America: Fast becoming an economic Banana Republic. What gives?

[JanMichael]

The expectations of many Americans today are radically different from 30 years or even 20 years ago. These people, anywhere from 50-65% (Based on income and educational attainment) have little faith (or should have little faith) in both employers and Government, they have little faith in Pensions and Job Security. Why is this?

Many reasons I suppose. Perhaps the dramatic change in the American Working Population over the last 30 years is a big reason. In the 50’s Union membership was around 35%, enough to gain some parity within the Economy. Now it’s about 12%, although I believe last year was the greatest increase in new members in 30 years, and businesses don’t hesitate now to push decreases in Benefits and Wages. The leverage has
been severely diminished.

Why would that matter? Mainly because the 50’s-mid 70’s gave the “average” worker the ability to maintain a single paycheck household with enough income and benefits; They could send their kids to college. This is primarily because some 40% of American workers
were Manufacturing something, anything. Manufacturing firms are simply easier to collective bargain with. So the spouse and children (Teens) didn’t have to work. Since the decline of organized labor, and Manufacturing (I believe only 10% are making any tangible consumer products these days), this has changed that relationship. More women
and teens entered the workforce and they, being supplemental household income, were able to work for less per hour and rely on the chief wage earners employer’s benefits, like health insurance, to cover them. This is the system where Walmart became the #1 US employer, replacing General Motors.

For one the manufacturing jobs are going, going, gone as far as supporting the middle class. Sure the outsourcing started in the 70’s, increased in the 80’s, but reached a fevered pitch with NAFTA (and the soon to whollop us over the head the FTAA). First the jobs left for Mexico, now the jobs in Mexico are going to China. India? Sure enough. Worse yet state universities are becoming price prohibitive for many of the interested lower income students, many states are also cutting back on financial aid, and increases of 14% across the board are not helping: http://www.inform.umd.edu/News/Diamondback/archives/2003/10/28/news2.html

This new unbalanced employee/owner relationship is creating a two tier system. In my opinion the primary difference in these two tiers is simple, a college degree.

What’s left that can’t be outsourced for the HS Graduate? Restaurants, Retail (Walmart), Construction (Florida), Sales (Some great-Most Aren’t), Bars, some Local Government work, Child Care workers, Elder Care workers, hospitals, etcetera. These are all proximity safe jobs, they can’t be taken away so easily. They also pay less on average than the old manufacturing jobs and often have fewer benefits like Healthcare/Pensions (Some do, there are some responsible companies out there, but not on the whole...especially with Walmart employing 900,000 people.).

The university graduates/professionals have an entirely different outlook. Professional services like Accounting are going nowhere, same with Engineering, Medicine, managing other people’s money, Marketing to the masses, managing the retail/service companies, most professional fields are safe as well. Basically if you’re working off your degree, or secured a profession due to a degree, you’re safe. This doesn’t include all Tech jobs though, they can be outsourced, except ones that require full knowledge of the work/target environment. Once again anomalies abound but for the most part it stands.

That’s the new paradigm (I love mispronouncing that word) which is chiefly defined by those with, and without, an “education”. I will state again that there are always anomalies so spare me the grief.

As of March 2002: 26.7% of American adults over 25 had a Bachelor's degree or more.

Is it reasonable to suggest that with graduates that fail, and non-graduates that excel, that the percentage of top tier workers will be around 30-35%?

That leaves a whole lot of the “bottom” tier.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/000818.html

“Adults age 18 and over with a bachelor's degree earned an average of
$50,623 a year in 2001, while those with a high school diploma earned
$26,795 and those without a high school diploma averaged $18,793. Advanced degree-holders made an average of $72,869 in 2001.”

2:1 in income for the graduates. 2:1 in numbers for those without. This doesn’t even take into account the CEO to worker ratio: “In 1970, the average CEO made 41 times what the average manufacturing worker made. In 1997, according to Business Week magazine, this ratio was 326 to one.” http://www.house.gov/sabo/ie.htm

Lastly the bottom tier’s situation is only going to deteriorate. Healthcare and other benefits will disappear as “Competition” with monopolistic piranhas like Walmart kill the companies that want desperately to be good to their employees. Housing costs are skyrocketing http://www.nlihc.org/oor2003/ and more Regressive Taxation will be needed to fund society with the Progressive Tax system getting crashed by the lunatics in DC.

Can this possibly last very long? I doubt it. Something will have to give.

[JanMichael]

1. Robert Reich touched on these ideas today.

Out of curiousity: Did he support NAFTA?

[JanMichael]

2. This thread couldn't suck THAT badly!?

Ouch.

[QC]

3. It's an excellent thread.

And I know how you feel, having tried to bring up this same topic before, only to watch the thread sink like a rock. I might just be getting nostalgic for those distant, misty times of oh, I dunno, a year ago, but it seems like we used to have a lot of substantive discussions here. Now only flamewars attract response.

[JanMichael]

4. Maybe I should've said that Dean/Clark supports this mess.

And one of them is really a Rove plant.

Or planting a Rove.

I know how you feel!

Thanks:-)

I'm going to bed...

[QC]

5. That would have done it!

[BiggJawn]

7. No, it didn't suck, just don't have anything to add.

I'm appreciative of the thread. I used to work in manufacturing, made DAMN decent money for a high-school graduate. I have a 2-year degree and over 20 year's experience in my craft. My bro is a HS grad, been working for Ford for almost 20 years, and makes almost 3X what I do.

[cryofan]

6. good thread....I have pertinent URLs that speak to these questions

Read 'em and weep:


This first one is the best:
http://www.american-pictures.com/english/racism/articles/welfare.htm

Here are the rest:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Economics/AmericanProsperityMyth.html

http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/SocialDemocracy.htm
http://www.geocities.com/kew1788/TakeBackNation.htm

http://maxspeak.org/gm/archives/00000791.html

http://geocities.com/aufheben2/stc_intro

http://faculty.insead.fr/fatas/econ/Articles/Chasing%20the%20Leader.htm

http://post.economics.harvard.edu/hier/2001papers/HIER1933.pdf

[Armstead]

8. Yer absolutely correct

It is mind-boggling why the American people of all stripes have not gotten indignant about what has heppened over the last 20 years.

I'm old enouigh to have seen it happen from the end of the old era to the birth of this Brave New Oligarchy.

For over two decades Americans habve bought lies and allowed their own interests to be undermined.

Let's hope the begging of present stirrings of outrage grow into real change.

Good post, and it should keep getting kicked.

[dpibel]

9. Something will have to give

I agree with you on that.

Unfortunately, I think it will be the somethings that have already been giving, i.e., regular folk.

I keep trying to find the smiley face under this big ol' mess, but I just can't.

Good post, except it fails the modern Amurrcan truth test: "Does that make me feel uncomfortable? Why yes. Yes it does. QED: It is not true."

[hunter]

10. I copied and saved this post.

Now I'm going to print it out...

[PretzelWarrior]

11. very well thought out. but I will tell you something to think about

there are many low to middle level white collar jobs typically being done by college graduates which are coming under the axe and more will follow.

As big businesses merge and these large enterprises transform the management of their supply chain or information streams with better control through programs such as SAP, Peoplesoft, etc. you will see a lot of logistics, planning, HR, accounting, and other jobs become obsolete. Also, there are many programming, IT support, database management jobs, etc. that are also being outsourced to overseas locations such as India which is a relatively stable country friendly to western interests with a tremendously rich population of people with technical degrees and no ability to earn money they should be getting for their efforts.

I say I agree with your surmise but paint an even bleaker picture. Only those who are politically connected or who find out how to truly grow/modify their job and career path are going to fare well in the economy moving forward in the next 10 to 20 years.

[PissedOffPollyana]

12. Got to agree there.

There are very few safe choices anymore. Friends of ours work for a large corporation, are skilled professsionals and have been with the company for years. They played it like we were taught to; educate yourself, get a good job, hustle for promotions & acrue seniority. Now their jobs are being devalued to 'hourly', hence loss of sick time and benefits. More and more of their jobs are being out-sourced to independants who work cheap to keep "competitive", creating an atmosphere where they are too afraid to question and lose their jobs.

Add to that a terrible market, where more companies are getting less picky about college and more interested in your credit report and how little you'll work for.

Hell, I've been a skilled, trained pro with pages of references in my field for over 15 years and have had a bitch of a time getting a decent job after being freelance. Been through 3 companies, each cheaper and more demanding than the last, in just one year!

All these industries rely on the health of the whole economy. Middle class folks vote to cut programs for poorer folks and they cannot contribute. Then, with that $$ missing from the system, some of the middle has to go to afford the executives and now there is even less money out there and so on... and so on... and so on... It is a downward spiral until we realize that every group needs the others to be employed and paid a fair wage. If not, we will keep losing jobs and cutting more and more until the system cannot support itself.

The easiest way to fix that is a combination of innovative public works projects and more accountability to corporations that do business here. Combine greater requirements for those tax breaks and hire the manpower to actually hold them accountable for a change. It is not the voters who keep the teeth out of legislation, so our job is to educate voters and get representation that will support those policies. It can be done, it'll just take working on a person-to-person level outside the media (whose ownership evidently like things the way they are). If people campaign for issues instead of personalities, that is a step in the right direction.

Thanks for a great conversation!

[JanMichael]

19. Accountability is the key.

Both in "Business" and Government.

"It is not the voters who keep the teeth out of legislation, so our job is to educate voters and get representation that will support those policies. It can be done, it'll just take working on a person-to-person level outside the media (whose ownership evidently like things the way they are). If people campaign for issues instead of personalities, that is a step in the right direction."

Big Economic issues, not pet issues. Not that the personal issues are wrong, but there are forces at play that demand our attention to the bigger issues.

[JanMichael]

16. Many Tech jobs can be outsourced, very true.

The "Creative" professions, ie. ones where there's something unique being created or maintained/one where some face to face is required, are what I was hoping to point out. I'm not certain that I was even thinking 20 years down the road either...Good points.

That said proximity is also the safety net for the top tier too. Although it's certain to pay more that waitressing.

Ultimately the basic premise still makes sense to me. Degree v. Non-Degree.

[Armstead]

13. Nuther kick

Here's a website releated to a book you might find of interest. It's about the minimum wage, but has a lot of info about wages and the cost of living todasy.


http://www.raisethefloor.org/

[KG]

14. waht gives? the sheeples ability to covince themselves that

what's really rolling down their back is rain, when their noses try to tell them it's piss.

nothing new tho. many past societies have been able to collectively convince themselve everything is just dandy when events should prove to rhem otherwise.

nazi germany is a recent example.

[Armstead]

15. Peed on,

>>>what's really rolling down their back is rain, when their noses try to tell them it's piss.<<

That's a good way to put it, when you consider how little sense the the "conventional wisdom" coming out of coporate media and corporate politicians makes in the light of reality.

Like the mantra "So what if we're losing all our jobs. It's good for you because you can just get training and get a bnetter job." Meanwhile the "better jobs" are also being eliminated.


(Though I disagree with your use of the word sheeple, and this is a different matter than Nazi Germany.)

[JanMichael]

21. Trickle on economics?

Yech.

[Iverson]

17. something will have to give (is giving right now)

Democracy.:-(

[JanMichael]

18. I think they'll maintain a reasonable facsimile of "Democracy".

Then again almost half of Americans don't vote now anyway...What's it matter to them?

Well, lots of things that the media simply isn't letting them know about.

[JanMichael]

20. I wonder why the anti-Labor types haven't jumped onto this thread?

I'm feeling lonely without the "free marketers" telling me that NAFTA & the FTAA is a GOOD thing...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Interesting fictional comment on American industry

I enjoy reading cheesy books about Japan, especially if they can be found for 25 cents in used bookstores, and the latest one I picked up was The Samurai Strategy, which is about a Japanese business tycoon who wants to avenge World War II by taking over the U.S. economy. It's part of the genre of paranoid thrillers such as Michael Crichton's book (whose title I forget) that flourished during the period when Japan seemed to be winning on all fronts.

In part of the first stage of the takeover, the tycoon hires a half-Japanese American business professor to remake a struggling American high tech company. She tells the executives that their problem is not that workers earn too much; it's that they are lousy managers. She takes away all their executive perks, selling off the limos and private club memberships and other toys, tells them to make a ten-year business plan instead of a quarterly one, orders them to plow all their potential profits into plant modernization and R&D, cuts their salaries, and eliminates their automatic bonuses.

The copyright on this book is 1988.

Unfortunately, the opposite happened in real life. The U.S. pressured Japan to adopt "international" standards, devalued the dollar enough to make Japanese workers truly unsustainable for exporters to the U.S., forced Japan to allow the entry of giant American retailers (killing off whole sectors of small businesses), and urged Jpn companies to send their young executives to the U.S. for MBA training. Now the Japanese economy has been crawling along in the basement for over ten years. Certainly the banking crisis (which could have been prevented by tighter enforcement of existing banking laws) had a lot to do with it, but among other things, the artificially high yen made outsourcing to cheap labor countries almost irresistible. Large corporations were easily able to outsource production to China or Vietnam, but this alone caused high unemployment, and the small companies that could rely only on Japanese workers either went out of business or started hiring illegal immigrants from poorer Asian countries. This led to even more unemployment, especially among blue collar workers. Does any of this sound familiar?

I don't think it's a coincidence that Japan began tanking soon after agreeing to adopt "international" business practices, and I don't think that U.S. insistence on such measures was benign.

There was a time in the 1980s when interest in Japanese business practices was high and the U.S. could have adopted many of the better ones, such as not allowing executives to become overpaid royalty or putting money into modernization and R&D. Instead, both Republicans and Democrats (and sometimes the Dems were worse than the Republicans) concentrated on bashing Japan and forcing their companies to adopt our bad habits.

[BuelahWitch]

23. What's even sadder..

is that I know a few people with a Bachelors degree and one with a Masters who are working overnights stocking shelves for Target. Still more do grunt phone customer service work for various industries (until those jobs get shipped to India). It's very discouraging.

[JanMichael]

24. I've seen the same thing.

But I think that my over all premise is sound, perhaps even moreso on the HS Diploma Only crowd.

[milkyway]

28. Is this the beginning of the end of American capitalism?

To a lot of serious thinkers, there is no light at the end of the tunnel for the American worker. Capitalism has always pitted worker against worker, and with technology rapidly shrinking the world, you're not just competing with the guy down the block, you're competing with massive numbers of desperate people from all over the globe. I have two kids, ages 13 and 11, and I don't know that even a college degree can ensure them of a decent job. I remember reading a statistic somewhere not too long ago about hardly any of the college graduates of this past Spring having found jobs, as classicfilmfan talks about.

I think, eventually, most people will wake up to what the unregulated corporate capitalism of the right is doing to them. If mutinationals are allowed to operate only restrained by the bottom line, we will continue in a downward spiral. If you think about it, American capitalism has been overrated. In the early years of the Industrial Revolution, it sucked for most everybody. Then with the market collapse in 1929, it sucked again for just about everybody, and was only saved by FDR's New Deal and WWII. It was certainly prosperous for most people for a couple of decades thereafter, with standards-of-living rising greatly for the middle class. But since then it's been downhill. Things started turning sour in the 70s, and Reaganomics really accelerated the downward plunge, taking wealth and benefits away from the middle class that they still have not recovered (of course, as usual, things sucked even worse for the poor, who really got a big push downhill from the braindead Reagan). Unfortunately for Bush Sr, Reagan left him to deal with the bloody mess he had caused. Bush Sr. had no clue what to do, and the voters politely asked him to leave. Thankfully for capitalism, the Clinton administration and the tech boom were able to right the ship for a while. But then in 2000 voters forgot why they voted for Clinton in the first place, and decided that what mattered most to them was "guns, God, and gays." Under junior, capitalism again has sent the standard of living for most everybody rushing downward.

We are taught to think that, like the stock market, our standard of living keeps going up (with an occasional bump in the road). But this is wrong. It's not just that it's gone down compared to a couple of years ago--at least for those of us outside the Sun Belt, it's far worse now than it was thirty years ago! I know from personal experience. My brother lives in the suburbs of Syracuse with his wife and two children. Both he and his wife work. They both have college degrees, are both highly skilled professionals and are managers in their companies. My blue-collar high-school graduate father, with less education and far lower in his company than my brother and his wife, was able to support a family of five on one income, also in the suburbs of Syracuse. The standard of living of our family growing up was at least as good, and probably a little better, than that of my brother's two-professional-income family now. And to top it off, my father has retirement benefits that pay him more per week now than he ever made when he was working; he'll have these for the rest of his life (of course, people of my generation had those benefits taken permanently away by Ronald "Screw You" Reagan).

Eventually, the middle class will realize that they are pissing into the capitalist wind. Socialism, anyone?

BTW, great thread and great analysis, JanMichael.

[JanMichael]

29. The whole stock market bs is what gets me.

It really doesn't mean anything anymore. At least not for over half (in reality probably 85%) of our 287,000,000 people.

I only added the university angle because as much as we're all going to get screwed the ones with the degrees will get scred less badly than those without. Those without (Remember that only 27% over the age of 25 have one) will get progressively worse deals in the "marketplace".

Your dad is the last of a breed.

We had a caller today on the Guy James Show that was a retired former Union carpenter...He was a repuke...He got his, screw the rest.

Needless to say I think the Wobblies were right. One Union is the way to go, if there are many then they're divided forever and the True Capitalists win, forever.

BTW: Screw Reagan! That sick old fuck.

[milkyway]

31. Because the TV news only shows one economic statistic every day...

people have been misled to think that how stock prices are doing is the same as how the economy is doing. But frequently a company's stock will go up because they fired a bunch of workers. Imagine what it would be like if the mainstream media all agreed to not give daily stock market statistics, and instead replaced it with an economic statistic that is more meaningful to people's lives (suggestions?)

BTW, the day Reagan drops dead, there's a party at my place.

[camero]

32. And you know it's getting bad

When families of all races have to have multi-generational households to pool their money together just to pay the bills.

Which means there's less marriage and more family turbulence. We are getting screwed big time with unregulated capitalism.

The downward trends actually started in the 70s with the OPEC embargo and Carter's deregulation policies. Reagan just put the gas pedal to the floor.

[dpibel]

33. Crash first, realization later

I agree with your analysis, and with JanMichael's (although I think JM is a bit too sanguine on the prospects of the professional class--the whole bottom 90% is disposable as far as the top 10% is concerned, IMHO).

I just have this gloomy spin to put on it:

You say, "Eventually, the middle class will realize that they are pissing into the capitalist wind."

I respectfully submit that this has never happened spontaneously in the US. The major labor/populist movements have more or less coincided with depressions.

We've all been taught to think of the Great Depression as a singular event in the otherwise stable and prosperous economic history of the country. But the entire 19th century was one long boom/bust cycle.

In the 1870s, there was a depression. Out of that came the labor movement that won the 8-hour day.

In the 1890s, there was a depression which gave rise to the Wobblies and the beginnings of the trade unions which became the AFL-CIO. There was also a credible socialist movement and the agriculture-based populist movement.

And of course, the 1930s, when the vast masses came to know the real meaning of well and truly screwed.

My point is, as long as things are perking along even moderately well, even just well enough to support feel-good propaganda, there's no historical precedent for the idea that the masses of America will come to realize anything at all.

For that, you need a real economic muck up.

My concern about the gathering storm is this: Can you picture modern Americans, with their deeply inculcated belief in their entitlement to neat toys, abjectly selling apples on the street, or riding the rods looking for work? I can't.

It's hard for me to picture the typical TV-watching American, in the midst of an economy like that in the 1930s (which may turn out to be a good time, relatively speaking) saying, "Damn! Those socialists might have a point!"

Call me a pessimist if you will, but it's a lot easier for me to see a lot of people acting out their simmering hatred of all those evil "others" we're taught to fear than to see them banding together for the common good.

[JanMichael]

34. 10%...27%? I suppose over time.

For the time being the 30-35% that do the bidding of the ultra rich will be fine, this economy is great for the dike between the Masses and the Plutocrats.

Over time you're probably right though.

"It's hard for me to picture the typical TV-watching American, in the midst of an economy like that in the 1930s (which may turn out to be a good time, relatively speaking) saying, "Damn! Those socialists might have a point!""

They will eventually, after this:

"Call me a pessimist if you will, but it's a lot easier for me to see a lot of people acting out their simmering hatred of all those evil "others" we're taught to fear than to see them banding together for the common good."

Which will be ugly and cathartic for those caught up in it.

[dpibel]

35. No real disagreement here

I just thought milkyway was proposing the possibility that the intractably-in-denial folks would wake up without the ugly and cathartic part.

And I wanted to rain on his parade. (Netsmeelie of your choice here.)

[camero]

25. Yep, it sucks to be on the bottom

Just a HS Diploma here, too. Got lucky for a little while makin $40K trucking. But when I got diabetes and needed a job where I could use my brain, it wasn't to be found. And no funds for college.

Bah, shoulda seen it comin.

[Deja Q]

26. Dean proudly supports NAFTA and FTAA

Just a pleasant little FYI... Kinda contradicts a few of his cozy statements that are pro-worker, doesn't it?

Something will give all right.

Destruction of the middle class, rising costs of health care, me-me-me attitude the repukes support (no concern for human society or the world), $7 trillion debt while shithead* gives out more and more in tax cuts. Jeb Bush playing god in terms of who lives and who dies.

We also need to teach the people to fight back; not sit back and say "that's life". Life is what we make of it...

[JanMichael]

27. Oh well. I heard he was a Leftist?

:shrug:

[milkyway]

30. I'm a Dean supporter, but the idea he's a leftist is good for a laugh...

Shows how far to the right this country has moved. Hopefully Dean, like Clinton, can at least stop us from sliding further downward. Dean has an excellent way of describing his economic philosophy--he believes in capitalism, but it's the government's responsibility to establish fair rules of play, and to "smooth the rough edges" of capitalism. What is radical about Howard Dean, at least compared to contemporary politicians, is that he speaks frankly about many issues, and also he was ahead of the curve with his Internet-based fund-raising.

[alfredo]

36. this process started in ernest during the Reagan years.

Trickle down is a parent child relationship.

Republicanism has nothing to do with democracy, but has everything to do with elevating the ruling class to undisputed power.

[Sideways]

37. Great Thread Thanks JM

I've read the entire thread and I must say I am glad I checked into GD today. The level of discourse on DU has sunk to a nadir I barely recognize lately.

THIS IS THE ISSUE. And I'm quite impressed with the responses. Milkyway in particular struck some major chords. And fuck the stock market crap it is just a tired old canard used to convince people "they too can be rich one day and aren't they happy to part of the process."

They should be showing real UNEMPLOYMENT numbers and discussing the decline in real wages we've seen since 1970 onwards. Once the FOCUS of the media went from Labor to Business and then it became SPIN (and it started in newspapers first) the writing was on the wall.

At one time every major daily had a labor section. Today none do. But they do have a Business section where you can read about the latest $75,000,000,000 mega merger and of course check out how your stocks are doing. AARRRGGGHHHHH.

[camero]

38. JM always makes good threads

I agree, they should show the real unemployment #s. With the rise of 401(k)s, Americans have been blinded into thinking that they were gonna have lottery money in their retirements.

Which is why I never invested in them, the house always wins in any casino.

[Sideways]

39. Kick EVERYONE SHOULD READ THIS THREAD

:kick:

[Elwood P Dowd]

40. The REAL unemployment rate is probably close to 15%.

There are over 7 million people out there working two jobs. They're counted twice. Then you have part-time workers factored in, and also
those that have given up finding work.

Ten years ago, I knew maybe 5 or 6 people unemployed or underemployed. Now I know twice as many. Some have college degrees and were Bush supporters in 2000. They are not happy campers.

If Bush wins in 2004, I look for REAL unemployment to increase dramatically. With FTAA coming along with all the sleazy deals he has
made with the corporate lobby, everyone from the middle class and below
will be in major trouble. Social programs will be open game even more than now. It's a "race to the bottom" my friends.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JanMichael]

45. Thank you! I was hoping that one of the anti-Labor (Human) types would...

...see this and let everyone see how nasty they are.

Thanks!!

[dpibel]

42. Welcome to DU

As you can see, some members use actual self-portraits for their avatars.

I personally don't know about the double-counting issue, but you're dead right about the "no longer seeking" work types. There's also a couple million people in prison who don't count on the unemployment rolls. Certainly, the official figure is very much understated.

And it's for sure a race to the bottom. Time for a national wake-up call.

[Elwood P Dowd]

43. Thanks for the welcome.

I was told in many cases they were counted twice. Maybe I'm wrong.
Also, look at the jobs that are being created. They're mostly dead-end
service jobs at Wal Mart or nursing homes or security guards.

The Free Trade crowd still doesn't mention all the service and spin-off jobs lost when those millions of manufacturing jobs left. They still refuse to talk about all the union jobs lost. Unionized manufacturing workers helped build the Democratic Party, and now they're being thrown away. We're eating our own in the name of this new God called Free Trade.

[JanMichael]

44. It is a race to the bottom, that's a fact.

I'm not sure about the unemployment counting but I know the ones that fall off the rolls and just give up are not included.

I agree also that the FTAA will be the end of the America that we all grew up in, it wasn't perfect but it was lurching forward, not this quantum leap back to the pre-New Deal era...