I just fucking lost it in LBN.

[Bertha Venation]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=774421#774521

And I swear to god, the next person who gets personal about someone I know is going to lose a vital body part.

:grr:

[maveric]

1. But its ok to get personal about someone you dont know?

We all have our own opinons of people. You shouldnt take it too personal.

[Catshrink]

2. It's a "hate the sin, love the sinner" kind of thing.

but then there are totally repugnant people like Cheney, Rummy, Coulter, Novak, et al. I don't know if I could be as mature about it as you are. I hate the aforementioned four.

But I love you BV.

[Bertha Venation]

I don't know those four. You wouldn't find me defending them against

accusations of freakishness and other garbage.

I didn't say I was logical. :shrug:

I know the guy. I know he's not satan. So I'll defend the man from this horseshit.

Do people misunderstand, Catshrink -- I can't be objective right now, I admit it. Do people think I'm defending Ben's politics? Sweet fucking god, no way. If that's what people think then they're not reading.

Thanks for your last line.

[Misunderestimator]

16. I think you're a very sensitive and kind person...

but I am curious how you would react if you DID know Cheney, Rummy, Coulter, or Novak personally. Would you defend them?

[Bertha Venation]

23. again, look at "defend them"

If someone were trying to kill them? Yes.

If someone were publicly humiliating them -- similarly to the prisoners in Iraq & Gitmo? Yes.

If they were being called freaks? Yes.

Would I defend their politics? No. Just as I wouldn't -- don't -- defend Ben's.

[Sagan]

3. Personally, I think it was wrong of you..

Whether you know the man or not, he is involved in extremely repugnant and amoral activities. Enthusiastically involved, from the look of it. If one is an ally and supporter of the Chimp regime, then one is a collaborator and an enabler of the death of almost 1000 young Americans. If one is supporting another four years of the Chimp regime, then obviously one thinks that not enough people have died.

"Freak" is a mild word to use for a person like this.

[Catholic Sensation]

5. fine if that's how one looks at it

if your mother were supporting another four years of George W. Bush, and you said so on here, would you have no problem with me using every perjorative for women to describe her?

[Misunderestimator]

8. Good point... I think

However... if any of my relatives (and that includes about half) are Bush-supporters... I would myself call them freaks. (Not every pejorative, just "freaks.")

[Bertha Venation]

9. if you have to ask that question you're missing the point entirely

The point, once again, is separating the person from his politics.

[Sagan]

12. How do you separate a person from their politics?

Politics encompasses what a person believes in. Now, if you said that he's just this stupid guy who buys into everything FOX says but is otherwise really nice, that's one thing.

But this is an educated person who is enthusiastically supporting the worst regime in American history. He knows what he's doing and he wants to do it.

[Bertha Venation]

25. for a partial answer, see 17. plus . . .

Ben probably honestly believes that everything he did for BC00 and all he does for BC04 is the best work possible for the future of the country. He also probably thinks that the Democratic party doesn't care about the country; that they want only to see Bush fall. He's wrong on both counts. And I wish he were not so smart and powerful. But I'm not going to spit on the man because he helped Bush get in and is still working in that losing cause.

I'm beginning to feel that following certain men's teachings is just too fucking self-destructive. Gandhi & Christ must've had something I don't.

Sleep. That's what they had. Sleep.

'night, all.

[Misunderestimator]

13. Why do you separate the person from the politics?

[Bertha Venation]

17. I'm not sure. Probably only because I know the guy.

And they should be kept separate, IMO. But the notion is obviously laughable to nearly 100% of this community. I'm not going to apologize for who I am, though.

Ben's secretary -- one of my best friends at work -- might hate that I'm a Democrat. Knowing what I do about her life, I don't know why she's a Republican. But she and I lean on each other for emotional support. She's been to my home. I adore her and will consider her a friend forever. I don't care that she's a Republican. I care that she's another human being in the world, and I love her.

I'm good friends with another big GOP guy who came out of the Bush admin, was in practice w/ Ben for a year, then went to be Paul Bremer's IG. Same thing: I loathe his politics, but I like Stuart.

[Misunderestimator]

20. And you shouldn't apologize for it.

There are plenty of people where I work that accept me despite my politics... and they are mundane enough in their conservatism that I accept them. However, someone who actively supports this administration and promotes it and joins in their lies, and possibly convinces others to join them and vote for them... that's something I just couldn't overlook.

[Sagan]

10. but that guy's not her mother...

And in any case, I would myself not only call my mother a freak, but a stupid freak if she supported Chimpy which she does not. She doesn't want her grandsons drafted, she told me.

[Fridays Child]

18. A sexist comment about his mom would demean all women.

If my mother were a B*sh enabler, I'd be the first one to call her insane, a freak, etc., and I wouldn't mind if you did so, as well. But to use a pejorative for women would be completely inappropriate and offensive.

[Bertha Venation]

7. Hmm. I don't think it's ever wrong to defend a person that you know

is being treated unfairly.

Separate the person from the politics. If you can't or won't do that, you'll never understand a single word I say and you may as well click off now.

"Freakish" would be a mild word to use of the politics of a person who supports George W. Bush. I'd apply the word "freakish" to Ben's politics. I want to vomit every time I walk past his office. He's got some scary shit in there. He's been at this -- lawyering for the GOP -- since he was a zygote, apparently. The stuff in his office freaks me.

But "freak" doesn't describe the person I know. No way. He's just a person.

[Liberal Veteran]

15. To be honest, a person IS what he does.

Expecting anyone here to have a high opinion of someone who willingly shills for the GOP and BUSH and the Swift Liars is asking a bit much. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) many do not share you personal knowledge of this person and while you are free to defend him as you see fit, he ranks as collaborator with someone most of us here despise with a passion.

You'd do well to accept that.

[Bertha Venation]

19. Have I asked anyone to have a high opinion of Ben? No.

I confess it would be nice, though, to see people quit shitting all over the human fucking race because we disagree with their politics!

He may be a collaborator at the highest level with the crimes of the Bush administration. If he is, I would expect him to be rooted out with the rest of the idiots in the White House. But he's still a human being.

"You'd do well to accept that." Are you trying to be condescending? Because that's how this sounds, LV. I hope I'm wrong.

[Liberal Veteran]

24. Everyone is someone's friend, brother, son, daughter, parent, etc...

That's a fact of life.

Now unless you can sit there and tell me you have never shit on someone who you didn't know because you disagreed with their politics, position, etc. then you have no call to get bent out of shape because others don't share your personal friendship with this person.

Your hands are not clean in getting personal about people you didn't know personally either.

Do these words sound familiar?

"Jesus Christ on toast! That guy is such an asshole . . . he makes my ass want to chew tobacco."

They should. They came from you. Now, I realize you don't personally know the person, but I bet Jenna and Barb would have a similar reaction to your saying that about their father as you did about what others said about your aquaintance.

He that is among you that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.

I've been guilty of it. You've been guilty of it. We all have.

That's a fact. Your personal experience with this person notwithstanding, you can't expect others to share in your opinion as though we were part of a hive mind.

[Misunderestimator]

4. I admire your ability to see past someone's ignorance...

But I could never separate the person from his politics the way you do... at least not these days.

:hi:

[freetobegay]

6. Ben Gisnberg is a fucking hack for the Repukes

& I would like nothing better than to see him burn in hell.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. Would it be better if it was S.O.B. or creep or bastard or RW shill or...?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense that this SPECIFIC word, "freak", hit the wrong chord with you.

My spider sense goes further: it says it may be because "freak" is often used to insult gay people.

Am I talking total BS? Or partial BS?

[Catch22Dem]

14. How do we know who knows who? n/t

[Bertha Venation]

21. I've just learned something very valuable.

Say something that is perceived as "sticking up" for the Bush administration, or anyone who supports it, and you're painted with the same brush. God forbid my comments should be read completely. I took pains to state that I keep the two separate.

Perception blinds people. "Hmm . . . maybe this Bertha Venation has been an extremely talented disruptor. Lemme check her profile . . . where's the tombstone?!"

I've started a shit storm that, I confess, I can't continue with tonight. I'm sorry that if you're looking for a reply to your post, you'll have to wait. For now, I have to get some sleep so I can go back to work on the 3rd floor tomorrow, the GOP power floor, surrounded by my Kerry bumper stickers & rainbow flag & photo of my beloved which offends some people & picture of the first gay couple married in San Francisco and my "GEORGE BUSH - YOU'RE FIRED" sign.

'night, all.

[greatauntoftriplets]

22. Have a good night, Bertha.

My only sister and most of her family are Republicans. But they are still family.

[davsand]

26. GOP or DNC--it is a difference in views--nothing more.

Bertha, try not to let it get to you. Something I learned a LONG time ago about politics is exactly what you say--the people are NOT the same as the political party they are active with.

I'd be mighty pissed off if somebody said I was just a Dem and dismissed me because of it. I sure don't intend to show that same disrespect to anybody else based only on what party they belong to.

I am dead serious here, a couple of years ago I was standing there at a parade form up with the Dems and we were right next to the GOP entry. A couple of the guys I work with are elected GOP officials. We traded some good natured cracks back and forth about walking with the other side during the parade. No big deal--ya know? We are all buddies at work and we just happen to disagree about the government and the role it should play in peoples' lives. These are NICE guys that I disagree with on politics--kinda like you disagree with somebody about being Catholic or Protestant or Pagan.

I actually had one of the Dems give me a raft of crap about being "nice" to my office buddies. I got told that if I like the Republicans so much maybe I should become one.

Now, I've been an active Dem party member--hell, I've helped elect a LOT of our local Dem officials--and I have paid my dues out front as an honest to gawd liberal. I hold a politically appointed office, that, in part, is due to the amount of time and energy I've put into the party.

I also work in government along side Republicans EVERY FREAKING DAY of my life. If I didn't have the ability to get along with these guys I'd be less than effective in my office. EVERYTHING I accomplish for the people of this county is because I am able to work with people--not just Dem party members.

I got told I was less of A Dem, somehow, because I get along with everybody. It pissed me off.

After I got done chewing that woman a new asshole, I calmed down enough to explain to her that part of what is wrong in our country is the blanket demonization that both parties practice. We short change the people that elect us when we do that. We hurt America when we immediately stop listening when the other party speaks.

I walked away and wondered at how fucked up my local party can be. She later apologized, (after she found out exactly who I am and what I've done) but I refuse to deal with her any more. I feel that strongly about it.

My point in all this, is don't ever apologize for holding onto a personal opinion about somebody--anybody. Politics is one thing that should not come between thinking people.


Laura

[Mick Knox]

27. I thought you were off base..

Just because you happen to know a certain repuke doesnt mean that he is more human than any other repuke.