? for creationists who say evolution violates the 2nd law

[shockingelk]

When entropy on Earth decreased as God created life, the entropy in God had to have increased, right?

[Salviati]

1. creationists who say evolution violates the 2nd law...

know just enough to pass the line from ignorance to downright stupidity...

[MsUnderstood]

2. What is the second law?

[Salviati]

3. 2nd law of thermodynamics:

states that in a closed system, the entropy of the system must remain constant or increase. The key word here is closed, the earth is not a closed system. The sun pumps tons of energy into the earth in the form of sunlight...

[HawkerHurricane]

10. 3 laws of Thermodynamics explained!

1st Law: In a closed system, there cannot be a increase in usable energy. In other words, you can't win. Capitalism violates the 1st law.

2nd Law: In a closed system, the amount of usable energy will not stay even (it decreases). In other words, you can't break even. Socialism violates the 2nd law.

3rd Law: These laws apply to all closed systems. In other words, there is no way out of the game. Religion violates the 3rd law.

And, as Siflnolly pointed out, the Earth as a whole is not a closed system, as the sun pumps energy in (while losing energy itself, so overall the sun/Earth system is losing energy...)

[smirkymonkey]

4. Entropy...

"The American Heritage Dictionary gives as the first definition of entropy, "For a closed system, the quantitative measure of the amount of thermal energy not available to do work." So it's a negative kind of quantity, the opposite of available energy."

"Today, it is customary to use the term entropy to state the second law: Entropy in a closed system can never decrease. As long as entropy is defined as unavailable energy, the paraphrasing just given of the second law is equivalent to the earlier ones above. In a closed system, available energy can never increase, so its opposite, entropy, can never decrease."

I also like this definition:

"(p. 14) All processes manifest a tendency toward decay and disintegration, with a net increase in what is called the entropy, or state of randomness or disorder, of the system. This is called the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

(p. 19) There is a universal tendency for all systems to go from order to disorder, as stated in the Second Law, and this tendency can only be arrested and reversed under very special circumstances. We have already seen, in Chapter I, that disorder can never produce order through any kind of random process. There must be present some form of code or program, to direct the ordering process, and this code must contain at least as much "information" as is needed to provide this direction."

Furthermore, there must be present some kind of mechanism for converting the environmental energy into the energy required to produce the higher organization of the system involved. ...
Thus, any system that experiences even a temporary growth in order and complexity must not only be "open" to the sun's energy but must also contain a "program" to direct the growth and a "mechanism" to energize the growth.

Though it's a scientific law, I would say it could also pertain to unregulated capitalism on a planet with finite resources and unchecked population. I believe that soon, this will lead to chaos.

[TychoBrahe]

7. One could argue...

... that if God himself actually did create the world in seven days out of whole cloth, he probably was somewhat beyond the limitations of the Rules of Thermodynamics.

(I frankly hate the "creationist" movement, but I don't get this argument.)

[shockingelk]

11. That's the reply the question intends to elicit

And here's how the conversation goes:

creationist: God is not bound by the laws he himself made, you scummy atheist.

evolutionist: If that's what you think, why are you trying to apply laws of science to a divine act?

[lagniappe]

15. It's a measure of the disorder of a system.

The second law states that closed systems tend to become more disordered over time. Energy will always spread out. For example, a cooling cup of coffee is an example of the 2nd law. You would never see a cup of coffee get hotter without some external energy.

Creationists love to state the 2nd law because they claim that evolution violates the second law. How can a simple organism evolve into a more complex organism?

However, there are so many examples of non-living things that contradict their arguments. For example, the patterns of snow flakes or ripples in a sand dune. Check out the devil's postpile at yosemite. Nearly perfect hexagons formed naturally in the rock:




The problem with the creationist argument is that there is oodles of sunlight entering our 'closed' system.

[jpgray]

5. But the Earth is not a closed system

So their argument is nonsense to begin with.

[pbg]

6. There is a point here...

...that Roger Penrose (no creationist and no slouch as a scientist) makes:

At the moment of the Big Bang you have a singularity. Zero entropy.

Given the Second Law, how did the universe get that way?

He doesn't have an answer, and neither do I.

Using it to argue against evolution is stupid, though. Closed system says it all.

[Spinzonner]

9. There is no 'that way' to get to

Time did not exist before the Big Bang so the question of 'getting that way', which implies a notion of causality is meaningless.

Not to mention all the other physical laws which were undefined until the event ...

Of coruse, my interpretation is subject to demolishing by Penrose's supposed greater understanding and insight of the question.

[Westegg]

8. Ah, but you're forgetting about them MIRACLES!...

And who creates them miracles? Thasss right, brother: God does.

God will see your closed system and He'll raise you a Universe. Shoot, he don't even have to go that far. He'll raise you the miracle of the lilies in th' field. Hallalujah! His Name be praise-ed. God don't give a hoot for your second law of tha whatever-whatever. Some science-man wrote that blasphemy down and spoon-fed it to a buncha homophiliac, syphilitic commie lovin' hermaphroditic sinners. Lookit, yer all going to hell. You jews and fags and democrats and what not.

Lemme ask you a question. And there's only one Right Answer. Have you been Bathed in the Blood of the Lamb?

Oh yeah---almost forgot. Those black holes you keep finding out there in space? That's God Almighty hisself, winkin' at y'all. Mind you read Revelations. Before it's too late.

[Magrittes Pipe]

12. Entropy went to God on August 12, 2001.

:(

[lapfog_1]

13. Reminds me of my favorite saying in college

Whenever someone was whining about something...

"It all pales to insignificance when compared with the
impending entropic heat death of the universe".

[Spinzonner]

14. Didnt Einstein say Insignificance was Relative ?

Or maybe he said it was just opinions about what was significant that was relative :-)

[lapfog_1]

16. I think it was

relatives with opinions are insignificant.