Just one more brief comment about homosexuality and societal attitudes.

[terrya]

I have a fervent wish that homosexuality will ultimately be accepted as a NORMAL part of the human condition. A couple of months ago, gay pride was celebrated around the world. I'd like to see a world where we don't have to feel the need to have gay pride events. That homosexuality just IS.

Will that ever be possible? I certainly wouldn't ever deny my being gay...because it's a part of who I am. But it feels like we are moving glacially on acceptance...and it sure as hell doesn't help that people in public life would demonize us just to accrue cheap political points.

[smada]

1. Probably not in this lifetime

Scaring people with tales of public orgies, child molestation, and recruiting in schools is WAY too profitable for the religious right.

[DemWitch]

2. Unfortunatly, not in our lifetimes

I think we're in the time of having to be out, letting folks know we are gay, so that they can see that we're everywhere, do everything, that they do. Someday, I hope it will be just that being gay "is" and nothing else. But I don't think any of us will be around to see it.

I don't agree though about moving glacially (love that term by the way). 10 years ago, I never would have expected to be having the marriage debate, legalized civil unions, etc. It's just that for every step forward, there is a great resistance and the need for those who dissagree to puch us back two steps. From the time I came out (lo, those many, many, many years ago) until today I have seen alot of progress made for us. Can we go further, yes. But I am still surprised at where we made it to sometimes.

[Cats Against Frist]

3. I completely agree

and I just had a post removed in GD, most likely for being a "gay hater," which is not the case at all.

My post opined basically that when gays pin their hopes on something like a "gay gene," and are ultimately disappointed, it sets back their cause. All sexuality is much more complex than most people "politically" make it out to be. I don't believe, however, that being gay is a choice, and simultaneously believe that there is no rational argument for being "against" homosexuality, or clearing the way for gay families to have the same rights as other families. Imagine that -- a person who doesn't have to lie the lies of identity politics, and be 100 percent for gay equality and rights.

Gay people should be treated like anyone else. And homosexuality should be discussed openly, just like all sexuality -- the wonderful, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the uncomfortable. The only way you break through bigotry and stereotypes, IMHO is to come to an understanding, dump the constructs (from both sides), and remember both "the golden rule," and "civil rights."

[sui generis]

4. the real issue is

that people who are not think it's a choice, and will even go to great lengths to tell us that it's a choice with us standing right there.

At any rate, people love to make moral calls about things that are different from their own experience, because we learn about the complicated world around us quickly as children by putting things into very black and white uncomplicated categories. As we mature, we learn to revisit and refine our "first opinions" with facts and insight, and we begin to learn differently, and the smartest among us teach their children to avoid the pitfalls of their own youth.

The adults among us have learned that "different" doesn't always mean wrong or bad, but there are many many people who resist change in everything ("conservatives" in general), including their childlike thinking, who will never accept it and who feel like they are personally under assault if you demand acceptance.

[SarahB]

5. Homophobia is kind of akin to racism.

I think many people are either raised with healthy, accepting attitudes of sexuality in all forms, or they're not. Fortunately, I was, so I have never found it threatening or "strange" as a heterosexual. Some people though come from families that in some way disparage homosexuality (just as some do as far as racial differences--more in the past than now-- but still some), so there's more to overcome and a willingness to be open enough to do so.

I hope one day people wake up and get a clue and especially to stop throwing the Bible into it. First of all, not everyone believes in the Bible and since we have a right to religious freedom (at least I think we still do), the Bible shouldn't matter anyway. Then again, the Bible itself has some very messed up attitudes regarding sex. It also states something about having intercourse during a woman's menstrual cycle is grounds for stoning. Funny, the right wingers don't throw out those lines when arguing for laws governing sexuality and using the Bible to do it. Traditional conservatives argue for less government. Apparently, if it's involved in who we love and what we want to do with our sex organs, they have a right to exert government control.

[onebigbadwulf]

6. That will only happen when all dogmatic religions disappear.

Sorry. It's like hoping people will stop going to Church on Sunday.

[XNASA]

7. I would agree completely, Terry.......

Except that I don't understand the meaning of 'normal' human condition.

It's probably true that every segment of society has trouble fitting into what they think is normal. Take me, for example.....

I'm a middle-aged married guy with two kids, living in the suburbs. I guess that most people, be they right or wrong, would consider my existence pretty normal.

But my life is anything but normal. In fact, it's usually pretty frustrating. I may not be impugned in society or in my extended family because of my sexual preference (BTW, there are gay people in our family) but I am maligned for other things. My politics, my religious beliefs (or lack thereof), my lifestyle and tastes, etc.

From what I can tell, we should be thankful we're not 'normal'.

Whaddya gonna do? :shrug:

[RhodaGrits]

8. I've been exchanging emails all week with a freeper and

last night when he couldn't rebut ANY of the facts I sent him about Kerry vs Bush (refuting his lies) he, of course, resorted to playing the gay card - that Kerry is Pro-Gay Marriage (he even got that wrong - to my dismay about Kerry) and how could <insert extremely ugly gay bashing remarks>.

I sent him a long email with some clips from the hrc.org site but I do think homophobes like him are hard-wired brain dead.

I showed the email to a friend who thought the following remarks I made in that very long email was going to send his head spinning off to Mars LOL:

You find male homosexual sex abhorrent. Fine. No one is or ever will be requiring you to have sex with a man because civil unions/marriages become accepted by society. No one is even asking you to think about it. Some heterosexuals enjoy sexual activities that you might consider “not right”. Oral and/or anal sex between consenting adult married heterosexuals is illegal in many states despite being considered “mainstream” by a lot of heterosexuals. It was illegal to have sexual intercourse other than in the missionary position in some states. In Texas, you can own and carry handguns, shotguns and rifles but possessing more than 5 dildos are illegal. I would argue that THAT is “not right”.



Keith Boykin said “In supporting anti-gay sodomy laws, Rick Santorum used an old law school argument called the "slippery slope." If you do this, then x, y and z will happen too. But Santorum had the slope backwards. Actually, if the Supreme Court says that consensual gay sex within your home is illegal, then so is unmarried sex, so is non-procreative sex, so is unconventional sex. You have the right to do nothing. . . Except, of course, the missionary position, with your spouse, under the watchful eye of the sex police.” This is none of the government’s business.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. I think, as we discussed earlier, that every generation becomes more

accepting. Unfortunately people need real experiences to change their deep seated views (and biggotry). I don't think it'll happen quickly.

Its up to people like us to fight, advocate and, above all to teach. Teach those yet to be born but more importantly - teach the adults. People can't be put into the convenient boxes our society wants to keep them in. Like the Jeffersons to black pople in the 70's the Queer Eye phenomenon has pidgeon holed gay people. Fuck that!

We need to teach the people to love!