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[Name removed]

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[Booberdawg]

1. I don't really care

It's a war zone. They could have surrendered months ago if they were serious, but I don't beleive that. They needed killin'

[rjbcar27]

3. Indeed.

[sfecap]

4. "They needed killin'"??

Nice.

I take it that you agree with the Iraqis that killed two Americans today that "they needed killin'", too?

[IADEMO2004]

15. Please

Don't use the Dean icon with that lame post.

[Name removed]

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[sfecap]

17. OK, thanks for telling me that.

I'm sorry, I didn't notice the icon monitor title next to your name.

[ShaneGR]

19. Please refrain from comparing our troops to the Saddam boys

please

[leesa]

23. "Our Boys" are unfortunately the aggressors and the bad guys in this

situation. It's not their fault, but that's the way it is.

[sfecap]

25. I am not doing that. Our troops are getting picked off

daily because someone thinks "they need killing".

It is not right on either side.

The point being we need to set the example, or it will continue. What are we showing the populace there when 200 soldiers kill 4 people?

[Name removed]

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[DisgustipatedinCA]

35. Watch your mouth, boy

Do you hear me? Calling people idiot and bonehead isn't a real good way to get started here. I won't even go into the neanderthal points you're attempting to make, since they're clearly subhuman and it would be a waste of my time.

Keep your tone a little more respectful toward other members or get the fuck out.

Welcome to Democratic Underground.

[Booberdawg]

37. And such a fine example you are!

And by the way, who made you the hall monitor?

[Booberdawg]

30. Ask a stupid question

then you deserve the response you got

[sfecap]

31. Well, I guess the same can be said for

a stupid statement, huh? :-)

[OneTwentyoNine]

44. Why? I think his post about Americans made damn good sense....n/t

...

[Name removed]

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[w13rd0]

7. The 'information minister' tried for a month or two...

...to surrender to no avail. It's not outside reason that they wanted to surrender and we killed them anyway. They could have told us where the WMD were...

But that's not really important now, right?

Whatever. Bush is still an opportunistic liar, and Saddam and his sons were still punks. Nothing has changed to make either untrue over the past week or two...

[quilp]

8. We look like one mafia family fighting another mafia family!

The Republican jubilation over the death of these men is totally inapropriate in a civilized government. The Iraqi people, of course, are entitled to celebrate it anyhow they please.

[radwriter0555]

11. Why did they need killing?

Not one iota of info on how evil hussein was has turned out to be true, so why is the BS about the sons supposed to be true?

There hasn't been one single mass grave post-dating 1992 found yet. My research shows that the stories about hussein's tortures and executions is a bunch of lies. I can't find ANYTHING to back the stories up.

So what's to say the stories about the sons are true too?

CONSIDER THE SOURCE. It sure isn't the iraqis. They aren't exactly cheering in the streets over this. Wierd, eh?

[mrfrapp]

24. Okay, I'll bite.

"My research shows that the stories about hussein's tortures and executions is a bunch of lies. I can't find ANYTHING to back the stories up."

Could you tell us more about your research; and also the sources so we can verify them for ourselves.

[radwriter0555]

29. Simple, go find a single story on any mass graves found by the US

soldiers to date, in Iraq.

Then take note that in each story, each mass grave is referenced BEFORE 1992.

Not one single 'mass grave' has been found inhabited by the alleged victims of husseins alleged torture since 1992.

AND all the graves found are the result of uprisings, i.e., battles, warring factions. NOT prison, torture or any of the myths that are swirling.

There is no evidence whatsoever to back up the stories of the hussein families alleged torture camps, rape camps, etc.

The SOLE account I COULD find was from a fella who's alleged 'torture' outlined treatment, frankly BETTER than the afghani hostages being imprisoned on Guantanamo Bay.

Therefore, the lack of information to back up the allegetions of how husseins was so evil leads me to believe it's all a pack of lies.

Even AI doesn't have credible information, merely repeating the 'info' of the bush admin's henchmen.

So tell me why I should believe all the stories, since the sources all lead back to the bush administration....

[tomp]

32. yeah, but what about the incuabtor babies!

anyone who believes any info from the govt is a fool.

[mrfrapp]

41. Not convinced

"So tell me why I should believe all the stories, since the sources all lead back to the bush administration...."

I do tend to agree with your general point -- that much of the anti-Hussein rhetoric is bogus or exagerated -- but Hussein and his spawn have been described as tyrants for decades by many different people with a variety of axes to grind. It's not a concept invented by a Bush regime, past or present.


"The SOLE account I COULD find was from a fella who's alleged 'torture' outlined treatment, frankly BETTER than the afghani hostages being imprisoned on Guantanamo Bay."

I've not seen that. Do you have a link?

[ArkDem]

50. The BBC reported that they celebrated all night

.

[leesa]

21. Go back to the ranch. War's over remember.

Maybe we needed to hear what they had to say about the Bush Crime Family even more.

[Name removed]

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[LiberalLibra]

39. 'They needed killin'??? Are you serious?? I could deal with & even agree..

....if you said "needed capturing", "needed imprisoned", "needed to be tried by Iraqi people for mass murder" BUT....'NEEDED KILLIN'??? Isn't that for either the Iraqi people or the UN to decide???

[IndianaGreen]

54. I will remind you of that the next time a GI is captured

Have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention, or is that relevant at all?

[Jivenwail]

2. If they did murder them to keep them quiet

then we are no better than Sadaam himself. Afterall, is that not what he did? Murder his enemies to shut them up, to get them out of the way? This whole thing is nothing but an assasination, plain and simple - if it's true at all.

I am so disgusted by the way the media is hyping this as some great US victory. That these 2 dead men (and that of a young boy) bring some kind of justification for the barbarism of this entire illegal invasion. It's scary to know just what bushco is capable of doing. Silencing their critics, outing those that disobey, threatening those that attempt to speak out and now murdering. What the hell is next? I shudder to think.

[lanlady]

6. then why did they fight 200 soldiers for 5 hours?

I doubt very much either of these guys would have given himself up.

[GOPisEvil]

9. Have you considered...

...that they offered to surrender to the troops that showed up, but their offer was rejected because of what they know about the time when Iraq was a "friend" to the US?

:tinfoilhat: to be sure, but you never know!

[sfecap]

10. Who said they did?

Do you not think that 200 soldiers counldn't have taken 4 people alive?

Give me a break!

It's ironic that nobody here believes a wordthe chimp and co say, but completely buy this story.

This was an execution. Plain and simple. No trial, no jury.

Is this the "rule of law" that we are teaching to the newly "liberated" Iraqis?

[markus]

13. Not a chance

NPR reported a fire fight that lasted hours, for 200 guys to take out four. I think they wanted them alive, as they are desperate for intelligence that will somehow vindicate the invasion of Iraq.

But these guys are probably as bad as they have been described. There's something about the kids of tyrants that just produces very sick people.

Think about Baby Doc, or the son of the fellow who ran Santa Domingo (name escapes me at the moment). Or the Korean dynasty, which seems even less in touch with reality.

[sfecap]

18. If they wanted them alive...

..they could have had them alive.

You're telling me that 200 soldiers couldn't take 4 people alive? WTF? And one of those people was in a wheelchair, and one was a teenager?

If 200 soldiers can't capture 4 people, then we are in very deep shit...

[sfecap]

20. Markus, for the record...

I am not debating whether these guys were monsters...I have grave reservations as to the way this went down and why.

Have we now become the "enemy"?

[buddhamama]

14. my thoughts exactly,sfecap

this story does not pass the smell test.

facing charges in front of a criminal court is where they should be.

[gottaB]

12. They died with their boots on

Forgive me the Hollywood cowboy schtick, but afaik these fellows died with their boots on. Perhaps at some point they "mulled" surrendering, but in they end they went down in a gunfight.

That's not murder. Not by a long shot.

[Gin]

22. Assuming it was them

gin

[roguevalley]

26. This isn't America.

First, 'pre-emptive' wars of aggression and now
assassination. So much for moral high ground. It
doesn't matter what they did. They needed busted
and tried. As criminals. Just like Hitler if we
could have gotten HIS rotten ass. Doing this
makes us a banana republic. Period.

RV, remembering when we were a good country,
not a fucked up one.

[slackmaster]

27. If they really wanted to surrender they could have called the press

They could easily have appeared on Al Jazeera or CNN and told the world they wanted to surrender on live TV.

I think they were captured several weeks ago and held by the Brits or US troops until an auspicious moment for a dramatic gunfight.

[theboss]

28. Frankly . . .

This reminds me of the Dillenger shoot-out. I'm not going to lose any sleep over a violation of these monsters' rights. They're dead and I am glad.

Doesn't make the war right.

Doesn't make the aftermath any better.

But it is possible for some good fruit to be borne of the poisoned tree, I guess.

[Michael Daniels]

34. They could have surrendered a long time ago

It's not like they didn't know where to find an army unit.

Sorry, I'm not going to get upset over the death of two people who have had deluxe suites reserved for them in hell for a long time now.

I'm only sorry that the Iraqis didn't have a chance to personally administer the death blows.

[Name removed]

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[realFedUp]

40. It would have been advantageous to take them alive

Now those would have been cards to deal with.

[pansypoo53219]

42. yes

and for a MODERN ARMY, it should have been DOABLE.

WHY did they have to be killed??? why did the army kill rather than capture?
gee , where is you dad? guess they can't ask them that now can they. this looks like a cover up because they would say that the DID NOT HAVE WMD.

[Shrek]

43. It's hard to capture people who are shooting at you!

Yes, the 200 U.S. troops might have eventually succeeded in capturing these guys alive. But at what cost? They're not bulletproof; there's no way to walk through a hail of gunfire unscathed.

Getting them alive isn't worth the life of even one U.S. soldier.

[Name removed]

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[Shrek]

48. Of course, but it would have been hazardous.

It's not like they were inside, hiding behind barricaded doorways, waiting to be starved out. They were actively engaging U.S. troops, who had no choice other than to return fire.

Besides that, a long siege might have given them plenty of opportunity to destroy documents, cell phones, and other intelligence. If that stuff is still intact then the information windfall could be substantial.

[Mika]

47. We have many types of non lethal gasses to knock them out

And even if the gasses proved to be lethal (like the case in Russia) then at least there would be easily identifiable bodies.

[mrfrapp]

53. Illegal.

"We have many types of non lethal gasses to knock them out"

As I've said in another thread, that's a form of chemical warfare, which is illegal, and I doubt the WH could be bothered to justify that at present.

[sfecap]

49. Give me a break....

...the troops could have waited them out.

They could have tear gassed them.

C'mon...200 troops cannot capture 4 people, one of which was in a wheelchair, and another a 14 year old?

I'm speechless here....

[Freddie Stubbs]

46. None of those said that they agreed to surrender

One of them said that Uday wanted to know what charges would be brought against him. I don suppose that he was interested in surrender unless he had guarentees that he would not be tried for all of the vile crimes which he had committed.

[TNOE]

51. Maybe this has been said on one of the other threads

but I find it very hard to believe Saddam would not have taken his sons where ever he is - and I doubt very seriously he is still in Iraq. I have serious doubts over this whole story.

[Nazgul35]

52. sigh....

I remember a time when this country use to send people who committed crimes against humanity to court to face justice in front of humanity. The victims of this regime will never have their day in court...to be able to stand in the witness stand and point a finger and say "that monster killed my family..."

I also remember a time when we use to exercise greater thought about the implications of our actions....Sadam....Osama....the torture twins mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things...people are motivated to support these thugs because their lives have become so twisted and desparate that the only thing they have left is to stirke out....has killing Sadam's sons removed these feelings? Are we safer now? If we kill Osama, do we pat ourselves on the back, have the president land the space shuttle on the moon and carve mission accomplished on its' surface while we all go happily back to the mall?

We need to consider the cause of these problems, seek to remove them...unlike the current adminsitration that only looks for the apperance of action without providing any substance...after all, when the sh*t hits the fan...they'll all be living in their high priced gated communities.