just as well with isolated duty pay, sea pay, or overseas allowances. They get reimbursed if they buy a kid a meal or a coke, as well.

Most recruiters are NOT volunteers. They choose people who are on a career track, who have a very good record in their chosen specialty, and force them to do a salesman's job, under pain of losing all they have invested thus far in their careers. There is a small group of "career recruiters" but these people are a very small minority of the total recruiting force. Most recruiters have regular operational or support jobs in their respective service, and in order to learn the game, they are sent to a crash course in recruiting prior to assuming their jobs.

Recruiters ARE on "quota" though. If they do not make their quota, they are ordered to work harder, and threatened with bad evaluations that can affect their promotion potential as well as their follow-on assigments when they are finally freed from the slavery of recruiting.

What you see coming out of recruiters is a combination of fear and desperation on their part, engendered by harsh supervision from their superiors, which produces a "say ANYTHING" sales technique.

[SunDrop23]

2. The recruiters job is to do WHATEVER they have to so you will sign.

They are worse than telemarketers and used car salesmen because there are no rules of engagement with them. What a bunch of scumbags.

[okieinpain]

3. try telling that to my stupid kid. he can't get it out of his head that he

needs the money. I keep asking him how hard does he think it will be going to school with no legs.

[Craig3410]

211. Remind him that the money is IN NO WAY GUARANTEED.

http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0506/050607.htm

57% of Military Personnel Who Signed Up Have Received Nothing

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/reallyget.html

Only 35% of all program participants have received any benefits at all! Two-thirds of Montgomery GI Bill participants are paying nonrefundable deposits of $1200 without receiving a dime in return!

[okieinpain]

280. thanks I'll show that to him.

[Kralizec]

4. Disgusting. (eom)

[sleipnir]

5. I always say, trust a recruiter like you trust a smarmy used car salesman.

Actually, there's very little difference.

They both are self-serving, capitalistic whores, who have no regard for anything beyond their own bottom line.

Recruiters really give the armed forces a bad name. But, sales are slow these days and that's when the big lies come out.

[goddess40]

145. smarmy used car salesman - that can kill you

or get you killed

[Angry Girl]

6. He may be able to get out. Check out these websites...

Particularly this first one:

Getting Out of the Delayed Enlistment Program
http://www.objector.org/girights/delayed-enlistment-program.html

Before you enlist....
http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

How To Stay Out of the Military: A Primer On Draft Resistance
http://nodraftnoway.org/about.shtml

Nightweed's Hurricane Katrina Aid Organizations

[babylonsister]

11. Thanks for these links; I've sent them on to my

friends with sons.

[MADem]

146. The kid has already signed, though

He is not in DEP, or in the pipeline to taking the oath. He is enlisted, with a specialty, and through boot camp, from what I understood.

Once you sign, it's far more difficult. Like it or not, the onus is on the ENLISTEE, not the recruiter. The 1066 form is very clear on this.

I'm not trying to be difficult, here, but it is far, FAR more difficult to get out after you have taken initial entry training. DEP is a different story.

[opihimoimoi]

7. Another number for the Bush Squad of Pawns risking life and limb for lies

[Name removed]

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[Mr_Spock]

10. Welcome to DU

:hi:

So why did you join the Marines?

[Name removed]

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[Salviati]

15. yeah, I don't think they work for commission...

But, they do have quotas to meet, and if they aren't cutting it stateside as a recruiter, perhaps they'd be more "useful" over in Iraq. I've got no doubt that there are plenty of scrupulously ethical recruiters out there, I just don't believe that they're in that job for very long. The main problem is that the recruiting policies have giant ethical loopholes in them, and thus it's unsurprising that the system aggregates the unethical, as they'd make very "effective" requiters.

[Name removed]

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[Salviati]

30. Right, but having someone in authority

Someone who is supposed to represent an organization which prides respect, honor, and integrety, make "promises" to recruits that the recruiter knows will broken without a moments consideration if it is in the interest of the military is really unethical.

I agree that it's the duty of anyone signing up to be fully informed, I just wish that part of that information wasen't that there are many recruiters that WILL lie to you to get you to sign up.

[Name removed]

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[stanwyck]

93. what you are supplying is very

inaccurate information, throughout your many posts. My son is a Marine, just back from his second tour in Iraq. Marines don't wash out. I'm not sure what conditions the Army has, but I know the Navy has a time period when a recruit can decide they made a mistake and leave. Not so the Marines. It's almost impossible to leave boot camp, except for severe injury. Just ask my co-worker's son, who was at Parris Island for eight months before finally, after his Marine pilot father pulled strings, receiving a medical discharge. He wanted out desperately. He wasn't able, physically or mentally, to complete the 13 weeks of boot camp. So your fable of washed out Marines decrying their deficiencies is just that, a fable.
During the recruiting stage, promises are made about what the recruit's MOS will be. Training is offered, special schools...but what is really needed right now are boots on the ground. I work with two former Marines. One was trained for airframe, the other as an MP. Both ended up, the same as my son, in combat platoons. What is promised at the recruiting center is, under this regime, negligible.
But face it, that is not what these young people are being told. That's the point. You seem to have missed it.
Here are a couple of tips: Check what you're saying before you post. (it's hard to follow your thoughts with so many spelling and grammar errors). And don't blame "a lawyer" for your reluctance to share tobacco with your fellow soldiers. Trial lawyers are not the enemy. You're giving yourself away with these gaffes.

[Name removed]

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[stanwyck]

135. You were a Marine?

I sure didn't pick that up from your posts. None of my son's fellow recruits were sent home. (you must have a high school diploma to be a Marine...so you're being a Marine baffles me). You stay at Parris Island, even if you break your leg, as one recruit did, until you complete your training. You're right, fellow Marines are not soldiers. But I can't get my head around you're being a Marine. There are requirements.

[LAV-25]

137. Yes

And I would be happy to compare post Marine Corps credentials with you anyday.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ArkDem]

16. >I've never heard of anyone in the military working for commission.

Tell them that at OCS.....;)

[Name removed]

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[Toots]

24. Play on words "working for Commission" An officer becoming commissioned

You of course meant money but a reward is still a reward even if it is not monotary. Have you ever heard of a phrase "CYA"? Every officer in the military participates in it. You sound like a rare person that has no trust in any person in the USA. You are probably correct to have that opinion as Americans have a long history of being untruthful especially in the military....

[Name removed]

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[MADem]

148. They don't. See my post, above. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

9. I guess the recruiters can say pretty much any BS that they want.

I think you have to read the fine print on the enlistment forms if you want to know what the real deal is.

[kenny blankenship]

12. Just say NO! (it's the only safe approach)

No no no--and yell at them to get out of your face. Don't let them talk, or wheedle you. Cut them off immediately and tell them you'll call for police if they don't let you and your family alone.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

13. That's merely SOP for the military

No surprise, and no recourse. I'm afraid they'll just have to deal with it.

[Ready4Change]

19. It takes two.

- Someone naive enough to believe that, in joining the military, they won't put you into combat if they think that's needed, no matter what a recruiter said.

and

- A recruiter willing to spin that fact.

When Iraq is the first story in any news program you can see, above the fold headlines in any newspaper, and a regular topic of conversation, you've got to be a real moron not to view a recruiters promises with a little suspicion.

See the recruiter as a wolf and the signee as an innocent lamb if you will. But that innocent lamb should have been had his/her eyes more open.

[Toots]

20. Recruiters LIE......Duh...

Whatever.......Are Americans truly this ignorant?

[Name removed]

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[Toots]

25. Do you trust your squad leader but not your recruiter?

You seem inconsistant in your beliefs. either you don't trust people or you do, which is it?

[Name removed]

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[Toots]

35. I notice you didn't respond to the CYA question

It was my experience that every officer in the military participated in that policy and it wasn't by being truthful...I personally watched the LIES unfold and although that was forty years ago I am sure not much has changed.

[Name removed]

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[Toots]

223. Cover your ass...you know cook the books..fix the intelligence..whatever

it takes to cover your ass. Inspection sheets altered, parts confiscated for inspection and then sent back. LIE your ass off so as not to get gigged. Every Officer engaged in this practice and I am sure still do and we can see all the evidence of this attitude in the Administration....

[LAV-25]

227. You Mean Like

How they covered their butts by planting WMD's? Or how they cook the books so they reach recruiting goals everytime?

[Toots]

262. Are you pleased we are over there killing Iraqis?

You sound like a complete apologist for this Cabal that is in power. Are you suggesting that officers do not "fix" things so as not to fail an inspection or review? The point about WMDs in the first place is well made. They are non existent all a LIE a matter of "fixed intelligence" The way they are "fixing" the recruitment goals is by lowering both the numbers and the standards. Yes they are being "fixed" and if you were an honest person yourself you would both recognize and acknowledge the facts.

[Name removed]

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[Toots]

279. You want their failure to LIE to fix their LIE to absove them of LYING

Their failure to plant WMDs does not absolve them of Lying about the WMDs in the first place. If you have been paying any attention at all you would be aware that military recruitment goals have been lowered for the last four months in a row and still they were unable to meet them. Also now because they are unable to meet their goals they are lowering eligibility rules as well. Now you can be over 26 years old and no longer need a high school diploma. You are being purposely obtuse it would appear probably only to build your post count. Your ideas won't do well here so I don't know why you bother. I don't mind you being here as I don't really feel you are disruptive but quite evasive and uninformed.

[Mr_Spock]

26. Read what the family was told:

"Maura Shepard said she asked the man twice if her son definitely could finish college, and that he replied yes. She said the recruiter never explained that the four-year delayed option was only for Marines training to be officers, and that if her son failed to qualify for the officer training, he would lose his shot at a delayed entry.

Her husband, David Shepard, who was away on business in Morocco when the recruiter first visited, met him later and was given the same assurances, he said.

The young man did not rush to a decision. With his parents still cautious about the military, he applied to colleges and talked with a family friend who had been a Marine. The recruiter kept calling, offering him money for college, and inviting Brian Shepard to join a rigorous training session in the snow.

''I liked it because it was a challenge," said Brian Shepard, who played high school football. ''I've always liked a challenge. I liked what the Marines stood for. I thought it was a great deal. And I trusted him."

[Name removed]

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[Mr_Spock]

40. "lead me to believe he wasn't brite enough to realize he blew it."

lol - you sure are ready to blame the kid for being duped by the recruiter and now you are implying that he was stupid as well.

And he would want to be involved in an organization that thinks this poorly about their recruits - why???

[Name removed]

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[uncle ray]

77. so it's ok that the dumb ones get shipped off for cannon fodder?

okay, got it!

[Name removed]

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[jbnow]

271. What is brite?

Word unknown and I am pretty bright.

[Mr_Spock]

274. Lite-brite - it's a game.

My kids used to enjoy it a lot :D

[jbnow]

287. If Marines could give me that

I would enlist myself.

[CBGLuthier]

275. bright, for lhe love of, it's spelled bright

Sorry but when discussing intelligence it looks really bad to misspell the word bright.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

284. The product is called "Lite Brite."

It's misspelled on purpose.

Edit: Sorry, I thought you were replying to the Lite-Brite poster.

[CBGLuthier]

285. no , I know lite bright

But I had one of the original ones not that shiny one that was posted. :-)

What was cooler was, I think it was called, the astrolight. It was a tabletop and you connected tubes and cones and stuff made out of clear plastic and it had a color wheel to change the colors.

[Liberal Dose]

119. If you don't pass the ASVAB you don't make it in at all. The ASVAB is for

enlisted only.

[LAV-25]

124. But

Well of course he would have to have a college degree before he would even be considered for OCS.

[Liberal Dose]

131. You have obviously never heard of STA-21

[LAV-25]

134. Nope

Never have.

[Liberal Dose]

140. Commissioning Program. Navy. H.S. diploma or GED are the only education

requirements. Since it's the Dept. of the Navy, the Marines are probably eligible also. If not, they should be since their checks are clearly issued by THE DEPT. OF THE NAVY.

[LAV-25]

142. Right

But don't these programs require you become enlisted while you're enrolled? Sounds like this guy should have gone ROTC...maybe that is what he didn't qualify for. I don't understand why he would have gone reserves if his goal was to become an officer.

[Liberal Dose]

147. No matter what the circumstances are surrounding this particular case,

recruiters need to stop lying in order to meet quotas. Maybe if the draft was reinstated, some of these idiots who voted for war would be forced to send their kids off to fight it. Most likely their children would be like our sweet little college Republicans and support the war from afar while hiding from it at some university.

[Mr_Spock]

151. "sweet little college Republicans"

Yeah, we love our sweet little chickenhawk cowards don't we - they're just so cute and adorable :evilgrin:

[LAV-25]

156. Ahhh

I'm a grown man Mr. Spock...I did my service, I've done my college...and you, you've done what? Held up a sign and walked around in circles? Call people names for doing something you never did or would do no matter the cause.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. This is not starship troopers

and citizenship is not granted by military service

It takes a lot to stand up and disent when a war is popular. It is getting increasingly easier, but a citizen knows it is his or her duty to point out the problems with his or her goverment... and we shall continue to do it. I stand side by side with those who have never served... and if you opose this war, so should you... and MANY vets opsose this war.

[Mr_Spock]

160. A-ha!, So now it comes out - generically insult REPUBLICAN students...

and you get all bent out of shape. This board is for Democrats & progressives & liberals - not RW appologists.

I wasn't talking about you in that post! I see you fell into that trap hook, line and sinker... :D

[LAV-25]

163. Fell for what?

I'm not allowed here if I don't share the same views as most of the posters here? That's sort of strange...not very progressive either. How can you be progressive if you're surrounded by status quo?

[Mr_Spock]

166. Not true - but you have not once taken a progressive viewpoint

...and have been asked repeatedly to show any non-Republican credentials - you have so far declined to deny that you are a Republican.

[LAV-25]

170. How

How do I show non-republican credentials? I'm an atheist...does that help?

[Mr_Spock]

175. So is Pat Buchanan

lol - I'm not going to fall for that stereotype. I'm a big fan of Jesus, but that doesn't make me a Republican :rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. Pat is catholic, fyi

[Mr_Spock]

186. I heard recent;y that Pat was an atheist? Who else could they have been

talking about? I was sure they were talking about him. Hmmmm, it'll come to me eventually. It was a prominent Republican strategist who I heard was an atheist. Not that a Catholic is any better to the fundamentalist protestant zealots who claim to control the moral high-ground in the Repuke party (and the country as a whole for that matter)...

[LAV-25]

192. Mr. Spock

You aren't sounding very Christian like. Nothing worse than someone who spreads sin all week and prays it away on Sunday.

[Mr_Spock]

198. What did I say that was anti-Christian my friend?

Oh, BTW, I don't agree with the Church BTW, I simply think Jesus had the best moral code of anybody. He also destroyed the money-changers hang-out in a protest. I'm not passive, I just try to be moral. What did I say that was an issue for you?

[LAV-25]

210. Very Critical

You are very critical and not very accepting of others. Which is fine...but not if you claim to be a Christian. I am a lot like you...believe in Christian values but am pretty sure I'm just going to die when I die. I don't need to be bribed to do good in this World.

[Mr_Spock]

220. No, I am debating your repeated recitals of Right Wing talking points

I am just trying to understand how you can not question certain things now that you are out of the service. You are allowed - and so am I!!

That's what I love about this country - we are free to express ourselves any way we want to! Some fight for that freedom, but the majority simply enjoys the benefits of a great document known as the Constitution. There is nothing within the Constitution that states that we must be in constant conflict. Service is voluntary in this country. Live Free or Die is the NH state motto. I can just as easily say what the righties say and feel just as good about it as anybody - because it's my country as much as yours. Love it or leave it :D

[LAV-25]

230. I was

I was happy for the support I received when I returned home from the Gulf. I don't know how I would feel coming home from Iraq now....especially seeing some of the stuff I see here. Most of the guys I served with did it out of selflessness and goodness. A lot of things happen in combat that are horrible and beyond one's control... you know it and you certainly don't need somebody back home that doesn't know crap about it stuffing it back in your face.

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. Hate the war, support the warrior

what is so difficult to get about it?

By teh way the hoo hah was gone within six months, my hubby mised it... and this time around even the press was there...

[LAV-25]

234. Cannot Separate

They are inseperable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. Yes you can, it is done all the time

another myth of the right


Look I hate this war with a passion, I supported my husband and I send Care packages to the troops in theater and get phone cards for troops in the hospital, I respect the warrior and will defend the warrior but can can hate the war. So how much of real support of the troops like scream bloody murder when bush tried to CUT hazard pay to 120 did you do?

A yellow ribbon is not support

Oh and beng quiet and non critical is not suporting the troops

[Mr_Spock]

244. Nope, we support the warrior and NOT the war. Any fool can separate those

two. If you cannot separate the war from the warrior, then you do not understand history very well or how not to repeat it. If only the warriors had known when to question their superiors, oh, if only. Millions of people have died unnecessarily because of this failing. We are doing OUR best to help those in Iraq who would question this war have a VOICE that can help them get out of that hell. We are doing more that the rah-rah zombies to help GET THESE KIDS HOME SAFELY. If you can't see that we are helping to give the thousands there who DO NOT support this ILLEGAL war a voice, then who is truly not a soul who understands the true message of Jesus. I feel sorry for you - you need to go to some of the links supplied in this post and LEARN. Read about Strauss and the PNAC followers of this philosophy. A philosophy also embraced by Hitler. Until you understand the motives of the people who started this unnecessary conflict, you cannot indeed understand how we can claim so definitively that it is truly illegal and immoral. Please educate yourself - you will be glad you did.

[LAV-25]

177. Well

I don't know...what would Jesus do to figure out whether or not I'm a Republican. Maybe you can pray on it or something. Or is it prey. I don't know.

[Mr_Spock]

193. Yep, you are prey.

:D

We fight with the pen here - you're doing pretty good for a DU rookie :rofl:

[Liberal Dose]

173. I thought it was obvious that LAV-25 was a Freeper. If he's trying to hide

it, he's doing a terrible job! :hi:

[Name removed]

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[Mr_Spock]

288. Poor LAV-25 was sent to that lavatory - permanently

:D

[LAV-25]

152. I Don't Know

I'm glad I was in an all volunteer force. Not too many in the Senate voted against the war regardless of which side of the isle they were on. The only difference is that some seem to understand that you cannot undo what has been done while others do not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. You do know of the PNAC plan

and you also realize that lying to Congress is an impeachable offense, right? And congress was lied to.

[Occulus]

286. If you are promised something,

and join based upon that promise or those promises, and then discover they are summarily revoked (or were never there in the first place), and you want to get out because you've been lied to... do those things make you no longer a "volunteer"?

I guess what I'm asking you is, is it possible to you to have someone voluntarily join and then, after betrayal has already occurred, no longer consider themselves there "voluntarily"?

I think the idea of "you signed on the dotted line, so no matter how we break our promises to you, you're still a volunteer" is just plain silliness. I also think the idea that a common soldier cannot- ever- question their leaders' orders or actions is also plain silly. You can't turn off the human mind.

I'd think any soldier serving today ought to be able to argue that they signed up under false pretenses. Anyone who wants out gets out. Period. This administration will not keep its promises to our military forces.

---

I don't hold anything at all against anyone serving in our military. My rancor is reserved for the policymakers and the civilian military leadership.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Oh com'on every time we raise this issue

some here scream, NO DRAFT, we have one already, called the poverty draft

[LAV-25]

162. Not True

I wasn't from a poor family. A lot of the guys I served with weren't from poor families. I actually served with a guy....no lie, that was in drug re-hab with Steven Stills. I don't think his family was poor. We never believed him...one day he presented free tickets and back stage passes...we believed him then.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. My hubby served with the son of a very rich man

and he will tell you, in 20 years, he was the excpetion... it is lower middle class and the poor who fill our EM ranks, and middle class and lower that fill our officer ranks. When was the last time you saw the son of a president lead the troops in the front lines? Hells bells when was the last time a President lost a son in combat?

So don't give me that shit, ok... some of us have been around the block a couple times... what we have is a poverty draft.

[LAV-25]

168. My Dad

My Dad served with one of the sons of Smith and Wesson. I forget which one it was. Hmm Reagan was the last President that actaully had a son. I can't even think of a President that would have had a son who would be of right age. There was Kennedy but his boy(s) would have been too young. What about Johnson?

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. Last president to loose a son

was FDR... and last time I checked the bush family has a bunch of kids of military age, so when are they are joining and going over there? Think of the morale booster if Jenna had to stand guard on the wire, or the son of Governor bush, what is he doing? He is of prime military age.

We have a poverty draft, some people of money do serve, but they are the exception, not the rule

[Liberal Dose]

187. Jeb's son is too busy getting arrested for public drunkenness or something

similar. They're busy people, you know!

[LAV-25]

194. Yeah

Smokin dubes with Gore's kid in the Ivy League:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

199. The issue is that the daughers and the nephew of

the president are of military age, what are they still doing here? If the war is so critical, why are they still civilians? And gore did NOT start this war, last time I checked... and he was in the disaster zone after Katrina hit FASTER than the sitting president who was still on vacation... so that nice strawman went nowhere... what is next but clinton?

[Mr_Spock]

206. Yeah, well CLINTON, FLAG, PATRIOTISM, CLINTON, CLENIS, CLENIS

CLENIS, CLENIS!! Damn you! :evilgrin:

[Liberal Dose]

204. You claim that you don't know what a Freeper is, yet you keep giving these

fine examples. :shrug:

[LAV-25]

207. Well

Maybe I am a freeper but don't know it. Do you have a definition for the word?

[Mr_Spock]

209. A Republican site like this one

...called Free Republic. They like to come over here and harass us from time to time. They are funny in special ways :D

[Liberal Dose]

212. Special indeed

:rofl: You are much kinder than I could ever be, Mr. Spock.

[LAV-25]

213. Hmmmm

Maybe I should go over there...you people give me a headache and cut back on my productivity for the man.

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. We just like to challenge people to think

so THINK on yuor own, be an INDEPENDENT thinker, so far the talking points from FOX are clear, granted if all you watch is Corporate owned media, it is understandable

So start by readying the PNAC plan and the Constitution

[LAV-25]

221. Please tell me

How is it you encourage independent thought here...I've been run down for having a different point of view on some issues?

[nadinbrzezinski]

226. We have given you data

we have told you that you are free to critize your gov'ment

When yuo are a grunt you are not

When yuo are out you can

Look first things first is READ the PNAC plan... that is your first step to enlightnemment and you have not heard of it on the teeevee and there are good reasons (from the power structure that is) why you have not, given you the links too, go read

[Liberal Dose]

222. Go on over and give your point of view on any thread. If you agree with

them, you're good to go. If your point of view differs (even slightly), they will recommend that you come here. Best of luck to you! Let us know how it goes. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

197. I know I know

there was a time the judge would give him a choice, jail or the marines... he is too well connected for that

[Weembo]

190. Moran

Bush Sr. had a son -- but he had already skirted out of service.

[LAV-25]

200. Hmm

You were shot down in the Pacific and nearly captured and were now in a position to do something for your son....what would you do?

[nadinbrzezinski]

202. If I believe in the war

have my son fight the war... I did

[Liberal Dose]

208. I sure as hell wouldn't force someone else's son into combat duty in

Vietnam so my son could "jump the line" and take his place in the National Guard!!!! You apologists never cease to amaze me.

[LAV-25]

215. Would You

Would you support someone who burned their draft card and went to Canada which intimately led someone else to take their place?

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. We will have that qusetion soon

hell it is already here, with some troops who have gone north and have asked for poltical asylum

now the defintion of a chicken hawk is that man who loves war and sends others to it, but refused to participate in the effort when he had the chance... rush, sean and george, as well as dick fit this description

[LAV-25]

224. I don't know

I hope we never go through 100 years of peace because by that standard nobody will be able to justly defend this nation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. When we are attacked

and we were on Sept 11 by 17 Saudis, one Egyptian and one Barhrani, people will defend...

Why did we attack Iraq?

Why didn't we finish the job at Tora Bora?

Why haven't we gone after the Saudis?

Why have we left all Saudi Bases (one of OBLs demands)?

Why have we not plainly said that the House of Saud pushes adn fiannces terra?

Why did bush first partner in Arbusto Oil was Salem Bin LAdin (who died in a plane crash)

Why was one of the members of the bin ladin family sitting at a meeting on 9.11 with George Bush in DC?

Why did dubya stay seated down when teh attack went down?

Many questions... read the pnac plan some answers are in there

[Liberal Dose]

228. Someone who burned their draft card and went to Canada did not refuse to

fight in a war they claimed to support. Bad comparison. Try again. :)

[LAV-25]

233. Did Bush Sr.

Did Bush or Bush Sr. support the Viet Nam war? It was Kennedy's war, then Johnson even though most would have you believe Nixon started it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

235. First off the first advisors in Nam were on teh ground in 1956

so that does not make it Kennedy's war, but Ike's war, if we are going to nitpick

Second off, Bush Sr suported the Vietnam War.

[LAV-25]

237. Source Please

I don't know how anyone would know that. He wasn't a Senator at that time was he?

[nadinbrzezinski]

240. For who Ike

he was the president, and Bush senior aproved of the war as did Junior

Oh and here is a chronology

http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm

[LAV-25]

241. Looks Like

Looks like the bogus Gulf of Tonklin attack occured while Kennedy was President to me. Ike declared support.

[Liberal Dose]

242. Then look again. Johnson is the one who lied about the Gulf of Tonkin

[LAV-25]

246. Yep Sorry

My bad

[Liberal Dose]

248. Maybe your reading comprehension skills need brushing up. You also failed

to comprehend that Eisenhower was the first to involve the U.S. in Vietnam. :D

[LAV-25]

249. Yeah well

If you consider him responsible for what it eventually escalated to you are asking me to reach a little further than I'm willing to.

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. He started the invovement, not Kennedy, not LBJ

if he had not, the whole Nam debacle might have never occurred... see that is the point... when countries get involved in things like this at times they decide that they cannot loose... and teh US never understood that the war was not a communist threat but a damn civil war, and war of independence against foreign ocupation

[Liberal Dose]

254. I didn't say that, and neither did anyone else. I will admit that Johnson

lied in order to further the "cause" in Vietnam, but you and your kind will never admit that the Idiot Son of an Asshole now squatting in the Oval Office lied us into Iraq.

[LAV-25]

255. Lied Us

What do you mean Us...you serving in Iraq right now?

[Liberal Dose]

256. Now you're being deliberately obtuse.

Try this http://www.freerepublic.com
You'll feel more comfortable there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

257. Presenting false information to Congress is

contempt of congress and an impeachable offense

The president also lied to the AMERICAN people, funny thing happened on the way to the theater, he lied to me, to you, to every troop over there, to the US House to the US Senate... he works for us, not us for him... and for his lies he should be impeached.

What is so hard about this concept for you to understand

We the people are in charge, not him, we the people.

I guess the US Constitution is a communist and subversive document too

You took an oath to defend and protect it against enemies both foreign and domestic, guess where these liars are? In the domestic category.

[LAV-25]

258. So

Let me get this straight...are you guys coming from an anti-government point or just this administration. I'm pretty sure the p[previous administration sent some missiles into Iraq to taker out weapons sites. I'm also sure the Senate including the bi-partisan intelligence committee was for this. Also do you realize that WMD's was not the only case for going into Iraq but was only one of many? Do you put your trust in the UN?

[nadinbrzezinski]

261. The casus belli given to Congress and the American

People WERE WMDS... read the damn Resolution (as well as the UN you seem to hate too)

that is the casus belli, they were not found under international law the war is illegal

And if this was a democrat in the WH I would be just as critical, or have you forgotten who took to the streets during the Nam war? It wasn't the right, it was the left.

We have also invovled ourselves in torture which is a direct violation of a 1997 US Law, passed by both houses (and the UN Genocide Convention)

I could go on

[Mr_Spock]

266. You're firing rounds in every direction now. Can you not respond to reason

?

Nobody here is anti-government - where the HECK did you get that crazy idea? We elected a moron and he did illegal things - now he has to go. Simple. That's why it is a government OF, BY and FOR the PEOPLE!!

So what if Clinton shot missles into Iraq, what does that have to do with a conflict that will be killing American soldiers for decades (according to Cheney)?

Yeah, I like the progression of reasons from this bunch of criminals - what a sorry bunch we got in the WH - quite sickening if you ask me. What IS the latest excuse for this death-fest?

I'm not even going to play the UN game - this is getting silly...

[Mr_Spock]

259. Excellent points all...

I'm sitting here waiting for a solid argument against the logic many here have set forth in this post. No more flag and honor arguments, this is America, we are more than just jingoism. Are we getting anywhere here or just spinning our wheels?

[nadinbrzezinski]

264. I think I see some gears moving

but I am not sure yet

[Mr_Spock]

268. Perhaps we could use a can of WD-40?

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

270. I think he decided to no longer play

:-)

[Mr_Spock]

272. Well, perhaps he'll study up for a while and come back better prepared

I really wish that we could have a manditory "critical political thinking and discourse" class for all Americans. Heck, if we can have a draft and force people to serve, why can't we have a requirement that people educate themselves in how to apply what they learn in civics class?

[nadinbrzezinski]

273. They still have a civics class?

True story my nephews from a previous marriage graduaetd from HS witout ever readying the Constituion. They got a copy from me, each.

[Mr_Spock]

276. I dunno - my kids aren't old enough for that yet.

I guess I'll find out. I know I went to civics class. I thought it was goofy at the time :rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

243. Point is our involvement in SE Asia DID NOT start with

Kennedy, started with Ike, get over it, you were corrected.. IKE started it.

Now he also warned about the industrial military complex, and history has proven him right.

[Liberal Dose]

239. BOTH George Bushies supported the Vietnam war, and Eisenhower was the

first to send troops to Vietnam, and that was DURING the Korean war.

[greblc]

293. This Marine and Gulf war Vet would...

Every young person has to make choices for themselves and live with the consequences. You and I chose to enlist in the Corps. GWB chose a Military path that evaded combat. Who is more cowardice the person who admits his fear and faces the consequences or the person who uses privilage and aviods danger but plays the hero.

Your a Marine, I know what your opinion of Air National Guard is.

[Liberal Dose]

178. That's why I joined. It looked like a great way to earn money while

getting OJT and building a college fund. I wouldn't trade my "poverty draft" experience for the world, but I truly believe that going to fight in this war is obeying an unlawful order. If I was still enlisted, I would adhere to the UCMJ and disobey it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

181. Same reason my hubby joined

go figure he staid in for 20 years... but you know there is no poverty draft...

And yes the experiences you don't trade... and some sailors are now refusing to deploy, as well as soldiers and Marines, if they go out quietly they are just released, if they make a stink, jail time

[LAV-25]

183. Sailors Refusing

Sailors refusing to deploy...now that's funny except our good brothers, the Corpsmen. Love those guys.

[Liberal Dose]

184. Yep, the Marines already have a few good men - Navy Corpsmen

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. and Marines are the only sailors who cannot spell Navy

so the joke goes....

Of course the only good marine is a submarine.

And we could go on these puns all day long

Oh my fav, drives my niece nuts, the AF is a nie to five job

[Liberal Dose]

195. LOL...the one I hated was the so-called definition of a squid: the lowest

form of Marine life (to which I always replied, "where was your check issued?")

[LAV-25]

196. I can't believe

I have never heard that!!

[Liberal Dose]

201. Could be because you're still a youngster

[greblc]

294. All I can say is your turn in the barrel...

[LAV-25]

189. Docs were great

We had a Doc that used to give the lightweights M@M's to help them get over their weak minds when the going got rough. "Here swallow these....they'll help you chill" hahaha he was the best.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. So have Marines and Army grunts

some AF people...somethign about CO status and ilegal orders...

As I said, most are handled quietly... but some go quite public on it...

[MADem]

154. You are referring to Mike Boorda's SEAMAN TO ADMIRAL program

But you have not told the whole tale: you have to be IN THE NAVY, through boot camp, in your USN assignment, and not over age 21 to apply for that program. They take

VERY FEW every year. It is a "hen's teeth" process, frankly. You have better luck being hit by a bus than qualifying for the program, it is very competitive, it is a board process, and that means that Flag Officer favorites have the best shot at it.

[Liberal Dose]

185. You also have to be recommended by your CO, but that wasn't the point. The

point was that 4 years of college are not required up front to become an officer, and that OCS is not the only way to get there.

[MADem]

214. Of course not

You can apply from within for an ROTC scholarship. You can also do what is termed a direct accession. Join the service, either with a degree, or get one while on active duty, and providing you have not reached your 35th birthday by the time you would have completed OCS, you can take the Officer Aptitude Test and apply that way as well.

You can also go LDO or Warrant, but that demands that you do more time in the enlisted barrel.

If not too old, and assuming you have very good high school grades with an emphasis on math and science, you can apply, outside of the STA paremeters, for admission to a Service Academy--it helps to know a congressman to go this route.

There are many paths to a commission, but the least likely one, to be blunt, is Seaman to Admiral. The numbers are just not there.

[Liberal Dose]

218. I don't think I set anyone on the wrong career path by not giving the very

best example. It was just an example. :eyes:

[MADem]

225. I'm not being argumentative, I am simply telling you what I know

to be true based on my considerable experience. No need to roll your eyes, all I am trying to do is clarify the issue for the edification of all. There are far too many misconceptions out there, and people tend to blame recruiters, servicemembers, military leadership, everyone but the Monkey who gives the orders with the Commander in Chief title, where the buck should stop.

Quite frankly, I urge all my loved ones to avoid military service in the present environment. They tend to listen to me, because I have decades of it under my belt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

231. We do the same`

[MADem]

251. It's simply not a good choice, nowadays

And it is a shame that it has to be that way. There is honor in caring enough about your country to want to defend it, and unfortunately, the RW has morphed the honor of defense into a pack of lies and an illegal war, and cannon fodder kids are paying with their lives and limbs.

[Liberal Dose]

238. Thank you for the information. I am forewarned to never again mention

anything I may have heard during my piddly 4 years of service, standing aside and letting those who have decades of experience under their belt educate the masses on the important issues. :eyes:
I will continue to blame recruiters who lie. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads. In 1979 when I joined, there were hostages being held in Iran but there was no combat going on to scare young people away from enlisting. I was not solicited to join, so there was no reason for my recruiters to lie and THEY LIED ANYWAY. Captain Bunnypants is certainly to blame for the mess we're in today, but I'm pretty sure he was still facedown in a pile of coke on the day I took my oath. Just for good measure, :eyes:

[MADem]

247. .....

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

I give up. You are applying 'attitude' to me that I do not possess. That's your issue, not mine.

I worked the STA program at its' infancy with Boorda, in fact, I argued with him over it, because I did not like the elitism inherent in the selection process. He, being senior to me, won the day.

But, hey, whatever.

[Liberal Dose]

250. The attitude is all mine. Simply bowing to your obvious superiority.

[MADem]

253. I claim none. Information is not superiority. nt

[Liberal Dose]

138. It's common knowledge that recruiters lie, but most don't find that out

until they've already taken the oath. I did basic training in Orlando, and a common line of cadence was, "Sailor sailor don't be blue, my recruiter fooled me too." (Fooled or fucked, depending on CCs)

[ozarkvet]

277. Recruiters Omit, they don't really lie.

Recruiters are taught to omit and not volunteer information, unless asked. They get into trouble for outright lies.

It's sins of omission.

All that said, I hate these stories, especially now.

Anyone who joins up knows what it is about --- killing or being killed.

If you don't want to play, don't sign.

[Coventina]

21. They're surprised? I thought lying recruiters was common knowledge!

:shrug:

[tx_dem41]

23. Someone didn't read the papers they signed. n/t

[warrens]

28. Chicago NPR followed a recruiter around recently

During the interview, he said that he never lies to anyone. Then, during the chats with college students, he told them they had a better chance of dying on the highway into Chicago than in Iraq, that trucks and humvees in Iraq were REAL SAFE, that things in Iraq were not nearly as bad as everyone says, blah blah blah. All lies.

[linazelle]

29. Who, in this day and age, thinks they sign up for a war w/out deployment?

That's just plain dumb on the family's part. Oh well...

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Ah yes unless that is IN THE CONTRACT

once yuo sign up, you are uncle sam's to do what he wants.

Stupid kid, hope he lives to learn from his mistake

[xhades]

39. Shame

Shame on him and his parents. He was entering into a contract. You need to read the paperwork you sign. Before I joined the Air Force I went over the whole thing. This is a major move in someone's life. These people were extremly niave. Free College while he sits around for four years watching his fellow marines getting deployed.

[Mr_Spock]

41. Hey, another first time poster on this post alone - welcome to DU!

:hi:

Of course there is no shame on the part of the recruiter for deceiving him right?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xhades]

44. The recruiter probably did lie

I'm not going to deny this, But I just wish people wouldnt see the reserves or national guard now a days as a free college ride. You have got to read the paperwork you sign.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[xhades]

57. I agree that N.G. is being misused

There is the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard I'm not sure the Marines have some type of guard system. I think this was marine reserves. As with the misuse I agree that they are getting shafted, but anyone who is up on current events can see whats going on and when they decide to enlist they are putting themselves at risk for deployment.

Recuiters will fill you with any line of bullcrap to get you to sign the dotted line. I agree that is pretty despicable. It goes against all the values the military is supposed to uphold. As a potential enlistee you must also take responisiblity for yourself and not be so naive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. He failed OCS?

Oh my, so he did not do well in Naval OCS?

I hope he enjoys his time as an EM

Oh and welcome to DU

[converted_democrat]

53. Have you heard or seen any of the past newspaper articles about this?

One kid got the recruiter on tape telling him where to get a fake diploma and how to pass a drug test. Another story was about how recruiters effectively "kidnapped" a kid and separated him from his mother to get him to sign. (In Washington State)
Or how about all the "Stand Down Day" where the military acknowledged that they were using unethical practices, and had a day for all recruiters to go over the right way to do it?
If you think for a second this isn't a big problem, you're sorely mistaken.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[Zen]

56. Are you condoning military kidnapping of children for service?

I don't think that was a particularly insightful post there my friend :D

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[nadinbrzezinski]

59. the story was floating round here about six months ago

it led to a national standdown for it was impressing a kid into the military, so many rules were violated it is not even funny.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[Zen]

64. You are defending them to the last - why don't you tell us??

You seem to know more than some of us do about the military - are you going to just defend them and not do any homework to see where they may have screwed up? These stories don't just keep popping up for no reason you know!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[nadinbrzezinski]

83. I am a military wife, (My hubby retired two years ago)

And I served VOLUTARILY under somebody else's flag, and I will say something you will not like... the back of the military is broken, we either get out of Iraq, or we start a universal draft... no way around it... and it has nothing to do with the force, but the misuse of the force by this particular leadership... and I will include the flag and general officers who SHOULLD have resigned their commisiions EN MASSE

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Zen]

95. "the civilian population of the United States has truly been put at risk"

You believe the population of this country is truly at risk? By a handful of thugs? :rofl:

Only the people who have drunk the PNAC Bush Kool-aid believe that bullcrap. C'mon, you're not a progressive or liberal or a Democrat are you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Maybe we should direct him to teh PNAC site

and teh PNAC plan

[Zen]

99. Good idea - I detect a bit of "good soldiers don't question things"

mentality in this person who signed up here just to post in this thread. He needs an education as to the source of the kool-aid he is drinking...

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Well good soldiers DON'T question orders

but he is no longer in the navy, so here are the sites

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

http://www.newamericancentury.org/publicationsreports.htm

He should download Rebulding Amerca's Defenses... that might open his eyes as to who truly is putting the american people at risk, and it ain't Sadamn or his boys.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. Yes, yes it is broken

and you are dismissing the great work draftees did in the civil war, WW I, WW II, Korea and Vietnam. Thanks for remembering their sacrifice.

Of course I will ask the other pesky question... have you ever been in combat? I have, and once the shooting starts, it truly does not matter if you have draftees or a professional military...everybody knows at that moment what to do and they do it.

By the way, I guess the IDF should also stop their universal draft because many of the troops don't want to be there.

If you have been in combat you will get this. When in combat you are there for your buddies, not apple pie, the american way or any of that shit... and all you care at that point is to go home... oh and nobody who has tasted combat wants to be there.

So have you ever been in combat? Otherwise the I would not want to be there with those who don't want to be there, is a nice talking point, you need to get out more and ask some combat vets ok.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Well been shot at

as i said most combat vets don't want to go back, they don't want to be there either... and yuo do undersatnd you are there for your buddies, not apple pie or any of that shit.

It changes you

Thank you for your service.

Oh and mine, silly me, medic war on drugs, stupid people get shot and somebody has to crawl in there to get then out.... guess who got that job, or rather forgot, NEVER AGAIN VOLUNTEER YOURSELF... (no was army but it works).. of course hubby was a bubble head and we both concluded we were just as mad, he went down a ship that purposely sinks and I went where people usually don't thread for ahem, free.

Did I mention that target acquisition device painted on that damn rig works every damn time?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

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[nadinbrzezinski]

118. For somebody else's army

was technically a member of the army reserve, in somebody else's force before we got married. Of course I also had to tell a full bird where to stuff it when he gave a very ilegal order... only the lives of 320 of my people at stake...

Most people don't realize that during WW II the Mexian Congress basically made the Red Cross EMTs, (medics) part of the force, and we were part of that reserve until the civil war started... so for seven years I was part of the army... heck I traned my kids and they even knew how to close order drill

[LAV-25]

120. Which Army?

I love to hear about people's experience with foreign (to me) militaries. I work with a Romanian that served before the fall of the Soviet Union. Man does he have some stories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Mexican Army

it was fun, really

[LAV-25]

126. Fighting

What conflicts was the Mexican Army involved in? Internal or external?

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Internal

the war on drugs is quite hot, M-60s, LAVs and even air support are common

Of course there is this nasty little civil war in the south of the country that started in 1995 and that barely makes the American press

[LAV-25]

130. Yep It's Serious

That has to be hard. A lot of stuff in South America is ignored by the US media. But it does take a lot of courage to cover....drug cartels are dangerous and very close to home. Many Marines I served with spent a lot of time in Panama. It is amazing how similar Panama is to Iraq. Corrupt leader initailly propped up by the US. Gets to big for his britches and needs to be taken down.

[raccoon]

205. How's that again?

"the civilian population of the United States has truly been put at risk."

I agree, they are....at risk because of the Neocons. They hate us for our freedoms.

Somehow, I don't think that's what you meant.

[wtmusic]

245. You must be very frightened

I would really like to hear your version of why the US is 'at risk' right now. Let me guess--"the terrorists".

It's really sad to see someone who is willing to make a sacrifice for their country fall for that con job.

[uncle ray]

86. ahh, those pesky "bad apples" at it again.

the real question is why do we even have to have the "conversation" about a few isolated cases, as you put it, why aren't tens of thousand of real patriots like yourself flooding the recruitment offices? by my estimations, they should be beating potential recruits away with sticks due to the popular support for this war.

[Zen]

87. "To me all this smear does way more harm than good"

This is what we do here - we examine our government and it's agencies. We promote a particular political agenda too. But #1 is to explore issues and to make sure that our government is responsible to THE PEOPLE IT SERVES - this INCLUDES the military.

Covering things up only makes things worse in the long run - don't you agree that any issues should be ironed out in plain view so that people TRUST the military. You do want people to VOLUNTEER don't you?

[xhades]

68. Well first of all

I'm not going to defend a crooked Recruiter. Second alot of Horror stories about young men and women put in horrible situations would not happen if you just read what you sign. A Recruiter is no better then a used car salesmen. Is there a problem? Yes. It's good to get these stories attention so other people won't make the same mistake. BUT PLEASE READ WHAT YOU SIGN!

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Do they ever go public with this?

I suspect the national one day stand down should be a great hint that they were NOT the only ones involved

And yuo expect them to go and tell us that the recruiters were given an article 15 over this? Com'on if they even went to an article 32 I don't expect them to go public, bad PR

[converted_democrat]

70. The "kid" was 17............

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/paynter/227497_paynter08.html


on edit- He had just turned 17 when the calls started to join up.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[Zen]

80. My dad enlisted when he was 16.

He simply lied and they asked no questions. It may be stricter today, but I'm sure they are grabbing the kids as soon as humanly possible - even if they are not quite 18 yet. Do you doubt this?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

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[MADem]

171. The parents MUST sign a consent form

You can DEP at 17, ship at 18. Those parents had to sign to get that kid even to the MEPS for his physical, never mind to take the ASVAB.

[goddess40]

149. The parents still have the kids best interest at heart - recruiters don't

At 18 we don't let 'kids' have the choice to drink Alcohol - which is because the brain is still developing and it's the correct thing to do. Since we now know the brain is still developing until the age of 21 we should restrict 'kids' from signing documents that call for life and death situations too.

[LAV-25]

165. You act

You act as if you don't know any crappy parents. Your statement is too general.

[goddess40]

292. sure I know loads of shitty parents

but all recruiters in time like these will do anything to get some kid to sign on the bottom line. To send anyone to Iraq right now is to not care about their best interests.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Welcome to DU

real story , a kid we know, we sent packages to... he was told by the recuriter that he was not going to go to Iraq... ok so far this has held off, he is in Afghanistan.

I need to put together a care packet for him soon

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[nadinbrzezinski]

60. We are sending him other essencials

such as ahem toilet paper and toiletries, he is also a gamer, so gaming material to feed the habit

[Name removed]

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[liveoaktx]

217. Even if it is listed in the contract, the entire thing can be changed at

any time. IMO the idea of writing in special items means nothing. The contract is worthless to the signer

[Hobarticus]

38. I'm sorry, but people have GOT to be better informed...

If you're going to make a major life decision based on what some jackhole with a private agenda behind a desk is going to tell you, then you've got a lifetime of perpetual victimhood to look forward to.

[cassiepriam]

42. Recruiters will say anything to get you to sign on the dotted line.

And there is not a thing that can be done about it.
Like everything else in this country.

[JVS]

47. Read before you sign!

I know that most people usually scan over some documents and sign them or click the I agree button without looking at what they are agreeing to, but when you're about to sign up for the military, it is a big enough deal to look through everything carefully and perhaps run it by a lawyer to make sure that you understand what is going on.

[xhades]

66. Exactly

Back when I signed up the recuiter told me things that were not put in the contract. I was supposed to have a guaranteed job and come in with rank. Well low and behold after reading it in MEPS it had neither. If not I'd probably in a job I hate and a couple ranks lower.

[Zen]

71. So you were able to get the contract fixed after you discovered they LIED

to you?

Interesting - glad you read your contract. I can see how you are not defending the recruiters as not lying - since you were lied to! :D

[xhades]

75. May or may not been

Could have just been incompetence. Haven't talked to him since MEPS was my last stop before basic. If it wasn't fixed I was going to pull the plug cause I hadn't sworn in yet. I wanted a job that I already knew and one that I can make an immediate impact with and that is what I got.

[Zen]

92. You're definitely smart for making them change it beforehand

I tend to believe that it wasn't an accident though - this is happening far too often in published accounts - and how many of these kids feel to threatened to even speak up when this kind of shit happens - yeah, you know it's gotta be in the thousands...

[Name removed]

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[MADem]

169. You did the right thing

There are two stages to the process--the recruiter, who gets you in the door, and the person who does the job assignment at the MEPS. They sometimes work together to get a candidate a job, but you must remember that the jobs are posted based on availability of slots in post-boot camp training (you get set back in boot camp, you LOSE the job, in essence). And at every MEPS all over the country, there are other people who are vying for those very jobs.

The recruiter and the job fellow (called a classifier in USN terms) work together to make GOAL--the monthly number of sign ups that they have to meet. They prefer to ship people sooner rather than later, because people who think too much often change their minds, thus, the shorter the DELAYED ENTRY PROGRAM (DEP) period, the better. They will try to sell people on the jobs with the shortest waiting period before shipping.

If they are serious about making goal, they will call their HQ and get a spare slot in a hard to find job, through old fashioned begging and pleading, if that is THE ONLY WAY the kid will move, and he or she is a very highly qualified candidate.

Unfortunately, most kids, once they have gone through the process, feel somehow invested and do not want to walk away...plus, the recruiter is their ride home.

[No Exit]

48. Isn't this similar to what happened to Casey Sheehan?

A friend who used to be with Army JAG told me there's a whole body of (military) law that deals with case after case of misrepresentations by recruiters.

[Mr_Spock]

50. The reason they don't get into more trouble is because technically they

are correct - if you read the paperwork you signed, you are f'ed. Now if you were to secretly record your conversation with the recruiter, I think that a lot of bad publicity would come from that. It is clear to me from all of the cases I've read about that there is some sleazy salesmanship going on there. Taking advantage of an eager and directionless kid is unethical and should not be practiced IMHO.

[Name removed]

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[Zen]

69. You are not going to get shot & killed in college

At least the odds are much lower anyway.

My dad was in the Air Force - do you have a problem with that?? :wtf:

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

105. So you have been in combat

then you should know vets hate combat and don't want to go back

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

128. You were there for yer buddies

and you were young and stupid too, which is why militaries want kids, not adults,

Piece of trivia the brain does not finish maturing until you are in your mid 20s and studies have found that you have a hard time making those judgements about real risk at 18

[LAV-25]

133. Absolutely

There is no denying that fact!! I can't believe the stuff I used to do. It's as simple as looking at driving habits. But I do not regret any of it. I had all the right ingredients...broken heart, strapping young lad, and a lust for adventure:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. And full of piss and vinegar

[LAV-25]

141. Been a Pleasure

It has been a real pleasure communicating with you today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. I will ask you a favor though

don't spread teh talking points about the volunteer military, I know we need it, but people once in go there for their budies, you know that. And you have to get over the questioning orders and in this case how recruiters work

We knew one in the navy, our neighboor and he admitd they were fluffing numbers back in 2003 already... and he said, they were not meeting quotas back then. It has only gotten worst and things like this are becomng more common.

Yuo also know that for PR they will not go public with the problems if they can avoid it, fact is it broke out into the press (the impressment) and they killed that story FAST.

[LAV-25]

150. No

I went in for my nation...I fought along side my buddies and in care of and in the care of my buddies. They weren't my buddies until after I signed the paper, went through boot camp , MCT, and school. As far as meeting quotas...quotas are just a number. If the military thought they were losing a PR battle by not meeting the quotas they would lower the bar. They stand up and admit they are missing them in the face of all that use it as a tool in their agenda against the war. Sort of sad actually; they are called corrupt and dishonest and in the next sentence criticized for not meeting the goals they set for themselves.

[Mr_Spock]

155. Sucks trying to support an illegal war doesn't it

That's where the hypocrisy hits the fan, don't it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. Ok so you went

free hint, the UCMJ does not apply to you any longer

The Constitution REQUIRES of you to be critical of your government when they are making mistakes, seems you don't want that disinfectant because you still obey orders and trust your leadership.

You are not in the Marines no more, so get over it

[Gormy Cuss]

73. Welcome to DU

As I recall, the consequences of those crap classes and wasted time was not a trip to a war zone.

Recruiters have no business lying or making promises they can't keep. The last thing we need is to foster the notion that military recruitment is about tricking you into serving. That will only make the military a less attractive option. No one in my family joined the military without a talk from one of the combat vets or lifers to counterpoint the overly enthusiastic and optimistic sales pitch of the recruiters.

[Name removed]

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[xhades]

84. True most of the Air Force can be

really called the Chair Force, But I'm in a job that has normal rotations to Iraq and Afgan. I didnt know this when I signed up cause I came in before the crap hit the fan.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Zen]

76. You signed up here specifically to post in this thread.

You are the one taking on the people who question the recruiters. Why is this so important to you?

Why indeed don't you re-up and get over to Iraq - Cheney says we have "decades" of conflict left there - they need all the help they can get seeing as the recruiters are lying regularly to people to get them to sign on the dotted line...

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

98. So you served in a PEACE TIME military

that is a whole different ball game... than a war time military.

[Zen]

103. "two of which were under a Democratic President" - is this bad?

You are implying that it might have been a hardship to be deployed under a Democratic President. I think your true colors are showing now...

[Name removed]

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[Zen]

108. I think you were saying that serving for a Democrat was not a problem

because you are anything but a Democrat. You served loyally under a Democrat, but it sounds like you believe the crap so many military believe about the Dems - weak on defense, don't you?

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

114. no but there are two mythis that you have encountered

and probably not noticed

1.- Democrats are weak on defense, ergo democrats cannot be trusted with defense

2.- Only republicans serve

By the way I can tell you how bad things are for the troops.. they are really bad, because the privatized suply chain does not give them much

[LAV-25]

117. Never Had Much

Marines never had much anyway:) Damn Navy, I swear they spent all they could and gave us the rest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Lets just say a resuply at sea, first one

for a submarine since WW II, all they had and the chop said now was Lima Beans

[No Exit]

113. Looks like the one who's weak on defense is the chickenhawk

poster, LAV-25, who (though he is obviously a rough-n-ready soldier) is for some reason not serving in Iraq now, when his prethident needs him most.

He doesn't seem to have any answer for your on-target observation that he is anything but a Democrat.

[Zen]

116. I'm wondering why seeming Republicans got onto this post so quickly?

I find that more than just a bit interesting... :D

[No Exit]

282. Well, I don't think it's b/c they've had more experience with recruiters..

..since there are so many Bush supporters who do not serve in Iraq, and whose kids will never serve in Iraq, but who think they are "supporting the troops" by displaying those meaningless magnets on their SUVs.

I've heard that one before: "Those people enlisted voluntarily"--implying that it is the young soldiers' own fault that they are being jerked around and killed in Iraq. Bullshit! I once dropped a 14-yr-old boy onto a sidewalk to run in and pick up a Chinese food takeout order, and a recruiter darted out of a nearby recruiting station and grabbed him.

People in the 18-21 year age range are gullible. For recruiters to lie to them when this megalomaniac administration is in power is almost like murder.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. And the kids today

don't care, UCMJ, but we do... we are no longer in

We are free to question, and it is your duty to question, and damn it you earned that right

[Mandate My Ass]

278. LAV-25: I never had a problem with my 3 employments....

Nobody, and I mean, NOBODY in the military would ever call a tour an employment. I know many military people and they'd never make a slip of the tongue on a word that is so utilized as deployment

I smell something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

281. Good catch, TOD is nto the same as employment

also a tour is four years, to six years.

I missed that one by a stretch

[newportdadde]

79. My brother-in-law was a recruiter.

He is a career officer serving his second tour in Iraq currently. He was assigned to do recruiting in Texas and absolutely hated it, this was before the start of the Iraq ware 2002 ish. He did it for about 1 year. He had been overseas once to Korea for a year prior to that. The quote I heard was that he would RATHER be in Iraq then trying to recruit.

In Texas he was on the road at all hours driving from place to place given the size of Texas, never home etc. At least during his overseas deployment in Korea he had leave for a strech at a time to come home and focus on home.

They do not get commission but his boss would absolutely ream him if they did not hit quota. For example you have a certain time frame to make your next promotion to stay in as an officer, they could always threaten you with that etc.

He absolutely hated the experience.

[MADem]

179. Thank you for that post

I ran a recruiting command, and I hated it, the recruiters hated it, the classifiers hated it, we ALL HATED it. None of us were volunteers, save the few career recruiters who remembered the good old days when life was good, but were in the rating and stuck until retirement.

Three years of working seven day weeks and taking shit. And that was in peacetime, mind you, in support of Ronnie Raygun's massive all volunteer military to crush the evil commies.

The recruiters are not evil, they are, for the most part, trapped victims of the Monkey's sick, illegal war. Most would prefer to go back to the operational military, because at least the stress there is, to quote Rummy, "knowable."

[ginnyinWI]

89. My nephew is in this same situation

The family is RW, so they were not open to anything I have to say! They are still drinking the Kool-Aid.

He joined the Air National Guard right out of high school, drawn in by the promise of getting his college paid for. (Are there no student loans, I ask? My three kids all got them!) He has just completed boot camp, and will spend another six months in some sort of training, and the promise is that he can start college next fall!
Yeah, right, I say. We'll just see if he lasts that long before being shipped out. What were they thinking??!! This is a VERY stupid time to enlist in any branch of the military!

[xhades]

90. He's screwed n/t

n/t

[AllyCat]

104. Vanity Fair Sept. 2005 has a great article on the lies recruiters tell

These people have NO scruples. They tell kids how to get out of drug tests or pass them, how to hide medical conditions, how to avoid graduating from high school, etc. A family aquaintance with a misfit son left high school 2 months before graduation to go into the Army. He was basically kicked out after a summer for...stealing? I think? But they took him back last week.

They are so desperate and under so much pressure from their superior officers to make quota (which they aren't making), they will say anything to anyone to get them to sign on the dotted line.

[ecstatic]

110. make a pass at a superior officer?

hell I don't know. But this is a messed up situation. I wonder if the contract is binding since he signed as a minor (17)?

[MADem]

182. You take the oath, and sign, twice

Once at DEP (can be 17 with parental consent) and once again at 18 or older, when you ship out. The contract, unfortunately, is valid and enforceable.

[Arbiter]

121. This is sad.

People need to become better informed about stuff like this before they sign away. Recruiters are nothing more than dirty used car salesmen, if you ask me. And the US military needs to be ashamed of themselves for lying to young adults like this.

[Zen]

132. Welcome to DU!

Welcome to DU Arbiter :hi:

I agree, only bad things come from lying - it's bad enough the republicans can't seem to stop lying to save their lives, let's not have our military recruiters destroying the reputation of the military.

[HughMoran]

125. Wow! That's just awful! n/t

[SoCalDem]

129. Message to 17-21 yr old kids.. NEVER SIGN ANYTHING

that a recruiter gives you, UNLESS you are ready to pack your bags and go where they want to send you..

There is NO reason to sign any "pre-enlistment" or "pre" anything papers.. If you are physically able to fight, they WILL trick you into signing stuff, and once signed it's LEGAL for them to come after you..

They will say whatever they need to say to convince kids to sign up. That's their JOB...The "fine print" is written not only in small print,m but in ambiguous language..It's done that way on PURPOSE. They need to be able to twist the language to work to their advantage, NOT YOURS..

There are lots of 18 yr olds who are still living with their parents, or under their parent's insurnace, so technically they are still dependents, but LEGALLY , they are ADULTS, and once they sign something, their parents CANNOT get it un-done..

[Solon]

203. I remember the recuiter at my college...

Who was saying all sorts of lies to me during that time. To give a simple example, I was not what you would call, in perfect physical condition, I'm a fat bastard, though only a little overweight. He told me that I could avoid basic entirely, in the Army no less, because of some test I can take. I KNEW that was a big fat lie, and he said I would be great in Army Intelligence, which I told him was an oxymoron. After I insulted him for the tenth time, and threatened him with harrassment/stalking charges(following me from class to class on campus), he finally quit trying to recruit me.

[MADem]

260. Are you a doctor???

If you ARE a doctor, or a lawyer with an AMAZING skillset, like say, you are the BEST MARITIME LAW LAWYER IN THE WOOOOORRRRRLD, you actually CAN avoid OCS, and go instead to OIS, the short program that teaches you how to salute and wear the uni, and sorta kinda march. I've never met an INTEL guy who managed to avoid the regular route though--but hey, exceptions can be made, depending on qualifications. The SECDEF or the Service Secretaries can, and sometimes on rare occasion do, wave the magic wand if they want a particular person for a particular job.

I knew a thoracic surgeon who actually WAS the 'fattest bastard' I ever met. He was ENORMOUS! He had a massive service obligation because he took the scholarships and the advanced training, but he wanted to get out, and would not lose weight or even try during his PT tests. They'd mark him down on his military appearance and bearing, but would put a caveat in his report that he should be retained nonetheless.

They kept him in anyway, because he was damn fine at his job. They'll do the same with Catholic priests, who are scarce as hen's teeth!

[Name removed]

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[MADem]

267. You never know, seriously

I have put people in service (three I can recall off the top of my head, one had advanced degrees and a fluency in a critical language) at the behest of SECNAV that WERE NOT QUALIFIED, physically, AT ALL. But they had a particular skill that was desperately needed.

The challenge there is making the old MEPS docs understand that the waiver from DC OVERRIDES the MEPS medical directives--some of those old coots would be quite obstreperous, and refuse to sign the paperwork until the MEPS commander intervened.

It doesn't happen often, but occasionally, it does.

[nadinbrzezinski]

269. Hmm that explains it

They wanted me in and were willing to override all, except one, hubby was a chief and deployed...

Trust me there were a series of reasons before we reached that whickets that should have stopped it...

[Solon]

297. LOL...I was 18 at the time...

and no Dougie Houser either. I'm sorry I didn't specify, I already knew that they have a different, less intensive program for trained paramedics and doctors, that definately doesn't apply to me. I'm not saying I can't fix a broken leg, or even deal with an open chest wound, but I'm not trained as a doctor of anything. My specialty was and is computers, but even then, I don't see how they would have known about anything other than my major at the time (Computer Science). High School had a learning in BASIC class, and that's it.

[MADem]

298. If this was eons ago, before the age of the PC, you might have been a

fine catch! They didn't get serious about weight standards until, oh, say the early eighties. And they didn't get draconian about it until the late eighties, early nineties.

So, if it was back in the dark ages, you just might have had a skillset they needed!!!

[Solon]

299. Less than a decade ago...

At the time when 1 out of 2 people had the same damn degree, 1996.

[MADem]

300. The recruiter was looking for a warm one, then

He probably told his boss you were a hot contact and very motivated, but he just needed to work you a bit more to close the deal. They do that a lot to keep their bosses off their backs! They string the supervisors along, but it all falls to hell when the supervisor demands the contact list and starts making calls him or her self!

[Fescue4u]

283. Always READ the FINE PRINT

That *IS* some serious Bullshit.

These folks trusted the words of car salesmen in uniform.

While its fine to have the conversation, its imperitive that one read the fine details of ANY contract....especially one that requires you give up 4 years MINIMUM of your life, or possibly the rest of your life.

The family made a tragic mistake. The Recruiter committed a moral crime (but not legal crime)

[sepia_steel]

289. I've known a few recruiters.

They were ALL low-down lying bastards.

[Mr_Spock]

290. I take it you don't have a good impression of recruiters!

:D

[bluestateguy]

291. I think he should start looking at apartments in Canada

But that's just me.

[Cha]

295. The ultimate scam..you sign up

for Russian Roulette.

[greblc]

296. I'm sorry but everyone in the military should know...

they are employed by a branch of the government that is by design made for war. It's quite simple you enlist you may see war, you may see combat, you may die.

Explain to me why this Marine and his family are surprised?

"The recruiter said..." doesn't cut it. Every Marine is an Infantryman 1st. A Truck Driver, Computer operator, Aviator, Engineer or College Student second.

This is taught to every Marine.

The only suprise should be that our Democratic Congressmen were duped in to giving the President the power to create this mess of a war.

[Ikonoklast]

301. Too bad he couldn't have talked to my Dad

and heard the same thing he told me when I was going to enlist. He said, "Son, do what you think is right. But I'll disown you before I bury one of my own."

Dad was in the service during a little fracas in Korea, I knew that, but he NEVER talked about it. EVER. Until then.

He was at Chosen Reservoir, wearing the same clothes for a month and crapping in his pants because it was too damn cold to pull them down without getting frozen. Grown men pissing themselves in fear when the Chinese blew the bugles at the start of an assault in the middle of the night. Running out of ammunition. Hand to hand combat. Wiping the brains from the guy that just took a round to the head next to him off his face. Starving, sick, and wounded men fighting like animals not to win, but just to stay alive. And for what.

Made my mind up. He never mentioned it again. Never had to.