Hidden Meaning in Clinton's "Pardoning" of Bush?

[BurtWorm]

Note that Clinton did not say Bush was right. He said Bush made a mistake. He did not say the war was right. He said the first priority is to clean up after the war and account for the missing stocks of chemical and biological weapons.

"...I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say, 'You got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions.'"

Note that Clinton brings the UN front and center. Recall that Bush did not wait for the UN to give the greenlight to the war. Is Clinton excusing Bush's drive to war or is he reminding people of the path Bush actually took?

"People can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks of biological and chemical weapons."


Note that Clinton brings up Afghanistan, of all places. (Remember Afghanistan?) Note too that Clinton focuses like a laser beam on the unaccounted for stocks of bio-chem weapons. Where are they? Asking this question could and should refocus the inquiries on the CIA warning last year that Saddam's defeat could be more dangerous than his containment because it could disperse the unaccounted for stocks.

[liberalnurse]

1. Excellent assessment.

We need to pay attention and not be superficial or jump to a hasty conclusion. He is not the enemy...... He has paid a bitter price at the hands of the neocons....he has not forgotten.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

27. I am NOT a Clinton hater

unlike some of the fairweather Dems here.

[caledesi]

2. Thank you! Thank you!

Excellent assessment of Clinton. I was sitting here thinking of what to post aout Clinton's comments last night, because I love this man.

The only thing I could come up with is that Clinton is ALWAYS 3 steps ahead of everyone, that's why the repugs hated him so much.

Another thing is that he is probably the best politician of our time, so why would he say these things? Well, you explained why beautifully and where the REAL emphasis was. Clinton is political and doesn't like to bad-mouth anyone; he just doesn't do it.

He gave these hints like you mentioned..."unaccounted for stocks." - makes you think, hmmm yeah Saddam could be more dangerous, gee * and the thugs did a lousy job...hmmm

Clinton is smart; never forget that.

[Qutzupalotl]

3. Also worth noting

Clinton hates negative campaigning, having been the subject of the politics of personal destruction.

Whenever he speaks, his criticism is mild and always followed by constructive solutions.

I hope this cycle, we'll "Be Like Bill" and always pair our attack ads with what we plan to do with the same problems when we're in office.

[swinney]

19. CLINTON ONE OF ALL TIME GREAT MEN.-READ COMMENTS ON HIM.

1. HE DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO HATE--DAVID MARANISS BIOGRAPHER
2. HE HOLDS NO PREJUDICES.
3. HE HAS ALWAYS LOVED ALL PEOPLE. NO PREFERENCES. ALL.
4. HE HAS BEEN A HARD WORKER WHO NEVER GRIPES ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT THE TASK.
5. HE NEVER BRAGS. EVER HEAR HIM TALK OF HELPING HIS MOM GET HIM THROUGH COLLEGE BY HIS WORKING TWO JOBS AT GEORGETOWN U AND THREE JOBS AT YALE U.?
6. NOTE HOW HE TOLD HIS STAFF DURING CAMPAIGNS TO NEVER ATTACK THE PERSON JUST IDEAS. COMPARE TO BUSH FAMILY TACTICS.
7.BILLY GRAHAM "I BELIEVE BILL CLINTON HAS A SINCERE DESIRE IN HIS HEART TO SERVE GOD".
8. BILL CLINTON'S CHARISMA AND CARING FOR OTHERS IS REAL. HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN LIKE THAT. JAMES MCDOUGAL.
9.HE IS THE MOST OPTIMISTIC AND GREGARIOUS PERSON I HAVE EVER KNOWN OR HEARD ABOUT. HE LIKES PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE, WITH NO PETTINESS OR PREFERENCES. HRC
10. I WILL REPEAT IT FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME THAT BILL CLINTON IS NO CROOK. YOU MAY DISAGREE WITH HIM BUT HE DOES NOT HOLD IT AGAINST YOU. HE HAS NO INTEREST IN FINANCIAL THINGS. JOHN BRUMMITT-EDITOR OF REPUG ARK DEMO GAZ.
11. HE DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO HATE. HE DOES NOT HAVE A MEAN BONE IN HIS BODY. DAVID MARANISS BIOGRAPHER
12. I HAVE KNOWN BILL CLINTON FOR MANY YEARS AND WHAT I AM ABOUT TO SAY WILL GIVE STOMACH PAINS TO SOME REPUBLICANS. BILL CLINTON HAS A GOOD HEART. HE TRULY WANTS TO DO GOOD. HE WILL DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR AMERICA THE SAME AS HE DID FOR ARKANSAS. HE IS THE GREATEST CAMPAIGNER IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA AND IS BLESSED WITH GREAT CHARISMA. REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR HUCKABEE OF ARKANSAS.

I MUST STOP-- I HAVE A LIST OF 53 SUCH COMMENTS ON A GREAT HUMAN BEING.

I IDOLIZE BILL CLINTON.
clarence swinney burlington nc [e-mail]

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. 1 and 11 are the same

but we get the point! :) Thanks!

[aquart]

38. I like him, too, dear.

Is the hysteria over now?

[Missy Vixen]

48. Thank you, Clarence

I love Bill Clinton, too.

I realize that he's human, and has made mistakes. At the same time, I believe that, like so many of those whose quotes are above, history will show him as one of our greatest Presidents, and the father of an outstanding future President as well ;-).

Julie

[GreenArrow]

4. Depends on what the meaning of what the meaning of is is

"Main Entry: 2 mistake
Function: noun
Date: 1638
1 : a misunderstanding of the meaning or implication of something
2 : a wrong action or statement proceeding from faulty judgment, inadequate knowledge, or inattention


Main Entry: 3lie
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): lied; ly·ing /'lI-i/
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English lEogan; akin to Old High German liogan to lie, Old Church Slavonic lugati
Date: before 12th century
intransitive senses
1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
2 : to create a false or misleading impression
transitive senses : to bring about by telling lies <lied his way out of trouble>"

There is no way to confuse the two.

[LiberalLibra]

5. Thank You!!!! Someone FINALLY "Get's It"

:bounce: :dem:

[dbt]

6. Ah, but it's so much easier just to BASH Clinton!

Rather than looking for the meaning inside what he says, we behave just like the Dittoheads who start screaming whenever Rush gives them the cue. We'd rather have our ill-formed opinions expressed instantly than take the time to figure it out for ourselves. In short, we are lemmings, too.

It reminds me of the old fable about the six blind men who went to look at the elephant.

:eyes:
dbt

[buddhamama]

8. "...looking for the meaning inside what he says"

this is interpretation.
ill-formed opinions--would that be opinions that don't match your interpretation?

[diplomats]

12. I just think we need to see how this plays out

eom

[sangha]

31. No, ill-informed interpretations

are those that result from those who demand that a politicians words be interpreted literally, and only literally, just as the religious fundamentalists demand that the Bible be interpreted literally, and only literally.

[Pepperbelly]

34. while you and I frequently agree on some matters ...

in this instance, I think what dbt alluded to was not so much people of differing opinions as much as noting how often people will jump to very hasty conclusions and pretend to be outraged or hell, actually BE outraged when political leaders don't jump immediately to the same conclusion and start screaming it on tv at every opportunity.

Sometimes, the opinions here form far ahead of the facts and it would probably benefit us all to refrain from making quick judgements based on ideology rather than allowing the facts to play out a bit so we can actually know what happened.

:shrug:

[CWebster]

7. No, it is simpler than that

In order to cover his own liability, he has to frame it as a "mistake" for Bush--even if Bush and co exploited the the situation intentionally.

[diplomats]

9. "Mistake" does not have good connotations

no matter how you slice it.

[GreenArrow]

11. no it doesn't

and lied through his teeth has even worse implications.

[CWebster]

13. Right, like "accident"

Suggesting faultless, forgivable.

[BurtWorm]

10. Why are the Greens in this thread only focussing on the word "mistake?"

The mistake he's referring to is the inclusion of discredited information in the SOTU, which is a minor, minor, minor infraction--in fact just one of a vast array of symptoms with what was wrong with the Bushist drive to war. There is a shadow of doubt about whether or not the Bushists intentionally lied with those 16 words. I think they did. You think they did. Everyone on this board thinks they did. But this was only one instance of the Bushists sexing up the "evidence," and I doubt it's even the most egregious one. Perhaps Clinton was warning Democrats not to put all their eggs in the "16 words" basket.

[CWebster]

16. The" mistake" is symbolic

of all the deception. Clinton's dismissal was rather broad to include Dems in the unfortunate position of not being able to call Bush out since they are a party to the same deception.

[BurtWorm]

17. Do you believe that a Dem would have taken Bush's road to this war?

Would they have built a coalition of micronesian island republics and ignored the UN, broken up NATO, shat on the real allies? I don't think so. So I think it's wrong, off-base, to say that Dems share in the deception that led to this war. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

[CWebster]

20. There was constant bombing and

punitive sanctions carried out under Clinton and the UN inspectors were charged with spying and then pulled out prior to a bombing campaign--not expelled by Saddam.

Under a Democrat.

[Zero Gravitas]

21. Good point

The "16 words" are just a minor part of the argument for invasion and occupation. Focusing on this one issue would be a mistake, the real problem is so much wider than that one statement.

[Pallas180]

14. It was stupid of Big Dog. Too subtle for most Americans who will

take it as agreement with the dummy.

Wish Big Dog had kept his mouth shut this time.

My assessment is that he was protecting Tony Blair in that
answer.

[berry]

29. I, too, thought of Tony first as a possible reason for this.

Also, for people who believe that Clinton is supporting Bush on the intel flap--you might want to look at a thread about how Clinton was fed a lot of faulty intel from the same PNAC crowd, Rummy being first among them. (This thread is chock-full of interesting stuff.)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=58334&mesg_id=58334&page=6

Oh, I also want to say that because I didn't always agree with Clinton on foreign policy, I was too quick to take this statement at face value and be disappointed. So I greatly appreciate the alternate readings offered here. Just now, I'm following the "wait and see" advice offered by one of the posters.

[DrBB]

15. Nice parsing, but I haven't noticed that "hidden meanings"

...or subtle political positioning/posturing have had such a remarkable record against Republican thuggery of late.

We're trying to make a dent in the supine, Fox-addled, Kobe-Bryant-distracted brains of an American public that makes Homer Simpson look like Adlai Stevenson. Subtlety don't cut it. Great huge whacking sledge hammers are what our enemies have been using, to remarkably good effect, and if we don't start doing the same we're going to subtle outselves right into a graveyard.

[BurtWorm]

18. Well we can't all use sledgehammers.

Some have to use scalpels or switchblades.

One hidden meaning I didn't discuss above: Dems are vastly smarter, more human, more humane, more reassuring than the Bushists could ever hope to be.

[TacticalPeek]

22. OurCountryIsBetterThanThis

Look where the sledgehammer got Cheney et al.

For castration, a knife is better...and that's just what WJC did to 'em.

Next shoe, please...

[bunnyhop]

23. But the press is portraying this as clinton agreeing with bush

Clinton should have seen this would happen. Dems have to learn that they can't afford to say anything good about bush because that will then be the only part of their comments that is quoted. Clinton is an idiot.

[DrBB]

25. Exactly. Who is the AUDIENCE for this subtle approach

...if it exists? The average Cheetos-scarfing brain-damaged Fox viewer--even most middle of the road voters--will simply get that "Even that scoundrel Clinton doesn't think Our Wonderful President did anything wrong."

So who's supposed to be the audience for this? Dem voters? Not hardly the people we need to convince. It's all very well to say he was implying something less supportive than the face value of his words implied, but who did he think was going to pick up that message, and why would it help?

[dansolo]

39. So what?

Why does everyone believe that the Democrats will just pack up because of a statement by Clinton? If that were to happen, then the problem really lies with the Democrats. Clinton's statements, even if you look at them in the worst possible light, should have no effect on the rest of the Democrats, and if it did, then they never had the courage to stand up to Bush in the first place. Clinton is not the leader of the Democratic party. And shouldn't the real complaints be directed at Tom Daschle, who has been completely silent on the issue? Unlike Clinton, he actually is a Democratic leader.

[BurtWorm]

46. The media hate Clinton. They're beginning to hate Bush.

It's preposterous to think they're going to suddenly forgive Bush for lying--even if that was what Clinton was suggesting they do, which he wasn't--on Clinton's say so.

[peace4all]

24. too subtle for my taste

I've read the whole thing. It depressed me. He wasn't much help before the war either. Dean has shown that standing up and not pulling punches is what people respond to. Hearing Clinton's words feels more like
getting punched in the stomach for me.

[BurtWorm]

26. Now why would it feel like getting punched to you?

Were you expecting the 16 words scandal to do the whole job of breaking up the Bushists?

Read dailyhowler.com for a lucid-eyed, if initially upsetting explanation of why that wouldn't happen.

And remember, those 16 words are just at the very surface of a deep, deep wound.

[peace4all]

33. Why?

because I and so many others have worked ourselves ragged for months on end trying to make people aware of the deliberate deceptions perpetuated by this administration. Bush admitting he made a "mistake" is a complete distraction from the truth.
I feel like a few words from Clinton have the potential to undermine so much us lowly little people are trying to do. I wish he had said nothing. Perhaps he's really just covering his own ass, I don't know.. but IMO, he hasn't helped, not before the war, not now.

[BurtWorm]

45. One comment from Clinton is not going to derail the ditch-Bush train

I don't see anyone making a big deal out of except here at DU.

[agingdem]

28. Clinton!

Can you just imagine the Bushies reaction to Clinton,the Republican Nemisis,patting Bush's hollow head and saying "Now, now, you big bad Dems, Georgie's mistake is understandable." Given Bush's lack of intellect and curiousity plus his inability to articulate I'd say Bill nailed it. Perfect!

[imhotep]

30. you fools are projecting.

Clinton IS in agreement with Bush.
Calling Bush's intentional lie a "mistake" is Clinton's disgusting way of trying to justify his own behavior while president. Why do some people worship these politicians when they are all liars?

[NNN0LHI]

40. Who you calling a fool? n/t

[BurtWorm]

42. Point out where in his remarks he's in agreement with Bush

I don't see it.

[RichM]

32. It shows that Clinton is a conservative Republican in all but name.

It shows that Clinton is not an opponent of Bush, but rather, leaps to his defense when the Shrubster gets in hot water. It shows that the great hero of the Democratic Party behaves precisely like a Bush apologist, when given the chance to weigh on the issue of a president lying in the SOTU to whip up fervor for imperialist war.

In brief, it shows that the Democratic Party is nothing but a submissive subsidiary of the Republican Party, which will grovel, carry water, defend, & apologize for Republican policy, no matter how vile that policy.

[w4rma]

41. You know why folks are dismissing your POV, RichM?

Because you try to paint the WHOLE Democratic Party as being the same or in league with or similar to the Republican Party.

You might try focusing on the *specific* parts of the Democratic Party that need to have a light shined on, instead of trying to paint all of DU as Republicans or local Democratic officals as Republican moles, or the Progressive Caucus as a bunch of Republican deep cover agents.

C'mon, RichM. Enough with the rants about why we need to toss the baby out along with the bathwater.

[BurtWorm]

43. You're hysterical and you're exaggerating

I don't see any leaping or defense. I hear someone who knows about the whole Iraq picture--more than you or I do--saying the 16 words were a mistake. But he also said some other things that sound like a less than glowing report on the Bush boy's handling of the situation. See the original post in this thread for details.

[Lisa]

35. a co-worker of mine used a similar strategy ...

If someone really annoyed her, she'd act all sweet and innocent, and say (in an apparently sympathetic tone), "Oh that's okay, you don't have to apologize. I know you've been under a lot of stress lately. But don't worry -- we'll all be glad to help out, just say when!" (big smile) Usually within earshot of other people.

It gave the impression that a) she was taking the high road while her detractor was just being unprofessional; and b) the detractor was screwing up on the job.

Usually the person hadn't made any major messes (sort of crossing her, that is) -- and certainly hadn't even thought of apologizing for anything! But it was enough to plant a seed of doubt, and pretty soon the detractor would make a mistake, and my co-worker would be all smiles (as she came to the rescue, of course).

I was glad that I never got on her wrong side during the time I was there, because it was darned near impossible to accuse her of anything (other than "being nice"?) and yet she managed to make life uncomfortable for anyone unwise enough to tangle with her.

[BurtWorm]

44. I think that's Clinton's game here, too.

Little did he know a bunch of hot-headed lefties with itchy trigger fingers were going to blow this way the fuck out of proportion by taking him literally. (Although if you take him literally, there's not much to comfort the Bush boy there.)

[Dont B bush N Me]

36. What Bush and cabal did was not a mistake. I know a lie when I hear one.

Come on Bill just because you felt the need to kiss Doles ass last night doesn't mean that as long as you were down there you had to kiss the Liar and Thief Bushies butt too.

[okieinpain]

47. to use clinton, bush will have to admit he made a mistake

.