So what do you all think of the term "Civil Libertarian"

[noahmijo]

the more I think about it I think technically I fall into the category of Civil Libertarian as opposed to liberal.

I am by no means ashamed to call myself liberal or left leaning, but I think the term Civil Libertarian fits me and probably most of us on here the most as far as what term really emcompasses our overall belief system.

Now lemme say this I hate labels and I am sure most people who respond to this thread might say "screw labels I'm an American and that's that" or "I find good theories from all sorts of 'labels' that I understand entirely, I'm just putting this out to sort of gauge the general response to the term civil libertarian.

For those who might not know this the ACLU is the largest and only "official" Civil Libertarian group in America.

This is also not to confuse people with the notion that Libertarians and Civil Libertarians are the same, because they are far from it.

Heh I almost made my socialist leaning buddy jump out of his seat when I told him I think I consider myself a civil libertarian above all other labels, and he didn't understand that the two are not the same so after some explanation we found alot more common ground than we knew we had.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. Libertarians are Civil Libertarians first and foremost

[noahmijo]

2. I've yet to meet a Libertarian that doesn't rag on the ACLU

in fact they seem to hate the ACLU more than most neo-cons I've met or just as much at least.

Socially I see very little difference between the two I think it's when you get into economics that they are split.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. I don't rag on the ACLU. I think they are great.

[noahmijo]

15. Spoken as a Libertarian or Civil Libertarian?

or somewhere in the midde perhaps.....?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

18. Spoken as one who considers himself both.

[izzie]

3. Don't libertarians want all rules out?

More or less any thing goes in any thing. I think a society like ours must have some rules

[noahmijo]

4. ::ahem::

This is also not to confuse people with the notion that Libertarians and Civil Libertarians are the same, because they are far from it.

Libertarians advocate limited to no government.

Civil Libertarians advocate obeying the Constitution and abiding by the Constitution i.e. whether you worship Christ or Goats that is your right and the government will not stop you from doing so.

Civil Libertarians biggest fights as of late have been against the shrub white house and their refusal to recognize the seperation between church and state.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. No. It is NOT true that Libertarians want all rules out.

You are thinking of anarchists.

[BiggJawn]

5. First thought?

"Civil Libertarian? I've met more UNcivil Libertarians..."

[noahmijo]

8. You're confusing Libertarian Party members with CL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_libertarian

[BiggJawn]

21. Hey, you asked about "Big Ell" Libertarians.

NOT "Little Ell" libertarians.

You asked what I thought of the term, and I told you.

[whalerider55]

6. not for nothing, but...

all of the CL's I've met feel very strongly about a free and unfettered market place... it always ends up being the altar the prostrate themselves at, crawling through the swamp of least government regulation possible before they get there.

so. i always ask them the same question.
free market, no regulation.
"What if a company, as a part of its unfettered right to produce, pours tons of pcbs into the environment?"

"Easy," they say. "The market will force them to correct their beahviour."

"Uh huh," I say. "But what if before the market corrects them, they kill every living thing within fifty miles?"

so this is how I figure it. Any political philosophy/ideology that can't realistically account for how human beings will be affected, let alone survive 50 years out if its policies are carried to their logical ends doesn't deserve to be part of reasoned discourse. it is inadequate. it is silly. it is a dead parrot.

i've laid this argument on over a dozen self-professed CL's over the last five years. they always sputter, but then they admit that a little regualtion needs to happen. they gingerly place their butts on the slippery slope of regulation.

sheesh. sorry if you think CL is best bundle out there to tie your donkey to.

you might want to keep exploring.

whalerider

[noahmijo]

7. Okay so far EVERYONE is confusing Libertarians with Civil Libertarians

Civil libertarians DO NOT BELIEVE IN FREE MARKETS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_libertarian

Jesus I thought my comment that the ACLU is the largest Civil Libertarian organization would be enough to strike down the notion that they are the same as the Libertarian Party would be enough but I guess not.....


ah fuhget I asked.

[Tace]

9. He He -- I Think It's A Thankless Task

I posted something very similar a few years ago. I've found that many people on this board don't really understand these political designations. They hear "Libertarian," and they get their hackels up.

I've seen conversations about big "L" libertarian... meaning members of the Libertarian Party... and little "l" libertarian... meaning left-leaning libertarian, which sounds like what you're describing.

I've come to see myself as a left-leaning libertarian, social libertarian, or libertarian socialist. Those online tests put me in the company of the Dali-Lama, Gandhi, Christ and Noam Chomsky. I guess I'm OK with that. : )

[noahmijo]

11. Thank God a voice of reason!

Yea economically I believe and every Civil Libertarian I've met believes in strict regulations at worst "enlightened Capitalism" if you will...in other words we don't believe that the government should be running retail shops but at the same time we despise sweat shops and corporate cronyism and believe appropriate laws should be laid down on such criminals.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

16. "free markets" are outside of the purview of Civil Libertarians

Civil Libertarianism, as such, is agnotic about Free Markets. Individuals who are civil libertarians are likely to have opinions on the issue, but the issue of civil rights is basicly separate from the societal aggregations that comprise free markets.

[noahmijo]

17. Right Again! c'mon man lemme see a hat trick here!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

19. ?

[noahmijo]

20. erm you're two for two, a hat trick is hockey slang for three in a row

:)

[whalerider55]

24. y'know what...

you're right. I jumped on the libertarian and didn't read the civil part.

not that I haven't had a few disagreements with the ACLU.

but it's a slippery slope, I agree. If you cna't back the free speech rights of others who are expressing repellent points of view, then you put your own rights at risk... when the times comes that your own POV is considered repellent by some.

thanks for pointing out what shoulda been more obvious to me.

as my father would've said,

duh.

whalerider

[ComerPerro]

22. That's bullshit anyway. "The market will correct them"

Uh huh. Sure.

Just like the free market stops things like outsourcing and retail sales of sweatshop-manufactured goods.

Bullshit.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

10. Libertarians are Civil Libertarians. L is superset of CL. CL subset of L.

Libertarians believe in human rights and civil rights.

Libertarians believe that government should be reduced and that one of the core functions of government is to guarantee civil rights.

Libertarians believe in great personal liberty. Libertarians are strongly opposed to authoritarians. The ACLU is strongly opposed to authoritarians.

Civil Libertarianism is a smaller cluster of concepts than Libertarianism. Civil Libertarianism does not get into economics, whereas the political philosophy of Libertarianism necessarily includes economics.

[noahmijo]

13. Good now spread that around please

Yay! another voice of reason!

[lildreamer316]

23. noahmijo: I think you need to

Post a definitive explination of what a libertarian is and then one of a Civil Lib. IN separate threads. THEN attack this question again.
Education
Education.

Trust me...I am having the same problem in a way.
(oh my god you mean all strippers aren't dumb sluts? who knew?)