Harassing Breast-Feeding Mothers Could Lead To Fines

[The Straight Story]

Harassing Breast-Feeding Mothers Could Lead To Fines

MADISON, Wis. -- Asking a breast-feeding mother to cover-up could soon cost people in Wisconsin $200.

A proposed bill by state Sen. Fred Risser would protect mothers who breast-feed in public from being harassed.

Under Wisconsin law it is perfectly legal for a woman to breast-feed her child in a public place.

But while the state law may be behind the mother, the public isn't always behind the law, Madison television station WISC reported.

http://www.local6.com/family/5078710/detail.html

[longship]

1. Good!!! Very good.

nt

[bloom]

2. That sounds like a good idea.... eom

[AX10]

3. Good. Breasts were intened for feeding a baby FIRST...

and foremost.

It's part of nature and it's about time that mothers are allowed to care for their children, properly!

[FreedomAngel82]

215. I agree

Doy.

[rucky]

231. try telling that to a 15-year-old boy.

I kid.

My wife is a huge lactivist.

[SeattleGirl]

4. That sounds great!

I have seen many women breastfeed in public, and have never had a problem with it, and don't understand people who do have a problem with it. It's not like these women are performing some lewd act, for heaven sakes. Well, good for Wisconsin!

[Mandate My Ass]

5. you have GOT to be kidding me

Publicly harassing a woman who is feeding her baby?!

These Puritanical assholes have just gone batshit crazy. Probably the same kind of loons who want to force women get licenses to get impregnated. I can almost (but not quite) understand harassing women getting abortions...but Jesus Christ on a pogo stick. What do they think breasts are for? They need a law for this? THis is nuts.

OMFG look at their poll!

How do you feel about breast-feeding in public?

It's fine as long as it's discreet.
I don't like it, but understand why it's OK.
It should never be done.

How about a 4th option: I should just mind my own fucking business and not worry about what other people are doing or try and control them because my personal comfort level means absolutely nothing in the big scheme of things.

[LostinVA]

6. Plenty of people who DU who don't like this

Every now and then a public breast feeding thread comes up, and people freak out. (And, I have never breast feed a child... probably because I have no children!)

[Mandate My Ass]

7. I know. I've seen some of them and I still shake my head

I had a child when I was very young. He's 26 now but back then I was the only mother I knew who was nursing and I never saw anybody doing it in public. It was very isolating, which is so sad because it was a wonderful experience. The only problem was I couldn't really go anywhere until he was weaned. I wonder if I had been a bit older and more confident if I would have just whipped it out in public. I was thrilled when it became more common and perfectly acceptable.

We are definitely going back to the dark ages.

[kath]

218. This country is so backward in SO many ways. It's ridiculous that such

a law is felt to be necessary.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. There are always ways to do it discreetely

or dare I say tastefully. My wife breastfed both of our kids that way, even in public. No one ever said a thing.

[Texasgal]

75. What is

discreet?

[Solo_in_MD]

148. Covered up mostly

Though our second one was a noisy feeder and anyone nearby could discern what was going on.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mandate My Ass]

23. Oh yeah! That's the perfect response.

:applause:

[LostinVA]

232. Dang! I missed a deleted post replying to my post!

I hate when that happens.

[Bassic]

245. Yeah it's frustrating isnt it?

[LostinVA]

263. Yes! Esp. since I didn't write anything really snarky

[ohio_liberal]

274. It was mine

:shrug:

Nothing bad but profanity was there

[donco6]

74. I've seen so many stories about people who WERE

harrassed. Can you believe it? I've never seen anyone who wasn't being discrete about it. And even if they weren't, who cares? It seems crazy that we'd have to have a law about it.

[Arugula Latte]

8. Breast feeding is becoming the norm like bottle feeding was 30 yrs. ago

Kids are used to being around breast-feeding mothers (I know mine are!) and hopefully when they're adults this won't be much of an issue any more.

In the meantime, how f@#$ed up are people who object to feeding a baby the natural way? Mine both nursed until they were about two.

BTW, I love Russ Feingold ...

[HulaChicken]

125. Hi fellow Oregonian! n/t

[Arugula Latte]

145. Hi HulaChicken!

Welcome to DU! :hi: :toast:

[HereSince1628]

9. A breast in a clothing malfunction is obscene a breast with a baby

suckling it is natural. That's our story and we're sticking to it.
Oh, you gotta love us in Wisconsin. We are not complicated, not a bit.

[Texasgal]

10. It's about F'ing time!

GOOD!

I hope all those fucking weirdos out there who cannot seem to FATHOM Womens breasts being used for any OTHER purpose get socked right in the wallet!

All I can say is BRAVO!!!!

[fleabert]

12. excellent. leave the moms alone unless you plan on harassing bottle-

feeding moms too!

wherever people don't mind seeing a bottle in a babies mouth, they shouldn't mind seeing a mom breastfeed...



http://www.culturekitchen.com/archives/002827.html

[MountainLaurel]

14. Nestle would never let that happen

Nor would the other formula makers: Could you imagine the counter-ads?

[fleabert]

230. they are the spawn of the devil...I am sure of it...nt

[afdip]

13. isn't wisconsin known as the dairy state???

i guess next the fundies will demand dairies cover the udders on their cows . . . what a bunch of sick prigs.

[LittleClarkie]

112. We also kill puddy tats

Well, I don't think that actually made it into law. But we're noted for even thinking about it.

[fortyfeetunder]

141. Afraid of the competition...

Mommy(two-legged dairy) vs. Elsie (4-legged dairy)

[Marr]

15. What kind of weirdo would harrass a breast-feeding mother?

Talk about repressed. That's just fucking weird.

[MountainLaurel]

18. You'd be surprised

At the huge number of people who consider breastfeeding to be dirty, perverted (I know someone whose SIL told her that if she breastfeed her daughter, the girl would grow up to be a lesbian :crazy:), or unnatural. Some of it's repression, but I think many, many people don't like to be reminded that when it comes down to it, humans are animals.

[ohio_liberal]

22. My mother-in-law told me I was starving my baby by BF-ing

People are so stupid.

[Mandate My Ass]

24. My MIL said the same thing!!

She always said to me "My kids slept four hours between bottles. You're starving him because he wants to nurse every two hours." Puh-leeze.

The other dumbassed thing she used to say is that his bowel movements were too watery and I must have given him dysentery. Not only is that medically impossible, it's just plain mean and ignorant.

[ohio_liberal]

26. My first baby, I almost quit

The MIL never let up on me. She constantly harassed me about it. First I was starving him, then when he gained weight he wasn't healthy because it was "water weight". My mother, who never never breastfed or even had strong feelings about it, called her on the phone and told her to STFU.

The dysentery thing is a new one to me. Gawd almighty.

[Mandate My Ass]

34. My SIL was almost as bad

She boasted that she fed her kids cereal in their formula when they were a week or two old, like that was a good thing to do. No wonder they slept between feedings, that's like eating a Thanksgiving dinner at every meal for a newborn.

She did admit that often her kids shrieked when they had to make a bowel movement. Jeez, not to be gross or anything but what do people think baby poo should look like?

My mom was a pain too but at least I could shut her up by saying "You know you sound more and more like my MIL." That always did the trick.

Good for you for sticking to it!

[hedgehog]

37. Believe it or not, but a breast fed baby's poo isn't that bad

Think cow manure as opposed to dog doo. I still wouldn't want to step in it, but I think of it as Nature's way of making little babies a little less unattractive!

[ohio_liberal]

62. Like yellow cottage cheese

:D

It freaked my hubby out the first time he saw it.

[kestrel91316]

183. lol. Men.

[spuddonna]

223. Yeah, beware of the 'mustard'! lol n/t

[HulaChicken]

225. That stuff is explosive! n/t

[spuddonna]

228. LOL! Yeah we called our son "Master Blaster"! n/t

[sandnsea]

41. Oddly enough

People accused my daughter of the exact same thing because she chose not to. MYOB ought to apply across the board.

[Ellen Forradalom]

209. Yeah, the 'milk nazi' thing is no good either

Way way too many strong feelings on either side. While I was a gung-ho breastfeeder, my mother reminded me that I was a Sanilac child and turned out OK.

[Karenina]

72. My mother told me the same thing on her visit.

The milk ceased to flow. In the car driving home after dropping her off at the airport, the plane she was on flew over the 405 and I had an immediate "let-down" response... STOP THE CAR! Let my baby nurse, verdammt nochmal!!!

[susanna]

167. Are you KIDDING me?

She hasn't seen the news stories about passed on antibodies, good fat (yes, fat) nutrients, etc.? Wow. That is something.

I have no children at this point, but if I ever do (and that window is shrinking LOL) they WILL be breast-fed. Gawd. The idea...

[gollygee]

57. My mom told me that

My cousin was breastfed and is a lesbian. Therefore, all breastfed girls grow up to be lesbians.

:crazy:

I told her that I'd keep her posted on the sexuality front when she gets a little older.

[LostinVA]

233. That might surprise my mother......

Maybe she had a wet nurse I didn;'t know about who made me a lesbian....

[HulaChicken]

130. I met a woman who was shocked that

her breasts could produce milk. I met another woman who chose not to breastfeed because it sounded too "dirty." *sigh* It's such a shame that society has dictated to us how we feel about ourselves.

[FreedomAngel82]

217. Wha???

Breastfeeding leads to being a lesbian? What in the world? Isn't breast milk supposed to have minearls and the like for the baby and they're healthier with their mothers milk instead of from a cow? Oh yes. What a weird country we live in. I remember a few Sunday's a go at my church there was this woman sitting infront of my brother and she had a little boy (a couple months old) and during service she breastfed him. There was a nursery where she could have some privacy but she was surrounded on both sides by people in her family. My brother was a bit uncomfortable with it but I couldn't care less. I was supposed to be paying attention to the preacher anyways and not a breast. I have them so it doesn't bother me. ;)

[MountainLaurel]

235. Think the SIL was a fundie

And you know how they are about body parts. Apparently, seeing your mother's naked breast as an infant will turn you into a lesbian: You'll learn to like them too much?

[Ilsa]

19. I talk to several women a year who are told out in public "You can't do

that here," when in fact, the law in Texas forbids them from harassing them as long as it isn't private property. (There are still some confusing issues being worked out in Tx.)

Good for Wisconsin! Excellent.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. No one ever harassed me for feeding my baby

[HulaChicken]

69. So it's not a problem?

That's like saying, "I was never ostracized for declining to pray." or "I've never experienced chauvanism." Or "I'm black & I haven't experienced racism." or "I'm gay & no one tells me who I can & can't marry."

[GreenPartyVoter]

97. Not saying that. Just saying I was lucky enough to never encounter

that situation.

[htuttle]

17. That's my Fred!

[Neil Lisst]

20. Mother's milk is best!!

I'm a big advocate of mother's milk for babies. It's nature's way, and it's smarter than formula and doctors and medicines.

How did we ever get here? We have T&A nonstop in commercials for NFL games, cheerleaders on the side, but God help us if a woman feeds her baby in a public place using a breast for its primary purpose.

[mn723]

25. I have no problem

with women breast feeding in public. If you are offended by seeing a breast than you have lived an extremely sheltered life.

On the other hand, during my freshman year of college a professor occasionally breast fed her baby while in front of the class lecturing.....I didn't appreciate that. If women do it tastefully there is nothing wrong with breast feeding in public.

[ohio_liberal]

27. Oh here we go with "tastefully"

:eyes:

[mn723]

29. So you think breast feeding

while lecturing a class of college students is tasteful?

[ohio_liberal]

30. Feeding a baby is feeding a baby

I don't care about the when's, how's, and why's. You shouldn't either. It's not about you or your comfort levels.

[mn723]

35. Ok.....I guess we disagree

:pals:

[mondo joe]

38. The real problem is feeding while lecturing - not BREAST feeding.

The professor should be lecturing - not feeding.

But other than that it's her business.

[ohio_liberal]

43. She couldn't do both at the same time?

Why not?

[Texasgal]

46. EXACTLY...

What? People cannot eat and talk at the same time? Drink a glass of water while lecturing?

Sounds like the same thing to me.

ON edit: spelling

[ohio_liberal]

49. I used to breastfeed and do the laundry, make peanut butter sandwiches

I'm sure I've lost all my skills now. :D

[HulaChicken]

134. I know a midwife

who delivers babies while her baby is strapped to her back in a sling, and conducts prenatal exams while breastfeeding, handles interviews while breastfeeding, etc, etc. She is AMAZING!

[mondo joe]

241. The students are paying for the professor's time and attention -

not for her to feed her kids while doing it. That's what daycare is for.

I have zero problem with anyone breastfeeding anywhere on their own time.

[WildClarySage]

254. I had an instructor who used to knit while giving a lecture.

I guess nobody ever accused her of not knitting 'tastefully'. :eyes:

This whole thing boils down to prudery and repression. Oh those horrible women evil temptresses feeding their babies and tormenting all those innocent men into breast fantasies! :sarcasm:

[gollygee]

68. If the baby is hungry then, then the baby's got to eat

There aren't always a lot of options. Maybe the baby wouldn't take a bottle.

[HulaChicken]

133. and speaking of bottles...

the only way to give a baby breastmilk via a bottle is to buy a breastpump, but there are no laws requiring standards on breastpumps, and most of them are downright TORTURE machines...that is, unless you happen to have enough money to buy the EXPENSIVE ones. And speaking of money, formula is OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. These corporations would LOVE it if we all stopped breastfeeding.

[Ms. Toad]

164. It's not that hard to pump by hand.

(I agree, most pumps are torture - which is why I quickly abandoned them for hand pumping the few times I needed to set aside a bottle.)

[HulaChicken]

168. Didn't work for me...

And I tried several. The Avent pump was the absolute best. Some women are milk-tastic, but I could never get more than an ounce at a time. Usually it was more like a half an ounce. I think the problem might have been pump-anxiety...but also because I have a very, very slow flow, and it is agonizingly slow to fill the thing up, and my hand & wrist would be exhausted. Thankfully, I was stronger the second time around. I used no bottles...not even pacifiers and just kept that kid to my breast every moment that I could, and I DID IT! He's 13 months now, and still going strong! HOORAY!

[Ms. Toad]

177. I was talking about no pump at all...

Much more productive than the non-electronic pumps I tried.

[HulaChicken]

180. Oh okay, sorry n/t

[HulaChicken]

178. See, the problem is, most people say, "I did it XYZ way, so you should too

Just because something was "easy" for one person, doesn't mean it's easy or even possible for another person. If it were so easy for every woman, then there would be a lot more breastfeeding in this country. But the ones who succeed choose to judge others who don't and make it seem like people like me just "didn't do it right" or "were lazy" or something like that. Maybe it's time that people who have a problem with public breastfeeding start asking people like ME why a bill like this is so important. It's not like it's there just to squash first amendment rights.

[Ms. Toad]

197. Yep.

I was lectured big time by the lactation assistant in the hospital because our position (which worked well for 18 months thereafter, thank you very much) was not to her liking. They forced me to permit them to give her water when she lost weight after birth - it was either a bottle or an IV. Her weight loss was fairly normal - just not what they were used to because very few mothers rejected supplemental water, particularly not ones who had C-sections (giving them a longer time to observe the weight loss). And that was the progressive hospital in town...

My nursing baby also went 4-6 hours between feedings nearly from day one (almost unheard of for babies consuming only breast milk), then nursed for an hour and a half. It worked for us - but freaked out most specialists who were certain I would be torn to shreds.

There needs to be a lot more support for figuring out what works rather than promotion of specific methods/positions/timing/etc.

[HulaChicken]

199. AGREED!

A friend of mine...a new mother...
recently gave birth to a baby who only weighed *gasp* 6.5 pounds. The doctor told her she was too small & instructed that she feed formula.
She did as he said.
*sigh*

[Ms. Toad]

210. As soon as they stopped holding my baby hostage

I ignored them, and we worked out a great nursing relationship. She had one bottle of water after she came home (my mother's insistence). After that she pretty much refused bottles - even when they had the good stuff in them. I gave her a choice - she could learn to drink from a bottle, or she could go every where with me. (....I'm kinda rethinking all of the travel excitement she experienced as a wee one, now that she's a teenager who went off to Australia at age 12 without me and is talking about finding a career that will let her travel all over the world, but it seemed like a good idea at the time.)

Meanwhile, back to the point, it's kinda hard to fight the hospital (and my mother who was unable to nurse successfully) when I was recovering from the C-section, and was not allowed to have my child in my room.

(My mother-in-law would have snuck baby cereal into the milk starting at about a week old or so, if she could only have figured out how to get it inside my breasts :) )

[HulaChicken]

221. Grrrrrrrr.......... hospitals..............

My first baby was held hostage, too. I had my second baby in a birth center, in water, by candelight, caught by my own husband's hands. If I have a third baby, I think I'll have gotten the nerve up to have a home birth, so no one can meddle in my business. People forget that hospitals are buinesses (most of them) and are FOR-PROFIT. Even if they're not, they have liability to consider, so $$$$ motivates everything. Whatever happened to mother knowing what's best for her own baby?!?!? Sorry you had to go through that!
***NOTE: I'm not saying that everyone in the medical profession, or that everyone who works in a hospital is evil... I've known some great Dr's and nurses....but we still have to think about the hospital's bottom line & what really is the motivation sometimes.

[omshanti]

237. UNC Hospitals - FANTASTIC support for breastfeeding

I must say I am shocked to hear these things about hospitals - was this recently?
If anyone lives in North Carolina let me just recommend UNC Women and Children's hospitals. They have a midwifery department AND a specialized ob/gyn team, and lactation consultants who come aroudn to your hospital room, and whom you can call any time post-natally. (I just called mine a couple weeks ago!)

[Horse with no Name]

249. My granddaughter was born at a Catholic Hospital

in a fundie town...and they were pretty much gung ho that all the new moms should try breastfeeding...and actively supported it.
The lactation nurse visited several times a day, and the floor nurses reinforced the teachings and helped to troubleshoot.
They normally left the baby in the room unless the mom wanted her taken back to the nursery so they wouldn't interrupt the baby's natural schedule. However, my granddaughter was pretty sick when she was born...so she went back to the nursery every 2 hours for IV medication and assessment, but they made sure it didn't interfere.
They also didn't promote formula feeding by handing out the free diaper bags with formula, etc. like many hospitals do.
It was a refreshing--and unexpected--experience.

[omshanti]

253. Well... they DID hand out the free formula...

funnily enough, it was disguised as a "lactation support kit" which also had hand pump and breastmilk storage bags. My sister (a doctor) threw a hissy fit! We kept the nice bag, the pump parts, and donated the formula.
:-)

[kath]

220. oh, man - as a pediatrician, let me say that that is totally #^@!ing

ridiculous. That doc is a Moran. Maybe your friend should ask the hospital's lactation consultant or local LLL to send the cretin some educational materials. Sheesh.

[tblue37]

213. You don't need a pump. Pump by hand.

But wash your hands first.

[HulaChicken]

214. Nope, tried that....didn't work

It may work for some women, but not all. The only way I can successfully let down & get any reasonable amount of milk out is direct breastfeeding. I'm not the only one who is like this.

[gollygee]

251. That isn't very efficient

it might not create enough milk for the baby and it might not create enough stimulation to the mothers breasts for her to continue making milk.

[Ms. Toad]

269. Worked quite well for me.

Much better (more productive and less painful) than the mechanical pumps. The physical sensation was much closer to baby nursing than the artificial vacuum created by the mechanical ones. Didn't try the electronic pumps.

[gollygee]

270. All women are different

and we can't base a public policy on what works for one person.

[Ms. Toad]

271. I was responding to what seemed to me to be an assertion

by you that pumping by hand rather than using a device (suggested in the post to which you responded) "isn't very efficient it might not create enough milk for the baby and it might not create enough stimulation to the mothers breasts for her to continue making milk."

My comment had nothing to do with public policy. Just suggesting that your comment about the (in)efficiency of pumping by hand was not universally applicable.

Perhaps your "inefficient" response was attached to the wrong post?

[gollygee]

272. A lactation consultant told me that

when I asked if I needed a pump.

Perhaps I should have said "might be" because it depends on the mom.

[Ms. Toad]

273. My personal experience with lactation consultants

is that they are too focused on the statistical norms and have very little imagination about the wide range of entirely normal experiences.

Some misinformation I was given:

*You'll kill your back sitting that way (worked for 18 months - maybe the back death would have occurred in the 19th month of nursing...)

*You'll be torn to shreds nursing in that position (didn't happen during 18 months of nursing - never had to use any ointments/moisturizers/nipple protectors, etc.)

*You'll be torn to shreds nursing for 45 minutes on a side (didn't happen during 18 months of nursing - ditto the above)

*You need to nurse every couple of hours or so (generally didn't nurse any sooner than 4 hours after the end or the previous nursing session - and longer thereafter once food was introduced)

As far as mechanical pumping v. hand pumping - I could easily pump 2-3 times as much by hand as I could using a pump (which is the only thing that really matters in keeping the milk flowing). Hand pumping won't necessarily work for everyone - any more than it is universally true that you need to use a pump. It works often enough that if someone is having trouble with the pump (as several in this thread suggested they were) they ought to try pumping by hand.

[mondo joe]

242. If the child can't go without the mother then it's not time for her to

go back to work.

Who else on earth gets to bring a baby to work with them? Can you imagine a secretary with a crib set up next to her desk?

When you're on work time you're on work time - not childrearing.

[gollygee]

252. The university she works for apparently feels differently

and good for them.

And I have seen an office where a secretary had a pack n' play next to her desk with a baby.

[Ms. Toad]

171. Agreed.

And I'm a huge fan of breastfeeding (in public or private). Fought both my mother and mother-in-law on it for the 10 months in which I used no supplemental food/liquid. I nursed in restaurants, stores, shopping malls, wherever I was when my daughter got hungry.

But - I was a full time mom. Had I been forced to give that up (and I almost was), I would not have expected my employer to tolerate my parenting while I was being paid to work any more than I would have expected my employer to tolerate my writing letters to pen pals, caring for an aging parent, listening to music, or doing anything other than what was in my job description during the time my employer was paying me to work.

Students pay big bucks for the attention of a teacher - it is not appropriate to cheat them out of what they are paying for because the teacher has chosen not to (or cannot afford to) stay home with her little one.

[intheflow]

172. I agree.

It's not that the professor can't lecture and breastfeed at the same time, it's that she shouldn't. It's unprofessional in a traditional college classroom. Would she spoon feed her toddler while lecturing? Would she serve lunch to her kindergartner while at work? Would these actions make her more or less effective as a teacher? I'd say less effective, both because it would split her attention from her job (teaching) and and distract at least some students from their job (learning).

Breast milk can be pumped and stored to be bottle fed by a caretaker when the mother is at work. As a woman who breastfed, I would have no problem with her breastfeeding the child in the college cafeteria or anywhere else on campus while on break. And I certainly have no problem with a woman feeding her child in any public space in her free time. But while lecturing in a classroom? While arguing in front of a jury? While preaching in a pulpit? I agree that it's not yet culturally appropriate.

[HulaChicken]

173. that's the key...

"It's not yet culturally appropriate..."

But it should be. And it's going to take some brave women willing to go against the grain to help make it appropriate.

[intheflow]

187. It's gong to take brave men, too.

When men bottle feed babies at work then it will be culturally appropriate for women to breastfeed at work.

It's like I've always said, we'll know we've arrived when we have an African American/Asian/Latino paraplegic lesbian in the White House. (Now I'll change it to AA/A/L paraplegic lesbian breastfeeding in the White House. :)) Until then, we have to work break down the barriers one small step at a time.

[kath]

222. It would be nice if that"African American/Asian/Latina paraplegic lesbian"

was also an atheist. :-)

[Kailassa]

174. That's something I would love to see; ...

a preacher being able to breast-feed while she spoke from the pulpit.
Society can change, it has changed many times before.

[intheflow]

182. Absolutely, as well it should.

And God/dess knows I would love to live in a country where women could breastfeed OR men could bottle feed their babies at work. But I just don't see it happening anytime soon. I think we need to get people to accept the concept of breastfeeding in public during down times before we can advocate for breastfeeding on the job.

That's why I nominated the original post to the Greatest Page. One step at a time. "Step by step the longest march will be won."

[HulaChicken]

184. Men can breastfeed, too...

It's biologically possible. In fact, it's actually happened. I read a story about a man whose wife died & so he induced lactation so he could still give his baby the very best. But, society accepting that is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way off. *chuckle*

[Warren DeMontague]

198. Mine would probably taste like tabasco sauce

I have a feeling it wouldn't go over so well.

[HulaChicken]

201. LOL n/t

[intheflow]

208. Even if men can't breastfeed,

they can use thier nipples to pacify a child until the mother is able to feed the baby:

Are the men of the African Aka tribe the best fathers in the world?
The Guardian, June 15, 2005

It's a question that has united Aristotle, Darwin and my three-year-old in puzzlement: what exactly are male nipples for ? This week, the charity Fathers Direct came up with an answer, courtesy of some research it unearthed about a nomadic tribe of African hunter-gatherers. The answer, it seems, is the one my three-year-old (and Darwin, to be fair) suspected all along: male nipples are there as a stand-in for when mum isn't around and there's a squawking bambino in dire need of something to suck.

And, when you think about it, why ever not? Surely a male nipple, deficient though it is in terms of sustenance, gives a more pleasant sucking sensation than, say, a dummy.

That's certainly how it seemed to Professor Barry Hewlett, an American anthropologist who was the first person to spot male breastfeeding among the Aka Pygmy people of central Africa (total population around 20,000) after he decided to live alongside them in order to study their way of life more closely. By the time he noticed that babies were sometimes being suckled by their fathers, it wasn't as stunning a revelation, however, as it might have been had he spotted it going on in the breastfeeding room at Mothercare in Manchester.

Because by then Hewlett had realised that, when it comes to gender egalitarian parenting, the Aka - who call themselves the people of the forest - beat anyone else he'd ever studied hands down. According to the data he began collecting more than two decades ago, Aka fathers are within reach of their infants 47% of the time - that's apparently more than fathers in any other cultural group on the planet, which is why Fathers Direct has decided to dub the Aka "the best dads in the world".

(snip)

Lots more in this article. Our society could learn a lot from this social structure.

[HulaChicken]

216. THAT *gasp* IS *gasp* ... AWESOME!!!!!!

GAWD! If American men did that.... oh how wonderful it would be if my hubby could take on some of the suckling sometimes! Give my poor boobs a rest now and then! COOL!!!!!
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[HulaChicken]

185. Hey, I wanna nominate this thread

How many posts do I have to have before I'm allowed?????

[fortyfeetunder]

192. I nominate one in your name Hula Chicken

glad you are here!!!

[HulaChicken]

195. THANKS!

:hug:

[intheflow]

204. I'm not sure.

But you must be getting close. Welcome to DU, HulaChicken! :hi:

[HulaChicken]

191. thank you for nominating. it's so important to talk about. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

147. It's certainly more tasteful than letting the baby get hungry,

which will only cause it to get upset and very loud.

[Warren DeMontague]

196. How many babies have you had the direct pleasure of taking care of?

Just wondering.

Because when they're hungry, they're hungry. They don't tend to care much if there's a lecture scheduled.

[ContraBass Black]

28. Ordinary breastfeeding in public I don't have a problem with,

But that would make me uncomfortable.

Was she trying to make a point, or just taking advantage of the opportunity?

[mn723]

32. If she was making a point

it was way over my head......we were talking about Moby Dick

[gollygee]

58. Or maybe the baby was hungry?

could be. . .

[HulaChicken]

53. Please check out post #52

thank you, kindly
Marci

[Occulus]

132. yeah

because it's so much better for her kid to go hungry than it is for you to maintain your comfort level.

[HulaChicken]

135. and it's also about feminism, too

Women should not have to choose between being a mother or being a professional. I'm a feminist, and I don't want to be a MAN, I want to be a woman with options. If we really want to see more women in leadership positions, even in politics, then we have to be supportive of ALL women, and there are a good chunk of women that choose to be mothers. If you support women in the workplace, you gotta support mothers in the workplace...and one good way to support that is to PROTECT BREASTFEEDING!

[kestrel91316]

186. Gasp! I thought I was the only remaining "feminist".......

[Dora]

264. That's just wrong.

I've read the replies to your post, and I have to say that I think your professor crossed way over the line of appropriate behavior.

If her child was four and she fed him lunch at the same time as conducting class, it would be seen as inappropriate. Breastfeeding an infant in class is just as inappropriate. Students don't pay tuition to have their professors bring their children to class and get fed.

[JVS]

31. How does asking to cover up=harassing?

[Mandate My Ass]

36. I see things regularly in public that are out of my personal comfort zone

yet I manage not attempt to control others' legal right to practice what is within their personal comfort zone. And no, the things that bother me have nothing to do with nudity or sexuality, just general assholery.

As ohio-lib said, if you don't like it, don't look.

[JVS]

40. You didn't answer the question. I still don't see how it is harassment

Take smoking outside for example. If I were sitting at the bus stop and asked someone to please stop smoking the cigarette or at least do so in a way that it won't bother me (for example taking a few steps away from the bench), sure they have no obligation to do as I ask, but my asking doesn't seem to constitute harassment. Similarly, I don't see how merely being asked to cover up makes one the victim of harassment.

[LostinVA]

234. Yeah, smoke blowing in your face is so similar to

A woman suckling her baby. :rofl:

[Horse with no Name]

250. I totally agree

Not to offend someone--but seeing someone with orange spiked hair, a hundred tattooes and having everything pierced with chains running from here to there...wearing bathrobes and pink fuzzy slippers in public was more uncomfortable for me than a woman breastfeeding (saw this person at Target in Phoenix last year,lol).
If we could ever get past a frat boy mentality, our world would be a better place.
We shouldn't be ashamed of normal body functions.
I went into a public restroom the other day and this WASPY woman apologized as she left the stall because she pooped.
:wtf:
I just laughed and told her it WAS a bathroom and not to worry about it.
People should be able to pass gas, pee and poop without feeling bad about it...same with breastfeeding.
We really do need to get over our societal hangups.

[Texasgal]

39. Why ask a woman to cover up?

:shrug:

[JVS]

42. I don't care why one would ask. What I care about is harmless requests...

being made out as harassment.

[Texasgal]

45. I can agree that some people might think

It's harmless.

But breast-feeding a baby is not going to cause you or anyone any harm. It's not like smoking ( second hand smoke ) or any other plethora of things that can cause harm. I just added that notion in response to your post above.

To some women, being asked to "cover up " while breast-feeding does constitute harassment, she is not hurting anyone, she is simply providing nourishment to her child. I don't think any Woman should be asked to cover-up personally, and anyone who does ask has some REALLY WEIRD hang-ups.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that you are eating lunch at your desk and your co-worker can smell your lunch.... do you ask your co-worker to go and eat somewhere else because the "smell" of the food is bothering you? NO. You don't do that... it's silly and can be construed as "harassing".

[JVS]

48. Well that's just the thing. If I'm at my desk working and my neighbor...

starts eating some really foul stuff, I would ask them to do so elsewhere. I don't think that that should qualify as harassment. Similarly, I don't see how asking someone to cover up would be harassment unless it were done using speech that would already qualify it as harassment independent of the situation (e.g "Cover up you disgusting jerk!")

[Texasgal]

51. Good point...

But what if your co-worker said " NO, JVS, I am going to eat my smelly food right here"

What would happen then?

You see, many breast-feeding Moms don't just get asked to cover-up, they are asked to leave the premises, I have heard stories of parks, restaurant's and movie theaters. They are asked to either cover up or leave. It's bullshit.... AND...

It's HARASSMENT!

[HulaChicken]

56. Happened to me!

My husband just got his union job in a new city & the orientation meeting was for new members & their spouses. In fact, spouses were HIGHLY encouraged to attend. My baby was only 2 weeks old & we didn't know anyone in the new state. So, I brought him with me & he was actually a REALLY good baby, well, until he got hungry. He started to cry, so I discretely breastfed him. I even put a blanket over his head & turned my back away from the speaker. The guy kept giving me dirty looks & told me next time to leave the baby with a sitter. WTF? He slept the whole time...you wouldn't have even known he was there, until I had to feed him. This guy didn't like that I was doing something "inappropriate" in his boys' club. I was so embarrased. Jerk.

[Texasgal]

61. My point exactly...

You should have NEVER been asked to cover-up.

What's more disconcerning is the fact that we are actually having to defend this on DU.

I am so sorry that this happened to you, the man sounds like a jerk with some SERIOUS issues.

[Kailassa]

63. How would you feel

if you are sitting in a public place, and a Muslim man who found the sight of a lady's face offensive stopped in front of you and asked you to cover your face up?

I agree that it's not a good comparison, as there is no need for you to have your face uncovered, and the baby's life depends on it's carer feeding it.

[HulaChicken]

66. What a beautiful picture! n/t

[Fleshdancer]

85. You just asked the perfect question

"How would you feel if you are sitting in a public place, and a Muslim man who found the sight of a lady's face offensive stopped in front of you and asked you to cover your face up?"

I'm going to use this argument.

[GreenPartyVoter]

99. :^( I miss having little babies.

[Book Lover]

140. Ditto!

That picture above reminded me of how peaceful it was to feed the little fella. Now, it's watch out for the spoon! Pasta will be launched!

[Sabriel]

162. Me, too. I'm on the verge of a false letdown

And I stopped two years ago. Too much BF talk!

[GreenPartyVoter]

244. I stopped 3 years ago when he was 2 and a half. He still comes up to me &

smooshes his face into my breast or pats it or squeezes it. Funny thing is so does his bigger brother who was a bottle baby. *lol*

[youthere]

118. For the life of me...

I can't figure out how someone can possibly be offended by this. That is so beautiful words escape me. It makes me a bit sad because I miss these moments with my children. I say hurray for Wisconsin.

[kath]

224. Wow, what a great picture! Really makes me wish I still had a little

nursling.

[HulaChicken]

47. I was unable to cover up

on many occasions & for various reasons. Both of my babies were born in the summer time & it was VERY VERY HOT, swelteringly hot & there is no way that I was going to cover my tiny newborn with a blanket & create an airless, steamroom environment. Also, as my babies got older, they don't like the blanket and cry & thrash around trying to get the blanket off of them (and this is very common...many women experience this once the baby is able to grab things.) It would make a bigger scene to try to keep the blanket over their heads than it would just just feed without a blanket. ALSO... most of the time you really can't see anything because the baby's head is covering most of the breast. When I nurse, you can see a lot less of my boob than some of the outfits that some women wear. And be honest, what you're actually uncomfortable with is the idea that another human being is sucking on my breast, right? It evokes a sexual thought, because that's all our society is ever exposed to when it comes to breasts...they are just sex-balloons, aren't they? And the idea of someone sucking on a breast is mostly thought of as sexual...wouldn't you agree? But honestly, it's so not about that when I'm feeding my baby, and when you ask me to cover myself up, it insinuates that I'm engaging in something like that & you don't want to see it... kind of like how you see a couple of people making out & you say, "go get a room! I don't want to see that!" It's offense to ME that what I'm doing with my child is considered sexual. It's offensive to tell me that what I'm doing is not welcome. You're not inhaling my second-hand breastmilk. You just think what I'm doing is gross...and that's offensive & hurtful.

[ohio_liberal]

54. Great post

:thumbsup:

It's true that you normally can't see much when breastfeeding. It's just the idea that you're doing it upsets so many ignorant people.

[seaglass]

84. Seriously, and I never breastfed my children, I always heard

that breastfeeding was an intimate moment between mother and child, a bonding moment, and I believed it.

My uncomfortable feeling when seeing a woman breastfeed is because it feels like I'm intruding on someone's intimate moment.

Clearly based on what has been described here, my beliefs are just a myth, most likely propaganda put out by doctors to convince women there is something more to breastfeeding that just its function.

[HulaChicken]

108. It's a different kind of intimacy

it's not like the intimacy when I'm having SEX!
If I cry while telling someone something personal, I'm being intimate with them. Are you going to tell me to cover my face while I cry in public? It most certainly IS intimate to feed your child with your breast, but intimacy does not equal SEXUAL.

[seaglass]

247. I don't know why you're having such a difficult time understanding

this.

If I see you crying in public with a friend, of course I'm going to feel that I'm intruding on your private moment and I'm going to look away.

Did I say ANYTHING about asking someone who was breastfeeding to cover up? Nope, didn't think so.

[ohio_liberal]

110. Not for me, not in a public setting

When I was out and about and needed to feed the baby it was just dinner, capisce? It's not like at home when we were sitting in a rocking chair together enjoying a quiet moment or cuddling.

[Eric J in MN]

87. Free speech includes the right to say rude things.

We don't need the First Amendment for the speech we like.

We need the First Amendment for the speech we despise.

[HulaChicken]

115. The same arguement can be used for better...

...laws to protect breastfeeding. The more loose we are about protecting a women doing something vulnerable (and sometimes dangerous) in public, the more likely people are to infringe on her rights. We need stronger protections, not weaker ones.
Thanks to all of you who've "got my back" while I try to nurse.

[HulaChicken]

144. Directing "free speech" at one person is "intimidation" n/t

[HulaChicken]

52. You may be sabotaging the woman.

Keep in mind that there are MANY MANY MANY women that won't feed in public because of this very thing... because so many people let them know that what they are doing is unwelcome. Keep in mind, that if a woman does not feed her baby on demand...that means feed him regularly and when he's hungry...not an hour from now, but RIGHT NOW...then her body will produce less milk. Milk production is based on a supply & demand situation. The sucking action of the baby actually creates a chemical/hormonal response in the mother's body to create more milk. A newborn baby may need to nurse as often as once every single hour...but at least once every three hours (at the least!) and some babies take their time, taking 20 minutes at a time to get their milk. During the first three months of life, in order to establish a successful breastfeeding relationship, there are some mothers that spend more time breastfeeding than just about anything else. If women aren't welcome & encourage to breastfeed in public, then they may be intimidated into either becoming shut-ins...never leaving the home, or will simply give up on breastfeeding. Even one missed feeding can affect milk supply. Then, if the woman doesn't make enough milk, she may feel the need to give the baby formula, which fills the baby up, so he will spend even less time at the breast. The whole thing snowballs from there. The less the baby nurses, the less milk the breasts make. The less milk, the more formula is needed. The more formula, the less the baby nurses. I've seen it time & time again, where a woman says she just "dried up" and could not breastfeed like she wanted to. Many mothers are devistated by this (including myself.) Keep in mind that the idea of exposing your breast in public is scary enough for many of us. Add to that, that it's difficult to master breastfeeding for many women & trying to coordinate it all successfully under a blanket, or while other people are watching us is intimidating... and then also knowing that there are people out there that are "grossed out" about it creates a really intimidating environment. No wonder so many babies are formula fed. Next time you see a breastfeeding mother, the kindest thing you can do is give her a smile or a nod of encouragement that she's doing her best & you support her in this uphill battle...during the most vulnerable & scary months of new motherhood. That would have meant a lot to me.
Thank you

[put out]

67. Thank you for that. I could add to it. n/t

[Gold Metal Flake]

103. A great big Welcome To DU HulaChicken!

The comodification and commercialization of the female breast can not survive the insistance of women to utilize the breast for it's natural primary purpose. Subservience to the commodification of the breat is a subjugation to corporate dominance. Or some shit. What I am saying is I will gladly give up my personal comfort zone in support of women who would take back their body from corporate America and their dependence on the female breast as an advertising gimmick. I am sure that repeated exposure to women simply feeding their children in the method that nature intended will acustom (sp?) many in the general public to what is now still a (wrongly) rare sight.

No one had a right to prevent this most basic act of care for our most precious citizens.

[fortyfeetunder]

143. Sic'em Hula Chicken!

welcome to DU :hi:

[HulaChicken]

146. Don't mess with me...

I BITE! *grin*
:hi: thanks, glad to be here

[Dora]

265. Great post. People need to know these things about breastfeeding.

In those first several weeks it is IMPERATIVE that mothers feed their babies on demand, on cue.

I have an eight-month old son who's still breastfeeding, though now he's down to two nursings and two expressed milk bottles a day. Due to feelings of self-consciousness and physical awkwardness, I was never quite comfortable with public feedings, and so I felt trapped much of the time. I nursed him at a mall once, and it wasn't much fun, so I eventually just avoided being out with him if I thought he'd be getting hungry soon.

Those few occasions where I actually did feed him in public would have been horrifying if somebody had dared to approach me to ask me to "cover up."

[gollygee]

59. Mine didn't like to be covered up

she was born in the spring so she was nursing all summer and would get too hot. And she liked to look up at me.

[spuddonna]

227. LOL! That reminds me of a time my son and I were at the mall...

He was my first, not sure how many months old he was...

The mall was packed, some big holiday, and I was trying to be discreet and brought a small blanket for coverage. (I got lots of stares from older ladies that made me uncomfortable.) But my son liked looking at me while he nursed, and liked to pat my cheek (waa! I miss my babies!) so he thought this was a game and kept pulling the blanket off! He was giggling and kept popping off and milk was squirting everywhere! lol I'm trying to get him to stop laughing and latch on and finally ended up putting the blanket over BOTH our heads. People must have thought I was nuts! LOL

Actually, a nice older gentleman came over to me after and said "Your baby is so beautiful... You obviously take good care of him!" :) I was ready to cry...

[Phentex]

236. I wouldn't want to eat with a blanket over my face either....

or a cloth on my head.

[gollygee]

65. for a post-partum hormonal woman

who is struggling with a TON of stuff, that would be a very hurtful thing.

I was afraid to leave the house for a while because my daughter nursed so often. I finally just got over it. At first I would only nurse in public if my husband was with me so he could tell people off if they complained. Then I got bolder. I received a couple of odd looks but most people couldn't even tell she was nursing - they just thought she was asleep. But even if I hadn't been able to do it pretty discretely I would have to do it and it isn't right that mothers in that situation have to stay home for months on end in case their babies get hungry.

The majority of moms I know weren't able to cover up their babies because the babies would get too hot and/or just plain didn't like it.

[Warren DeMontague]

165. Mess with my wife during my kid's lunch

and you're liable to find out.

[mzmolly]

194. Because your shaming a mother for feeding her child? Imagine that

bottle fed babies were a societal taboo? Imagine bottle feeding was so controversial that mothers were told they weren't allowed to eat in a restaurant if they chose to feed their child via formula/bottle?

This scenario happens daily to breastfeeding mothers.

I'm not a legal expert, but I believe that if the laws in a given state indicate something is legal, and owners of establishments continue to ignore this, it may be considered harassment? One might liken it to refusing to serve people of color? Perhaps it should considered discrimination instead, I dunno? I do know that something needs to change though.

[HeeBGBz]

33. Just give em a squirt of milk in the eye

That'll put em in a tizzy.

[ohio_liberal]

55. Heh. I did that once

It was an accident though :)

[VTMechEngr]

44. Anyone notice the Survey on the site.

Its totally biased against the its always ok folks. We don't have that option.

[AllyCat]

266. Yeah, I noticed that too. There was no option for "anytime"

which is exactly where I stand. I'm so lucky that my husband is 100% supportive of breatfeeding and will probably pop anyone in the nose who ever dares to say anything to me.

[meganmonkey]

50. Excellent

That's what boobs are for, ya know.

:thumbsup:

[Fountain79]

60. Maybe it's just me....

But I have a real problem with this law. A woman has to feed her kid...yes. Breast milk is best...of course. When a child is hungry a child is hungry. But since when is it a crime to be an asshole?

[Texasgal]

64. It's NOT a crime to be an asshole...

But to HARRASS a Women feeding her child is bullshit!

When you ask someone to LEAVE or COVER-UP, you have VIOLATED her and her CHILD.

[Fountain79]

70. ??

Violated her and/or her child? No it's being an insensitive asshole. What would constitute harassment? Suppose I am in a restaurant with friends in Wisconsin, and some woman starts to breastfeed her child. I can be a sarcastic bastard given the right mood and let's say if my comment reached her ears would that be harassment? One persons sarcasm is another's harassment.

[HulaChicken]

71. So, you're against protecting a woman's dignity?

If you're my boss & you pinch my ass & tell me you want to rock my world, legally, I can sue your ass. You got a problem with that, too?

[Fountain79]

77. Here we go....

I was waiting for someone to bring up Sexual Harrassment. I won't even dignify that scenario with an answer because you apparently are completely missing the point.

If this is a law that is stating that physically removing a woman from a public place or intimidating a woman is punishable fine. From my perspective this is saying that expressing your displeasure within earshot of the woman is wrong and could be interpreted as harrassment. That I do not like. For me that is a violation of a person's right to express displeasure with a situation. I'm half mexican, a person has a perfect right to express their displeasure with me walking into a room.

Basically if this is a law fining people for saying things that other people don't like then I am against it.

[Texasgal]

78. Here Fountain 79

Tell me what is so horrible about this picture

[Texasgal]

73. My child is eating and drinking

Just like you and your frinds... what's the difference?

[Fountain79]

79. yawn...

Yeah..but I am not exposing a body part that if shown otherwise would get me arrested for indecent exposure.

[Texasgal]

83. You just MADE my point! THANK YOU!

It's the exposing of the mothers breast.

Do you have a serious hangup with a Womans breasts?

It's not something for you to OGLE, they are there for a REASON!

Thank you for making my point!

[Fountain79]

86. Ok...

Ok...can I go into a restaurant without a shirt? I mean it's my body, why be ashamed of it?

[Texasgal]

88. I have NO PROBLEM with that...

If your gonna do it, so should I.

[Fountain79]

93. umm...

The point is I can't. I can't walk into many restaurants without a shirt on. They will promptly remove me and tell me to return with a shirt. I don't blame them.

I have ABSOLUTELY no problem with a woman breastfeeding in public. The scenario I presented was just that...a scenario. Still I repeat what I said earlier, making a law against being an asshole, makes no sense.

[Texasgal]

100. Thing is...

Why would you want to go to a restaurant without a shirt on? Are you HOT? Are you just wanting attention?

My baby is eating just like all you other folks in the restaurant.

Why should *I* be asked to cover up?

My baby is EATING, what's next? Asking people with bad table manners to leave?

Bad table disgust me!

For the record, I am childless and nearing forty, I have no plans to have a baby.

I just simply don't understand what the problem is.

[ohio_liberal]

101. A woman doesn't have to take off her shirt to breastfeed

Usually it only takes unbuttoning two or three buttons, or simply lifting up the front of the shirt on one side and letting it fall most of the way back down when baby is latched on. You'd see less of my breast when I was feeding a baby than if I were wearing skimpy bikini. But of course you'd KNOW that the baby was breastfeeding. That's what makes people so upset.

[HulaChicken]

104. Being an a-hole actually litterally STOPS breastfeeding

A woman's breasts can be compared to a faucet. But instead of having handles to turn the milk on, we rely on a hormonal response. It's something that we can't really totally control...much like an orgasm. If the setting isn't right, or if we aren't in the mood, or if we're too nervous, then the orgasm isn't going to happen. Mind over matter. That's exactly how a woman's breast work. It's called "let down." If she's stressed out, the milk won't come. So, by being an a-hole, you are litterally STOPPING my milk from coming & preventing my child from being fed. You just don't understand this. It's not as simple as harrasement. I was surrounded by A-holes in 2002, and I couldn't let down & I failed at breastfeeding, and the big formula corporations CASHED in bigtime. They should send you a thank you.

[Phentex]

256. If the shirt prohibited your ability to eat, then by all means take it off

I mean, if you could *not* eat with a shirt on...let's say your mouth was in your chest, then why would anyone care if you had to take your shirt off to eat? Some babies cannot eat anything but the mom's breastmilk. Nothing should get in the way of that.

[HulaChicken]

92. Fountain79, will you please read post #52?

I would be very much appreciative.
Thank you kindly

[Fountain79]

98. I read it.

Perhaps I should explain myself again. A child needs to feed, a woman needs to nurse, I understand. I was breastfed, if I ever get married and have kids someday I would hope that my wife would see the importance of it as well.

However what is the line between being an asshole and actually posing harm to the mother and child.

[Texasgal]

105. YOU POSE HARM

When you ask a woman to COVER-UP.

She feels UNWELCOME and CANNOT NOURISH her child.

[HulaChicken]

106. refer to post #104

[Warren DeMontague]

170. The line is, it's hard enough to feed a baby that needs to eat every 2-3

hours.

If this legislation forces people to leave breastfeeding women alone and get over their uptightness around the naked mammary gland performing its natural function, I'm all for it.

Seriously. Wait'll you have a baby. It's a real eye-opener.

[Angry Girl]

161. And who made up *those* stupid laws?

A bunch of puritanical, church-going "good Christians" who see nothing but indecency everywhere they look. They would pervert even an innocent baby taking its natural nourishment from its mother!

America is THE most f*cked up country EVER when it comes to how we perceive the human body. No wonder there are so many sex crimes here!

I mean, you can't show a tit on TV without people having a heart attack and the idiots in charge are preaching abstinence (like THAT ever worked!) such that teenagers are getting married just to get laid.

I can't wait to moveto Canada!

[Fountain79]

169. Welll

Do you honestly want to see my hairy pot-bellied figure in all it's glory the next time you snack at Applebee's?

[HulaChicken]

175. You're just looking to fight more n/t

[Fountain79]

176. no

I was trying to make a joke and make fun of myself at the same time.

[HulaChicken]

181. Okay, then I respect your

pot-bellied hairiness in all its glory.
*grin*

[Angry Girl]

200. LOL!

As long as you're well-behaved and don't start shrieking and crying and running around the place like a loon, I can easily not pay attention to you! (not that you would!) :-)

[HulaChicken]

76. wait, I got a better one....

what if a bunch of straight guys chased a little gay teenager home everyday calling him a f*g & threatened him bodily harm? Should that be legal? Think it's a stretch to compare the two? Maybe...but both situations are about fear & intimidation...and the days that I failed my firstborn... I was intimidated. I was afraid to feed him. THAT should be illegal. People who don't understand this concept are usually people who've never had to breastfeed.

[HulaChicken]

80. If you made a big enough scene, you'd be kicked out

I don't think there's a restaurant manager on the map that wouldn't escort you out if you made a big enough scene & made another diner uncomfortable... be they a minority diner, a woman diner, a gay diner, an obese diner, or a breastfeeding diner. And when enough of society doesn't respect these kinds of NORMAL social considerations, then we have to make a @$#(@ law.

[Kailassa]

82. Have you ever known any dairy farmers?

Where I grew up, if you upset any of the precious milch cows, (each named after a local woman,) you would never be welcome on that property again. An upset cow produces less milk, and sometimes can't let the milk down at all.

Humans, on the whole, tend to be even more sensitive and temperamental than cows. When a feeding mother is made to feel your disapproval, particularly if it's her first baby, she can become unable to feed at all. Even if she can manage to still feed, her increased tension is likely to be picked up by the child, making it unable to suck properly.

Young mothers are very sensitive to the feelings of the community, and when they are doing something vital to their baby's welfare, deserve to have the encouragement and protection of that community.

(The farmer mentioned above seemed to love making my prudish mother blush by telling everyone how much milk her namesake had produced that week.)

[HulaChicken]

94. BRAVO! I forgot about that...

...I remember lactation consultants telling me part of the reason I wasn't making enough milk for my babies was because of stress. It would have meant SO MUCH if I had been welcome & felt safe in more places. I was absolutely devistated that I failed to breastfeed my firstborn successfully.

[Kailassa]

114. Would the DUers defending "free speech"

in this context mind if I walk up to their children and insult them?

The modern-day, materialistic me-first community, grown far too large for people bumping into each other in public places to know each other, tends to grow more and more harsh for the more vulnerable amongst us.

I was once treated with contempt on a tram and forced off it because I was breast-feeding, even though I had a shawl completely covering myself and the baby's head. And the tram authorities stood by the conductor's decision. I still remember the humiliation, and never travelled in the city with a baby again.

That was 30 years ago, and I hoped, when accompanying my now grown daughter into the city with her baby that things would be different. But no, whenever she had to breastfeed people would make a point of scowling, commenting and insulting her until she was in tears, and like me, no longer goes ito the city with her baby.

I hope that when my grand-daughter has grown, things will be different.

[Fountain79]

117. geez

Again agreeing with something and something being made illegal are two different things.

[HulaChicken]

120. I think you just want to be "right"

you are clearly passive aggressive & it is more important for you to be "right" than it is to stop and think about why this bill is so important.

[Fountain79]

124. Oh...let's refrain from name calling now...

My point is simple. This is a discussion board is not. It's a place where people DISCUSS. I am making the point that a law(not the woman breastfeeding) like this makes me nervous. It makes me ponder the possibility of other laws being passed that are meant to "protect" people from certain speech because of the stress involved.

[HulaChicken]

127. Your right to swing your fist wildly ends...

...where another person's face begins. The speech is protected until it causes harm & infringes on someone else's rights. Period. It's been said repeatedly over & over again how your speech is harmful to me & my baby. You're just ignoring that. That's what passive-aggressive is. Look it up.

[Kailassa]

129. Fountain79, I really did not expect conspiracy theories from you.

Much as I distrust the present government, I really don't see this as their first step toward gagging you.

The first steps in that direction were taken years ago, and I hope you argued against their introduction at least as vehemently as you are arguing against protecting a breastfeeding mother from harassment.

[Fountain79]

137. I know I said I wouldn't post anymore..I couldn't resist

Well I was a child when the drug war was going on the 80's. Knowing then what I know now I feel like that it was and still is an unfortunate growth in the polic power of the federal government that punishes rather than truly looks for the source of problem. I think at the very least marijuana should be legal. I was furious when I found out reps and senators from my own state(MO), approved a flag burning amendment ban amendment, and called them to tell them my displeasure. Anything else you want to know?

[HulaChicken]

138. so what is your solution, then?

When young mothers like me are harrased in public & whose children suffer for it, and there's no one around to defend me & I have to defend my own little self, while holding a newborn, trying to cover my exposed breast, feeling vulnerable? What is your solution?

[HulaChicken]

142. Got nothin? Yeah, that's what I thought. n/t

[Fountain79]

150. Are we 12?

I'll just agree to disagree with you how about that? I personally question a law that says that a person can be fined for perhaps making a remark that might "offend" someone else. Perhaps I misread the intention of the bill, and if that's the case then I was mistaken. However what I interperted this could mean someone who expresses any at all discomfort could be fine. If I misread the bill than that was my fault, ok?

[HulaChicken]

153. ok =)

<satisfied>
:smoke:

[Kailassa]

149. Well, as you offer to answer,

I was enquirying about your reactions to the patriot act.

http://www.fepproject.org/commentaries/patriotactupdate.html

[Fountain79]

152. simple

I think it's scarcy.

[kestrel91316]

203. You have no right to stop a woman from breastfeeding under this

law, and you have no right to attempt to stop a woman from breastfeeding, either by words or deeds. What is so difficult about this?? Don't want the fine?? Don't harrass people exercising their rights.

[Fountain79]

275. ok

So a person who expresses an opinion should be free from criticism of that opinion?

[Citizen Jane]

102. Bingo!

Tension makes it harder to nurse. For some women (myself having been one) it literally makes the flow come to a stop. Then you have to deal not only with the person asking you to cover up (basically trying to shame you by implying you are doing something offensive) but you have a baby desparately trying to coax more milk from you (usually by sucking so hard it hurts and/or crying). Odds are, the baby is getting tense too because like dogs sense fear, babies sense tension in their Mommies.

In other words, it is not just a matter of being offensive, it is a matter of preventing a woman from providing nourishment to her child. The hormonal/adrenal response of tension is for many nursing Moms quite beyond their control. Don't believe me? Ask my friend whose cat's cry was so close to her newborn's cry that it caused her to letdown and squirt milk. It is not just a psychological reaction, it is also a physiological one designed to keep the defenseless newborn alive.

Edited for typos

[HulaChicken]

111. Yep, LLL tells you to "think"....

about your baby, or look at your baby's face to encourage letdown. It's pretty hard to look at your baby's face if it's covered by a blanket.

[AspenRose]

260. Funny story about "letdown"

My OB/Gyn was a resident in med school when her first son was born. She worked in the L&D unit so she was surrounded by crying babies. She took two weeks off and then was back at the hospital making her rounds. Only this time she was constantly having to change her bra pads because being around crying babies all the time made her milk come down!

"Gussssh," constantly, she said! :-)


*DR, currently nursing her 8 month old son as she reads this thread :-) *

[kestrel91316]

193. If the law says she has the RIGHT to breastfeed in public and

you tell her to stop, that is attempting to deny her her legal/civil rights. 'Harrassment" is putting it charitably.

[buddysmellgood]

189. Geez! What am I going to do with my weekends now?

[Eric J in MN]

81. Saying other rude things to people is Free Speech,

so why wouldn't this be protected by the First Amendment?

[Texasgal]

90. But raising a stink and trying to have Women

REMOVED from establishments obviously constitutes HARASSMENT!

Thank GOD!

[Eric J in MN]

96. Forcing a woman to leave is already illegal in Wisconsin(nt)

nt

[HulaChicken]

91. It's not about speech...

If I am told to "cover up or leave," you are forgetting that there is an expectation there. This law protects a nursing woman's right to be anywhere that anyone else is. And, if you'll read some of the other posts, you'll see that it's not just a simple choice to "cover up." Either we breastfeed with exposed breasts, or we leave. Those are the choices. I shouldn't have to argue with every other freakin' person why I can't or won't cover up...and I am NOT going to be asked to go to the figurative "BACK OF THE BUS" if I don't oblige a ridiculous request. I have as much right to be here as anyone else. This is about discrimination, not free speech.

[Eric J in MN]

95. It's already illegal in Wisconsin to tell someone to cover up

or leave.

This bill is about passerbys.

[HulaChicken]

113. Eric, would you kindly read #82 & the replies?

Thank you kindly. I am appreciative.

[Eric J in MN]

155. If someone said to you,

"Could you breastfeed somewhere else" that would cause you to lose the ability?

[HulaChicken]

157. YES! It does, and it has!

Don't believe me? Ask a lactation expert.

[HulaChicken]

159. THAT is why this thread is so important to me...

..and why I'm so outspoken. If I can get a few more people to be sympathetic to breastfeeding women....then maybe, just maybe, there might be one young breastfeeding mother that might not have to go through what I went through...who could succeed & not go through the depression that I did.
Thank you.

[HulaChicken]

163. And it may cause me to lose the ability every other time after that...

If you were to make it stressful enough for me when I'm in a public environment, then the next time I'm in public, even if you aren't there, I'll be thinking about who else might have a problem, and then, again, I can't get the milk to come. So, that one single incident when a woman is harrassed could LITTERALLY end her breastfeeding relationship with her child.

[Warren DeMontague]

202. Ever fed a little baby?

It's tough enough without worrying about the self-appointed boob police coming and giving you a hard time.

[mondo joe]

243. You mean like a boss telling an employee she is sexy? Is that protected?

[jhain]

89. Wis is a late comer

http://www.lalecheleague.org/LawBills.html

[Rainscents]

107. I breast feed both my kids in 70's and one time, I was at McDonald

I was told to leave. I told them, they had to call the police and I would take this matter all the way to court! Guess what, supervisor left!
I was born and raised in Korea and women breast feeds their babies anywhere and everywhere! ONLY in America people can't handle this shit!

[Eric J in MN]

109. Is there any way to read the text of the bill,

or has the bill not been written yet?

[Fountain79]

116. here's the bill

SB368


Under current law, there are various prohibitions against lewd behavior or sexual gratification in public. Those prohibitions, however, do not apply to a mother's breast-feeding of her child. This bill permits a mother to breast-feed her child in any public or private location where she is otherwise authorized to be and prohibits any person from interfering with the right of a mother to breast-feed her child as provided in the bill. Because no penalty is expressed in the bill for interfering with that right, a person who interferes with that right is subject to a forfeiture not to exceed $200 under the general penalty provision under current law.

For further information see the state and local fiscal estimate, which will be
printed as an appendix to this bill.


Again, what the definition of interfering?

[HulaChicken]

119. Speaking to me negatively interfears!

Refer to post #82 and the replies. People who made me feel unwelcome STOPPED me from breastfeeding....not just in that one instance, but PERMANENTLY! I DRIED UP because of insensitive jerks who think their right to be an a-hole is more important than a LITTLE BABY! There are many, many women who are less vocal than I am, and they will just give up & fail silently.

[Kailassa]

122. Great to have you here, Hula.

Your posts are beautifully written from the heart. If anyone doesn't get your point, it's because they don't want to.

[Texasgal]

121. perfectly explained.

Here's the deal... stop FREAKING over an exposed breast and all of this nonsense will be over.

[HulaChicken]

123. self delete

[Fountain79]

126. You've got to be joking....

That's all I will say about that.

I've made my point. I'll leave this topic alone because people are now resorting to name calling. Have a good night.

[HulaChicken]

128. I really need to help get a bill passed

in my state so other women won't have to go on ridiculous, never-ending argments with people like this guy, all while a baby is innocently trying to nurse, getting freaked out & upset. It's arguments like THIS that are the reason for this bill.

[Kailassa]

131. Stay calm, ;-)

The more important a discussion topic is, the more likely it is to attract republican "sleepers", whose only purpose here is to make us feel divided against ourselves and inhibit discussion.

When a poster seems particularly obtuse or nasty, keep in mind that it might not be someone with honest motives at all, and don't worry too much.

[HulaChicken]

136. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

:grr: :cry: :banghead: :argh:


***DEEP BREATH****

okay, it's all good
:hippie:

[Eric J in MN]

158. Thanks, do you have a link as well?

nt

[Lone_Star_Dem]

139. Good. This is natural and healthy and should not be subject to ridicule

I breast fed my daughter and I was a young mother. I did it in public, private or where ever she needed feeding. She was a premature birth but her doctors always remarked on how healthy she was. She was never sick as a child and grew quickly to be a fat and energetic little girl.

She has also always been extremely well adjusted, so much so that all of her teachers through out school commented on the fact. Just last week she was told (she's a freshman in college now) that she scored the highest on a family support test that they had ever seen at her university. This strong bond we have began way back when she was an infant when I was breast feeding.

[izzybeans]

151. simply awesome nt

[fortyfeetunder]

154. Key to breastfeeding is undeterred confidence.

Anyway, after the first few rocky days (I enliken it to learning how to ride a bicycle), I felt confidence and power when I mastered breastfeeding my child. And bless his heart, my spouse was very supportive.

Armed with that, I had no compunction about going anywhere to nurse. I nursed on planes, trains, boats, stores -- anywhere except a bathroom. And I rarely if ever used a blanket. My baby had a large head and an active body, how could I cover that all up?

I was never harrassed during my nursing experience, not even when my child was walking around. If someone dared give me an eye, I'd look back with a glare that said "don't mess with THIS mother bear"....

Also made nursing clothes. There is a pattern company called Elizabeth Lee (www.elizabethlee.com) that has the most awesome nursing clothes patterns. Check out the website and their nursing clothes contest! Dresses, shirts, and they were easy to make!!! I made shirts and two swimsuits designed especially for nursing. (I will never buy another swimsuit again after making one...) I wore these outfits to work so I could express milk during the day. When I have free time again (ha ha) I might make clothes for nursing moms!

Then I had a network of nursing mom friends, we all worked in the same area. We had an e-mail loop if we ever had problems with nursing, etc. We even had a "pump-in" one day.

Those experiences gave me so much confidence that I carried long after my nursing days were over. I can't tell you why I had this feeling of maternal power. I did have some stressful days but I knew of things I could eat that could help with the milk production.

I nursed my kid...a long time...it was child-led weaning...before the 4th birthday.

I think what the Wisconsin legislature did was long overdue.
Makes me want to lactate again just to get back at the ninnies who think they feel obligated to suppress nursing moms....

[HulaChicken]

156. It's really nice to know

that there are natural-type parents on the left. I live in an OBSCENELY conservative town. Seems like natural parenting and conservativism go hand-in hand. If I venture outside of the town into a more liberal area, the natural parenting level goes down. I've been starting to feel like if I wanted to find like-minded parent-friends, I could only hang out with the right-wingers. so NICE to see some nuturing parents on DU. Makes me feel a lot better.
:bounce:

[moc]

238. Another left-leaning breastfeeding mom here! :-)

That's funny that you think it goes the other way (i.e., "natural" parenting and conservative politics). My experience has been completely the opposite.

FWIW, I breastfed both of my children exclusively. I also work full time and never had to supplement. It's something I've very proud of. :bounce:

[Kailassa]

160. Confidence can be a pipe-dream ...

to a shy teenage mother with no wedding-ring, who is just trying to look after her new baby. (Speaking from experience.)

[fortyfeetunder]

190. You are right

I also mentioned that I had several other factors going for me. Support from family and friends is one crucial factor to maintaining a nursing relationship. What help did you seek from friends, family or the medical profession when you had your baby? I hope you didn't have to go it alone.

[Kailassa]

206. Stubbornness can count for a lot too. ;-)

My family had told me to have an abortion or they didn't want to see me again. Police had hassled me to the extent that I was afraid for my life because I had dobbed in a drug pusher who was apparently dear to them, so I moved to another state where I knew no-one. And the medical profession at that time were not at all in favour of breast feeding. And I had Aspergers Syndrome, making it very difficult to get to know people.

Back in those days things were very different. Single mothers were almost unheard of in Australia because the girl was put under intese pressure to: "do what is best for the child," and give it up for adoption. I refused, was awake when my big, healthy baby was born, but was told four hours later she had been stillborn, and to forget about her.

I found that hard to believe, because I had been unable to bear being parted from my baby, and had already traipsed through the hospital, found a nurse nervously giving her her first bath, and taken over. I'd smuggled her back to my room to feed her, and she was in my bed under the sheet while I was being told she was dead.

The furious matron could hardly deny my proof that my baby must have miraculouly come back to life, so the staff contented themselves with trying to humiliate me for the next few days.

To survive the first year I turned my little flat into a creche, and was soon breast-feeding three babies instead of one, as their mothers expected me to provide formula and I had no money for it.

[HulaChicken]

219. You are my HERO!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Kailassa]

255. We are all heroes underneath.

[lakemonster11]

229. They told you your baby was stillborn?

That's sick!

[Kailassa]

246. It was not uncommon in those days.

The hospital staff genuinly believed they were doing the right thing. There was no government allowance for single parents, and far more "good" families wanting to adopt than there were babies available. The hospital wanted the best outcome for the baby and believed that meant adoption. I believed that they were right and that I was being wicked and selfish to keep my baby, but I just couldn't let her go.

It's something people who were adopted need to know, the intense pressure that single mothers were put under in those days. (1974) I was in a ward of 12 other unmarried girls and was the only one who kept my baby. The others were all either "stillborn" or adopted out. When Danielle was brought to me for feeds the other girls would cry their hearts out, sitting there with their chests bound and painful with undrunk milk. No-one wanted to give up their babies, and I saw these girls as heros for managing to put their babies' interests ahead of their own.

Something we need to remember when it comes to the fight for abortion rights is that part of the anti-bortion movement is driven be women wanting to adopt, who see the babies of girls who can't care for them as a resevoir from which they should be able to choose their own.

[Warren DeMontague]

166. GOOD. People need to get the FUCK OVER it. The primary function of

the human breast is to feed the human baby, any other, secondary function, fetish, titillation ('scuse the pun) or up-fucking-tightness you may have around that particular gland is your. own. damn. problem.

Here in California it is the law that women have to be allowed to breastfeed, I'm not sure exactly how it mirrors the Wis. legislation.

Some people still don't get it, but attitudes are changing!

[Cats Against Frist]

179. Dammit!!

Way back at post #5, I was weighing my first opportunity to use the popcorn icon, decided against it, and now look: I've fucking blown it.

[mzmolly]

188. Glad to see the positive response here. This is a step in the right

direction.

:toast:

[YOY]

205. Any fine that effects prudish fudies is good by me. n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

207. It's kind of ironic

They don't call us mammals for nothing! I say let 'em fly!

[Beausoir]

211. Whatever happened to plain old common sense?

I have NEVER seen a woman breastfeed in public in a way that would cause anyone any distress.

Sure...there are a few fringers who like to flash their floppers outside ABC studios in New York, but those are by FAR the exception to the rule.

Most sane women who choose to breastfeed their children do so with dignity..for the sole purpose of nourishing their child.

What's the big deal?

[Kailassa]

212. I'm still wondering why it was ever called that. n/t

[AllyCat]

226. Fred Risser--my rep!! What a guy!

Now planning for our first child, it never occurred to either my husband or I that our baby would be anything other than breast-fed. Now that I am reading information about breast-feeding, I've been made aware of the huge hassle women get when they feed their babies in public. Public places like to relegate them to a bathroom or in the car. It's ridiculous. One woman I worked with walked up to a woman breast-feeding in the lobby and asked her to be more discreet about feeding her baby (another patron complained). Freaks.

What on earth is wrong with feeding a baby? NOT feeding them is the shame. The whole idea of scheduling feedings is absurd. The milk changes day to day and hour to hour. The baby eats when he or she needs to eat.
The most appropriate food for a baby is what is there naturally: human milk.

Thanks Mr. Risser! I will be sure to call your office to let you know this is great legislation (should be unnecessary, but great). Good luck getting it through our Fundie/Repuke Assembly.

[Mutley]

239. Why do they even need this law?

You know, I don't enjoy seeing a beast-feeding mother, but you know what I do about that? I DON'T LOOK!! Why do some people find it necessary to jump all over some poor mother who just needs to feed her baby? It's a sad day when a law like this needs to be passed.

[Kailassa]

258. Mutley I agree.

Watching a beast-feeding mother is a nerve-wracking experience, considering the teeth some beasts can have. :evilgrin:

[Mutley]

262. LMAO!!!

:spray:

I just find it kinda gross. Of course, I'm not a mother, and I'll probably change my mind about this when I become a mother one day. But no one needs to harass a mother who is breastfeeding her child. If you don't like it, look somewhere else.

[electron_blue]

240. Yahoo! and about those "do it discreetly" comments

it is totally possible to do it discreetly, which is how I did it for several years.

But I also totally support a woman's right to feed "undiscreetly" (is that a word?) as well.

Feed the baby the best food possible. People really need to get over this hangup.

[Bridget Burke]

248. Matters of "taste" should not be matters of "law"

I believe that hiphuggers & midriff-baring shirts should NOT be worn by those who wear size XXX. (Size XXX ladies can find much more flattering outfits.) But I won't berate someone on the street because I think she looks tacky.

It's more likely that I'd be offended by a screaming, hungry kid than by one being breastfed. However it's done.

[Kailassa]

257. Are you agreeing ...

or disagreeing with the bill being passed?

(It is explained in post 116)

[Bridget Burke]

259. Yes, I agree.

It appears that the bill will prevent businesses from kicking out breasfeeding women. I'm fine with that.

My statement on "taste" were aimed at those who thought breastfeeding was OK as long as it's tasteful. It's OK even if it's not tasteful.

[WeRQ4U]

261. North Dakota filed to pass a law exempting this from public indecendy...

So it's still, technically, a crime to breast feed in public. Amazing. Simply amazing.

[sepia_steel]

267. My wee one is getting a boob

behind my 'nursing shawl', wherever I am or whatever I am doing. My baby comes first. Any prudes around can just shove it.

[Kailassa]

268. A question. Why ...

does seeing a breast-feeding mother make some people so uncomfortable?

I suspect it's because our society idealizes a mother caring for her baby as the ultimate expression of purity, but regards women who show their breasts as dirty sluts. So seeing the two combined into one could be too confusing for some people to handle.