Pro-death-penalty Christians and hypocrisy - conversation with my stepmom

[StellaBlue]

Today we were watching the Sunday morning politics shows, as usual. The topic turned to Tookie Williams, the ex-Crip and convicted murderer whose fate is currently hanging in the balance as we await a decision from The Governator on whether to grant him clemency or not. So when Cokie Roberts and George Stephanopolous come down on the side of clemency, saying they think the death penalty should be abolished, my stepmother says, in an irate voice, AT the television, 'How would you feel if it was YOUR relative he murdered?!'.

I didn't get into a debate with her, but, rather, ignored her and the ensuing chatter amongst the family. But I started thinking more deeply and more specifically about why this sort of attitude, from someone who regularly harangues me about being a nonbeliever (though she doesn't got to church herself because, as she says, 'You can worship God without going to church') bothers me.

What bothers me is the total disconnect between the words of Jesus Christ and the political beliefs of his purported followers. Her attitude or 'fry em all and let God sort em out' strikes me as not only conventionally unfeeling and shallow, but also as offensively unChristian, even to me, someone who is largely anti-Christianity.

Was not Jesus's message, essentially and transformatively, about forgiveness? Was not Jesus willing to die himself so that others could be brought to the right path, be redeemed? Are we not exhorted by both Bible and pulpit to take up our cross and follow Jesus, to ask 'What Would Jesus Do?' and to be ever-ready to turn the other cheek, err on the side of forgiveness, and pray for the repentance and conversion of others, people just like Tookie Williams?

Surely it is better to allow Tookie to live, especially if he is indeed a changed man, one who has seen the error of his ways. Surely, if you are a Christian, you ought to be willing to give other people the chance to embrace what's right, to change the course of their lives, to seek repentance and atonement, and, ultimately, heaven? To lust after electric chairs and, as my stepmother advocates for Tookie, 'an old-fashioned public hanging', is to turn one's back on the message of Jesus. It is irrelevant whether the victims' families want him to be killed. Some of them surely do; others may not. But, it seems to me, to deny him the chance for transformation and forgiveness, as well as to deny possibly thousands of young boys (and girls) the opportunity to be changed by his anti-gang message, is to be not only hateful and unChristian, but to embody the very faults for which you want Tookie to die. The reason that pro-death-penalty Christians clamor for state-sanctioned murder is because they believe that the men and women on death row deserve to die. Perhaps this is true; that one who willfully takes the life of another might continue to live their own life, and that they might even one day be free and return to society, seems too much of an injustice for our consciences to bear. Gangbangers, child-rapists, serial killers... they all surely do deserve to die. But not only do these pro-death penalty Christians want to end the criminal's life; they want to do so because they believe in punishment in the afterlife. The believe these evildoers will go to hell.

And how Christian is it to call for the killing of another person because you want them to burn for eternity in a fiery pit? Surely, as Christians, they should afford these sinners the chance that Jesus afforded to them: the chance for repentance and conversion and transcendence. In this life.

Personally, I do not think that many of these people can be rehabilitated. Serial killers, child molesters, rapists, etc. - in my opinion they should all receive an automatic life sentence because they are a danger to society and cannot be rehabilitated. However, I am anti-death penalty. I do not want that blood on my hands.

Another thing I would like to point out is that this attitude is not so very different from the often-decried stance of 'fundamentalist' Muslims and 'Islamo-fascists': that all nonMuslims are by definition 'infidels' who deserve death. And, thus, hell.

I think the debate about the death penalty will remain forever unresolved in this backward, medieval country we live in. Most of the people who support the death penalty, I daresay, are people who believe in an afterlife and want to condemn these vile criminals to hell. And since we cannot even have a rational debate in this country about the role of religion in politics and culture, we certainly can't debate that. These Christians are afraid that, by letting the condemned live, they will escape their fate. They might not end up in hell.

But how Christian is that?

[Harper_is_Bush]

1. Have her listen to this when she's got 20 minutes to spare....

It's not a lecture on why the DP is bad....it's a stark glimpse into the reality of the DP which wraps up near the end with a wrenching account of PTSD suffering by a death row worker.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1112387

It's interesting regardless of which side of the debate you're on, but my belief is that it paints a profound anti-DP picture.

edit: PSTD = PTSD. :)

[roguevalley]

13. Agreed. people have quit the system in Texas, its so difficult.

I despise people who cherry pick their religion. The dickheads doing fatwas in Iraq and the dickheads doing fatwas here. A pox on all their houses. Or as my mom says, boy are they going to be surprised when they die and end up in hell.

[FreedomAngel82]

2. I know how you feel

It's so silly how they worry so much about a fetus and than when an actual living and breathing human being is about to really be murdered they could care less. And in a lot of cases they turn out years later to be innocent. There was a story reported not long ago where a Texas guy was put to death and evidence showed later on in the years that he was innocent. It really gets to me as a Christian as well that people do that. *sigh* But last night I was listening to Friday's archive of the Rachel Maddow show and she talked about this briefly and she reported more people now in the country are against the death penalty than they were in the 90's and majority of the country would like to see the death penalty done away with. Hear hear!

[OffWithTheirHeads]

3. I really don't understand the disconnect these people

seem to have between the teachings of Jesus and their version of Christianity. I can only conclude that they read the "King George" version of the bible. The one with Adam and Steve, killing for fun and prophet, blastocyst babies, Christmas without the holiday (forget that the term meant Holy day) But no Jesus in their bible.

By the way, these people are not pro-life. They are pro-birth as punishment for the sin of sex but they don't give a fuck about you after you are born.

[StellaBlue]

15. "they don't give a fuck about you after you are born"

Funny you should mention that; my mom and I were just watching Law and Order and there was some abortion controversy on there (I wasn't really watching 100%). We were talking about how funny it was that one of the characters appeared to have gotten angry because one of her students was planning on paying for his girlfriend to have an abortion and ran over him with her SUV. That sums it up, I think.

[Mythsaje]

4. For me it's even simpler than that.

Even if some people deserve it, as long as the sorting process is as unjust and out of balance as it is, I don't think the state has any business killing people. The notion of one innocent person--which, I imagine, might represent any one of us here--being put to death because the system is over-burdened, corrupted, or callous--is so awful for me to contemplate I'm willing to say that no one should be slain for the sake of the state or as catharsis for the families of those who've been murdered.

Unless one can state with absolute certainty that an innocent person will never suffer this fate it's intolerable that the state has the right to put anyone to death.

And that's even before we even get into the issues you're talking about. With all of that to consider, I can't help but be opposed to the death penalty in general. It's more harmful to society than helpful.

And, speaking for me, I think death's too good for the worst of them anyway. Of course, I don't believe in hell, so that's a stumbling block there. I tend to believe state sanctioned executions are little more than a human recycling program. I'd rather see people recycled into THIS life rather than imagining them recycling into another.

I know it's a weird view, but that's me.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

5. Not at all

I think that there are some people out there whose crimes are so henious that tht need their corks pulled but...the current system is too fucked up to be allowed to decide who. Too many things like money, or lack thereof, celebrity, race, or simply Old Testament judges and juries and corrupt prosecuters influence who gets it.

It does not work and needs to be stopped.

[StellaBlue]

7. YES! re: human recycling

This was my point re: hell.

We can't argue this with the pro-death-penalty Christians. I think the worst punishment, which I would advocate for murderers, rapists, etc., would be to sit for 50 years in a 4-by-4-foot cell, alone, thinking about why you are there.

But of course those who believe in an afterlife don't - can't - see it this way.

Nevermind the chance of an innocent person being killed. This is what people these days are missing about the rights of the majority vs. the rights of the minority. The Bills of Rights guarantees the LATTER. Only they don't realize this. Without the Bill of Rights, we could have a Muslim fundamentalist Supreme Court enforcing Sharia law, we could have innocent people finding themselves in medieval, Inuisition-style executions, etc. THIS is why I am against torture and the death penalty and Christianity enshrined as law. NOT because I am soft on crime, sympathetic to terrorists, or hate Christians. But because to take MY rights today, my rights under the Bill or Rights to be an atheist, to have a fair trial - you are thereby taking away your rights in the FUTURE, when you may no longer find yourself in the majority.

But, sadly, most Americans are too ignorant to realize this.

[ContraBass Black]

9. I believe in the afterlife

And I'd rather go to Hell for eternity than rot in a cell for 50 years and then go to Hell for eternity.

[Mythsaje]

14. This frustrates me too...

By protecting the rights of those you disagree with, for whatever reason, you are also protecting your own rights...that it's necessary for the state to view all factions equally because any faction could somehow gain ascendency and turn the guns against any other faction at any time. Christians screaming for the return of prayer in schools and putting their religion at the forefront don't seem to realize that one of the original purposes of a wall of separation was to keep the state from supporting one Christian sect over another. It just so happens that this same concept also should protect those of minority religions and no religion at all just the same.

Jefferson put it best. "It matters not to me if my neighbors have forty gods or no gods...it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

That might be a slight paraphrase, but it's definitely the gist of his comment.

The fact is that everyone's safer if the state holds no position whatsoever on religious matters. Either all religions are aloud a voice in secular society and the public arena, or none can be. And it is the Christians who scream the loudest if anyone but them get such a voice...

I consider this a demand for "special rights" and it's not going to fly in MY America.

[Warpy]

6. Well, it WAS my relative who was murdered

and having the state kill her murderer in my name would have made it all worse.

As it was, he was locked up where he couldn't do it to anyone else and finally died in prison. I sincerely hope he came to realize what he had done and came to terms with it.

Killing him would have solved nothing. It wouldn't have brought anyone back to life, and it wouldn't have done a damned thing for me.

I'm against the death penalty because of who I am, not because of who they are.

[StellaBlue]

8. Thanks for this

I suspect I would feel the same way. After, of course, the initial shock and desire for revenge and after the pain and anger had subsided just enough to allow me to think.

But I cannot say.

I applaud your strength.

I have a friend whose brother was murdered many years ago. The woman is very liberal, one of the most liberal people I know, but is pro death penalty. Not because she wants or thinks he will rot in hell; not because she thinks he will escape. But because she has to go, every seven years, to fight, along with her family, for the murderer to stay in prison rather than receive parole. This must be changed. Luckily Texas now has life-without-parole. As of only the last few WEEKS. I think if she thought that was a viable option, she would prefer it over the death penalty. But I can see her point about how painful it is to dredge up the past ever few years and to live in fear that the man will get out. That must be exhausting. And it's unfair, as she did nothing wrong.

[mvd]

11. First of all, I'm sorry about your relative

And thanks for being so strong. If I had a relative killed, I believe I'd feel the same way. For those who say, "how do you know?", I'd say I don't even want to think about it ever happening.

[eek MD]

10. Even sicker....

My parents complain about the DP process taking too long. They don't believe it's a deterrent with all of the time it takes to do appeals and whatnot.

Sometimes i wonder if my parents might be space aliens.
----
Personally, i look at it this way. If it was wrong for the person to commit murder, What makes it ok for the government do the same thing back to them?

[StellaBlue]

12. indeed

My parents were saying the exact same thing. :/

I get the impression that they think no one should even get an appeal. Again, as per my previous post, how would they feel if it was THEM that was wrongly accused?

[Cats Against Frist]

16. Don't try to make sense of it

You can never figure these things out. I, myself, was thinking -- until my brain almost exploded -- about why evangelism is necessary, if God can't damn someone who is an "innocent," i.e. has never heard the "good news." If Evangelicals wanted people to get into heaven, why wouldn't they just leave everyone the fuck alone?

[DanCa]

17. I am trying to think how to respond.

See am a neutreal on this for several reasons. On one hand thiers the whole seperation of church and state issue, on the other I do believe it is wrong to take an "innocent life" With that said I also believe in self deffense and letting otheres come to thier own conclusion.
I think you can say that while I would have no qualms about pulling the lever on a proven child molester or someone who rapes a woman i wouldn't want to sign in or take the responsibility for anyone else. What I sincerly believe is that it should be up to the victims family to determine whether the DP is in option based on the severity of the atrrocity and the level of proven guilt on the criminal.

Whether I am a christian or not, well that's gods call.
:shrug: