Oksana Baiul needs to give up her Olympic Gold Medal!

[joeybee12]

Tapes of the short program showed an obvious error mandating which should have put her in 4th place. Then with the scores for the long program the same, Nancy Kerrigan would have gotten the gold.

The University of Colorado needs to give up its National Championship in football because they won a game against Missouri having been given 5 downs instead of 4.

The Kansas City Royals needs to give up their World Championship because of an obvious out that the umps didn't call correctly, and the St. Louis Cardinals would have won the game, and the series.

Let's correct all the flaws in all the sporting events for all time!

[LynneSin]

1. Can we redo the 1981 World Series - Cincinnati Reds were screwed!!

They had the best record in baseball but because of that damn split season they didn't even make the playoffs. I DEMAND A REPLAY OF THAT ENTIRE PLAYOFF SEASON!!!

[Dookus]

2. Starting with the wrong difficulty score

is a clear, objective error. It should be rectified.

[joeybee12]

5. And you file a complaint right away, not two days later when you're diggin

for something just to steal someone's gold. The South Koreans had their chance, they blew it, they should stop whining and grow up. BTW, Brett McClure's score on one event looked low to the American coaches, so they approached the judges IMMEDIATELY. The SOuth Koreans didn't.

[Dookus]

12. I was told here

that the Koreans DID approach the judges immediately and were told to file a complaint the next day. I don't know if that's true or not.

Anyway, a blind adherence to the rules to the detriment of fairness is silly.

[joeybee12]

26. Didn't happen--that's what they claimed, but the judges denied it, and

the IFG said the Koreans didn't. In other words, the South Koreans went fishing for something, and they eventually found it.

[Dookus]

27. went fishing?

don't you see a difference between a clearly WRONG starting value and a subjective judging decision?

[joeybee12]

32. If the South Koreans knew it was so wrong, then they would have complained

right away. They didn't think Hamm could come back from so far down.

Besides, Oksana's scores should not be construed as subjective since the rules madate certain deductions. She should have been been lower in the standings going into the free skate.

[Dookus]

35. So the time limit for registering complaints

is what you're basing all this on? NOT on fairness, not on sportsmanship, not on doing the right thing? Just a technical adherence to the rules, regardless of the rightness of the outcome?

That's how Bush became President.

[nyhuskyfan]

39. How do you justify...

That the Korean should have received a .2 deduction for too many holds in his routine? You can't insist on one simple technicality and ignore the other.

A lot of people have compared this to the election and the analogy just doesn't hold. Counting votes is not an athletic competition where the competitors have a direct influence on the outcome. If Al Gore was told he had to shake 17 million hands to win Florida by election day, and then after he succeeded, they told him that they were wrong and it was actually 17.5 he needed, then you'd have an argument, because Gore would have accomplished what he thought he had to accomplish.

You can also recount votes without any worries that the changes you are making would have altered the voting process. In athletics, it doesn't work that way. If you know you have the lead going into the last rotation, your mindset is different. If you know you need a 9.875 to win instead of a 9.8 on your final apparatus, you probably perform a little differently. That's why the rules are the way they are, since the competitors aren't performing in a vacuum -- momentum builds, confidence ebbs and flows, etc. Similarly, it's supposed to be an advantage going last, because you know what the other competitors have done and what you need to do. That's why the ones with the highest scores in the preliminaries are the ones who go last. It's a reward. And if you go last and think you need a 9.8 and you get it, you can't go back and change scores and make the parameters different after the fact.

[Dookus]

41. because the supposed

deduction that was missed was a SCORING decision, not a mathematical error.

[Bluebear]

3. And Janet Lynn needs to get her Olympic gold medal.

School figures were eventually dropped anyhow and the greatest skater of all time should get her rightful gold medal and strip Beatrix Schuba of her gold...(actually that sounds like a good idea!)

[ret5hd]

4. (yaaaaawn)....huh? bombing in faluja? genocide in the congo?

an election being stolen in usa? cia up to hijinks in venezuela? oh, well, guess i'll go back to sleep.

[ronnykmarshall]

7. Uh, this IS the Lounge ya know.

[Bluebear]

8. We must have some beauty & diversion as well

Even comedy...I don't think DUers are ignorant of world events as a rule.

[calico1]

6. This is why I hardly ever watch

any sport in which judging decides the winner. I would rather watch a swimming or track event where the clock is the only decision maker.

[ronnykmarshall]

9. Hey Liza!

Give Diana Ross HER Oscar!

Everyone knows she was ROBBED and they only gave it to you cuz you're Judy's kid.

GIVE DIANA ROSS HER OSCAR!!!

[stevielizard]

10. Pheidippedes took a shortcut

Bobby Thomson knew the heat was coming, and the '17 Stanley Cup finals should be played by all surviving members of the Montreal Maroons and New York Americans.

[chiburb]

11. Ya know, you might have a point or two...

In your original thread about poor Helium Hamm, but they kind of get lost in your jingoism.
This whole subject is the SBV's for Bush of the Olympics.

[Pithlet]

13. Let's never correct any errors at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's fair. Then it is never about the competition, but about who is determined the winner, regardless of whether they actually deserved it. Because that is what matters! Making sure the right person gets rewarded is such a distraction, and makes watching sports so unfun!

[Dookus]

14. exactly

and this is NOT about correcting a subjective scoring decision. It's about a clear, objective mistake in the starting value.

It's akin to a judge writing down a score, then the person who enters it into the computer changing the value. Would people defend THAT kind of error?

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

18. A math error

Not a judgement call. Give back the damn medal.

[redqueen]

15. Oh and don't forget Kitajima should be stripped of his as well

His illegal dolphin kick should have disqualified him, and Hansen should have the gold!

Nice threads, btw. :)

[Dookus]

16. The Hamm case

is NOT about "viewing the tape" and making different judging decisions. It's about a clerical error at the outset that changed the outcome.

[redqueen]

17. IMO it's about outrage

Is this the ONLY instance where a low start value was given?

I'd almost be willing to bet good money it isn't.

[Pithlet]

21. So

Because it isn't the only instance, and because outrage isn't always, in your opinion, expressed enough, then it is a non-issue?

[redqueen]

23. It's not a non-issue

It's an example of how people can get themselves worked up into completely unreasonable fits of anger over the most meaningless and COMMONPLACE occurrences.

[Pithlet]

28. It isn't meaningless

It isn't meaningless to the people who participate. It isn't meaningless to the people who watch. It isn't meaningless to give the medal to the person who actually deserved it. The Olympics are a long-standing tradition with deep meaning for a lot of people.

I'm more shocked at the outrage against people who would want to see a wrong righted.

[redqueen]

33. It's meaningless to anyone who knows this isn't rare

what IS rare is for it to become an international scandal.

[Pithlet]

37. Really?

Then all the other international scandals at the Olympics that I've seen through the years must have all been in my head?

And, I think it is irrelevant, anyway. If the wrong medal was awarded, then the wrong medal was awarded. How much of a stink is raised about it is immaterial to the facts.

[Dookus]

22. I'm not outraged

I don't care enough about gymnastics to be outraged. But I think he would have shown incredible sportsmanship to do the right thing and ensure that the right people got the right medals.

[redqueen]

24. He meaning Hamm

not the judges, of course. Right?

[Dookus]

25. Yes

the judges have already been suspended.

As I said elsewhere, a single-minded adherence to the technical rules to the detriment of fairness and sportsmanship is not a very defensible position. Think Florida 2000.

[Piltdown13]

30. No, it wasn't

One other example: Brett McClure's rings routine start value was lowered -- I think by one tenth -- between the preliminaries and the all-around; the same thing may have happened to another American athlete in the team finals. Incidentally, in at least the first case, it was reported that a protest was immediately filed, and the appeal denied.

[joeybee12]

29. YES it is!!!!!!!!!! Two days later they had to look at the tape to show

that an error was made. If they knew it had been made right away, they should have protested RIGHT AWAY!

[Dookus]

31. which

is why I'm saying Hamm shouldn't be forced to surrender the medal. But he should offer to do so.

[joeybee12]

34. Nope, because then you're rewarding South Korea for not following

the rules and by looking for anything to make their case. Remember, their original beef was about their guy who got the silver not getting the gold. They bitched about how Hamm's score was too high. A day later they filed a protest about their Yang's (in third) being too low. Let's review everything and see wher it all falls.

These mistakes are NOT uncommon in gymnastics. Who blew it here are not the judges, but the South Korean coaches who didn't protest immediately. Bunch of fucking poor sports.

[Dookus]

36. I disagree

a clear, objective error was found. It should be fixed. The ideal of fairness is more important than a technical adherence to the time limits imposed for registering a protest.

[Pithlet]

38. You don't know they didn't protest immediately

any more than I do.

You're blaming the people the mistake was made against. It's like blaming the voters in Florida because they should have known that voter fraud was going to happen.

The judges DID make a mistake! What is so outrageous about correcting that? Gosh, it's poor sportsmanship to insist that the right person get the medal?

[Awsi Dooger]

19. The one that irks me is Oakland's 1976 "victory" over New England

In the AFC playoffs. John Madden won one Super Bowl as a head coach, and deserved it about as much as Russia earned that '72 gold medal basketball win over the USA.

The Patriots thrashed Oakland in the regular season, something like 51-7, and were handling them again at Oakland in the playoffs when the zebras decided otherwise, in blatant fashion similar to that Kings/Lakers game 6 a few years ago. Phil Villipiano would hold star tight end Russ Francis on every play without threat of a call, but the slightest touch on an Oakland receiver warranted an automatic flag.

Still, it was 4th down with 30 seconds remaining and Kenny Stabler's desperation pass fell harmlessly out of bounds to end the game, 17-14 New England. Then you get an absurdly late and even more bogus roughing the passer penalty on Sugar Bear Hamilton, rescuing the annointed Raiders. New England was an incredibly talented young team, but never fulfilled expectations after that robbery.

[GregW]

40. Let me get this right ...

The zebras conspired for the Raiders???


BWAAA AH HAAA HA HAAA HAAAA HAAAAA HA HAAAAA HA HAAAA

[Awsi Dooger]

42. Here's a summary, for the young skeptics

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nfl/nengalnd/patriots....

"The last 8 minutes of the game was filled with several controversial plays. Facing a 3rd-and-inches situation just inside the Oakland 30-yard line, Brock jumped offside, forcing the Patriots out of their short-yardage offense. On the next play Grogan attempted to hit Ron Francis over the middle for a drive-sustaining first down, but Raider LB Phil Villipiano all but tackled Francis before the ball arrived, but no penalty was called. After PK John Smith missed a 50-yard FG, Raiders QB Ken Stabler maneuvered his team downfield but faced a desperate 3rd-and-18 situation at the New England 27-yard line. Stabler's pass to former Carl Garrett sailed incomplete, but referee Ben Dreith threw a late flag on Ray Hamilton for roughing the passer. The penalty gave the Raiders a 1sst down on the Pats 12. Aided by 2 more penalties on the Patriots for unsportsmanlike conduct, the Raiders scored the game-winning TD on a 1-yard run by Stabler with 10 seconds remaining."

[CO Liberal]

20. Let's Re-Do The Battle of Little Big Horn

Custer obviously got a bad break....

:-)

[Devil Dog Dem]

43. That B.S. Scottie Pippen foul in Game 5 of the 1994 NBA Finals

Against the Knicks. The Bulls won that game, but that piece of crap ref Hugh Hollins called a foul that didn't happen, thus giving the Knicks 3 foul shots to win the game, and then win the series 4-3.

I want that call set straight!