Active Major Leauguers, who if retired today,should make the Hall of Fame.

[maveric]

There are several out there right now.
Here's my list:
Randy Johnson
Roger Clemens
Sammy Sosa
Barry Bonds
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddox
Jr. Griffey
Mike Piazza
Robbie Alomar
Raphael Palmeiro
Mariano Rivera
Trevor Hoffman

Who'd I miss?

[Old and In the Way]

1. I'm surprised at you.

Pdro Martinez, of course. :-)

[Yupster]

2. I'm a tough vote

I'd eliminate Hoffman, Alomar, Glavine and Palmeiro.

I bet A-Rod will deserve it in the end.

[No2W2004]

3. Add Piazza and

Rivera to that. Closers don't make the hall. Piazza won't get in cause his stats have been steadly on the decline. (373 HRs)

If you go by the way the voters are now, they'll give it to:

Roger Clemens - 319 wins
Sammy Sosa - 549 HRs
Barry Bonds - 676 HRs
Greg Maddox - 295 wins, will get 300 this year.
Jr. Griffey - 500 HRs

A-Rod has 361 HRs and is 28, so he has a good shot barring injury.

EDIT: Palmeiro- 539 HRs oops. :dunce:

[Teddy_Salad]

5. Piazza has to get in

He's hit more homers than any catcher in history.

He'll get in with that alone.

[maveric]

9. Palmeiro has more HRs than Mantle. 539

500+HRs should put you in.

[Yupster]

13. This is such a hitter's era

that I wouldn't necessarily vote in anyone with 500 homers. I see Palmeiro more as a stat accumulator than a statmonster. I think most of his stats are just based on longevity. I see him as a modern day Darrell Evans.

[Donkeyboy75]

26. I agree. 500 isn't a lock anymore, especially since McGriff will

probably hit that mark as well.

[Paragon]

4. Ivan Rodriguez

And let's hope he goes in as a Tiger. :D

[argyl]

8. Best catcher ever.The Rangers never should have let him go.

But if he'd have stayed,he'd never have gotten a ring.

[nickgutierrez]

6. Possibly Bernie Williams

Yeah yeah yeah, East Coast Bias and all that crap. Fact is, Bernie Williams is the most underrated player of the 1990s, hitting with the best players in the league while playing above-average defense at the second-hardest position on the diamond.

[Yupster]

14. Bernie Williams not close

wouldn't get my vote anyway.

Anyone interested in baseball stats, check out
www.baseball-reference.com

One of the things it does is compare each player to the most similar players in baseball history.

Bernie Williams is most similar to Will Clark and Bobby Bonilla up to his current age.

[nickgutierrez]

15. Will Clark/Bobby Bonilla + CF = Hall of Fame

You can't underestimate what value playing a good CF has to a team.

[Magrittes Pipe]

40. Will Clark in no way compares with Bobby Bonilla.

Or, for that matter, Bernie Williams.

The Thrill is probably the single most underrated player of his generation. He could hit RINGS around Bonilla. And Bernie, for that matter. Remember, his best years were 15 years ago -- hardly the silly-ball era we're in now.

And Williams hasn't been a good center fielder (defensively) for five years now.

[Donkeyboy75]

62. Actually, Bonilla and Clark's careers overlapped almost

perfectly. Bonilla and Clark had about the same power (slight edge to Bonilla in HR), but Clark beat him out by 24 points in average. Their K/BB stats are almost identical as well. They really weren't that different of hitters, and Bonilla played a much more demanding (3B) defensive position for half of his career than Clark did.

Clark just wasn't very good long enough to get into the Hall.

[Magrittes Pipe]

66. Bonilla played 3B (poorly), yes.

And he hit 3 more home runs than Clark.

Bonilla also played 137 more games than Clark -- almost a season. Even accounting for those 137 fewer games, Clark hit more doubles, walked more, and struck out less. Clark scored more runs and drove more in.

I am a BIG proponent of position adjustments (which is why I rank Honus Wagner as the second greatest player ever). That said, I don't really see Bonilla as a 3B -- more as a DH who spent too long in the NL. Remember, Dave fucking Kingman played 154 games at third, and the bat boy fielded better than he did.

Bill James ranks Clark as the 14th-best 1B ever. He ranks Bonilla at #41 as a 3B (James includes a player's entire career achievement when considering positional rankings). Now, James ranks Clark one spot above Dick Allen -- I disagree with this, Allen should go into the Hall before anyone considers Clark. That said... he also considers Buddy Bell, Eddie Yost, Tim Wallach, and Toby Harrah to be better 3Bmen than Bonilla. I agree with him on those players.

And I don't hear anyone clamoring for Bell, Yost, Wallach, and Harrah to be added to the Hall (although they were ALL better players than Lloyd Waner).

[Donkeyboy75]

70. I love walks.

And Eddie Yost is one of my favorite all-time players. But the walking man does not belong in the Hall.

I have a problem with James's ranking methods, though, in that he bases it on Win Shares. I'm not going to go into it, but even he admits that they aren't the best gauge of player ability. And that's how you get Johnny Mize above Hank Greenberg, which I think is a joke.

[Magrittes Pipe]

67. Oh, but I didn't address your point...

...the "silly ball" comment was directed at the Clark-Williams comparison, not the Clark-Bonilla comparison.

[Donkeyboy75]

69. Gotcha.

BTW, I don't know if you think Clark is deserving of the Hall or not. But point well taken...I remember watching Bonilla kick balls all over Three Rivers Stadium at 3B. He sucked. But I still don't think Clark gave you *that* much more at the plate. I just don't think he played at a high enough level for long enough to make the cut.

Dick Allen should be in, yes. That's what being an asshole will do for you.

[displacedvermoter]

7. Bagwell seems a lock, Biggio likely?

[maveric]

24. Biggio?? Nahhh!!

He's a "decent" ballplayer but not of HOF caliber.

[Magrittes Pipe]

38. Second best player of the 1990s. n/t

[maveric]

42. For Houston maybe. n/t

[Donkeyboy75]

63. You can't put him ahead of Bonds or Griffey,

unless you're hitting the crack pipe.

[Magrittes Pipe]

68. He's about even with Griffey.

Bonds lapped the field in the '90s.

[No2W2004]

10. The electors are jerks

Bernie's got 250 HRs and is 35.
Pudge has 240 HRs and is 32 & has been injury prone.
Bagwell has 430 HRs and is 36
Biggio has 218 HRs.


From what I've seen, unless you have either 500 HRs or 300 wins, a player has to have been spectacular at one position his entire carrer before they'll vote for him.

[jobycom]

12. Defense helps

Pudge, for instance, is one of the best fielding catchers ever. That will bump him higher than his numbers. There's also the pizazz factor. When Pudge was younger, he was inhuman at throwing runners out. That added to his style points, and made him more fun to watch, as well as adding to his value as a player.

It is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Statistical Achievement.

[Yupster]

17. I'd vote yes for Pudge

Piazza too.

Ernie Lombardi was no defensive standout either.

[No2W2004]

22. I'd vote Pudge and Biggio in too,however

The people who do the actual voting however seem to have "rules" in place that make it hard to get in on defensive skills. One of the rules they seem to have is a player needs to be a member of the 300-500 club.

[Donkeyboy75]

64. ??? Look at Ozzie Smith.

Got in for defense alone...basically

[rinsd]

43. Except throwing out base runners....

Is of less importance now than in the 70's & 80's.

[Donkeyboy75]

27. It SHOULD be hard to get into the HOF. Pudge on your list deserves

it, but none of the others. Especially Bernie Williams.

[chenGOD]

11. Were you by any chance prompted by this ESPN article?

McGriff not Hall worthy

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but found this an intersting story...

[Yupster]

16. I agree with the article

McGriff is not a Hall of Famer.

If anyone loves baseball history, check out www.whatifsports.com

Once Al Oliver was on our town's local talk show trying to lobby to get himself into the HOF. I called and disagreed with him. Good player - not HOF'er.

[Yupster]

18. If I can hijack the thread or a tangent...

Who is the least deserving player who is in the Hall?

I'd nominate Lloyd Waner to answer my own question.

[maveric]

19. Phil Rizzuto

A decent shortstop with mediocre numbers. He just had the advantage of playing on several great teams with bigger stars, and the NY media.

[Yupster]

20. Agree Rizzuto overrated

David Letterman told a joke many years ago about a guy who was clinically dead and then revived. When he was asked by his family what it was like being dead he said it was like listening to Phil Rizzuto during a rain delay.

[Donkeyboy75]

28. Philly boy Rizzuto.

The best example of a mediocre player on great teams being inducted.

[Commendatori]

31. Phil Rizzuto, Don Sutton

[St. Jarvitude]

21. Some more:

By the end of Curt Schilling's playing days, I think he should have a great shot of making it into the Hall. If Eric Gagne's incredible streak continues, he may have a spot freakin' reserved at Cooperstown for him before he even retires.

If Frank Thomas didn't have so many down years and injury problems, he'd have been a lock.

[No2W2004]

23. Thomas

would have been a lock, but he spent so much time pouting because he was DH ing instead of playing 1st base, who the batting instructor was, his contract.

[LynneSin]

25. Ken Griffey Jr. and Barry Larkin

Actually, Larkin is retiring this year and I think he's had a great career worthy of the Hall of Fame.

Jr. just got 500 homeruns and everyone else with 500 is in the Hall of Fame. Nuff said

[Donkeyboy75]

29. I'd cross off Hoffman, and Palmiero

500 HR's isn't a lock for me anymore. Too many other good 1Bs in the Hall. Of course, if he keeps playing well for a couple of years, that could change.

[maveric]

30. Next season Palmeiro will likely get his 3000 hit. With 500 HRs

and 3000 hits he's assured enshrinement. Only Aaron, Mays and Eddie Murray have done that. He's been the most consistent power hitters in the majors over the past several years averaging 38 HRs every years since 1990.

Hoffman is 3rd or 4th on the all-time saves list and he's not done yet. Trevor has more saves that HOFer Rollie Fingers. He'll likely hit 400 saves soon which has only been done once by Lee Smith. Lets face it, closers are an important part of the game and more of them will be enshrined.

[Donkeyboy75]

36. I personally think closers are overrated, but I made a mistake with

Palmiero. I think he should be in. I thought he had played a lot more DH than he actually has...and I have a huge bias against that idiotic rule.

Closers have a huge advantage in that they only need a good fastball and one other pitch. Hitters only see them once per game, so they can't make adjustments. Starters, IMO, have much more talent because they have to adjust to the hitters' adjustments. Closers are important (and Billy Wagner and Mariano Rivera are amazing), but they have to be something truly special to merit HOF consideration. The Eck was a starter for half of his career, and ended up with 390 saves. Hoffman is 35, and has 368 career saves. Only a four-time All-Star, no Cy Young Awards, and a career ERA above 2.50. I just think standards should be higher than that for a pitcher who never sees the same batter twice in a game.

[maveric]

37. Hoffman had 53 saves in 54 attempts in 98. Should have won the Cy Young

but the writers gave it Glavine who was the only 20 game winner in the NL that year.

1998 30 SDP NL 4 2 66 0 61 0 0 Saves=53 73.0 41 12 12 2 21 86 1 8 274 ERA= 1.48

[Donkeyboy75]

59. That's fine, but I still think

they have a much easier job than a starter. Not to mention the liberal save rules, which allow a "save" if an inning is pitched with a three-run lead or less. I don't think that's really a high pressure situation.

I don't agree he should have won the Cy Young award. Glavine pitched 229 1/3 innings that year. Hoffman pitched 73. Which guy is more valuable? To me, it's clear.

[maveric]

60. Hoffman was instrumental for 57 wins.

And quite often a closer has only a 1 run lead sometimes with baserunners.

[Donkeyboy75]

61. He pitched an average of

1.106 innings per appearance in 1998. Glavine pitched just under 7 innings per appearance. Glavine also had exactly half of the number of appearances that Hoffman did that year (33 to 66). Instrumental is a very subjective term. Besides, the only reason he had save opportunities is because the other 24 guys on the team put him in that position.

"And quite often a closer has only a 1 run lead sometimes with baserunners." There's no good data to let us know how many of his saves were of this variety, but starters always start the game with NO lead, and often have to pitch out of jams.

[denverbill]

32. Alomar? I don't think so.

Can't argue with the rest, although closers find it tough going.

I'd probably add Pedro Martinez.

[maveric]

33. Alomar is approaching 3000 hits and has been consistently good

throughout his career. He's a multi-tool player, hits, sometimes with power, runs well, and has won 10golden gloves. If Richie Ashburn and Rizzutto are in then Robbie should also be.

[rinsd]

52. I'm not so sure about Alomar.....

His numbers have fallen off a cliff since 2001. Odd in this age of hyper offense.

His body of work should get him in but it could take a few times.

I am not keen on the view that such and such is in the HOF so this one should be.

Money Store man shouldn't be in there but let's not compound it by adding more bad players.

[rinsd]

53. Agree with Pedro (nt)

[bigwillq]

58. I would add Pedro and

Randy Johnson.

[bigwillq]

34. I also disagree with Hoffman at this point

Yes, he's saved a lot of games in the last few years but I don't think he's that dominant of a closer when compared to a Rivera or other guys in the past like Dennis Eck.
The one thing going for him is that he saved a lot of games when he's been playing for a lot of shitty teams.
The rest of your list suits me just fine.

[maveric]

35. Rivera plays for a team that has a lead going into the 9th more often.

He's led the league in saves for a last place team a couple of times. Imagine if he had that Yankee lineup backing him up?
Trevor is "automatic" and has arguably the best change up in the game.

[bigwillq]

39. Well that's why I added my last paragraph

I give props to Hoffman for saving so many games playing for shitty teams.

I also feel Rivera would be just as good if he played for any other team, he might even have more saves cause the Yanks, as much as they use him, are up sometimes too many runs for it to be considered a save situation.

[maveric]

41. You make a good point. I live in San Diego and have watched Trevor

since he came here in a trade for Gary Sheffield. Its electrifying when he comes into a game and he is successful 95% of the time. Give Trevor a couple more years and you may change your mind.

[bigwillq]

44. That's why I said in my oringinal post

"At this time". If he can continue at this pace for 5-6 more years then he deserves to be in. Closers can have a long career and by that time his numbers will probably be too good to ignore.

[rinsd]

45. I'm a Yankee fan and Hoffman can go in the HOF.

He throws 4 pitches...FOUR!

He had a streak with the Pads in the late 90's when they were something ridiculous like 81-1 when he took the mound leading in the ninth.

Mo is simply the best. Eck was great but Mo did it on the biggest stage for longer than anyone.

[bigwillq]

46. Now we're talking some sense here

I agree. Hoffman should be in but Rivera is the closer master right now. I would still pick Rivera over any one right now with the game on the line. Everyone still talks about how Mo blew it in Game 7 against the D-Backs but that just proved that he was human. People were wondering if he even was human or if he was a robot before that game. Give the guy a break.

[rinsd]

47. My favorite Mo moment.....

Game 4 1999 against the Braves

Mo broke 13 bats....13!

That was what caused the infamous shot of Chipper Jones just laughing and shaking his head.

99 was Mo's best year, he went from July until the playoffs before giving up any runs.

His postseason stats are otherwordly especially when you consider how large the sample is compared to others.

Divisional Series: 1-0, 21 G, 33.1 IP, 2 R, 14 H, 3 BB, 25 K, 13 SV, 0.27 ERA

League Championship: 4-0, 20 G, 31.2 IP, 3 R, 22 H, 3 BB, 23 K, 8 SV, 0.85 ERA

World Series: 2-1, 20 G, 31 IP, 5R, 24H, 6 BB, 29 K, 9 SV, 1.16 ERA

That is freaking unbelivible.

[bigwillq]

50. Fucking Unbelievable

It needed so more emphasis because MO is just that good it is scary.

[rinsd]

48. No Bernie, Raffy, or Robbie....

As great as Alomar was he is like Mays with the 73 Mets right now.

I love Bernie. He's a Yankee HOFer....just not a HOFer. He was not the very best at his position for any length of time.

Raf may get in but he was hardly one of the greats.

[maveric]

54. Raffy will have 3000 hits and possibly 600 HRs.

If he reaches those numbers then he'll be one of three to aceive that.
If Harmon KIllerbrew and his lifetime .256 BA are in the Hall then Raffy and his .291 career BA should be there.

[rinsd]

56. See my earlier argument...

I don't accept the argument "so and so being in the HOF so so and so should be also". I just don't because lord knows the Vet committee has tapped on the unworthy.

Raffy will probably get in but he played in an era of hyper offense. His 500 HRs don't mean as much in this era as say the 60s or 70s or even the 80s.

Besides he should be penalized (no pun intended) for those awful Viagra commercials ;-)

[DrWeird]

49. Edgar Martinez.

Best DH ever.

Respect the rule or not, it and he have got a place in history.

[bigwillq]

51. That's a great choice

I respect the DH, I like it and yes Edgar is the best.

[maveric]

55. If Yaz and Molitor are in (DHers) then why not Edgar.

Although Yaz had many years and gold gloves playing left for the Sox.

[Donkeyboy75]

65. Neither played even half of their career games at DH.

Molitor - 44%
Yaz - 13%
Martinez - 69%

Plus, Molitor's numbers DWARF Edgar's (over 1000 more hits).

[rinsd]

57. He may be the first (and only) pure DH that goes. (nt)