Canadian or UK DU'ers, tell us about your health care system experiences!

[kixot]

This may be vague, but we here in the states tend to get into arguments with right-wingers where we are told that a "socialized" (note the "socialism" implication) or universal medical system CAN'T work and that the British and Canadian systems are hemorrhaging money and that health care is so poor that doctors are leaving the country faster Cuban dissidents. The overwhelming question from a repukelickens tend to be "Who's going to pay for it?", from which one can deduce that they opine that only those who can afford health are entitled to it.

So, what's the real story. Anybody have any experiences or statistical data to share that we here in the states can use as ammo against the accusations?

[cprise]

1. And when they imply socialism

...do you deny it?

What do you think social democrats are?


Your friends are trying to drive the usual wedge between American liberals and the Left in the rest of the world. This tactic has been a stunning success for decades, to the point where American liberals and, say, German Greens don't really understand each other when trying to discuss economics.

[kixot]

4. I don't deny it favors a socialist system

I just know that with the buzz words out there that it makes it almost impossible to sway a fundie with "socialist" ideas so I opt to change the term to "universal" whenever I get the chance.

[Hoping4Change]

7. Canadians never refer to socialized medicine anymore.

We refer to system as universal healthcare.

"Socialized" has become too stigmatized so why use it.

[cprise]

8. If you ignore the politics

...that got these countries socialized healthcare to begin with, then expect to lose it.

You can't promote or defend a large public service like that using 'sanitized', Clinton-esque terminology and frames of reference.

Or has US-style liberalism suddenly become a succesess while I wasn't looking?

[Hoping4Change]

9. Well you do have a point. But I think when you are deling with

people who are so brainwashed against socialism more headway can be made sidestepping the word.

[reprehensor]

2. Lived there most of my life.

All of my experience was in Alberta. I have NO major complaints. In fact, my experience with HMO's in Texas has been a bit worse.

It was less expensive in Canada, but pound for pound, I have found NO major advantage to the US system at this point in time, AND it is more expensive.

However, if you are wealthy, you can get faster service in the US for non-life threatening medical conditions, surgeries, etc.

That's about (abote) it.

[CanuckAmok]

5. No problems so far...

I grew up in Ontario, where health care is completely free. I live in BC now, where it's income-based. I pay $9.00 a month for complete coverage (excluding dental).

The only problems I have had are in emergency situations, where most Emerg wards are usually filled to capacity, and mainly with people comeing in with minor ailments, or drug-dependency issues, or whatever. My 79 year old Father-in-Law had to wait over an hour in St. Paul's Hospital (Vancouver) when he had a stroke.

I have had a couple of friends who are MDs, and they don't mind the 'socialised' system too much. They don't earn as much as a US doctor would, but they still do very, very well, and they don't have to pay for the usual business expenses such as accounts receivable departments, etc, because they are paid by the Ministry of Health per patient. Unfortunately, some doctors here seem to specialise in taking an obscene number of patients per day, because the more people they see, the more they earn. If I remember correctly, each patient nets the doctor $19 per office visit. That may not sound like much, but if you can see 80 patients in 8 hours (ten minutes each), that's $1520 per day.

And, if you want to pay for private care, we have that, too. If you've got the $$$, you don't have to wait for anything.

[Kellanved]

3. Well, neither UK, nor Canada

(the UK system gutted so much that is almost defunct anyway).

To describe the German System is quite a task; not one I'll not try to complete today ;-).

There are semi-private insurance companies, regulated in price and minimal service; in return they are supported by the state.
People earning enough to pay for their own healthcare can opt-out anytime (as can freelance workers) ; for those not earning enough the public insurance is paid about 50/50 by the employer and the employee.

Choice of doctor/clinic is free for all insured in the public system; a good doctor will attract more patients.
However there is a two-class system: people in the public system do not quite enjoy the service offered to private patients, nor does the public system pay for everything. The system is in dire need of reforms, that it happened to create a surplus in the past year is the result of painful cuts in the minimal service catalog.


Bottom Line: it is quite a good system, paying for everything important - but one knows that it's main advantage is to keep proces for doctors and private insurances down.

[Hoping4Change]

6. My friend I am more than to happy to oblige.

Its hard to know where to begin.
I
The first thing I would do if I were you is to initially stun naysayers by pointing out that the champion of socialized health-care in Canada was Tommy Douglas (grandfather to Kieffer Sutherland btw)who started out not as a politician but as a devout BAPTIST MINISTER. It was his witnessing the suffering during the Great Depression that he turned to politics and made universal health-care one of his highest priorities.

I mention this because Republicans want to claim religion as their turf. But I say to you that Jesus, his disciples or any true religious figure never charged so much as a sardine for healing the sick.

There are several key points.

Firstly doctors aren't fleeing down to the US in droves. In fact I just saw an interview with a family doctor who left Nova Scotia several years ago to practice family medicine in Florida but returned to Canada fed up dealing with HMO's and all the paperwork. I was actually surprised that she said her earnings in Canada were comparable to her earnings in the US.

My psychiatrist who also teaches psychiatry at U of T could have any job he wanted in the US and make more money but he won't go. I am sure he would like to live in a warmer clime but he doesn't like the American mentality. Truth be told there many doctors here value this system of health-care.

What is not widely understood by Americans is that our system is the most cost effective way to deliver health-care. (I believe studies have shown we have the most cost efficient system in the world.)

1) There are no costly insurance bureaucracies sucking up health-care dollars.

2) There is no competition between hospitals to attract the high paying diseases so hospitals don't need to spend money on flashy hi tech equipment. Whereas US hospitals in the same city erect extremely costly heart centers to attract heart patients because that is where money can be made. In Toronto tunnels connect the major downtown hospitals so equipment need not be duplicated.

There is no limit to the number of times any one can visit their family doctor. And you can change family physicians if you so desire. And a person can choose whoever they wish to be their physician, a far cry from the situation in the US for people unlucky enough to have HMO's. Family doctors are the people who determine who needs to go on to see a Specialist.

Below are some links to Toronto's hospitals, the video clips some of them provide are worth eyeballing.

http://www.sickkids.on.ca/

http://www.uhn.ca/twh/

http://www.sunnybrookandwomens.on.ca/

http://www.uhn.ca/pmh/

http://www.uhn.ca/tgh/, http://www.uhn.ca/patient/patient_relations/?nav=7;7, http://www.uhn.ca/research/, http://www.ccn.on.ca/centres/h-tor-2.

html http://www.uhn.ca/uhn/

http://www.mtsinai.on.ca/

These are just a few of Tornto's hopitals. If I can assist you in getting out the truth about socialized medicine please let me know.

[Bonhomme Richard]

10. Yeah. I'd like to know......................

Is it bad or is it good? Do you have to wait forever for surgery or is that only elective surgery?
I'd like an honest comparison to what we have in the states, seeing that we don't seem to have a health care problem if you listen to the repugs. LOL

[Hoping4Change]

11. You may want to read my previous post. Very detailed.

However since you also asked about wait times, I think you find this link informative.


http://www.uhn.ca/patient/wait_times/?nav=8;8