Out of curiousity... how many are seeing a black religious ceremony

[CornField]

for the first time while watching the Rosa Park's service?

How many of us have visited 'black' churches in person? My family use to go often when I was young. It was the church my father preferred... and came to be the type of Christian church I preferred as a teen and young adult.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

1. A colleague of mine who attended

a primative baptist church lost her mother a few years ago and I attended the funeral. There was one particular moment..it was a "hymn" but not what I am used to as a hymn..this was ad lib, I guess you would say, and just a chorus of voices in the most wonderful minor keyed harmony and it rose and rose. I had the shivers. I have never been to a more moving ceremony. It truly changed my life. Since then I have been searching for similar music and have learned a lot about African American music particularly as evolved from slavery days. I often play my collection in class.

[CornField]

5. Yes -- the music

We came from a very subdued church. I can vividly remember the first time my father took me to visit a predominantly black congregration. The music filled not only my ears but my heart and my soul. It was amazing just to be there... in that moment... a part of something so much more greater and beautiful than myself. (I really don't know how to describe it.)

I think the mega-churches of today with their huge screens and sound systems understand how much energy, hope and excitement music can add to a religious experience. I think they've missed the mark in trying to re-create the effect of the black congregations. Like you said, it is so unscripted and it comes from such a deep place.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. I am a music snob when it comes to church music

I freak when I see drums up by the altar! And forget sound systems and big screens. Can't stand them. It is pipe organ or I'm outta there!

[madokie]

137. Amazing Grace

sang in the Cherokee language, Most beautiful music you will hear. A piano and a voice singing.

[ohio_liberal]

21. Me too, I went to a very subdued church

I about had a heart attack the first time I heard someone clap hands inside a church. We didn't do that, not ever!

[itzamirakul]

100. Yes, a lot of the huge, white mega-churches have tried to appropriate

the energy of the black church - that is why you will see black singers in their groups even when there are few black members in the church.

And you are right...it does come from a place deep down inside. That is why when white people say "the blues" is universal, a black woman can write a book entitled, "Your blues ain't like mine." African American blues and jazz and gospel music is deeply rooted in slavery and segregation and the attendant torture and cruelty, the pain of which is embedded in the very genes and dna of the people.

Just imagine what it is like to have grown up attending such church services all of your life with the pounding pianos and organs, the trilling tambourines, and the soft symbolism of the spirituals.Voices so beautiful that they sound like instruments....

There is nothing like it anywhere. It is this music that affected Elvis so very much but no matter how much he tried, he could never emulate it.

[BL611]

6. Primitive?

I'm sure that you meant that in a harmless way, but I'm pretty sure you could choose a better word...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Are you teasing me??

Primitive Baptist is the name of a denomination.

http://www.localworship.info/baptist_primitive.htm


There are dozens of them here in Tallahassee.

[Iris]

24. thanks for pointing that out TG

And, don't quote me on this one, but no all Primitive Baptist churches are African American.


And w/my English teacher hat on - this sort of misunderstanding can be avoided by proper use of capital letters!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. I was really suprised to hear of

a white PB church not too long ago. I can't remember where, somewhere in the south, though.

I'm not sure of their hierarchy, whether it is one church or just a loose confederation.

[Iris]

31. I'm from South Georgia and we had a few around. I also lived in MD as a

child and there was at least one in my town there that I knew of.

[Burning Water]

52. Primitive Baptist.

Actually that's the name.

http://www.pb.org/

[TallahasseeGrannie]

58. Thanks! I was afraid my head was about to roll here!

[SoCalDem]

70. When I went to church they still said mass in Latin

and I actually liked it better then..I like the solitude and "non participation" ..

[TallahasseeGrannie]

77. If I were Catholic

I'd have been monumentally pissed off to be taught that the Mass was the same from country to country because it was in Latin, and then Boom! It's in English.

I like Latin.

[Hardrada]

103. I remember Lutheran services in Norwegian

when I was a child and we all learned "Jeg er saa glad paa Julekveld" at Christmas. My parents told me I was angry at one service when I heard it in English. I guess I was a traditonalist at 5 years old!!

[Karenina]

32. Primative?

Having to do with primates? An allusion to primitive? Just asking.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. You have never heard of

a Primative Baptist church, I guess? I was not being racist.

http://www.localworship.info/baptist_primitive.htm

[noiretextatique]

43. thanks for the link

i used to live across the street from a primitive baptist chruch for years in oakland. i went there to vote for years, and wondered what the heck "primitive" meant :shrug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

48. As you can see from the link

there are dozens in this town. It never occurred to me that people would think I was disparaging anyone. LOL Live and Learn!

[Burning Water]

57. I'm beginning

to learn that it is very easy to step on someone's petunias around here. Even if you agree with them. Gotta be careful, not just what you say but how you say it.

[BeTheChange]

123. Welcome to DU, Burning Water..

One of the inequities of digital conversation.

:wave:

[Burning Water]

135. Thanks for the welcome,

I'm happy to be here

[noiretextatique]

76. the one near me is the only one i've seen in my area

so the name always freaked me out a little :D
here's some info about the primitive baptists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Baptist

[Karenina]

62. I am truly relieved!!!

The lack of capitalization sat me down in hopes of a response.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. My apologies for my grammar

which appeared to have freaked a number of people out!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. But you know what is funny?

My second cousin's husband is the Primate of the Anglican Church in Canada. Or he was until he retired last year. His name is Michael Peers.

His family teases him about the primate stuff. Strange term!

[Karenina]

67. Wonder if the origins of the terminology

were a "take back the language" mentality in the founders.

[itzamirakul]

105. The type of spiritual music you describe is the same music that the

plantation owners used to have their slaves come to the big house to sing on warm summer evenings, especially if they had visitors.

Some of the planation owners became so enamored of this music that they set out to gather the lyrics and melodies and learn them and some even toured throughout the south and north, singing these black spirituals.

Also, schools such as the College founded by Mary McLeod Bethune earned money to keep their doors open by having singing groups touring the US and giving concerts with this type of spiritual.

The music that you apparently are not attracted to is called "gospel" in the black church and is the more animated, pounding beat that is often accompanied with percussive instruments.In truth, it is my very favorite. It is the kind of music that often makes the listener want to "shout" with inner joy.

It is nice to know that you appreciate the black spirituals. Many of them have been lost to the American songbook for so long. I am glad that you are sharing them with your classes. It is all an important part of Americana.

[shrike]

108. I went to a black Catholic church

In New Orleans. Was happy to hear it survived Katrina.

I should say it was a predominantly African-American Catholic parish. It also had ties with the local voodoo folk (LOL) since they also venerate (some) Catholic saints. You could see voodoo offerings around the church. (I also met a voodoo priestess who was an ultra cool human being.)

If the church was in my neighborhood I'd attend it regularly. Very friendly, welcoming people: there were other whites at mass, but most of us were tourists. Great little choir sang the whole mass. Really neat experience.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I live in such a waspy state, I am not sure we even have a predominently

black church anywhere nearby.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

49. Just curious, what state?

I'm assuming way, way up north?

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. Maine.. About as way up north as you can get. ;^D We do have

pockets of french catholics and in recent years a lot of Koreans and Ethiopians have moved to some of our cities, so we're not all WASP. But it's pretty close. I know some of my neighbors were a little... uncomfortable.. when a Muslim family moved in next door to us. 9/11 jitters and all that. :(

[TallahasseeGrannie]

59. oooooh Maine

I dream about it in August down here! I have never been there. I've been farther north, up in Canada, but never in Maine.

[GreenPartyVoter]

71. Well, it's actually pretty varied. The north and west look a lot like

Vermont and Pensylvania. The coast from Brunswick south is sandy like Massachussets. The coast from Brunswick north is the rocky downeast of legend.

Funny thing is, I bail on it in August. I went to PEI canada this summer to escape the heatwave we were having down here. ^%#@&%$#!&$% global warming.

Anyway, Atlantic Canada is wonderful and my favorite summer vacation spot. (Quebec and Ontario are fine, but only in spring and fall! *lol*) Next year we're going to Nova Scotia (Cape Breton rules!) and maybe will head back to PEI from there. Someday, I want to get all the way to Newfoundland. :D

[TallahasseeGrannie]

72. I hope to get to PEI someday

I have been a Lucy Maud Montgomery freak since I was 6 years old. Read everything she ever wrote.

[GreenPartyVoter]

79. I was in Cavendish and drove by Lucy's house. Never did get to see any

Anne stuff. :( The kids wanted to do amusement parks and mini golf and the beach and so forth.

Here is the page of our vacation pics from New Brunswick and PEI: http://www.curvynovels.info/vacation2005/vacation2005.htm

And here are pages of where I live now and where I grew up a little ways away:

http://www.castine.me.us/ (That is the school principal in the purple jacket there. They had a School of Rock theme for halloween this year. *lol*)

http://www.deerislemaine.com/ Be sure to click the 4 season tour page.

I have never been to Tallahassee, if that is where you are now. But I have been to Kissimee, albeit a long time ago.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

82. Oh my! I was going to do school work

when I get home but now I'm going to put my feet up and take a virtual tour. Thanks so much for sharing these pictures.

Yes, I still live in Tallahassee. It is farther north than Kissimmee, and cooler. Not as tropical. No citrus.

[GreenPartyVoter]

84. My dad was stationed in Pensacola when I was a bun in the oven. My

mom used to tell me about how cold it was there in the winter. I refused to believe her because I was sure Florida was warm all over. But then we went to Kissimee in February and it was cold and rainy and I had to cry to get them to take me to the beach. (We went to Cocoa Beach just after a squall. The waves were awesome!!! But we quit going into the water after people started talking about jellyfish getting washed up by the storm.)

[Gormy Cuss]

118. You forgot Portland

There's an AME church on Munjoy Hill. It's been there forever. My mother was allowed to choose her own denomination when she was a child and she visited all her friend's churches including the AME.

Of course,that may be the only predominantly black church in the state.
;-)

On edit: and some natives think Portland isn't in Maine anyway!

[GreenPartyVoter]

120. I kinda addressed that in post 53 *G* but remember I said I didn't

think we had any nearby. Portland is 3 hours from here. A bit of a drive for Sunday services. *lol*

But if I ever get a chance to go to church down that way I will be sure to remember the AME one now. :)

[Gormy Cuss]

121. What, 3 hours isn't nearby?

I know it's a little far for you. My note was really for those from away . :hi:

Portland has a good size population of African Muslims now too --Ethiopians, Somalians and maybe Sudanese, I forget. One of my friends works with a refugee resettlement agency there.

[GreenPartyVoter]

124. My fundagelical Repub BIL lived on Munjoy Hill for a brief while and he

hated it. Scared of both the crime and the liberalism. on the first count, He had a point. His cds were all stolen from his car and shortly after he moved out of there a guy was stabbed.

But I do get a real big smile on my face thinking that for a short time he was a constituent of Rep. John Eder (G). :D

[Gormy Cuss]

125. Portland: the way liberal Maine ought to be

The Hill isn't even the worst neighborhood in bad ole Portland.

Munjoy Hill has killer views of Casco Bay from the Eastern Promenade.

[GreenPartyVoter]

126. He told me he never went down to the old port at night because

that's when all the gangs and gays went down there.

I have no ida if that is true, but I have visions of extremely flamboyant young men having it out a la "When you're a Jet, you're a jet all the waaayy!"

[Gormy Cuss]

130. Yep, that's the Old Port all right.

:rofl:

[sinkingfeeling]

3. I attended a 'black' church for a year when I stayed with my

grandmother in southern Ohio while my parents and sister were in Florida.

[Daphne08]

4. I've attended many in my lifetime

[Beaverhausen]

7. I'm white but I've been to a few including a wedding

Joyous, spiritual, fun!!!

I think the if there is a "God" that is how he/she would want people to worship.

[ohio_liberal]

17. Absolutely!

They sure do praise the Lord!

[lukasahero]

8. I helped rebuild an AME Zion church

when I was in high school that had suffered from neglect and economics. I went on to provide the music there for over a year until they could find their own music minister. I was often the only white person in the congregation but I have never felt more at home.

My NE liberal Methodist church youth group helped rebuild this church and also had "field trips" to synagogues and mosques as well as other xtian denominations. The idea was to promote the understanding that we are all related. I consider myself very lucky to have had that kind of upbringing as my background as I would have otherwise lived a very small and sheltered life.

[CornField]

12. What a wonderful thing!

I love the idea of 'field trips' for youth groups. What an excellent way to dispel myths and provide students a real foundation about world religions.

Good job!

[TlalocW]

9. I have

In high school, I was part of the youth group in the local Methodist Church of our small Kansas farming town. Our pastor was a big, lovable dork of a man. Each year, we raised money to go to Kansas City or to go camping in Colorado during the summer. The last time I went to Kansas City, we went to a black Methodist church whose pastor was a good friend of ours. He was dressed more conservatively in church, but later on, we saw him in a neon pink shirt with rhinestones that spelled out, "Sassy," a cane with a gold plated lion's head at the top, and a pimp hat. That was his preferred style of dress.

The ceremony was like none we had ever seen coming from a predominantly white farming town. It was great.

TlalocW

[Chovexani]

10. Being black, I grew up in one

Contrary to popular belief there are black people on DU.

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. Thank you Covexani.

Contrary to popular belief there are also people who don't really think in terms of black church/white church anymore. :hi:

It's great to see you. I was just wondering what you've been up to.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. Interesting subject

"segregation" in churches. I have attended about five or six churches of the Anglican faith while here in Tallahassee and each has perhaps one or two black families, mostly all from Great Britain. There are little churches all over town that are PB (primitve baptist) or AME... sometimes two or three per street and I doubt any of them hold more than 100 people. They are usually block structures painted white and they add so much to the town visually. I think they are virtually all 100% African American.

[Chovexani]

41. Hi!

I'm doing alright, I've just been busy lately between getting ready for National Novel Writing Month and Samhain stuff. This is usually a busy time of year for Pagans.

I think the whole black church/white church dictotomy is a symptom of the deeper ongoing problems in this country. It's often been said Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America, and it's sad. Things are changing, slowly, but hopefully it will get better. I think one of the reasons why the megachurch movement is doing so well is there's a lot of white Christians out there looking for the kind of ecstatic spirituality that you just don't get in mainline white churches.

Megachurches try but they fail because they almost try too hard. It seems soulless to me, all style and no substance. I was raised in the black church, with all the tambourine thumping, people dancing in the aisles, old ladies getting the Spirit and fainting, etc. It's just something that can't be replicated in those 5-star hotels in the 'burbs that pass as churches, and most of those churches frown upon the real "getting in the Spirit" stuff. Now that I look back on it, I think I can pretty much trace the beginnings of my disillusionment with Christianity to when I was about 13 or so and my family stopped going to the Baptist church I was raised in and we went to an evangelical church (which was a megachurch before the term was even coined, though the building they were in at the time was small). It just wasn't the same, even though it was still a mostly black church, with a black pastor, etc. It was just so milquetoast, and they actively discouraged those sorts of ecstatic experiences in favor of strictly "by the Book" teaching, it was more like a college class than a spiritual experience.

Something I find very interesting, I've been to vodoun and Santeria rituals before and the energy is very similar to what I remember as a kid in church. A lot of the ancestral ways are still there in the black church, even though they've been watered down and Christianized. Spirit is everywhere, how you connect to it doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things, it's the connection itself that's important.

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. Being raised a traditional Roman Catholic, I agree with you. There is

a movement within the Catholic Church (it's called charismatic) to take a more hands on, in the moment approach to the mass. I walked out of the Church in October of last year when they asked us to vote against civil unions/gay marriage. You've got your finger on it. While there is still "comfort" (youthful memories of family) in the tradition of the Church, I don't think there was much connection with the Spirit. My children...the look on my husband's face when we are in sync does it for me.

Perhaps, I am lucky that I am raising my kids in a pretty diverse area of the country. When I was 18, my cosmetology teacher (I loved her) took me ( a pregnant, scared, little girl) to church with her one weekend so I could be "moved" she said. It was a beautiful experience in just being. the most affectd I have ever been in a church setting.

[Chovexani]

74. One of the nice things about being in a diverse area

I'm lucky to have been born and raised in NYC, with the exposure to so many different ethnic groups and faith traditions. When I was a kid my school took field trips to lots of different places of worship (it was private school so I guess there was no problem with it). We went to various churches, synagogues, mosques, Buddhist temples, Hindu temples, etc. It was just fascinating to see how different folks worshipped, and even though the customs varied from group to group, it was all coming from the same place of trying to get closer to God however people imagine the concept. It really is a beautiful thing.

I think a lot of the problems we have as a country today would go away if more people had the chance to experience other folks' traditions like that. We have so much more in common than most people realize.

[CornField]

15. I'm sorry -- I meant no offense with my post

It was pure curiousity... and also a need to express the wonderful memories I was experiencing about going to churches with my father. :)

Nothing but love.

[Chovexani]

20. It really bugs the shit out of me

When (white) people here say "we" and "us" when what they really mean is "white folks". It may seem like a small thing, but it really is insulting, and it's little things like that which add up and make a lot of POC DUers feel marginalized sometimes.

No disrespect meant, just trying to raise a little consciousness.

[CornField]

29. I said it because I was interested in all opinions

Not because of a false assumption of the demographics of the board. That goes for all of my posts, 'we' and 'us' are a collective word for all of DU.

All opinions -- the white folks, the black folks, the yellow folks, the mixed race folks.

[TahitiNut]

35. Folks who say "we" and "us" are speaking for themselves ...

... and their tapeworm. :evilgrin:

[Road Scholar]

102. Well,"we" have a Pentecostal Holliness preacher who is a

Democrat, and our small church is inter-racial, and it rocks. How 'bout them apples. And no, I wasn't offended. :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast: :toast:

[Road Scholar]

107. Try improving coping skills nt

[Chovexani]

111. Okay!

I'll practice on you.

[tamtam]

22. Thanks for pointing that out

I really didn't think we needed to point out the fact that black people post on DU.

I'm black, so yes I have seen many black ceremonies.

[TahitiNut]

26. Really? It's like Brazil, huh?

:evilgrin:

(In a way, it's nice to only see people.) :shrug:

[goclark]

38. This African American woman LOVES to be in a Baptist

Church with my people.

My grand mother was Baptist and when ever I am in a Baptist church with gospel music, I hear God more clearly.

[Chovexani]

47. There is something that just moves you, doesn't it?

I'm not a Christian anymore, and I haven't been one in a long time, but I was raised Baptist and I never connected to Spirit in the megachurch my family moved to the way I did in the church I grew up in. The energy is just completely different. There is just something about it that stirs the soul.

[goclark]

56. When you are really down really hurting

a good old Baptist Church can lift you up like you have never been lifted before.

For African Americans, it is our HISTORY, our ancestors drew so much faith and hope from the Church.

So, I can understand if those that are not African American don't sometimes understand the feeling, the joy of the experience.

But if you want to really hear music that will move you, find a small Baptist church in your area and walk right in. You will be accepted and welcomed.

[CornField]

60. Okay, Chovexani, talk to me for a moment

You and I have so much common ground here. We are both Pagans who left the Christian faith. We are both writing with great love about our church experiences when we were younger.

Somehow, however, I managed to offend or make you feel uncomfortable with my original post. Could you please tell me how I could have re-phrased it so that it would not have affected you in that way? I really love these types of discussions -- the similarities, the differences, the good memories, the reasons for life-changes -- so it would be helpful to me if I could begin one which wouldn't immediately be off-putting.

[Chovexani]

86. Let me try to explain

The spirit of your OP wasn't what I had a problem with--I thought it was thoughtful, actually--it's just the way you put it could have been phrased to be a little more inclusive, that's all. I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but when someone writes things like "how many of us are witnessing a black church ceremony for the first time" it sounds exclusionary. Why is that? Well because so often on DU and other mostly white progressive communities online "we" and "us" are used when what people are really trying to say is "Caucasians"--witness the many threads that pop up from time to time asking how "we" can attract more people of color to DU (with the irony completely lost on the poster). I see from your subsequent posts that I see that I misunderstood you, and I'm sorry for snapping at you like that...things often get "lost in translation" online. This is just where I was coming from.

On DU there is a long history of racial insensitivity and on rare occasions outright hostility, especially in GD. I am not trying to speak for all of us by any means, but there are a number of black DUers who have felt marginalized to the point where some have left DU out of frustration that their voices were simply not being heard (all you need to do is hang out in the AA group for a while to see that). I have almost left here a couple of times myself, most recently in the wake of Hurricane Katrina and the flame wars in GD over it. I'm still sensitive about it, but I try to raise consciousness when I can. It's just hard not to have knee-jerk reactions sometimes even when it's not deserved.

Thanks for asking though. Dialogue is always a good thing.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

91. What is the AA group, Chovenxani?

[Chovexani]

93. African American Issues group

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=258

[TallahasseeGrannie]

95. Ah, ok. thanks.

[CornField]

98. Thank you for the thoughtful response

I knew there had been a few heated discussions here and there, but I had no idea the extent of the feelings involved. Unfortunately, my disposition to stay out of flame wars probably kept me away from threads where I should have responded. I apologize for that and will try to pay more attention in the future.

I'll never forget visiting my sister's home and her husband telling me to use the kids' bathroom for my shower. My sister jumped all over him and I didn't have a clue what was going on. I remember my sister yelling, "Don't ya know I'm white?!" (Probably a choice expletive or two thrown in there as well.) I found out years later, he thought white people smelled like wet dogs after a shower.

I think in some ways we all have our unique prejudices. The best we can do is retrain and educate ourselves. I'm thankful to Ms. Parks for allowing all of us to view her services -- what a beautiful, cultural exchange. I'm also thankful that thoughtful people can have discussions such as this one and really hear one another.

Thanks again for taking the time and for not letting the ill-informed push you away from a very public message board. All our voices are needed.

[Chovexani]

109. Dialogue is important

Even when it gets frustrating (maybe even especially when it gets frustrating). Learning and growing with each other is the only way to change things. We're all connected after all.

I think it's a beautiful thing that so many people are sharing in a new experience, something outside their usual sphere. I've been thinking a lot about the ancestors lately, because of the time of year, and I don't think it's coincidental that Rosa Parks has gone to join them now. The power of her legacy is such that it will continue to bring people together long after she's left this plane.

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. All the time...Church is church. this could be reversed to ask

how many black people have been to a mainly white, Protestant service? Barriers need to be brought down now. We all shoot ourselves in the foot.

[CornField]

25. I was not placing barriers... quite the contrary

On the whole, black Christian services are different in their tenor than white Christian services. I don't think it is a bad thing to point out the obvious and to discuss such differences.

It would also be interesting to know the thoughts of those who are use to black religious ceremonies when and if they've visited predominantly white religious ceremonies.

Our differences are not something we should shy away from -- they are things we should celebrate about one another. It's the spice of life, MrsGrumpy.

:hi:

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. I've just never thought in those terms. Really, as a human race, our

celebrations are quite similar. It is the essence of what is being celebrated that grabs me most. Not how we do it. :hi:

[CornField]

36. I'm probably way too curious for my own good

I enjoy looking at both the similarities and the differences. For instance, the Garden of Eden story or the consumption of knowledge which results in exile from diety: it is represented in almost every world religion. The difference is, only in the Christian religion does a woman play such a horrible role.

I also enjoy looking at the various religious symbolism throughout the world. It is truly amazing to me how so many people -- people who had never met -- introduced such similar religious images.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. Do you know if the Adam/Eve story is part of the

tradition of Islam, too?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. I LOVE how we do it

I totally GROOVE on it to the point I have made my living teaching about it!

So many cultures, so many different ways. I get the same shivers listening to Gregorian chant as I did in that Primative Baptist church.

Now, contemporary stuff..not so much. Maybe it is too familiar for me yet. Someday, 500 years from now, maybe Britney Spears will be thought of as quite esoteric!

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. I guess I worded it wrong. I get joy out of all of it. Not so much the how

but the moment. Whenever people are gathered for a celebration, reflection, etc...it moves me.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. No, you didn't word it wrong at all

I understand exactly what you are saying. As a teacher of middle school kids I attend four or five bar/bat mitzvahs a year. I am similarly moved by each of them. The ritual...the music. I even know some of the songs by heart now!

[lukasahero]

69. Is it about the churches or location?

I don't know how to ask that correctly, but when I was growing up (oh so long ago) I lived in a primarily white suburban town. Black and white attended my church but fact is fact - most people go to the churches that are nearest to them - it's part of the community and that is part of it's attraction to even the most liberal attendees.

As I mention up thread, I was the "music minister" at an AME Zion church for a while. AME = African Methodist Episcopalian and yeah, most of the congregation was not white and yeah, I was. I also had to travel to get there - well outside of my home town as it was in a nearby "city" (as compared to where I lived which was a farm town).

Neither church had any rules about the color of the people who could or should attend. The congregants generally chose the church that was closest to them both in style and locale.

The real problem is segregation by locale. "Black churches" tend to be found in "black neighborhoods" which tend to be found in the urban landscapes for a variety of reasons that need to be addressed. The problem isn't in saying that there are stylistic differences between "black" churches and "white" churches, it's in a) Chovexani's point that the assumption "we" means "white" and b) the fact that there are still economic barriers that keep the two separate. Bring down the economic barriers that keep POC in the cities and whites "flighting" to the suburbs and we probably won't have the segregation in the churches anymore either.

[ScreamingMeemie]

73. I think you worded that right. I live in just North of Detroit. With the

exception of Grosse Pointe (all of them), it's a pretty diverse area, of working to middle class (what's left of it) families. The Catholic churches tend to be predominantly white, but everything else is a mixed bag. Same as when I was growing up outside Milwaukee in Wisconsin. Luckily, my father raised us to see people. Hopefully, I'm doing the same with my own kids. You are correct, IMO, that it's a product of where we live.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

75. The exact opposite

is the case where I live. Tallahassee has a very small "urban" area and there are a few churches there. But the rest of the greater Tallahassee areas is extremely rural: farmland, subdivisions, plantations, etc. Down here virtually all the churches in the rural areas are AME or PB. The mainline denominations like Methodists, Presbyterian, etc., tend to move more towards the population center closer to the capitol. Not all..but a lot. The long country road that leads to my house is about 5 miles long. It has six PB churches on it!

[lukasahero]

85. Interesting. Where's the money located though?

Just testing my own perceptions.

Is the wealth in the urban areas or in the rural? (And is there a difference regarding who lives where and who attends which church?)

PS - PB = Pentacostal Baptist? Closest I could figure.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

89. PB = Primative Baptist

It is a denomination that is predominantly black in this area.

The wealth in this area is in the big subdivisions that are out from town. They ARE building some condos in town that will relocate some of that but they aren't done.

Now, there are still plantations (although owned almost exclusively by "Yankees") and THAT is big, big money.

The rural black church-goers are country people living in very small homes or mobile homes. Some of them have lived on those tracts of land since Emancipation. Or their ancestors...you know what I mean!

[lukasahero]

96. Learned something new here today

Thanks for the explanation. I had never heard of that denom before.

So do you think the economics are creating the barriers in the churches or the churches are? I suppose I should first ask, are there barriers in the churches?

Does sound like who lives where is backwards from up here though (where us "Yankees" live ;)) Interesting.

(Oh, and just to make clear - no offense was taken over the use of the word "Yankee". I just thought it was kind of funny me being one of them and all. :hi:)

[Burning Water]

99. Just my own observations

Blacks, as a group, tend to prefer one style of worship service, while whites, as a group, tend to prefer another. I'm white, and go to a white church, but we have a few black members, especially in our deaf ministry. I have at least one white friend who attends a nearby black church.

People do tend to cluster with other people who share their tastes and values. Most church barriers, at least in churches I am acquainted with, no longer exist, colorwise. It may be different in your area.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

122. I believe I could walk into any black church

in this town and be welcomed with open arms, and I believe the same would be true for 90 percent white churches in regards to black members.

However, many of my colleagues are black and I know that their church is very much a part of their racial identity and while they would have no problem with worshiping with white folks to a certain extent, yet they want to go to a black church, if that makes any sense. The black churches here are just so important in the community, with the children, the women... a huge, huge part of southern culture you wouldn't want to interfere with. If we suddenly integrated fully, they would lose that and that would be tragic. The white churches aren't what they are because they are white, but to a large extene the black churches are. Those churches took those people up from slavery and are the rock of their culture.

Does that make any sense? I actually spoke with my teacher's aide today who attends a PB church and she made these points to me.

[lukasahero]

136. Thanks

Yeah, that absolutely makes sense to me. The post above this also makes sense in that part of it is "style". I tend to believe a "black church" would still be a "black church" even if half or more of the congregants were white. (It's the emotion, the presence, the spirit and community of the church more than the color of the congregants that makes the difference in my experience.)

I just found the topic interesting and was wondering why, as some here ask, we still have "black churches" and "white churches" any more and what the dynamics behind that phenomenon are. I tend to think it's part culture and part economics. My point was that suggesting the distinctions don't exist isn't honest but perhaps, we could learn to call the distinctions by another name?

Are they "black churches" and "white churches" or are they urban/suburban/rural churches or spirited/reserved churches? We've all kind of agreed that all colors seem to be welcome at most churches so why do we still define them by color?

Anyway, it's just a ramble on my part when I got thinking about a topic I find interesting. I would like to believe that most churches are in fact colorblind. It'd be nice to believe that anyway...

[ohio_liberal]

16. There are two black chuches locally

The African-American population in my part of Ohio is significantly less than the state average. There are two black churches within a couple miles of each other in my city--the AME and the Shiloh Temple. Now, I've never been to either church but the members of those churches come to sing at our church a few times a year. It's a beautiful thing. I'm not kidding, they make white folks in church seem like zombies. :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. does a Samoli clan zkr count?

Zkr is the ceremony of remembrance at the heart of worship for Sufis. I was honored to be invited to a Somali clan zkr in MN a few years back. I was welcomed and felt completely at home, as I was with my sisters and brothers. (for the record, I am caucasion)

[Just Me]

23. I always got there early so I could sit by ole' Joe,...

,...who handed out bubble gum every Sunday. :7 I loved that old man!!!

[msongs]

42. behavior at church is learned behavior based on culture..

if your experience is a quiet church where there is little call and response type interaction, that is how you will behave.

if your experience is a louder more boisterous interactive service that is how you will behave.

clearly for many, going to a completely different type of church culture is discomforting.



Msongs
www.msongs.com/impeachbush.htm

[TallahasseeGrannie]

46. Oh I totally agree

I think that those of us who went to church as children...that is where the heart stays. Now, I have a dear Roman Catholic friend who went to a very strict Catholic school in Boston where they recruited the children to sing at Saturday funeral masses. She has hated anything having to do with church ever since.

My early church experiences were very positive and very much wrapped up in the relationship with my dad, as we both sung in the choir, went to practice together, etc. I find that even though I have attended different sorts of services through the years, as I get older I am tending to seek out that experience again.

Both my parents are actually buried inside that church up in NJ, and that adds to my connection.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. Why? Are they getting the holy ghost at the ceremony?

:)

[Chovexani]

50. LOL

Wow that brings me back. My grandma was on the Deaconess Board in the church I grew up it so we always sat right behind them on Sunday. There was this one really...large Deaconess who always got the Holy Ghost and would always rock back and forth really hard. Problem is she always wore these HUGE hats and I would always end up with her hat in my lap when she got the Spirit. :rofl:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

61. That was one thing that I learned when I went to the PB

funeral... that fanners and revivers were very much needed!

My son is a paramedic here in town and they have calls on Sunday mornings to many churches where the Holy Spirit forgot that the recipient has high blood pressure!

[Chovexani]

66. The Holy Spirit should come with a warning label

;)

[ScreamingMeemie]

80. You owe me a new laptop...

:spray: That or the Holy Spirit does. :rofl:

[noiretextatique]

101. somebody was always fainting in my grandmother's church

when oversome by the spirit...usually one of the larger women :7

[AspenRose]

114. Sounds like my grandmother...

OK: Who here remembers the paper fans in church with MLK, JFK and RFK on them?

My grandmother's church in TX didn't have air conditioning so everyone had to use paper fans from the local funeral home to keep cool in the heat of summer. They had pictures of those three great men on them.

My white husband preferred going to a black church. He said it was the only place where he felt loved and accepted.

[Chovexani]

119. Oh man I remember those!

Always sponsored by the local funeral home. I had quite a collection of those growing up.

The thing i miss most about church though is the food they used to sell in the basement. I remember folks used to quietly sneak out before the benediction just so they could be first in line for Sister Brooks' greens and candied yams. :rofl:

[Window]

83. LOL! I was raised in a pentacotal Church of God In Christ.

I am black and I'm talking about the preaching, Holy Ghost, singing, shouting, playing tamboreens, speaking in tongues, you name it. As a youngster it would put the fear of God in you alright.

When I was about six years old, one Sunday the pastor said whatever you gave in the offering, God would increase it by 10%. I put in a dime and waited all day for my dollar...been pissed ever since. LOL!







Peace

[noiretextatique]

104. the pentacostals always managed to scare me

once i attended a prayer service in college. being fairly areligious myself, i didn't realize these folks were pentacostals. the leader started speaking in toungues, then started touching folks and transferring the spirit. i was praying that he didn't touch me, and the lord answered my prayer that day. i never attending another prayer meeting :scared:

[Window]

116. LOL! I ain't mad at ya.

They could scare the hell right out of you if you're not used to their service.




Peace

[noiretextatique]

138. sorry for the terrible grammar and spelling

that was also :scared: thank goodness for DU...it gave me something to focus on after my dad's funeral tuesday.
when we went to the mortuary to view his body on monday, we heard the minister who was going to do his service preaching for someone else, and we all cringed. he was hollering and carrying on so...and my dad would not have wanted that. so my mother asked him to tone it down for dad's service, and thankfully he did.

[Mountainman]

40. I used to go to a Black church with a friend of mine also in Columbus

Geogia a bunch of us went to a Black Catholic church while visiting my brother in Fort Benning.

I am proud to say that I was the lone white person in two James Brown concerts. I use to go with a Black girl that worked with me. When the time came to give away the bicycles they would turn the spot light on me.

[deutsey]

51. I've attended services at a "black" church before

I really loved it and felt very welcome.

[AirmensMom]

54. Our church did joint Easter services with a black church.

It was very cool. :)

[Missy Vixen]

64. If you're ever in Seattle, try Immaculate Conception Catholic Church

on Capitol Hill. The music is great and the people are even nicer. Their former priest decided I was a Catholic since I was baptized at birth in a Catholic hospital, so he encouraged me to join in the church as much as I liked. I never felt out of place there, and always very welcomed.

Julie

[Mutley]

68. I tend to avoid religious ceremonies and churches of any color...

Before my grandfather died I hadn't been inside a church since I was 11 or 12. Actually, I did go to the Basilica in Baltimore about 10 or so years ago, but that was more of a cultural and architectural journey than a religious one.

So, this is a first for me.

[Xithras]

78. Never visited one, and this is the first time I've seen one.

I was taught as a child that you should never speak above a whisper in church unless a priest asks you to, and that lesson kind of stuck. "Singing churches" have never been my thing.

[noiretextatique]

81. i grew up in southern baptist and church of christ churches

among others...all had black congregations. such was the nature of segregation, at the time.
i haven't been to church recently, but i was going to a religious science church regularly a few years ago. there are two in our city, one with a black minister and a mostly black congregation, and the other with a white minister and a mostly white congregation :shrug:

[politicat]

87. Nope.

My great-grandfather's minister for the last several years was the AME minister associated with the Hospice that helped my great-grandmother and assisted in his last year, as well. The ministers from the United Methodist church that he was a member of were less than willing to come the 2 miles out to the house once a week, so Grampa just saw Pastor Jeffries.

He preached the funerals, and even this atheist was moved.

[Pithy Cherub]

88. A Goin' Home Ceremony for Ms. Parks continues to teach America

appreciation and tolerance. That is fitting for Rosa to continue teaching. This made me realize how much I appreciate my cultural heritage and encourage others to appreciate something spiritual from another perspective.

Gospel Music for the heart and from the heart! Angels sing thee to thy rest, Rosa Parks!


As a kid, my brothers and I actually secretly rated the hats. You can't go to a Black Church and not appreciate the hats. ;)

[Chovexani]

92. The hats!

To this day I call them "First Baptist hats" after the church I grew up in. Some of those hats rose from mere head coverings to the level of performance art.

But my favorite were the little white doilies the Deaconesses used to wear. I still have my grandma's.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

94. Oh, yes, hats

I am a very large lady and shop at a store for very large ladies, and a number of my very large "sisters" are black and so there are a lot of those hats. Sometimes I try them on and remember the old days when "we" (as in white Episcopalians) wore hats to church. I keep threatening to try and start the style again, but I don't have the nerve.

In general, I think darker skin looks better in hats. They tend to wash me out. But I love hats. The bigger the better and if I could I'd wear one with a three-foot feather in it.

[GumboYaYa]

90. When I attend church, I attend a predominately black church.

I'm no regular, but it is my church. We have the best band and choir of any church in town. The funniest thing to me at first was how long the peace was. At most Catholic churches I had attended, the "peace be with you " part lasts a minute and is limited to the people immediately around you. At our church it can take thirty minutes. Every person there hugs and says hello to every other person. It is really amazing.

[Marymarg]

97. Christian Integration

I have been wondering why there has not been a drive (as far as I know) to integrate churches. It seems like such a natural place to start, to end racial unfairness.

To paint with a broad brush, Black people prefer an active participatory service with lots of rousing music. White people prefer a more passive role with organ music. I use this sterotype on purpose to make the point that there are many degrees in between these two extremes. So, I think that it would be such a good idea for churches (probably of the same denomination) share a common building. Having a traditional Black service and a traditional White service and common fellowship would naturally have some crossover. Plus having fellowship, Sunday School, etc. together would help bring down barriers. Also, think of all the money that could be saved in building costs!!

It sounds like such a good idea, someone surely has thought of this before. What do you think?

[Chovexani]

110. Megachurches tend to be far more integrated

Than traditional churches. At least that's been my experience. While there are evangelical congregations that are as segregated as anything you'd see in traditional denominations, from what I've seen they tend to be more diverse. There is more of an organized effort in the megachurch movement to integrate churches.

Unfortunately it also goes hand in hand with the conservative fundie politics of the white evangelicals. I guarantee you that the tiny number of black Republicans/Chimp supporters all go to megachurches.

[FrenchieCat]

115. I agree....

I went to a service in one of those Megachurches....and felt, without trying, like leaving as soon as I got there. The music was lousy, no bibles in the pew...but rather, they flash the biblical text on giant TV screens. Those on stage basically signal when they want and need applause, and it all seems lacking much spontaneous participation and an awful lot of "group think". I call these "Prosperity churches" as that is what they seem to preach for "prosperity" rather than Jesus' example of living a spartan lifestyle...

It is my belief that the tithes collected from the congregation by these churches are unfortunately utilized to put out the slick and colorful expensive pamphlets, the making of Cds, the payment of "superstars" speakers that are more "celebrities" than they are anything else (Smokey Robinson was the guest speaker when I attended), and the never ending expansion, modernization and upkeep of the church's vast grounds. I sadly doubt that any of that money finds itself going back into poor communities that might need programs for the children or any real substainable assistance beyond the traditional food baskets and used clothing drives.

Comparitively speaking, there is no comparing the two types of churches.

[Chovexani]

117. You just described my mom's church to a "T"

The conspicious consumption on display there really is disgusting. It looks more like a 5-star hotel than a house of spirituality. There's nothing but luxury SUVs in the (huge) parking lot. Giant fish tanks with expensive tropical fish in the lobby, the bookstore with DVDs of services, the fancy restaurant, cafe, cinema...you name the usual megachurch fixins and that place has them. They supposedly have outreach programs to the poor but honestly, that church is buppie central and I have a hard time believing anyone outside of that socio-economic group would feel comfortable there. I sure as hell didn't, and that was before they built the sprawling place they're in now. The homogeny, the conformity...it's stifling. There's no place there for the eccentric minister of music/choir director who everyone knew was "sweet" but appreciated anyway, or the old ladies who would get the Holy Ghost and shout. There is a slickness about it all that's disturbing to me, and I've never really been able to explain to my family why I could never go there.

The "groupthink" is at work in spades, too. Something that is very, very creepy is this call and response thing the pastor does all the time, where he says something and the whole congregation repeats it. They have this whole list of "catchphrases" for lack of a better word and the whole thing just feels very Borg-like. The final straw for me was when I actually was asked to leave the youth group I was part of for asking too many questions. I was told that I was hampering other people's spiritual growth because I wasn't just willing to "believe the Bible and take things on faith". :wtf:

[Hardrada]

106. Are there black Quakers?

That would be a switch! FGS services are absolutely silent but you can speak when the Inner Light (Holy Spirit) moves you.

[kwassa]

134. Yes there are many black Quakers

because the Quakers were instrumental in the Underground Railroad and other anti-slavery activities. Blacks settled around Quaker communties like the nearby one in Sandy Spring, Maryland.

I hear that the music really sucks, though.

[Justpat]

140. There are Black Quakers.

At Friends Yearly Meeting, the annual meeting for business
and worship of a certain group of states, you will see
some Black Quakers. There are not too many, but there aren't
too many Quakers either.

I was a member of NY Yearly Meeting and met some great Black
Friends from the NY area. The 15th Street Meeting had more
black members than the other Meetings.

[Hardrada]

141. Thank you. I 'm sure there are.

I have always admired Quakers for their pacifism and instinct for deeper spirituality. And have studied the works of George Fox myself though we have no Quaker meeting anywhere close to us.

[FrenchieCat]

112. As a black Baptist, I love my church, and find it liberating and

the fellowship warm and "real"!

If you ever find yourselves in the Bay Area, regardless of your color, please come and worship with us at Allen Temple Baptist Church in Oakland, California. We welcome one and all and we acknowledge and applaud our visitors. You will get warm handshakes and hugs from a large congregation along with recognition and respect. Our choirs are some of the best anywhere around. This is Barbara Lee's church! Jim Wallis (God and Politics) is schedule to speak there in a month or so! (Iam on the committee and can provide more info...just pm me).

I attended service at the Harvard Yard Chapel last Sunday, while visiting my Harvard Freshman daughter, and discovered minister Dr. Peter Gomes, an African American ....who has been at Harvard for 35 years as a minister and Professor, to be one of the most gifted orator that I have ever heard (a treat to those who admire Shakespeare) who spoke low of Pres. Bush and spoke clearly against the War in Iraq. Soooo, if you are located in Boston or visiting, please attend his 11:00 a.m. Sunday service. You won't be disappointed....and the heavenly Havard Chapel choir will sound like angels to your ears.....almost as wonderful as the gospel sound! :thumbsup:

[shanti]

113. not the first

my (biracial) son's auntie succumbed to breast cancer a couple of years ago. it was the first black funeral i'd attended. i was also priveleged to witness the videotaped "nine nights" funeral celebration in jamaica of my exboyfriend's mother. that was something i'll never forget! it was NOTHING like a funeral in the u.s., not even an aa funeral.

and i've been to black church services several times too in the bay area (richmond). i've always wanted to attend services at the glide memorial church in sf one day...i've heard that it's awesome.

[JNelson6563]

127. As an atheist I don't catch many "black" services

white ones either. heh

[libnnc]

128. I had the honor to attend an historic AA church in DC

Asbury United Methodist Church was just a stone's throw from the International Hostel. I attended Sunday morning services the weekend of the big march this past September. I'm white and I was raised and confirmed in the United Methodist Church. It was their homecoming at Asbury and I had a very emotional experience that morning. Wonderful congregation and an important historical church.

[J_T]

129. There were two in my hometown

and neither welcomed white people. You could go in but the treatment wasn't very warm. I went ONCE and listened for about a half hour how white people were trying to take their land (the church) which wasn't true and never happened. It was very strange. The other church asked for money before you attend services and a black friend of mine when I was in 9th grade said his mother said they only asked whites to do that.

No hard feelings. I was never going to become a part of any church white or black. But I found this type of racial divide educational.

[ultraist]

131. No, not the first time

I've been to several weddings and funerals at Black churches here in NC, all Baptist.

My son attends a Black Baptist church fairly regularly with his friend's family.

[kwassa]

132. Most churches are still pretty segregated

Most churches are still pretty segregated in this country, due to generations of social segregation. Most black denominations were formed independently, because they were not welcome in white churches. Within denominations, there will be churches that are black or white.

It is changing more these days, but there was the old saying that the most segregated moment in America is Sunday morning.

I'm in an interracial marriage, so we go to integrated churches, but I've been in all-black churches, too, from little country churches of my wife's relatives to F.A.M.E., as First AME is known in Los Angeles, a political power center of the city. My first experience as a teen was at the Mount Zion Baptist Church, in Ohio, on a field trip in a Unitarian youth group where we visited many churches. My reaction was that the Mount Zion church seemed a whole lot more fun than the Unitarian church. I also thought the Russian Orthodox church was pretty interesting.

I've also sung in an integrated mass gospel choir in a new-age metaphysical church. Figure that one out. A great choir, all-original music, very much the black Baptist style.

[Matariki]

133. i study Vodou

and it's services are religious. and beautiful. does that count?

[Justpat]

139. I used to attend a Black Church in rural VA

when I lived there. It was a wealthy area, kind of like it must
have been back in the Civil War days when all the white people
owned fantastic amounts of land and all the black people and
poor whites worked on that land. I went to some of the white
churches when I first moved there but I never felt at connected
with them.
I ended up going to the Black Church for many years. I was made
to feel completely at welcome and at home there.