Another "my friend is a wingnut!" thread

[chookie]

I've been friends with this guy for almost 20 years. I'd noticed that over the last few years he has been drawn to the Dark Side, and since His Chimperial Majesty was installed, he has become a Bush Worshipper. I have broke off contact with most people I know who espouse such views, but not with him as we have too many ties to bind us.

As he was near where the hurricane hit, I wanted to see how he was.

I try to avoid politics with him, and even though I disagree with what he believes, I still treat him with respect, but to be honest, he never says anything interesting, but just the same old freeper bullshit you can get anywhere.

What has puzzled me is that he is 100% behind Bush and the GOP, in spite of the fact that he
1) has had a long career in science education tied to evolutionary biology
2) is anti-religion.

Today I asked him what he thought of the fact that Bush is an evangelical Christian. He denied that this was true and said he couldn't imagine where I'd gotten such a crazy idea. WHen I noted that Bush's most loyal voting base is evangelical Christians, he laughed that this was simply absurd -- that all the wacky fundamentalists were black democrats. He said that John Kerry is much more of a religious fanatic that George W Bush is. He also denied that Bush had any special support for Israel.

I asked him if he considered Bush a traditional Republican or untraditional. He was puzzled by the question, and said that he considered him 100% mainstream, and that in fact he has done more to advance the Democratic agenda than any Democrat has done. This was referring to putting Blacks in Cabinet posts. I responded, as diplomatically as I could, that at least one of these is incompetent, and didn't seem to be in the position for other than window dressing.

He said he was gravely concerned about issues like over-population and global warming, but blamed these issues on liberals, because we coddle the unproductive. WHen I suggested that Bush seemed to reject the conclusions of the scientific mainstream on these issues, he laughed and said this was simply a misunderstanding that people had of him. He said Bush is a leader in promoting scientific research.

Most un-fucking-disturbingly of all -- when I made a little joke that because mankind has not learned to come up with rational solutions to keep reproduction at sustainable levels worldwide, that (ha ha) we're going to have to do population control the old fashioned way, by warfare -- and to my astonishment he said "Yes. Peace doesn't work. It has created these problems."

All I can say is holy fucking shit.

Yeah -- most of what he says is typical freeper insanity -- but what is FASCINATING is that *he* thinks that Bush is not religious -- that he sees him as a rational person, and sees religious insanity and anti-science as a liberal problem. He said I have been completely deluded about Bush's religiousity.

I try to read widely about Bush -- but while some say that he is not the evangelic fundamentalist that he pretends to be, I have NEVER come across the notion that Bush and his followers are rational secularists -- I think this is my friend's intellectual invention in order to rationalize being a scientist and a right-wing wacko -- but if ANYONE has ever heard the claim that Bush is not religious, I would love to hear it.

Anyway, although I am glad that my friend was spared the hurricane, I am very horrified to hear him espouse such hideous opinions. Supporting His Chimperial Majesty is bad enough, but to say that "Peace is Bad" -- that's fucking Naziism.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

1. I ran into a guy

once who was anti-peace. Yeah, anti-peace. I asked him how one becomes anti-peace (I wanted to yell WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? but that wouldn't be very peaceful of me) and he said "peace just screws things up...war is necessary to keep things in balance."

We were attempting to have a debate and I told him that was a deal-breaker for me. Anyone who BELIEVES in war, who is AGAINST peace, yeah, sorry bud, can't go any farther with you. I get off HERE. So I ended the conversation.

YEah, I know a stronger person might have tried to "convert" him, but if you are starting from THAT standpoint, I don't have enough time or energy in the world to pull you back from THAT dark place.

[chookie]

6. I've heard of this notion before

There have been other times in history when the "war is beautiful; war is the only answer; war is noble; war is justice; war brings out the best in people" stuff has captured the public imagination -- in popular literature in Germany and England before WWI, and in Germany before WWII. It's a kind of "muscular romanticism" that embraces "masculine" virtues les comraderie, athleticism, exclusivism, etc.

One will also hear this sentiment expressed on C-Span from callers, and it is popular with Rush Limbaugh callers.

Does anyone think this notion that solutions lie in violence will disappear any time soon? This is the same bullshit they have been saying for centuries -- there is ALWAYS an enemy -- one year its infidels, the next year it's "red Indians", the next year its Jews, the next year its commies, the next years it's black people, the next year it's gays, the next year its Democrats, the next year it's moderate Republicans, the next year it's non-fundamentalists, ad infinitum. They ALWAYS find a point halfway between any two points!!!!

This is the path they are going to set for us. They're NEVER going to be satisfied with just killing off the enemy du jour -- because their very existance depends on maintaining the existance of An Enemy.

Their philosophy has ALWAYS involved identifying "enemies" -- and each time they have the opportunity to destroy an enemy -- they move on to create a new one and make it a crusade to destroy that one.

As to the particulars -- I KNOW I cannot persuade this friend. If I have any chance, I can only do so by behaving with decency, and just hoping that some thing I say eventually gets through.

But you're right, I fear -- there is not enough time or energy to spend on this person who has committed themself to the Dark Side, and actually believes the only natural thing is that I will come to think exactly the same way -- it's ain't gonna happen. It's not like I have knee jerk reactions -- I have TRIED to see their point of view -- and in my humble opinion, it is wrong, it is folly, it is dangerous.

[Gato Moteado]

2. your friend is a hopeless case.....

....i have cut all ties with people like that. how could i ever respect anyone that supports bush or thinkks like your friend? i don't want to have friends that i can't respect.

my question for you: do you really think bush is an evangelical christian? or do you think he says he is so as to pander to the religious extremists? i think it's the latter. my guess is that money is bush's god. everything he does is incongruent with the teachings of christ. the repubs just know how easy it is to manipulate the little brains of religious extremists. it's one of the things they do best.

[chookie]

7. To answer your question:

You may be right -- His Chimperial Highness may in fact be a cynical opportunist who learned the hard way when Daddy lost to Bubba that you MUST pander to the wacko religiously insane.

Kevin Phillips documented what I had analyzed -- that there was a "wink wink nudge nudge" relationship that Dubya had with the wackos -- he told them that they had to be quiet and smile when he went out there in campaign 200 and said he thought Palestinians should get a fair shake, and that he believed in a humble foreign policy, etc -- to run as a moderate -- but they were not to object, but to tacitly understand that he INTENDED to govern as a right wing wacko. HEY -- TALK ABOUT FLIP-FLOPs, huh? For 3 months, every 4 years, like some species of cicada, smirky the chimp, the radical extremist, appears to be a moderate. Why? Simple answer -- because he is NOT mainstream -- he is a radical that no sane American supports -- so he has to LIE, he has to deceive.

Do I think he is evangelical? I think *probably* -- based on indirect evidence, and certain political postures -- i.e. Armageddon is a-coming in the Middle East according to the Book. I BELIEVE the cynical opportunists who are hedging their bets are people like Cheney and Rumsfeld, who really ARE hoping that they will get your car after the Rapture, or the Apocalypse.

Based on my analysis, George W is genuinely religiously insane, but I have not ruled out your very plausible hypothesis that he is just a bastard exploiting the kool aid crowd.

[Cha]

3. From reading this ...I'm thinking your friend has

a Big Blind spot. That's the only explanation.

And he's a scientist, too..go figure.

Everybody knows "God speaks through bush"..maybe you could get a bunch of those crazy bushisms and send them to him.

Ya just have to listen to the chimp and know he's not all there.

Oh, never mind, forget I said that last sentence..because I know his followers know he can do no wrong.

"Peace is bad" Did not your freakin' friend hear bush say he "wants to be the peace president(sic)?!!!

[chookie]

8. The Blind Spot thing

Bingo.

As I said, I was genuinely puzzled that an atheist downright ANTI-religion kinda guy (BTW his *anti-religious* stance is VERY untypical of most of my science friends (professors, curators, etc) could think Bush is the greatest president that ever lived. I honestly expected for him to say -- "Uh, this TROUBLES me about George W". But, he ignores this. He erases it from his consciousness.

Which leads to the conclusion: it is the Authoritarian Type. One of their hallmarks is absolute obedience to a perceived authority, and breathtaking accommodation of contradiction.

BTW -- he is NOT an activist. He is not trying to convert me. He is simply speaking his mind. He does not want to persuade me to think that Bush is more like *me* than I realize. He REALLY believes that Bush is progressive, pro-science, not at all religious -- and LOVES him for these things -- that aren't true.

On another level -- there is clearly social pathology at work here -- a la the Brownshirts and all those silly naive questions that people used to ask about "Oh, HOW could such a TERRIBLE thing happen -- ?????" It's happening here. Hey -- maybe I'm not a bleeding heart socialist commie appeaser -- but maybe just an ordinary Joe who is freaked out about the rise of authoritarianism, fundamentalism and fascism in America?

[NMDemDist2]

10. did you hit him with the 100+ Nobel Prize scientists against

Bush's programs?

seems like that might make a dent

[chookie]

11. Might be worth a try

I did try the "respected world-standard peer-reviewed science authorities have been rejected by Bush" approach -- but again he laughed and said that this was just liberal brainwash -- that REALLY Bush was on top of all of this stuff and never said anything to contradict them.

Don't you know -- it's just minor bureaucrats who err against the unerring principles of El Bushissimo that create these absurd anti-Bush hate speech that makes it seem that he thinks this way....

In spite of what Laura said about how silly people like me and Nancy Reagan, who watched our loved ones disappear into Alzheimers, MUSTN't get our hopes up about the stem cell thing, because, you know, it might not pan out. That's what Designated Grown Up Laura says. The fact that the medical research community says that Stem cell research is the most promising frontier of medicine -- well, that's just false hope. Thanks for straightening me and Nancy out, Laura, because we sure were deluded by those Nobel prize winners and stuff.

MIND YOU -- peace is Israel is NOT a false hope. Democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan is NOT a false hope. A vigorous economy in America, even the Rust Belt, is NOT a false hope. Victory in the War against Terriers is NOT a false hope.

But get this -- Laura sez -- progress in stem cell search IS a false hope.

Get it straight. Get it right. People are watching.....

[jeff30997]

4. Bush is not religious.

Now excuse me,i have to put my straitjacket on because I'm playing with my friend Ooghl the Yeti and it's cold outside.:)

[amazona]

5. your friend is delusional

Even die-hard Bush supporters would not make some of these claims straight-faced.

[chookie]

9. Might be

One of the reasons I posted this was to try and get a reality check -- wondering if I had missed something, anything, that would back up his claims. Yes, IMHO, no one could make these claims; I believe they are false. Another reason I shared them is to show just how way out the authoritarian mindset can be in the wya it can ignore the contradictions of its perceived "authority" figure.

As I said in an earlier post -- yes, I think there is an element of social pathology in our midst, not unlike the militaristic movements before WWI and WWII, and, if I may be clinical, there way be an element of true delusion involved, as this dear friend suffered a stroke a few years ago and never was quite the same. After the stroke, he experienced an extreme period of personal paranoia....

But some of the ideological elements he expressed today I had heard years before his stroke. It used to be easier to talk to him about them, though. For example, he would tell me that the white American male was an endangered species, and I would laugh and say, sorry dear, there is so much sad shit going on in the world that by the time I go through my list of victims to "white American males", I'm all cried out.

He also used to tell me how it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a job at our university if you weren't black. (He wasn't the only only who thought that way -- a few other recently graduated Ph.Ds used to decry that they had no chance to get a job because they were not minorities, even though they worked in pretty esoteric biological fields. ) I said, oh YES -- just TRY to get a job scrubbing toilets around here, and you don't have a CHANCE!! The truth was -- there were NO blacks or hispanics or Asians or ANYTHING by Anglos in any of the professorships, curatorships, adminstrative positions. But blacks had DEFINITELY had a stranglehold on the toilet detail. He was blind to the reality of what was all around him -- yet the PERCEPTION was that blacks were threatening them from everywhere.

Oh -- BTW -- he said George W did more for blacks than anyone, by putting Condi in the Cabinet -- and I said -- why did he have to put in someone who is totally incompetent?