How much longer before cheap labor will say enough is enough?

[B Calm]

All across this nation labor has been taking a beating. How the cons have successfully convinced many working people that unions are bad is beyond me! Why don’t working people understand when labor sticks together, wages go up?

[Ron Green]

1. Slavery is the natural state of humans.

Labor, and other shining but brief movements, are noble but doomed, because there are always other people to enslave, and new ways to enslave them.

[oneighty]

2. A mystery

People brainwashed into hating unions. I cannot help but think they are ignorant.

180

[politicaholic]

3. It was that crook/traitor Ronald Reagan...

He convinced everyone that the only way to promote growth is to destroy unions. All he did was destroy families and communities.

Just like GWB, he rolled up his sleeves like he'd actually done an honest day's work in his life, and act as if he were blue collar when in reality they are/were both lazy over-puffed fucks.

[B Calm]

5. Republicans have a long sorry history of opposing labor!

Conservatives have a long and sorry history of opposing virtually every advancement in this country's development going right back to the American revolution.

[AndyTiedye]

4. How Do Unions Protect Workers Against Offshoring?

I can think of a few ways that they could, but that
would require a lot more cooperation between unions of different
trades than we have ever had to date.

[me b zola]

20. Actually, the threat of off shoring was used to bust labor

Unions have conceded that because of the threat of off shoring they had to make concession after concession as a way to appease management. In the end, though, those jobs left and the workers were left looking for other work.

Mr. zola has a union job that cannot be outsourced. But the union does not expect the next contract to be picked up. In about a years time we expect that Mr.zola's income, if he were to stay, will be cut in half. :grr:

[Silverhair]

6. Not as long as there is somebody else waiting to do the same job cheaper.

That has always been the problem, with anything. A worker sells his labor for what he can get for it. A baker sells his bread for what the market will bear, and he has to be aware of the price the other bakers are charging for the same type bread.

Not a new problem.

[wuushew]

7. That is why high tariffs are good

A complete role reversal from the 19th century when the interests of farmers(the many) outweighed the plutocratic factory owners(the few)who feared foreign textiles and such.

If the Democratic party is truly populist it will close the borders and embrace protectionism. All goods and services produced in this economy must be subject to a thorough cost benefit analysis. That is why steel and sugar barriers must come down and others on manufactured goods must stay.

[Silverhair]

9. Protectionism never works.

First, all it does is ignite trade wars. The other countries would throw up high tarrifs against American goods. The Smoot-Hawley act was one of the major causes of the Great Depression, and of WWII.

If protectionism is so great, then perhaps we should seal off the country and don't trade with ANYBODY. North Korea is doing that and it has been a horrible disaster.

Also, protectionism has a false premise. It assume that because I bought a radio controled digital watch for $35.00, then if the foriegn imports are stopped that I will pay $75.00 for one. But the truth is that I would instead do without a radio controled digital watch.

There is still a place for unions, but they have to come into the 21st century. However, I don't have any specific ideas on how to do that as I am not in the labor pool anymore. I make my money by playing poker, and there will never be a union for that.

[LincolnMcGrath]

13. Nearly all the books I own say the opposite caused the Big D

:shrug:

[wuushew]

15. How is the outsourcing of Amerika good?

jobs close, dollars flow overseas, but in return what is the rest of the world buying from us? Everything of quality can be found elsewhere in the world due to the decline of American science and engineering ability.

We don't really get any advantage price wise because currency values equalize when the rest of the world buys our government debt. How many jobs are created by the Bush expansion of debt? The rich in this country are making a quick buck by cannibalizing the very public that once bought their wares. The middle class in an inherently unstable and difficult to maintain creation. History has shown that extreme wealth concentration is the natural order of most economic systems. Outsourcing is accelerating this trend.

I have no desire to democratize the rest of the world through trade. China seeks to emulate our style of living which includes massive per capita energy consumption. They will burn that coal, release massive amounts of CO2 and increase the negative environmental damage pioneered by the west. Its a long gamble that even we can transition to a sustainable economic future even without competition from the developing world for limited resources. Its not a win win situation

Free trade is nothing of the sort and stopping its spread to the rest of the world will improve both domestic and international well-being.

[Silverhair]

18. It is unavoidable.

After WWII, America (Notice that I spell it correctly. I don't hate this country.)was the only industrialized country in the world. The war had destroyed, or badly damaged the industry of all the others, except England.

That allowed American workers to enjoy a long period free of competition, and they got used to it as if it were a right. Those days are now gone, never to return.

We have no choice but to compete in a global market. That is the reality of the 21 century. Wishing it were different is useless.

[Elwood P Dowd]

16. NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and CAFTA are all protectionism

for the people who wrote the agreements - multi-national corporations. These agreements have thousands of pages of rules, regulations, exclusions, quotas, and other protections for a select few. It's all a damn scam under the name of "Free Trade". David Ricardo is rolling over in his grave.

[Silverhair]

17. True. They aren't genuine free trade. NT

[adwon]

26. Protectionism and the Depression

Tariffs didn't cause the Depression. The most likely cause was an overly high savings rate combined with excess capacity on the supply side. Smoot-Hawley was enacted in 1930 as a response to the onset of the Depression. It didn't help the cause much at all, but, at that point, Europe was fairly incapable of sustaining the necessary consumption in order to meet the capacity of American industry (which is why the Marshall Plan was necessary in 1947 to avoid a repeat of the same).

Complete protection is a fallacy, I'll concede that. However, there is little reason to have low trade barriers against countries with average wages in the low fractions when compared to the US. The first duty of government is not to secure cheap imports but to ensure its citizens have the opportunity to secure their own futures, free of the complications of those seeking a cheaper widget. Tariffs aimed at the countries where most of the imports are made will result in higher prices for US consumers, true. However, it's not as though those countries are capable of effective retaliation. After all, the only weapon they possess is low cost labor.

As for trade wars...unlikely. America is the buyer of last resort, as the world well knows. A wall of tariffs would hurt the rest of world far worse than us. The real problem is that we've locked ourselves into this suicide pact where the problems of one big enough player become the problems of all.

[Jose Diablo]

31. Thats what my high school history teacher said

"Protectionism never works."

Strange that this republican horseshit meme has survived so long.

Practically everything my history teacher taught has turned out wrong. I wonder who it is exactly that contructs the teaching sylabus.

[pagandem4justice]

8. Jealousy

I'm definitely with you on this one. Even my husband constantly gets on my nerves with his carping about unions and "high school dropouts making $25 an hour to drive a UPS truck." OTOH, I'm from an old Ohio steel town that was destroyed when the plants all moved abroad in the late 1970s, and I understand the importance that organized labor played in our area's history, my people's history (Italian-American steelworkers), and our country's history. People fought and died for the right to organize, and today's working class and middle class have been brainwashed to hate unions out of the stream of bitter jealousy fed to them by the RW.

Am I saying that there are no problems in labor? No, of course not, but in my experience there are problems everywhere. Labor's problems have been magnified and blown out of proportion by anti-union activists who would have us believe that (a) labor's days of usefulness are over, (b) unions are Mafia organizations who extort dues out of members for nothing in return, and (c) all union workers are uneducated sods who make more money than your typical college-degreed manager or lower-tier professional.

Jealousy breeds contempt.

:banghead:

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. Oh my! So sorry for you in that respect! I am from a solid Union family.

I am a Union baby. My dad, before he retired, was a Union organizer and a Union arbitrator. I walked many a picket line as a youth. I lived and breathed Unions. Unions are the life blood of Labor and if it weren't for Unions, Americans would be worse off than they currently are. I so agree :banghead:

[Leeny]

11. You're right

People forget their history. They don't remember why workers organized in the first place. They don't remember the company store. We need to start talking about that stuff again. Maybe tell them to watch movies like "Matewan" and "Norma Rae". Don't mean to sound simple, but whatever it takes to remind folks that they need to organize against the big boss.

:think:

[SammyWinstonJack]

12. Yes indeed, "I owe my soul to the company store' was a very unpleasant

reality in this Nation's history until Unions fought to bring Americans workers out of corporate slavery! I know, my dad taught me well, and I am grateful for that. Oh and Norma Rae is a great Union story, I love that movie. Hollywood often times gets it right! :evilgrin: Perhaps that is why the rightwing nutjobs hate Hollywood? heh!

[Leeny]

28. Check out a movie called Matewan

It's a true story about the coal miners organizing in the early 1900s. Great movie. It came out in the mid-80s I think.

[Ikonoklast]

21. Tell your dumb-ass husband

that if he could find ONE high school dropout driving a UPS truck, I'll eat his shorts. Tell him to try to get one of those jobs being uneducated. Easy, it sure ain't.
I worked for Buster Brown driving one of those trucks in '99 as a summer casual trying to catch on as a full timer, but they went on strike that fall and I had to get something full-time asap.
I drove tractor-trailers, double sets, and every person in the feeder office, and I mean EVERY person, man and woman, dispatcher, secretary, computer operator, supervisor, whatever, had a valid CDL with a doubles endorsement because at any time they could be called upon to put on that brown uniform and go out into the yard, hook up a set, and get down the road. They realize that they are in the package delivery business, and if they can't do that, someone else will.
The supervisor that went along with me to get FAA ramp certified for airfreight p/d had a degree in accounting and was working towards his MBA. He made a hell of a lot more than $25 bucks an hour. And yes, he drove a truck as part of his job.
OBTW, ask Hubby instead of bitching to you about how much money they make, have him to go tell that nice UPS Teamster to his face that he is an ignorant, over-paid dropout.
I'll even buy the popcorn.

[NoBushSpokenHere]

14. It will end when the corporations who have moved out of the

US of Halliburton have been unionized. It will happen, but not soon enough to prevent widespread starvation within our borders.

[Daftly]

19. Not in my lifetime and I'm about 30

Their are 2 reasons I can think of quickly.

1. Too many people who do not belong to unions fear that driving up the price of labor will mean that the goods they purchase will cost more.

2. Those who could unionize but choose not to are afraid that the company will simply close their state side operations and move out of the country. A low paying job is better than no job.

[newyawker99]

30. Hi Daftly!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[LaPera]

22. People still want to believe that management will actually look after

their best interest, with fair wages, health insurance and retirerment...

Not a fucking chance! Corporate management is always just looking at profits, and how much they can make if they hire cheaper labor, get rid of workers benefits and down the line, steal the workers pension & retirement funds through bankruptcy...

Workers in this country have to unite or we are going to be crushed and be nothing more than slaves to these same corporations and multi-nationals, who pay little or no taxes, but steal our tax dollars in corporate welfare (subsidies)!

[B Calm]

23. It's all about how damn cheap they can hire labor. They want us

to be desperate and in need. This is the reason they would like to do away with the social security safety net.

[ObaMania]

24. Probably won't since most of them are Hispanic..

.. and working illegally for the most part. They will keep a low profile and keep making their low hourly wages.

[B Calm]

25. One of the companies I deliver to in Veedersburg, Indiana is full of

Hispanic's. I'll bet the majority of them are illegal. We need a government that will enforce laws already on the books!

[Bridget Burke]

29. Don't assume that most "Hispanics" are illegal.

Here in Houston, there are plenty of signs in Spanish offering Help with Income Taxes. Many folks from the more cornfed, landlocked, lily white parts of the USA tend to assume a lot about people who don't look like them.

As for the undocumented workers--organize them! There's a long history of Organized Labor in Mexico (against great odds) & among Mexican-Americans. Many of the "illegals" are people of pride. Keeping them hidden & afraid guarantees they will not ask for more.

[adwon]

27. Repeal Taft-Hartley

Take the role of government from neutral (at best) in terms of organizing back to its favorable position in the late 30s/early 40s. Just my opinion, but making secondary strikes legal again would likely make quite a change.

[Silverhair]

32. Strikes aren't that effective anymore.

How long has it been since a major strike has made headlines? In the 50's and 60's strikes were always in the headlines. Now unions are afraid to strike. A strike could mean the loss of all the jobs as the place shuts down and the jobs go somewhere else.

[B Calm]

33. We are at the point where corporations can't threaten us

with closing the doors and moving to operations to somewhere like Mexico. They'll do it where there is a union or not a union.