Re: Dean and Clark...Has anyone noticed...

[Rowdyboy]

1) todays headlines speak of a "Stop Dean" coalition involving Kerry, Edwards, and Gephart; thank God, Wes Clark has chosen not to indulge in this sort or negative crap.

2) yesterdays headline: That stupid blowup about the confederate flag. No one in their right mind thinks Dean is a racist. This was a giant clusterf**k but all the candidates piled on Dean EXCEPT FOR CLARK. His comments were very measured and non-judgemental.

I respect Clark more daily. I cannot imagine our two outsider candidates can't find a center ground that will allow them to unite in some combination capable of sending the illegitimate interlopers back to Crawford!

[madfloridian]

1. Clark has been thoughtful in his comments.

I agree.

[FrenchieCat]

2. Well for that matter,

Clark hasn't dump on anyone....

Can't say the same for Dean, malheureusement;(

WES CLARK HAS "IT"

[trogdor]

30. The closest Clark has come to slamming Dean...

...or anyone else was a reasoned argument why the tax cuts should be selectively rather than collectively abolished.

I have been angered to the point of distraction (and possibly almost being banned from DU for posting some of my more extreme frustrations) over some of the stuff Gephardt, Kerry, and Lieberman (don't know about Edwards) have said about Howard Dean. Win or lose, Doc is trying REALLY HARD to save the Party, and these people don't appreciate it, IMO.

We need to get new people on our team - Dean has done that.
We need to devise and employ new means of fundraising - Dean has done that.
We need new energy and a new approach to politics - Dean had provided that.
We need to differentiate ourselves from Bush - Dean does this; I don't see it from the 'establishment' candidates.

If any of these other folks gets nominated, they'll need the Deanies to win; the last thing they need to do is piss them off.

[mzmolly]

67. Exxxcellllent Point!!!

"If any of these other folks gets nominated, they'll need the Deanies to win; the last thing they need to do is piss them off."

Not to mention, (if Dean doesn't get the nomination) Dean is gonna have a HUGE pile of $$ to spend on who knows what??. I'm sure he'll put it to good use, but I dont know that the Dean bashers are gonna be recipients of said $$ if they continue the BS.

[calimary]

86. Truly an excellent post!

You're spot on. And you express another good reason why I also like Clark as a close second.

[w4rma]

3. Clark doesn't have to bash anyone when others are doing it for him (n/t)

[Rowdyboy]

4. Okay, that may be true, but doesn't

it say something when someone doesn't indulge in this sort of stupid behavior?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

33. Yes, it says he's not as desperate as

the Three Mouseketeers, yet.

[TLM]

51. And Clark knows better than to stick his neck out like that...

Clark knows if he goes negative... he'll get hit back with far worse from his record in Kosovo and his love fest for Reagan and Bush's leadership back in 2001.

Clark isn't throwing stones because he's not in the mood for a glass shower.

[Rowdyboy]

62. Clark isn't throwing stones because....

he's a class act. Americans (not ideological leftists but Americans) like bipartisanship-like it or not. Votes for Reagan won't hurt Clark with anyone but the far left.

Kossovo? Get real. He's running on his behavior in Kossovo-not from it. I can't wait for Bush to try to attack Clark on either of those lines. Wes would cream him.

[Clark Can WIN]

65. I think he's pretty proud of his record in Kosovo

I'd call that one of his shining moments of accomplishment. Stopping genocide is generally regarded in a positive light by those with an ounce of perspective.

[mzmolly]

68. True, and Clark doesn't want to stir his history IMO. I do appreciate it

though. I think a match up with these two would be an unstopable combo against Bush.

[tsipple]

5. OK, My Clark Theory

I think Clark is running for Vice President and, if a bit of luck strikes, President. If you're running for both offices you aren't going to be attacking any of the other candidates, especially those who could end up the nominee.

I think he'd be good on the ticket, however that ends up.

[Julien Sorel]

7. Yep.

Spending millions of dollars, subjecting himself and his family to outrageous negativity and attention, turning down a lot of money, making lots of enemies, all for the hope that someone else will pick him as their VP candidate.

The average Deanite...

[tsipple]

9. Actually, I'm Above Average

And a Deaniac, I believe. Thanks, though. :-)

In all seriousness, I'm trying to get my head around Wesley Clark's candidacy. I can't really figure out what his message is. You know, something simple, like why he wants to be President?

And that's why I'm falling back on my theory. And it's a good one. He's keeping his options open. It might be Vice President, it might be President. That's smart.

[Julien Sorel]

10. Gee, he wants to be president because he sees

the country going down the wrong road, and thinks he can put it on the right road. I believe he's said that since the time before he was a candidate, but you still don't know why he wants to be president?

[tsipple]

11. No, I Don't

And I'm being honest here. A clear message is important, and I'm not getting that yet from Wesley Clark.

That's a cliche, not a reason to be President. What's the "right road"? (Actually, shouldn't that be "correct road"? :-))

There's still time, though.

[Rowdyboy]

12. tsipple...What do you want to know from Clark that you aren't getting now?

I probably could come up with a solid answer to most of your questions. If not, I'll find the correct answer.

Seriously, please, let me know.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

17. Sounds exactly the same as Dean's platform

or was that Dean's platform you were describing?

[Julien Sorel]

23. Since they both got most of it from the DLC,

perhaps we can be honest and call it the DLC platform?

Oh, that's right, the DLC is evil. Dean said so, so it's impossible that he's pushing economic and healthcare plans based on their work -- that would be dishonest and hypocritical of him, and we know Dean isn't dishonest and hypocritical.

[w4rma]

38. Dean Statement in Response to DLC's Charge that Public Servants are "Fring

Dean Statement in Response to DLC's Charge that Public Servants are "Fringe Activists"

“Once again, the DLC has chosen to put their own political agenda ahead of the progress needed to unite the Democratic Party. This election has barely begun, and the DLC has repeatedly dismissed people who attend caucuses, who get out the vote, and now the 1.3 million members of AFSCME as ‘fringe activists’ who do not reflect ‘the mainstream values, national pride and the economic aspirations of middle-class and working people.’

“The DLC staff can say what they want about me, but they owe an apology to the 1.3 million members of AFSCME. Our teachers, our health care workers, and our state and local public servants don't need a lesson from Washington insiders about the needs and concerns of middle- and working-class families. What they need is a Democratic Party that will stand up for them.”

Posted by Mathew Gross at 04:27 PM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000206.html

Tell From and Reed of the DLC What You Think
Click here to sign a letter to the Democratic Leadership Council telling them that you're an active Democrat who supports Howard Dean. You can tell your friends about the link, too: www.deanforamerica.com/DLC

Posted by Mathew Gross at 01:29 AM
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000240.html

Fineman on the DLC Memo
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000213.html

Former DNC-Chief Steve Grossman to DLC: "Creating Conflict is Not Leadership."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000225.html

Liberal Oasis on Howard Dean and the DLC
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000226.html

Will the Real DLC Please Stand Up?
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000228.html

Congressional Members Call on DLC to Stop Divisive Tactics
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000238.html

Activists Are Out of Step
By Al From and Bruce Reed
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=251866&kaid=85&subid=65

The Real Soul of the Democratic Party
By Al From and Bruce Reed
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=251690&kaid=127&subid=900056

[Julien Sorel]

41. What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

Do you have a macro for this sort of thing? If you do, you need to focus on getting some specific topics in it, so your posts will actually be relevant.

I realize the idea is to let no statement unflattering to Dean go unchallenged, but you need to challenge with something that is in some way on-topic if you hope to accomplish anything.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

58. who in the DLC dissed AFSCME and when? eom

[bearfartinthewoods]

74. kicking for an answer. we have an AFCME member in the family.

[bearfartinthewoods]

76. spending millions of dollars?

of who's money? it isn't his money and his exposure sure as hell will boost his booksales and put money IN HIS POCKET.

[Forkboy]

88. The average response

from an average Clarkie.

[FrenchieCat]

8. I am sorry to

burst your bubble.......

THIS LOOKS LIKE A PRESIDENT, NOT A VP TO ME
VPs DON'T HAVE "IT"

[Julien Sorel]

6. People are still spinning the Confederate flag issue,

even non-Deanites. I don't think Dean is a racist, and I didn't see any of the candidates, including Sharpton, say Dean was a racist. My issue is with how cavalierly Dean treats the Confederate flag. He is totally clueless about the thing, and yet he claims to talk to white audiences about race issues. He's out of touch and overly ambitious, not a racist.

And Sharpton is right about something else: Dean's agenda, as he has stated it, is anti-traditional black. Dean has been doing a lot of re-shuffling lately, but his call to balance the budget, his record of eliminating social programs in Vermont, his old desire to take out the race component from AA, and his complete ignorance about the Confederate flag would be things I would want to call him on were I in Sharpton's place. Was it 'just politics' for Gep and Kerry? To a certain extent, yes it was. There is some fire in that smoke as well, though, until you start pretending the issue is Dean's 'racism' which is a non-starter. How could the guy be a racist? He's probably known 30 black people in his entire life, maybe two of them well.

[Hep]

18. you're out of touch, I'm out of time

I don't think Dean is a racist, and I didn't see any of the candidates, including Sharpton, say Dean was a racist. My issue is with how cavalierly Dean treats the Confederate flag. He is totally clueless about the thing, and yet he claims to talk to white audiences about race issues. He's out of touch and overly ambitious, not a racist.

Al Sharpton called his platform "Anti'Black" but he's not calling Dean a racist?

Dean has been making this comment for many months, and no one gets their fucking panties in a wad about it until now? This is such BULLSHIT!

Dean's point is that the dood with the C Flag on his pickup truck needs affordable healthcare and educational opportunities just like the poor black kid in the inner city. Why the hell is it even being discussed?

[DrFunkenstein]

22. Why Did He Have To Use The Flag To Indicate Rednecks?

Not offense to rednecks. I had a mullet back in Junior High, so I can't talk. Why didn't Dean say NASCAR Dad or "gun rack in his pick up truck" or trailer trash or Jerry Springer guests? (you get the idea)

[Hep]

26. I have a theory

of course I can't tell you HIS motivation, but I think he used the reference to drive home the point that even our idealogical opponents have the same needs we do. I guess he could have said Gun Rack, or Earnhardt sticker, but what difference does it make?

[TLM]

50. Simple funk...because the guy with the confed flag is likely a repuke.

that is Dean's whole point about breaking the hold that the repukes have had on the south for 30 years by going to these conservatives and saying hey what have the republicans done for you?

[Julien Sorel]

25. You're out of clues.

Dean's platform/history, as I explained above, is anti-black, so Sharpton is correct. It doesn't make Dean a racist; it makes him ignorant and perhaps apathetic about black America, which again, I explained above. In fact, since everything you wrote was pre-empted by my post above, I have to wonder why you bothered with this.

[Hep]

28. Well, you're wrong

Dean's platform, as I explained above, is anti-black, so Sharpton is correct.

You did a poor job of explaining anything. But your bias is well known. You'd sell Dean as a child molesting crack dealer if you thought you could get away with it.

Dean's platform is not antiblack. Only mindless chimps too fixated on their hatred of the man try to push that point. When you and sharpton get a consensus about his platform from the entire black community, you MIGHT regain some credibility.

You talk about his agenda, but fail to point out ONE plank on his platform that is antiblack. You point out snippets of quotes from 8 years ago. You take actions from when he was governor out of context. You misinterpret things he has said, but you suck at proving your point!

You say his agenda is anti black. Show me one thing from his platform, on his website, and explain in detail why it is antiblack.

Of course, if you COULD, you WOULD HAVE. Instead you prove how rabid and senseless your attacks are. Not that it wasn't apparent from the start.

[Julien Sorel]

34. Can you read?

Chimps can read. Bush can read. But you can't?

I explained above: his obsession with balancing the budget, which means there will be cuts in social programs. His record of cutting social programs in Vermont. There's more to what black Americans want than the Dean mantra of healthcare.

Who on earth are you, incidentally, who can't even comprehend simple posts and who uses words like 'chimps' (while hiding safely behind your monitor) when obliquely referring to black people to talk about credibility?

[Hep]

40. ???

Chimps can read. Bush can read. But you can't?

The fact that I can write suggests that I know what I'm writing, don't you think? This is perfect evidence of how slowly the wheels in your brain turn.

I explained above: his obsession with balancing the budget, which means there will be cuts in social programs.

This is a detailed explanation? WHICH social programs? How big will the cuts be? How will repealing the tax cuts affect that? Would affordable healthcare not balance out any cuts in social programs? I asked for detail, and you (the reading expert) spew out vagueries. Of course, it's as I was expecting, so worry not. You're shooting par.

His record of cutting social programs in Vermont.

I asked for details about his PLATFORM, which you claim is anti-black, not his RECORD. Surely you know the difference. Of course you do.

There's more to what black Americans want than the Dean mantra of healthcare.

Such as? I asked for SPECIFICS. Next time you give your reading lesson, make sure you use that as a vocabulary word.

Who on earth are you, incidentally, who can't even comprehend simple posts and who uses words like 'chimps' (while hiding safely behind your monitor) when obliquely referring to black people to talk about credibility?

Are you suggesting what I think you are suggesting? Are you about to pull a Hannity on me. Just say it, I dare you. Call me a racist for calling you out on your hateful LIES.

[Julien Sorel]

43. You're getting way over the top here, so this will be brief.

The fact that I can write suggests that I know what I'm writing, don't you think? This is perfect evidence of how slowly the wheels in your brain turn.

The fact that you keep going over ground already covered suggests otherwise.

This is a detailed explanation? WHICH social programs? How big will the cuts be? How will repealing the tax cuts affect that? Would affordable healthcare not balance out any cuts in social programs? I asked for detail, and you (the reading expert) spew out vagueries. Of course, it's as I was expecting, so worry not. You're shooting par.

How do I know? I know what his rhetoric is, I know what he did in Vermont, and I know how budgets get balanced. Add them up, and social programs will get the ax. Which ones and how much? Dean's too vague to say; I certainly won't do it for him.

I asked for details about his PLATFORM, which you claim is anti-black, not his RECORD. Surely you know the difference. Of course you do.

I said his platform and his record. And you wonder why your reading ability is in question?


Such as? I asked for SPECIFICS. Next time you give your reading lesson, make sure you use that as a vocabulary word.

You asked, I'm not interested in writing a treatise on social programs in black America. Sorry, this is a message board, not a classroom, however badly a classroom is sometimes needed here.

Are you suggesting what I think you are suggesting? Are you about to pull a Hannity on me. Just say it, I dare you. Call me a racist for calling you out on your hateful LIES.

You know what you said, I know what you said, and it's pretty obvious after this post of yours that it wasn't accidental. If you think you see hateful LIES, you need to point them out, not call people chimps, and then try to pretend innocence.

[Hep]

45. show me!

The fact that you keep going over ground already covered suggests otherwise.

Show me where the ground has already been covered. I'f I'd read it, I wouldn't continue asking for specifics.

How do I know? I know what his rhetoric is, I know what he did in Vermont, and I know how budgets get balanced. Add them up, and social programs will get the ax. Which ones and how much? Dean's too vague to say; I certainly won't do it for him.

Here we have it. YOU DON'T KNOW. I'm glad I finally got it out of you. But let's take it to the next step. Dean's too vague. Where? Name some comments from his website that are too vague for you.

I said his platform and his record. And you wonder why your reading ability is in question?

1 You've yet to dremonstrate how his record is anti-black with any credible specificity.

2 You have yet to explain how your vague complaints about his record translate into his platform.

You asked, I'n not interested in writing a treatise one social programs in black America. Sorry, this is a message board\, not a classroom, however badly a classroom is sometimes needed here.

Like I said, you're shooting par. When challenged you back off like every other Dean Hater. Yeah a clasroom is needed here. But you, the apparent holder of some great truth that 480,000 people don't understand, refuse to take on the role of teacher. And why? The teaching guide is lost? Kerry or Clark haven't come out with specifics so you can't? Sharpton won't return your calls?

You know what you said, I know what you said, and it's pretty obvious after this post of yours that it wasn't accidental. If you think you see hateful LIES, you need to point them out, not call people chimps, and then try to pretend innocence.

I dare you. Post it. Tell me I'm a racist.

[Julien Sorel]

46. You might as well cut and paste your post.

I don't owe you 'specificity.' If you need to be told how Dean's record of cutting social programs would present a threat to blacks, then you're even more ignorant about black America than Dean is, which is quite an accomplishment.

Like I said, you're shooting par. When challenged you back off like every other Dean Hater. Yeah a clasroom is needed here. But you, the apparent holder of some great truth that 480,000 people don't understand, refuse to take on the role of teacher. And why? The teaching guide is lost? Kerry or Clark haven't come out with specifics so you can't? Sharpton won't return your calls?

You're simply frothing at the mouth here.

I dare you. Post it. Tell me I'm a racist.

Nah nah nah I dare you :eyes:

Sorry, they have rules about that sort of thing here. Your words, however, speak for themselves.

[Hep]

47. LOL

I don't owe you 'specificity.' If you need to be told how Dean's record of cutting social programs would present a threat to blacks, then you're even more ignorant about black America than Dean is, which is quite an accomplishment.

You don't owe me anything. This is just a message board. Just say it, you only want to make vague attacks, you don't want to be held accountable for your words. It's cool. See, I already knew that.

And I live in black America, so, whatever! Say what you want, you can't back it up. It's all vague attacks.

And you know why you won't come out and call me racist. Because I'm not. And you know it. I don't know what nationality you are. And you know this. I don't care. All of your attacks are the same. Lies, misinterpretations, vague attacks. I appreciate every opportunity to demonstrate who YOU are in this forum.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

55. Social programs can;t be funded without a balanced budget...

That's the whole reason repukes want to run debts, so they can have an excuse to cut those programs. As we saw under Clinton a balanced budget helps everybody regardless fo their skin color. SO to claim that sound fiscal policy is anti-black is not only stupid, but boardering on racist.

As for cuts in VT social programs, are their more social programs now than there were before Dean? Or more accuratly are their more people who are covered by programs than before? Dean did cut some programs, while expanding others and creating new programs to pick up where old ones had been scaled back. SO if your ignroant claim it that Dean somehow is anti-black because he cut some social programs, then I guess the fact he instituted many programs and expanded others makes him pro-black.


And Billy chimp is the term most of the net dems use to describe stupid ass dittohead repukes who barf up talking points instead of thinking... a term growing more and more fitting for the CLark Corps Monkey Meme Squad. Though I understand why you might try to play the race card... you've got nothing else in your deck.

[bearfartinthewoods]

64. Why the hell is it even being discussed?

you are absolutely right. we should be discussing healthcare but we aren't because Dean made an amateurish, boneheaded comment and threw the debate into chaos. smooooth mooove, doc.

with candidates like this, we don't need an opposition.

[Hep]

73. harumph

you are absolutely right. we should be discussing healthcare but we aren't because Dean made an amateurish, boneheaded comment and threw the debate into chaos. smooooth mooove, doc.

Bzzzt. Dean made the comment, the NON comment. It was everyone whose panties got all up in bunches that threw it into chaos. There was no chaos when he made the same comment a month ago. No chaos when he said it two months ago. No chaos when he said it ANY number of months ago. Just now.

[Clark Can WIN]

75. yeah, I like Hall and Oates too...........

:eyes:

"Hep (1000+ posts) Tue Nov-04-03 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #6

18. you're out of touch, I'm out of time "

[TLM]

53. Same old crap from a desperate clarkie....

Dean cut social programs... yeah and insituted new ones. He cut welfare numbers in half by providing day care, job training, and health care for those trying to get off welfare... he expanded medicare... instituted the sucess by six program... expanded numerous other social programs.

What 99% of the cuts to social programs crap is based on is Dean telling the state leg that if they didn't cut spending in one ara it was going to translate into a cut in another area that would hurt social programs. THe Dean bashers try to spin that as Dean supporting cutting social programs.


And as Clinton showed us there is nothign anti-black about a balanced budget... that's just flat out stupid billy.

And care to point out the quote where Dean said he wants to take the race factor out of AA... because so far all I have seen to back this claim is a quote were Dean supports AA and says we should look at programs like it that are based on class and not race. He's talking about more programs to help the disadvantaged, not alterations to AA.

Unless you are saying the Jessie Jackson Jr. is lying about that. Are you saying that Jackson Jr. is also anti-black since his statement on what Dean said clearly contradicts your attack?

As for the confederate flag... what did DEan say that was so bad? THat he would talk to those folks with those flags in their trucks to try and undermine the racist southern strategy?

How is that anti-black, Billy?


"How could the guy be a racist? He's probably known 30 black people in his entire life, maybe two of them well. "

Dean did his medical internship in an ER in the bronx... he's probably saved the lives of more minorities than you've even met, Billy. And we see once again how you Clark Corps bashers pick hate for Dean over reason or truth.

[veganwitch]

71. thats kinda rude aint it?

however i have to agree with billy on this.

i dont think dean is sincere on race issues

[Hep]

77. Then maybe you can pick up the slack

In what ways is he not sincere? I'm talking about his platform.

[veganwitch]

87. name dropping for one

in the debate in baltimore, i believe, he said his favourite artist is wycleff john. i just had a hard time believing that.

also, his race policies sound more like white man's burden than a true understand and sympathising with the problems, to my ears.

but i got to get back to work so i cant go further at this time.

[mzmolly]

70. You couldn't be more wrong....

"And Sharpton is right about something else: Dean's agenda, as he has stated it, is anti-traditional black. Dean has been doing a lot of re-shuffling lately, but his call to balance the budget, his record of eliminating social programs in Vermont, his old desire to take out the race component from AA, and his complete ignorance about the Confederate flag would be things I would want to call him on were I in Sharpton's place. Was it 'just politics' for Gep and Kerry? To a certain extent, yes it was. There is some fire in that smoke as well, though, until you start pretending the issue is Dean's 'racism' which is a non-starter. How could the guy be a racist? He's probably known 30 black people in his entire life, maybe two of them well.

Dean balanced the budget while maintaining social programs. That is trademark Dean. In addition, Sharpton made insensitive comments about other religions with is 'swastika' 'svastika' comparison. And, his 'timing' was most late if he was concerned. Dean has said these things since he began the race.

I have a thread in the works to address these BS claims.

Peace

[onebigbadwulf]

14. Okay

here's what happens in my dream world... ready everyone?

Dean / Clark ticket. they take 2004
they take 2008

Clark / Clinton ticket they take 2012
they take 2016

Clint / Kucinich ticket they take 2020
they take 2024


Kucinich becomes emperor of the world 2030

[HFishbine]

19. Hillary Clinton

was born in 1947, she'd be 81 at the end of her second term under your scenario. Who was the oldest president anyway?

[trogdor]

37. She's good for it.

Queen Elizabeth is about that old. Her mother was 101 when she died. Simple fact - women last longer.

[Rowdyboy]

15. self-satisfying kick

:kick:

[HFishbine]

16. Isn't it obvious?

Dean and Clark are going to be running mates.

[LEW]

20. tsipple-you say you are not getting a clear message from Clark

I am not getting a clear message from Dean-the only thing I hear from him is anti-war. That is the only thing I associate with him, I do not hear clear messages on the economy, medicare, etc.......

I'm sure he is talking about these issues, but I don't hear it - am only hearing anti war and attacks on other candidates.

[Ripley]

36. He was the first to come out with a Health care for all Americans plan.

The rest in Congress yak about it, but have done nothing.

I heard Dean speak about Universal Health care before I knew his position on the war.

[DrFunkenstein]

24. Obviously Dean Wants To Dismiss Clark As A VP

Personally, I'd be a hell of a lot happier with a Clark Presidency. I'm all for Kerry, but I'd be thrilled with a Clark or Edwards nomination. Gephardt I'm still a little pissed over the whole Biden-Lugar thing. If he hadn't pulled the rug out, Kerry would be the hands-down nominee - because on the actual issues he is head and shoulders above the rest.

<>

[HFishbine]

27. "Obviously?"

How?

[Clark Can WIN]

78. Because it's easier to dismiss him

than to Deal with him. It's to Deans greater advantage to throw the VP meme out there than to run his deferrment up against four stars in an election year that will be about security at least as much as it is about anything else.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. Dean's Not Racist, He Just Ignorant

There was absolutely no need to use the term "Confederate flag." It may sound like no big deal to you, but then again it probably doesn't to Dean. Maybe if your family had been enslaved and sold off to different farms, you're great-grandmother openly raped and had to watch her children beaten mercilessly and kept in chains, you might have a different perspective.

<>

[Hep]

31. While I appreciate the emotional appeal

of conjuring up images of rape, torture, and slavery, you're missing the point.

Is it or is it not true that even racist redneck fucks (and apparently everyone in the world who has displayed any version of the confederate flag, no matter how young, dumb, misinformed they might be is) need education and healthcare?

Are you arguing that we need universal healthcare for everyone BUT racists?

Dean was DESCRIBING a hypothetical person. Why should I be angry?

[Clark Can WIN]

81. Are you then saying it's a great thing for a candidate to stand up and say

"Hey! I want to represent the racists?" Because that is what your post implies.

Oh, and I spent 6 years in NC. (Willow Spring) That person is NOT hypothetical. And all the assholes I met with the CF on a pickup truck were proud racists.

on edit: He didn't JUST say they should have health care, he said we should be going after their vote. So we should be pandering to racists now? I apologize to the .0000* percentile of persons who have confederate flags on the backs of their trucks who do not consider themselves racists, I also beg them to consider the message they are sending is not exactly race friendly.

We bemoan the way German and Japaneese text books gloss over WWII. What about the way our country romanticizes an ugly bunch of traitors that took up arms in defense of their right to own and abuse black people?

[Hep]

84. IT's simple

Since you're letting me speak for him, he's saying "Racists need healthcare, too. And possibly more than anyone in this country, racists need access to good, affordable education."

Oh, and I spent 6 years in NC. (Willow Spring) That person is NOT hypothetical. And all the assholes I met with the CF on a pickup truck were proud racists.

All of the assholes, or all of the CF on pickup owners? And is that enough people to legitimately extend it to the whole state or the whole south?

In our hatred for a candidate, let's PLEASE not sell out our core values. Stereotyping is what got us into this mess.













*predicts that someone will claim that I have a CF sticker on my truck, which I do not*

[Ripley]

35. You must not live anywhere near the south.

Because I drive near the University of Alabama almost every day and there literally are Confederate flags on a huge number of vehicles, baseball caps and flagpoles in this city. Lots of these people wearing it are young college students. And I see it in every southern state I drive through. In fact, I just returned from a trip to Mississippi where there was a Confederate shop selling flags, etc. and they had the largest Battle flag flying overhead I have ever seen in my life...could see it about 2 miles away.

While you may not like the flag and its display it is a BIG DEAL to white people in the south as evidenced by their continued display of it. So until they ban it like the Nazi symbol they are going to wear it. And all Dean has done is acknowledge it is a symbol of white guys in the south. Kind of like acknowledging Starbucks drinkers as people in Seattle. Or identifying a constituency of "soccer moms."

Of course the flag has it's share of controversy and historical meaning and Starbucks doesn't. But if you can't simply understand that the flag is as prevalent down here as Roll Tide in this state then you are much less informed than Dean about which symbols people wear here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

72. ok...then he should have said "roll tide" stickers on their bumpers

the line would have worked and we'd be talking about healthcare instead of his perceived racism. would you agree that would have been a wiser selection?

[Hep]

79. Eh?

Because everyone in the south loves Bama? What in the world are you talking about?

[Ripley]

80. No. Pick-up trucks and confederate flags are big here.

Whereas Roll Tide would be another local cultural phenom, it would only cover Alabama, not the south as a whole.

The only people talking about his "perceived racism" are the guys he's beating in the polls. He didn't just say this recently either. Why do you blame him for what other's are twisting into an issue?

[TLM]

59. You just used the term Confederate flag in your post...

and posted a picture of the flag in that little comic... so clearly by your standard for attacking Dean you are both ignorant and anti-black.

Since what is said about it doesn't matter, just the simple fact the term was used is all it takes, then you fit the bill as well, do you not?

[liberalcapitalist]

29. Dean/ Clark, Clark/ Dean ticket

n/t

[LEW]

32. Clark/Edwards - Edwards/Clark

n/t

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

66. I like Edwards better than Dean, BUT

The general election will be a disaster if Dean's people are not rewarded for the amazing job of organizing and fundraising. Brushing them off would do serious, long term damage to the party.

[Clark Can WIN]

85. Serious

but I doubt long term.

[robsul82]

39. During tonight's Rock the Vote debate, I can so see...

...something happening that I remembered took place in my high school, where the frontrunner takes his buddy, the guy in second, and said in this weird voice, "OK, all the frontrunners are gonna stand over HERE, and all you losers can stand over THERE. How'boutdat?!?"

Later.

RJS

[Fleshdancer]

42. I've noticed

I can't speak for all Deaniacs, but there is a special place in my heart for Wes Clark.

I wish Dean was as tactful as Clark is...Dean's heart is in the right place, he just doesn't express it very well sometimes. I would love to see those two on the same ticket, but with Graham not running for Senate again, I'm wondering if he's going after the VP position.

[Ripley]

44. Hey, I didn't think about that...Graham for VP, not bad.

And I agree Gloria, Dean doesn't always express himself very well. But I'll take that human flaw over a tired, over-used, long-winded robotic response that most of the other Dems use, any day.

Which do you prefer an honest person or someone who lies but makes it sound good?

[teryang]

48. The two most qualified for VP

...are Graham and Clark. I prefer Clark in this position if he is not the presidential candidate. If Clark were the presidential candidate the critical need for a national security/intelligence expert in the number two spot is not there and almost any of the other candidates would be suitable as VP as long as they brought enough votes in. I would completely distrust Lieberman in the number two spot. I think he would work to undermine the democratic President and try to block any changes in foreign policy. As president he would be a complete diaster.

Kerry could do the number two spot, but I don't think he has the ability to control the national security establishment (Without help from Graham or Clark). I think that Dean would be undermined as well without a strong defense/intelligence insider at the VP office.

IMHO

[TLM]

61. If Clark was VP....

I doubt Dean would make it through his first term without an "accident."

[Renew Deal]

82. Would Dean pee in his sleep?

What kind of "accident"?

[Rowdyboy]

49. I'm really sorry this degenerated

into a flamefest between my two favorite candidates. That was certainly not my purpose in starting this thread and I regret seeing either of these men attacked.

[RetroLounge]

52. Thank you, I agree and liked your post

Others are just pile-on cluster-fuck loving DU'ers...

[bearfartinthewoods]

60. Wes Clark has chosen not to indulge ...you are kidding i hope

Wes Clark was act one in the campaign. he failed in his mission.

[Clark Can WIN]

63. I too appreciate the fact

That he has chosen not to go Lieberman on the other candidates. It's fine to point out differences in stands on the issues WHEN IT IS DONE ACCURATELY AND RESPECTFULLY. But bashing sucks.

[veganwitch]

69. i dont think dean is racist...

i just dont think he is sincere about race issues.

i dont think hes sincere about a lot of things, but thats just me.

[LoZoccolo]

83. Yes. I like Clark as well as Dean.

I would be happy to call either one of them "president". Really the only reservation I had about Clark was whether or not he could do well /campaigning/ (I'm sure he could lead well), but I must say he's been looking good at that so far.

The "War Vote Four", however, are pretty much beyond consideration after trying to profit from a twisted rendering of you-know-who's statement about you-know-what.

On edit: that having been said, I'm would still be an ABB'er.