What happens if you refuse to surrender identification

[im10ashus]

when authorities demand it? You may go to jail. Or, you may not.

http://alternet.org/images/managed/Story+Image_thumb_120905_story.jpg

*snip*

Deborah Davis, a 50-year-old mother of four, is by all accounts an ordinary woman who worries about ordinary things like her mortgage and the safety of her middle son, who is a soldier in Iraq. To save money, she rides the bus to work in Denver, Colorado. That is, she used to ride the bus to work, until one morning in September when she dared to do what my favorite bumper sticker urges people to do: Question Authority.

Every morning, Davis's bus follows a route through the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices in an area with increased security. Every morning, officers from the Federal Protective Services, a branch of the Department of Homeland Security, board the bus and check the IDs of all passengers, whether or not they are exiting the bus at the Federal Center. Davis found it odd and irritating that she had to get out her ID just so an officer could glance at it; not even checking it against a "no ride" list or, maybe, a "no exiting at the Denver Federal Center" list.

One September morning she decided to stop being so compliant. And that's where the story gets interesting.

Davis says her discussion with the officer went basically like this:

Officer: "Do you have your ID?"
Davis: "Yes."
Officer: "May I see it?"
Davis: "No."

cont'd...

http://alternet.org/story/29268/

[Broken_Hero]

1. Good one...

I am glad she stood up and fought, its hard for people (myself included sometimes) to take a stand up to authority figures. And in my experience the second you question them, they turn into an overbearing ass, and demand respect....:) Good article, recommended...

[im10ashus]

3. She definitely took one for the team.

It seems like a small matter but then when you see how they reacted to her, it makes you wonder, where DOES the buck stop. Living here in NYC where they can search me anytime I take the train, I see it every single day.

[firefox]

2. The woman was charged with a federal crime of not obeying a sign

You can bet there will be many more federal signs in the future. I think "Bend over" will be a big one.

[im10ashus]

5. I think "bend over" is already implied.

It makes you wonder which of our freedoms will the violate next?

[MercutioATC]

4. Here's the crux of the issue:

"Every morning, Davis's bus follows a route through the Denver Federal Center..." (bold emphasis mine).

She's entering a federal facility. They have every right to demand to see I.D.

[im10ashus]

6. Wouldn't/Shouldn't they have to post signs stating as much.

I mean, it's not like that's a written law. Or perhaps you are aware of something that myself and the ACLU are not? :shrug:

[MercutioATC]

7. It sounds as if there WERE signs...

"Ultimately, she was ticketed for violating two mundane-sounding federal regulations regarding compliance with signs and access to federal property."

"Jeff Dorschner, spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office in Denver, would not say whether any changes in the signs were planned..."


That aside, if you enter a federal facility and a federal law enforcement official asks for I.D., why would there be a need for a sign? It's not as if they're ticketing her for not having her I.D. out and ready to be examined, they're citing her for refusing to produce it when asked.

There a lot of things the ACLU does that I don't agree with. (I do support them as an organization because I believe they serve a vital purpose, but that's another thread).

[TX-RAT]

10. Then why did she show her ID several times before.

She was well aware of the procedures. She wanted to be a hard ass, and instead it bit her in the ass.

[im10ashus]

11. How is showing her ID protecting anyone?

It could be a fake ID. There's no way of checking that on the spot. And how exactly did it "bite her in the ass" when they later dropped the charges? Or should I refer to the thread that was posted "several days ago?"

[TX-RAT]

16. There's no way of checking that on the spot.

Sure there is, it's called NCIC.


(And how exactly did it "bite her in the ass")
She was cuffed and taken off the bus. And it will happen again if she refuses to identify.

[im10ashus]

19. So from ANY location the NCIC can tell if an ID is a fake?

Interesting. I did not know that.

[TX-RAT]

21. It won't match up with any known ID's

It also comes with a physical description.

[im10ashus]

22. And ID's can't be forged with all the correct information?

I'm just trying to see both sides here is all. :-)

It seems it would be more effective to not allow the public transportation onto such a high-security area in the first place.

[kath]

15. Well, maybe the bus needs to just go AROUND the Fed Ctr, and

let passengers off on bordering streets. It's a public bus route, after all.

[MercutioATC]

17. Sounds like a great idea to me.

Having a public bus go THROUGH a federal facility sounds like a lousy idea.

[TahitiNut]

20. "They have every right to demand to see I.D."???

They may have the power or legal authority, but that does not constitute a 'right'!!

(I really wish folks wouldn't abuse the term 'rights'.)

[MercutioATC]

24. Yes, "power" and "authority", but I also believe "right".

[TX-RAT]

8. old news, this was posted several days ago

[im10ashus]

9. That's not old news to all of us.

I didn't see the link, but thanks for pointing that out.

[AZBlue]

12. Thanks for the post. This story has been spun six ways to Sunday on DU.

I've seen several posts on this before and was outraged, because the facts that were given were very selective. No one mentioned the fact that she rides this bus every day through the Federal Center and that there were signs posted. It was also reported that a security guard one day asked her to see her id, as if this was just out of the blue and it was a bus company security guard, not that this was a routine situation and these were federal officers. Certainly changes the situation. A lot.

[im10ashus]

13. Thanks for the update.

Much appreciated.

[kay1864]

14. Case was "resolved" yesterday

...on the technicality that there was no sign.

Now there is a sign informing them that ID's are required.

This case isn't over. I'm expecting more people protesting this silly requirement.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4298626,00.html

http://www.papersplease.org/davis/facts.html

And MercutioATC, I might otherwise agree with you on the need for ID's at a Federal facility, except that (as papersplease points out),

"The bus she rides crosses the property of the Denver Federal Center, a collection of government offices such as the Veterans Administration, the U.S. Geological Survey, and part of the National Archives. The Denver Federal Center is not a high security area: it's not Area 51 or NORAD"

If they're getting OFF the bus, fine, check their ID's. If they're just passing through, nope, it's a stupid rule.

[MercutioATC]

18. I like kath's idea...have the bus go AROUND the facility.

Seems that would solve some problems...

[AZBlue]

26. Just from a security standpoint, it would make a LOT more sense.

Plus be less of a hassle for the riders!!

[oneighty]

23. I wonder who maintains

the streets going through the facility. Are the streets equipped with gates and guard houses? Do motor vehicles passing in the streets require permits? Are those vehicles stopped for inspection?

180

[AZBlue]

25. I see the need for security even driving through.

You could have a bomb on you that would go off while it's going through the facility.

I think it's weak to ask for ID's as a form of protection though. I mean, if you're a suicide bomber, having your ID checked would thrill you, right? You want the credit for it, after all!