So, to what extent does sexual orientation evolve over one's lifetime?

[eyesroll]

If any?

Sorry for the second, "Dear Abby, What's normal?" post in a few hours. This one's a bit more personal (I won't let it get too personal) but it's been on my mind for a bit.

I have always identified as heterosexual (although for my adult life, I've acknowledged that I'm not a strict Kinsey Zero). My experience has been 100% heterosexual.

However, for lack of a better way of putting it, I'm finding my actual position on the Kinsey scale fluctuating. Specifically, fairly recently, I've found I'm inching my way up (at least in my head -- I'm married, and not planning on dating anytime soon, so this is more of an academic discussion for me anyway) and seeing women in "that way" a bit more often. (My attraction to men hasn't changed. Still like 'em. Still notice 'em, especially the nerdy ones.)

This is also all theoretical -- women in general. No specific girl crushes or anything. But it's more "there" than it has been in the past (I have had peaks and valleys before, I should say).

***Quick interruption: I want the record to show that I absolutely hate terms like "bi-curious," (that just sounds more like a porn/personal ad term than anything) or "heteroflexible" (marketing speak I heard on NPR last night). But I don't know what other terms work (if terms are even needed). ***

But anyway. Back to my original question -- Dear Abby, what's normal?

Logicially, this makes sense to me -- after all, the type of people we're attracted to in general changes as time passes. When I was a kid, my celebrity crushes were the Coreys and Kirk Cameron and that sort of thing, like everyone else. Now, it's Alton Brown, a great big food nerd rather than a hot young idol. Maybe gender works (or can work) the same way?

What has your experience been? Are you attracted to the same gender(s) that you were when you were younger, in the same proportions? (I know I'm phrasing this badly. Hopefully you get what I mean.) Do you find your "type" in general changing as you get older? If so, how?

Thanks, everyone. I know that if there's a place to ask a question like this and not get the weird looks or the uncomfortable silence (I can picture a commercial -- "Hey, mom -- do you ever get that....not-so-straight feeling?"), it's here. :pals:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. I went completely off sex and attraction for most of my teenage years.

And, despite no evidence to support it, everyone I knew asked me if I was gay! That's the thinking, if you're not having sex with girls, you must be having sex with boys. But it's not an either/or proposition. There's a lot of people out there who feel nothing for such things. I became ferociously sexual when it ended, then it slipped back into what I suppose is an ordinary sex-drive.
As for me, I've never had sexual feelings for other men, but I do often find them attractive on an aesthetic level. Read into that what you will.

[eyesroll]

2. Sounds human

One thing I've noticed -- women usually have no problem with, "oh, she's pretty" but sometimes men will couch "he's a good-looking guy" with "not that I know much about those things."

Everyone assumed my sister was gay in high school (she didn't date and she played softball and other sports). She's had two long-term boyfriends since. (Doens't mean she still couldn't be gay or bisexual, but it does mean that HS behavior doesn't really indicate much of anything.)

[Magrittes Pipe]

29. You are just like Morrissey!

Well, like Morrissey with two children.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

34. I went through a serious quiff phase.

I couldn't pull it off, though. It's a black hair thing.

[Magrittes Pipe]

35. I have no idea what you just said.

But I'm sure it was very erudite!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

38. Famous Quiffs

The subtle quiff.



Not sure why Morrissey hasn't used this as an album cover yet.

[Magrittes Pipe]

40. Oh! I thought you were talking about something naughty.

:evilgrin:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

41. Quim. What a great word.

No one says 'poontang' anymore. Do they?

[tigereye]

52. leave it to you guys to "enliven" a serious discussion

oh, wait, that's what you always do!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I think sexual orientation evolves with one's own consciousness

Granted much of it is built in, but life experiences also play a role in one's sexual expression of themselves since largely what we are attracted to is a function of how we view it.

It's often why people get married only to discover they are gay.

I myself have gone through this many times..from fantasizing about marrying my third grade teacher (Mrs. Martin...looked JUST like Samantha on Bewitched and I STILL have a thing for Elizabeth Montgomery) to being boy crazy in high school with this nagging feeling in the background...to HAVING female affairs in high school (one with two sisters that led to their mother screaming it outside my house at dinner time...that's how my folks found out BTW) to going out with guys to AVOID dealing with it with my parents...to being SOLELY gay and shutting out men...to realizing that while I prefer women...I wouldn't shut out the love of a man if it really was what worked in my life at that moment.

For me it's all more of a function of using my sexuality to participate with the world rather than separate myself from it.

[GOPisEvil]

5. That thought was rattling around in my head.

You expressed it much better than I could have.

[Misunderestimator]

6. Two Sisters?!? Wow.... you got me beat on that one!

Yowza... what a way to come out to your parents! :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. It was actually HORRIBLE and painful and dramatic and

and traumatizing...

[Misunderestimator]

10. I can only imagine... must have been traumatic...

At least I had the opportunity to make my own decision about coming out to my parents when I was 19... to which they said "Oh, we knew that."

[TrogL]

31. Well I wish somebody had told me

My coming out was one of the worst-kept secrets of all time.

I was one of the last people to know.

[Radical Activist]

25. Two sisters...I have a fantasy about that

Still only a fantasy though. I'm not sure why that's appealing to me, but that's probably my least healthy fantasy.

[Misunderestimator]

26. Not sure about it being least healthy....

But it's definitely least likely... :)

[Radical Activist]

27. I dunno...

I'm not talking about at the same time. I had an opportunity to hook up with the sister of someone I was dating once, but I was still a good person back then. :) Honestly, I'm probably still too nice to do that to someone.

[Misunderestimator]

28. Well, that's a different thing altogether...

and not as unlikely....

[cprise]

15. Condensed version:

"I'm Bi."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. True in theory but not in reality

In theory, I'm BI since I don't totally shut men out. In reality I am gay. I MADE the choice to live THAT part of my sexuality out in life since USING the name BI has people relate to you as though your life is a sex trip and not a real life with serious relationships...so it isn't quite that simple.

[Misunderestimator]

23. Same thing here...

Had quite a few relationships with men in my youth... and even after "discovering" my homosexuality, went back and forth, and once in my late 20s had a very loving (though short) relationship with a man. But in the end, my "real" self won out, and I made the choice that my preference (an extremely strong preference) was for women... So, I guess you could call me bi too. :shrug:

[cprise]

47. Bisexuals may have sexual preference

For me and millions of others homosexuality is an orientation, and we don't take kindly to having that difference trivialized.

Sometimes I prefer blue eyes, other times brown. That is a preference.

My attraction to the same sex is not a matter of preference. Please respect that and stop labeling preference in a bisexual context as 'homosexuality' and being gay. It gives credence to the ideas "ex-gays" and other homophobes.

[Misunderestimator]

54. I think you aren't following the context of this discussion...

The entire thread is about someone who is curious about feelings that she might have towards women (in a bisexual context) and is looking for perspective from others here. I consider myself a lesbian, but it is clear from my past that I am capable of loving all sorts of people, including men, even though it's not a natural thing for me at all. I am not denegrating what you are. This is who I am.

My attraction to the same sex is not a "preference" either. The point in my explaining the small part of me, my history, that experimented with being bisexual does not in any way give credence to those who would expect to change homosexuals. I have known many men and women who have never been with anyone of the opposite sex. I have also known many heterosexuals who have been with people of the same sex, but they are not gay, and not bisexual per se.

I truly believe that everyone has a degree of homosexuality and heterosexuality within them. That's my perspective. You have yours. Don't trivialize mine.

[cprise]

48. I am sorry

...but it sounds like you are hiding behind the term 'gay' to make your personal life simpler.

But it makes my life more complicated when homophobes have 'proof' they can change me to be attracted to the opposite sex.

I suggest doing something constructive about how people think of bisexuality. You could say that 'bi' is the orientation that has an element of preference.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. People are going to trivialize your life regardless because they don't

understand it and CHOOSE not to..they are the ones making the choice. I also am VERY suspect when some people claim they CANNOT be any other way..not that I would change them.

and, by definition, you are taking a big leap of logic where my life is concerned by labeling me.

How about we both just respect each other's perceptions of our lives and not try to stick either one of us into a box.

What a novel concept :wow:

[cprise]

51. if someone says they believe in biblical inerrancy

...i would say they are fundamentalist.

'bisexual' is a pretty straightforward term: it can refer to someone's desire, and/or their behavior. i have no trouble at all using it when someone provides the data.

i am currently single and regularly go out on dates. in the course of getting to know someone, they may describe themselves as "gay-bisexual" or other hybrid term which prompts a minute of discussion about what they mean and its no big deal. but i hope you don't mind me saying that what i'm seeing here are personal issues.

BTW, mary cheney is a *lesbian*... a label i continue to use to throw conservative hypocrisy into sharp relief. my lesbian sister uses it in the same way.

have a nice day.

[eyesroll]

17. Ugh...sorry you had to go through that...

But I appreciate your worldview. I think if we had more people with that perspective -- specifically "I wouldn't shut out the love of a if it really was what worked in my life" -- we'd have a lot less B.S. like hate crimes and marriage amendments.

[Misunderestimator]

4. Well, I just think you're bi-curious...

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:

(sorry to take your post so lightly... couldn't help it)

Now.. to be serious... I think that it is just a result of being exposed to more of the world as you grow older. In my experience *ahem* I've found that "straight" women are much more likely to entertain the possibility of being attracted to or even being with another woman sexually, than "straight" men are to being with another man.

I think it's perfectly naturally for you to develop a stronger sense of attraction to women as you open yourself up to other people's worlds. Doesn't mean you're not straight.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Straight women are more likely to be honest about it

I think straight men are just as likely but they hide it and express it through things like circle jerks and the like rather than talk about it...when my friend was trolling for fucks on the internet you wouldn't believe the number of married men looking for guys in the chat rooms.

[Misunderestimator]

9. Good point...

... is THAT what all those trolls are looking for here? :bounce:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. NO they simply are typing one handed

the thought of dominating a community with their bullshit while they slam their ham is how they get their jollies

[Misunderestimator]

14. ROFL.... n/t

[eyesroll]

12. Hee hee

Not that I have any experience in these things at all, but from everything I've heard ("heteroflexibility" is all the rage among young women, according to that NPR piece yesterday), your assertion is accurate -- women are generally more open to the possibility. Maybe it goes along with the gender stereotypes I mentioned to SLB -- women are usually OK with recognizing the physical beauty of another woman (hell, it's all I hear about in some public restrooms), but straight men can't talk about the attractiveness of other guys.

[Misunderestimator]

16. "Not that I have any experience in these things..."

Hehe... careful, or you will sound like you're protesting too much. :evilgrin:

[eyesroll]

19. Well, I did test as "greedy bisexual, or you are greedy-bisexual curious"

on that quiz earlier today...

:evilgrin:

[Misunderestimator]

21. See? I knew there was an ulterior motive for this thread. n/t

[eyesroll]

22. :-p

Actually, that did have something to do with the timing. That and all of the toaster threads.
:bounce:

[tigereye]

20. I used the work "bicurious"

in another post, as I hadn't really thought it through well enough to find another term. I agree with the above statement, that women may be more open minded to same sex experience. Although I am straight and married, and have not had any same-sex experiences, I liked to think about the possibility. I always thought that bi friends had probably made the most interesting "choice." And I have had that feeling since I was in college. I always have thought that it made sense to be open to the idea of love or sexuality not having to be restricted to one gender. And I think most of us have some of that interest somewhere in our psyches, if we are willing to listen. Some of the women who identified themselves as bisexual and married to men made me think about what that would entail from a psychological perspective. Interesting question.

[eyesroll]

24. It's not that it's an inaccurate term

It probably does describe me pretty well -- I don't identify as bisexual but I am curious about being with a woman. (Although strictly speaking, it would be more accurately called "lesbian-curious," or something more catchy, since my curiosity about being with a man gets assuaged on a regular basis. }(

I just don't care for it -- it kind of reduces everything to sex, rather than everything else that makes up attraction, relationships and sexuality.

[tigereye]

53. I think the more shallow aspects of our culture

limit our ways of looking at sexuality and all its forms, wonder if it's part of our puritan origins, obsessed with sexuality on its' crudest level, but missing the complexity of it.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

46. how about "bi -curious" coming from the gay side?

Thats sort of where im at.

Self-ID as "gay", all my experience has been gay, but am bi-curious......


I have to say, most bi-curious folks seem to be bi-curious about same sex sex or love?

[sniffa]

11. as i've aged

my options have opened.

[TrogL]

30. Whadya mean lifetime - mine changes daily or even hourly

Granted I identify as "bisexual", which people find confusing in and of itself.

Nevertheless, there's days when nothing and nobody will get my dander up.

Then there's the days when it's all girls all the time and I think this whole gay thing is a mometary delusion, then this cute guy gets on the elevator with me and I have to find some place to sit down, preferably behind a desk.

*sigh*

[dolo amber]

32. I heard on NPR

that the new term all the cool kids are using is "Gayish" (for bi-whatever). :D ;)

[eyesroll]

33. I think that was the same story I heard

I'm not sure if that one's any better.

Sigh...why do we need labels anyway? We're all people, we all want different things/people/outcomes in life...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

36. meaning they want the 'hip' status they percieve gay people as having

without the emotional commitment. Feh! Sexual Tourists!

[Magrittes Pipe]

37. No, dumbass.

A "sexual tourist" is someone who goes to Carson City for the sole purpose of visiting the Moonlight Bunnyranch.

Not that there is any other reason to go to Carson City.

[Q3JR4]

39. I considere myself gay.

At the age of 22, maybe I don't have a lot of experience yet. But in any event, I'm still going to add my two cents.

I love and am completely attracted to men. I don't think I could be happy dating and marrying a woman.

That said, if I ever loved a person and that person happened to be female, I'd marry her if we were both inclined.

I think that even when one labels oneself as gay, straight, homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, one should still be open to the experience. Furthermore, I think that love is love. When it comes along who can deny it?

**************************************************************

On another vein, I have seen some women I'd like to get sweaty with if they were so inclined. Maybe I won't be able to do anything if such a situation were to present itself, but if it DID happen and I liked it I'd probably still consider myself to be gay.

[geniph]

42. I refer to myself as an opportunist

I'm attracted to people, not specific genders or orientations. My position on the Kinsey scale fluctuates depending on who's around me that trips my triggers. I suppose that makes me bisexual, but my primary orientation is straight, with a strong attraction to some women. My husband's the same - primarily straight, with a strong attraction to some men. He has more actual experience with sex with his own gender than I have, simply because both of us prefer to incorporate other (preferably bisexual) men into our experimenting.

What's normal for you right now is what's normal for you right now. Very few people are fixed and static for their entire lives (and I think a lot of the ones who are are in denial).

[SarahB]

43. I'm fairly strait I suppose

I think in terms of erotica sometimes, I can find two women rather sensual because the sole focus is that of the pleasure of a woman, but I've never fallen in love with a woman or wanted to sleep with one personally. I'm very attracted to men (it is they I look at with lust), so what's that on the Kinsey Scale? A one maybe. :shrug:
I've had friends that were bisexual or lesbian at times in my life and I even knew a few gay and lesbian people my parents were friends with as a kid, so there was never any stigma I was raised with. It just wasn't something I was into.

[HornBuckler]

44. I Come From The Ideology Of

Pick A Lane And Drive. None Of This Middle Of The Road Stuff, But That's Just Me. Lesbianism Is Definitely More Acceptable Nowadays Then, Say Even 10 Years Ago. There Is An Increase In The Number Of Positive Lesbian Imagery - That May Just Be Enough To Get Someone Teetering To Topple.

Not That That's A Bad Thing.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

45. Oddly enough, I , too, find my position on the Kinsey scale changing, too!

Woah..nice to see Im not the only one.

Pretty much gay, but finding myself, in middle age, becoming attracted to females, too....

go figure.

[geniph]

50. That's actually not that unusual

I've ... ahem ... "helped" a few gay male friends who were curious about sex with women to experience it. A good time was had by all, and no one converted anyone or wanted to do so. I know a lot of gay men, especially ones nearing 40ish, who've never had sex with a woman and are tremendously curious about it.

Although I think mostly what one friend wanted was to experience going out for dinner with someone and holding hands on the street without having anyone yell insults at him or treat him like dirt. It was sweet, but sad at the same time - I can't believe he and his long-term partner can't do that, not even in Seattle, without receiving abuse. :-(