A response to torture apologists

[Kelvin Mace]

I was just listening to a debate on the radio over John McCain's anti-torture amendment. The amendment passed the senate 90-9 and Precious Leader has threatened to veto a spending bill rather than be explicitly prohibited from torturing prisoners.

The fellow defending torture refused to classify that what was being outlawed was, in fact, torture. He kept insisting that something other than simple interrogation had to be allowed when questioning "terrorists". He trotted out the usual justification for torture, "the ticking bomb" scenario. This scenario involves capturing a terrorist who knows about a bomb that will go off at some date in the VERY immediate future, but won't divulge the location. Since "innocent lives" are in immediate peril, only torture will extract the information neede for the good guys to win.

Could we examine this realistically please?

I am NOT a person who enjoys pain. I dislike pain and will go to great lengths to avoid suffering if I can manage it. If I am captured by people who I consider the enemy, people who are (to me) evil incarnate and they immediately begin applying a branding iron to my testicles in order to encourage me to divulge the location of a bomb that will kill lots of people just like the folks putting a branding iron on my testicles, I WILL DIE BEFORE I TELL THEM A SINGLE THING!

Every bit of agony they inflict on me re-enforces my belief that these people are evil and the more of them that die, the better off the world will be. Each second that passes that I say nothing, puts me one second closer to knowing that my tormentor's ranks will soon be reduced.

Any government which embraces torture for ANY reason has forfeited all moral authority. They are no better than the people they call "terrorists".

McCain, during one of the few moments he wasn't busy hugging a war criminal, made the most eloquent argument about why torture is NEVER right and must NEVER be permitted:

We are Americans, and we hold ourselves to humane standards of treatment of people no matter how evil or terrible they may be. To do otherwise undermines our security, but it also undermines our greatness as a nation. We are not simply any other country. We stand for something more in the world – a moral mission, one of freedom and democracy and human rights at home and abroad. We are better than these terrorists, and we will we win. The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don’t deserve our sympathy. But this isn’t about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies.

"But what about protecting the innocent from terrorists?" you wail. "If we don't use torture to get information on future terrorist attacks, many innocent people will die."

As folks like you are fond of reminding me every other minute, "Freedom isn't free."

If we expect our soldiers to be willing to die to protect truth, justice and the American way, is it too much to expect us to die in order to prove that we actually believe in truth, justice and the American way?

And for those of you fond of wearing "What would Jesus do?" wristbands, I believe that Jesus FORGAVE those who persecuted and murdered him. By doing so, he showed that he was prepared to die for what he preached. By dying for what he believed in, he proved what he believed in.

The only thing more evil than torture, is making excuses to justify torture.

http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/s9/index.php?/archives/50-Torture-Apologists.html

[Jed Dilligan]

1. It's a well-known fact

that torture leads to bad information or none. People either clam up out of pure spite or else they make shit up to stop the pain.

Rumsfeld (I'm assuming) ordered the torture because the Repug base was demanding it shrilly at the time.

[Bridget Burke]

2. They should all be strung up by their thumbs!

Sorry for my frivolous response to the heartfelt posting. I agree with you 100%.

I'm sure some Junior G-Men will show up with scenarios they filched from TV shows or suspense novels. There's NEVER an excuse for Torture.

It's appalling that this discussion is even necessary.

[Kelvin Mace]

4. A theory of mine

is taht the major difference between liberals and conservatives comes down to empathy. If you can empathize about a fellow human's plight, then you can understand how they come to the think the way they do, no matter how repulsive the way of thinking. Once you understand why a person thinks the way they do, you have a chance of changing their view, or perhaps altering your own.

[unpossibles]

9. I agree

My Libertarian Rightwing dad visited me last week and we went for a walk in my neighborhood, which...uh... has potential we'll say. Anyway, we were walking through a section which is not that good, but not really as bad as some, and he asked if we could walk somewhere more "pleasant."

I told him that there was no such thing; that my neighborhood is in such bad shape partially because of the corporate piracy he seems so in love with, jobs going overseas, etc.

Kind of pissed him off a little, but I think he is a good person at heart and needed to be shaken up a bit (although it was not my original intention - if anything I was trying to avoid the rally round parts, ironically) and see the results of his belief system.

He is not very empathetic at all, and is kind of selfish, but when forced to see things that are normally not seen, he can be pretty smart about it. He's actually getting better - he used to be a Hardcore Republican and now he's slightly more center...

[LiberalVoice]

3. Sorry but...

...if someone applied a branding iron to my testicles im singin' like a hummingbird.

[Kelvin Mace]

5. Depends doesn't it?

Would you betray your family, friends and all you believe in?

Change the scenario. You are working with the French underground and know about a bomb that will destroy a railroad bridge just as Hitler's henchmen are crossing it.

Will you sing?

[LiberalVoice]

12. I get it now.

That whole branding iron, testicle thing really got me though. :P

[Kelvin Mace]

13. Hey, I winced writing it.

:)

Some things are not worth suffering or dying for. Demand I "remounce my religion" and it would be "Jesus who?" Ask me to sell out my family and friends and it will take more than a branding iron.

[sproutster]

23. Would you be speaking the truth?

You say Jesus who, but you know who he is. Are you really renouncing him or are you stopping the pain?

Have you guys lost your minds?

[Kelvin Mace]

33. That was the point

I will sell out something that is trivial to stop the pain. Something worthwhile will take a lot more effort. In the case of the "ticking bomb scenario", time is my friend.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Why sure you would admit to being involved in the 9/11 plot wouldn't you?

Probably even say you were the 20th hijacker? Now tell us what that would accomplish?

Don

[sproutster]

21. And just what song would you sing?

Especially if you didn't know the words?

Torture does not work, and we have data to back that up. Wiki Salem Witches.

[seabeyond]

6. as log as ALL supporters don't get offended when our people

are tortured. we no longer have the right to be offended when our soldiers are captured and subsequently tortured or executed or beheaded

[Kelvin Mace]

10. Come on now

you are REALLY asking a lot of serial hypocrites.

[Bob3]

7. the ticking bomb is a straw man

How many times would something like that actually happen? Once twice - how about never? This is the real world , not television so the chances of such a scenario coming up are remote at best.

But say that it did happen that you are confronted with the ticking bomb and that a prisoner knows something that will be able to stop it. What would a human being do? He'd probably try and force the answer out of him. I would suggest that it's human nature. Hell I think if I was in that situation I'd try and force the prisoner to talk - but this is the important point that the apologists forget - regardless of the later consequences to myself - if I have to stand trial so be it, I'll explain my reasons then. What the apologists want something that would be done in the heat of a crisis to be made into a cold blooded standard procedure.

Torture, as it has been used by the united states has not been intended to stop enemy plots -- hell the capture of a plotter is enough to derail plots. If a member of my cell is captured I would assume sooner or later he was going to talk, probably sooner and I'd change plans accordingly.

No torture has not be used by Americans to get information, it has been used, as Saddam used it, as all tyrants use it, to humiliate, to intimidate, to demonstrate their power, and to get the victim to say what we want him to say in the first place.

Tyrant - never thought I say that word in connection with America.

Sorry to rant.

edited to try and make my point a little clearer.

[Kelvin Mace]

11. Excellent points

If you don't object, I'll incorporate that point into my essay.

[Bob3]

29. not a problem go right ahead

it's something I've been thinking about for a while.

[Kelvin Mace]

32. Thank you

It allowed me to drive home the point better.

[Bob3]

34. you're welcome

by the way love you avatar - always a big fan of the Doctor esp Tom Baker.

[Kelvin Mace]

35. I am using all his incarnations

on Thoughtcrimes, which breaks up the bordome of multiple posts.

[AngryAmish]

14. The vast majority of people break under torture

The folks that I have known that have undergone evasion and escape training in the military all have broken while undergoing training for torture. These are smart, brave men.

Whenever a torture thread comes up I recommend everyone read the book "Bravo Two Zero" by Andy McNab. Mr. McNab was part of a British SAS patrol that caused quite a fuss in the first Gulf War and was the subject of the book. Anyway, he eventually was captured and was tortured in good ole Abu Grahib prison. He broke and he was one of the best soldiers in the world.

the statistics show that there is a small percentage of people who will not break. But given enough sleep deprivation and physical pain almost everyone will break notwithstanding ideological commitment.

All of this ignors the moral aspect of this. Of course torture should be banned. But as a pure utilitarian argument, torture works.

[Kelvin Mace]

15. Torture works, eventually...

The argument used to justify it by the neocons is the "ticking bomb scenario.

"We really would NEVER use torture normally, but circumstances FORCED us to."

Must fanatical types (especially the kind who plant bombs) are going to hold out until the matter is moot.

As to torturing for any other reason... yes, torture works, eventually. And it only costs your humanity.

[sproutster]

19. Torture DOES NOT WORK - or do you believe in witches?

[Kelvin Mace]

28. You miss the point I am making

If you are trying to extract information, you will evetually get information. I made no claims as to the accuracy of the information.

[manic expression]

22. Torture doesn't work

If, by "work", you mean getting people to say anything to stop the pain...then yes. However, this also shatters any notion of justice or decent treatment as well as utterly failing in the process.

[sproutster]

18. Give me a fucking break

So I suppose all those women who were tortured in Salem REALLY WERE WITCHES?

Fuck off... Give me a little pain, I'll give you a really good story. I know nothing, again, I'll give you a good story, I know something, hell I might even provide some pertainent details to help you belive my story, or maybe I'll tell the truth.

How do you know which route I will take? TORTURE HAS PROVEN WRONG RESULTS.

Your response is CRAP.

[AngryAmish]

25. I agree anyone will tell a story to stop the pain

Millions of people who died in the gulag or at Salem prove that. However, if the goal of torture is to get true information, and the torturer seeks true information and has a way of testing the responses, then it will provide the right answers most often.

And again I abhor torture and it should not be done. But all information given under torture is not necessarily false per se.

[Kelvin Mace]

30. Again, the purpose of torture is to get prisoners to talk

and divulge information or incriminate themselves.

It *does* work, you will always get information and incriminating statements. None of it can be beleieved since it was obtained by torture.

[Hubert Flottz]

16. Recommended.

This is the worst crime the Bush gang has committed, by far IMHO. How could John McCain of all people in Washington, support the people who did this? To want to go on doing this, as these greedy MORONS do, proves to me that they were behind everything in those shameful pictures, from the word go. If Bush vetoes that bill, they should impeach him and jail the entire crew. They are proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are NO BETTER than Saddam!

I can't tell you in words, how this, of all the things, that these insane sons of bitches in power have done so far, breaks my heart. To think that my tax dollars will fund more of these crimes against humanity is almost more than I can bear. If Bush vetoes this bill he will become a certified war criminal IMHO.

I'm glad the GOPers in the Senate had the guts to drop this squarely in Bush's lap. They are daring the idiot to veto it. If he does veto it, he's toast around the planet. He will brand himself a world class despot with his own pen.

FDR never needed to do these criminal things after Pearl Harbor. Bush is not a real leader, or he wouldn't think of it either.

No need to wonder anymore why "they" hate us...Hell they're just as good as the people in and around the White House.

I hope there is a vengeful God out there. I hope the Christians that supported Bush go to Hell right along with him, if there is such a place.

"MORALITY" MY ASS! * "MEN OF GOD" MY ASS!

[Kelvin Mace]

17. Thanks for the recommendation

[Hubert Flottz]

26. You're welcome

Check our Cheney and shadowy David S Addington for the link in the chain of command that led down to the hell hole at Abu Ghraib. The GESTAPO would be proud of this sadistic crew lurking around Cheney.

Maybe Dick Cheney is the monster Lon Chaney used to play! Heart trouble and Dick Cheney, is a world class Oxymoron...

[LittleClarkie]

20. Torture doesn't work. The person will say anything

even if they have nothing to say, to get the pain to stop. It's like the old witch trials. You are presumed to have information even when you don't, I would imagine.

[NNN0LHI]

27. I think torture is responsible for most of our phony terra-lerts

The Bush administration is torturing people into making up stories to scare the American people with.

Don

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Nah, I think they just make that shit up.

[DanCa]

24. once upon a time

I couldn't believe that the us would even consider torture. How I long for those days.