Yuppie disgust Thread: Why Wont Women Identify as Feminists?????????????

[La Lioness Priyanka]

Now poor women or illiterate women not identifying as feminists I can understand.

But women who obviously benefit from the work feminists do and always say "well i am not a feminist" make me want to throw up :puke:


Just a rant....about a stupid stupid yuppie boss of mine...she is not a feminist yet can vote, has had an abortion, and gets the same benefits as other executives at my company....

[JohnKleeb]

1. feminists are a broad group as far as I see it

Your boss is a dumb dumb btw.

[delete_bush]

5. Good one!

..a "broad group"

[JohnKleeb]

7. well they are

Like I dont agree with the hardline feminists on some things like pornography, certain words, I think that feminism by and large is a great thing, and I find it sickening that women got the right to vote only in my grandmother's lifetime, she was 8 when the amendment became offiical.

[Book Lover]

33. Your trivia for the day: Did you know

that before the adoption of the federal constitution, women in New Jersey *did* have the right to vote?

[JohnKleeb]

115. I am a history nerd of course I knew that

[Book Lover]

126. I am a die-hard feminist

and I only learned it when I was working on one of my History titles in the past few weeks. What a nutty world...

[wryter2000]

2. It's more of the RW stealing a word

The same way they made "liberal" into a curse word they've made "feminist" a nasty word. But you're right...it's sickening.

[7th_Sephiroth]

yes they have painted the word feminist

with the thoughts of militant lesbians who will shoot any man they want, and true feminists, please, enough with the "men dumb, women smart" crap i see everywhere, its sexist

[jedicord]

3. I'm PROUD to be a feminist!

I've said this line before on DU, but it begs to be repeated:

"The difference between Women's Libbers and Feminists is that Women's Libbers wish they had a penis and Feminists collect them."

Can't remember the originator of this quote, but it's a keeper!

[judge_smales]

19. Wish I

understood this.

:-/

[redqueen]

22. Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't get it.

:hi:

[jedicord]

38. Basically, WL's yearn to be a man and get the same...

respect, etc. men do.

Feminists eat male misogynists for lunch. They feel they can get the respect, etc. as a woman.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. i am sorry but i think

i deserve the same respect whether i am butch or femme. which is what that argument boils down to.

[jedicord]

44. Exactly, that's the point, and why I'm proud to be a feminist.

Admittedly, it's tougher to get ahead in the work world as a woman, but it can be done. Also admittedly, some women in the work world bring women back 20 years and prove to men that we aren't capable of getting the job done. As an example: Women getting emotional, cat fighting, etc.

This was a joke that I understand and think is funny. I love to tell it to guys and watch their sphincters cringe. My laughing at this joke doesn't mean I'm out to get men's penises, or hurt them in any way. It means I'm strong and proud to be a woman.

[redqueen]

47. WTF does 'cat fighting' mean? n/t

[jedicord]

51. Uh oh - did I use a colloquialism? I'm from the South, so I probably did.

It's when women start getting into pissing matches over trivial things. In every office I've worked in there has been at least 2 women who pay attention to what every other woman is doing and pit them against each other. It can get pretty nasty, I avoid those kind of people.

BTW, "pissing matches" are when people try to piss further than the others, in other words, outdo each other in an argument.

[redqueen]

56. Um, no.

What you did was imply that when women do this it's somehow different than when men do it.

*sigh*

[jedicord]

69. Face reality.

It is different, and that's why I say *some* women push us back 20 years by acting in this stereotypical way. And using the term "cat fighting" is descriptive. Admit it - you knew what I meant.

Men have their own stereotypical faults. Know what I mean by the "small dick syndrome"? Not all men do this, but the few that do continue the stereotype.

[redqueen]

70. lol

Thanks for putting me in my place!

You're so right... women having pissing contests is soooo different than men doing it.

And yeah... when they 'act like women' by doing so, they set us back... like, totally.

Ego problems are ego problems, regardless of the type of genitals the demonstrator was born with.

[jedicord]

73. I'm not trying to put you in your place, wish I could put vocal

emotions in my posts. I know exactly where you're coming from. I hate stereotypes, and yes men are VERY good at pissing contests.

It just drives me nuts when one rotten apple ruins the whole bunch, ya know? Many men don't notice all the strong, intelligent, non-cat fighting, capable women. They do notice the one "chick" in the bunch that continues the stereotype and "proves" their point that ALL women are incapable.

I use tired, trite phrases like "small dick syndrome" because they describe the sterotype. I don't mean to offend.

Think about it, most Republicans are perfectly fine people, if a bit misguided politically.

It's the few "neo-conservative right wing nut jobs" that forms our opinion of all "Repukes".

[redqueen]

74. Ah ok... I get what you're saying now

Peace. :)

[jedicord]

78. Peace back!

[petronius]

101. I get the joke now after the explanation

but I have to say that I would interpret it very differently if I was seeing it in a vacuum. Basically, my initial reading of it is that WLs are pathetic creatures with penis envy and feminists hate men to the point of mutilation. Is it possible that the men who cringe are actually cringing because they think you've just said something very anti-women, and they don't know how to respond?

By the way, I call myself a feminist, but I must not be a very good one - there's only one penis in my collection...:)

[Cheswick2.0]

46. I know what you are saying and agree

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. what on earth does that mean?

[judge_smales]

4. Because

identifying yourself as a feminisit may require you to take a stand and maybe have convictions that become inconvinient at some future time. Too risky for some cowards, uh, er, I mean some people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i completely agree with you

[smirkymonkey]

89. Yes, I think I was trying to say that in another post, but

was unable to articulate the sentiment as well as you.

Part of the problem for straigh women is that they think they will never get a man if they cop to being a feminist.

I have struggled with that a lot, but am now at the point where I don't want any man for whom my feminism might be a problem.

[Mizmoon]

6. Feminism all mixed up with lesbianism

thanks to Ms. Magazine. I have no problem with homosexuality, but the brand that Ms. often talked about was very anti-male. I don't dislike men, I love them - I just want my place in the world. Ms. got lost somehow.

This is also the same point at which feminism abandoned women of color.

Feminism needs to change, not the women it wants to represent.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

12. This is also the same point at which feminism abandoned women of color.

that actually was the starting point not somewhere in the middle


lesbianism is not an "ism" but merely a sexual orientation.

i have never known lesbians to hate men with even half the venom that straight non-feminist women seem to hate them with

[Mizmoon]

25. I incorrectly implied that they did

and re-reading I see that's not exacly what I meant. I'm referring to several articles I read in Ms. where they featured conversations with lesbian women that were insulting to men. They specifically said that their unhappy encounters with men in their lives (including dads or lack thereof) that had attracted them to be lesbians. I realize this is not in line with the reality that women are lesbians because that's who they are, but those articles really were there.

I do not buy into the lie that all lesbian women hate men, and I'm sorry it came off that way.

[noiretextatique]

34. how many articles?

no offense, but a few articles doesn't seem to me a sound basis on which to form an opinion of lesbians or or MS magazine.

[noiretextatique]

31. actually, talk to STRAIGHT women for real male-bashing

most lesbians aren't invested enough in men to care as much as straight women do.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. i completely agree

in fact the more stereotypically straighter the women the more venomous their opinion of men seem to be. Now not all girly women but most have a very low opinion of men.

[noiretextatique]

37. this has been my experience

i am fairly neutral to men (most of my male acquaintances are gay), but my two sisters (one twice divorced, the other STILL bitter about the man she divorced 12 years ago)...now THEY can do some serious male-bashing :D
i agree with what you wrote...some straight women have very, very low opinions of men. so low...i wonder why they aren't lesbians.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. right there with ya

i think we bi/lesbian women are either not invested in straight men so dont care or we realize that we can equally destructive relationships with women as well as men.

We may also know a better type of men. In my adult life the only men i know are deeply invested in feminism. Cannot be said of my straight women aquaintances who can barely call themselves feminists let alone date feminists.

[Cheswick2.0]

49. If it were a choice some of us might be

It doesn't seem to be the type of thing you can chose to be.

[noiretextatique]

62. actually...i think there is an element of choice

if one can free one's self from the social pressures, expectations, and so on. in my view, what is called sexual preference is not exclusively biological...and i know this isn't a popular opinion here. but i think social and cultural influences do a lot to shape all sorts of preferences, including sexual preference.
the choice to be ALONE is one i think many women are choosing...certainly more than in my mother's generation.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. I agree that for some women that is true

I have seen some evidence of it.

[smirkymonkey]

119. I have chosen to be alone

- but not lonely - for the past few years, and the more I hear of my friend's relationships and marriages, the happier I am with my decision.

As soon as I let go of the "need" to have a man in my life (which I belive is largely societally manufactured, with a large component that has to do with economic freedom), my life opened up in wonderful ways.

The "what will men think of this?" bullshit completely dropped from my consciousness and I feel that for the first time I am becoming completely human, no longer crushed by the roles I adopted and sacrifices I needed to make to feel accepted by mainstream culture.

I have not entirely given up on having a relationship with a man, but I will NEVER again twist myself into uncomfortable shapes to accommodate one.

[RobinA]

59. The Difference

being that your average girly woman who male bashes is married to a male. It's OK to bash men while being married to one, just so you aren't a unmarried feminist who male bashes.

I am an unmarried hetero who doesn't male bash. The worst male bashing I have ever heard came from a group of married women lounging around a pool one day. I actually got up and left it got so disgusting. However, these same woman would not define themselves as feminists, because feminists supposedly hate men. Go figure.

[noiretextatique]

64. again, i agree...it's mostly the attached ones

and i might add: unhappily attached ones who seem the biggest male-bashers.

[arcane1]

76. though sadly, that bashing and hating doesn't begin to match...

the bashing and hating from straight men toward women. Though sadly, that's still considered "normal" :evilfrown:

:hi: stranger!

[noiretextatique]

80. hey there arcance1...i agree that female-bashing is very prevalent

and not just among STRAIGHT MEN. i had a gay man recently tell me that male homo love is the highest and most pure form of love...and all other forms of love are inferior :crazy:
of course, i am not privvy to a lot of what men say and think about women, but surprisingly, some staight men feel it's safe to confide in me :eyes:
i haven't seen around these parts much of late...hope all is well with you. i keep threatening to have another party...this time i'll give more than a few days notice :hi:

[arcane1]

85. you don't want to know.... "boys will be boys" and all that

and it seems to me as if it is only getting worse. Especially for the juvenile set, women have become portrayed more and more as mere objects of amusement for men. And considering the things I have heard over the years, from men, single, married, whatever, it's no wonder I cannot identify with 90% of them :puke:

Women have a long way to go before they can humiliate and degrade women on the level and acceptibility that men have spent generations mastering :evilfrown:


I'm doing great, been too happy lately to handle the daily DU rage for the most part :)
Let me know about the next party, and count me in! (assuming I know about it sooner than the following day :silly: )

:hi:

[smirkymonkey]

121. Exactly, it is that "normalizing" of hatred toward

women that has always astounded me. The slightest criticism of men as a group arouses a huge backlash, yet the misogyny and sexism of many (not all) men is never questioned by society.

Kind of like racism, the dominant culture only notices when it it directed toward THEM!

[smirkymonkey]

86. I would have to agree...

there is a lot of buried rage in straight women, and the reason it doesn't come out in public very often is because many women are afraid of how it would change their world if they actually copped to it.

A lot of us still fear our own anger, I am getting more comfortable with mine and realize it is a process I have to go through before I feel empowered and ready to deal with my issues in a productive way.

Anger, if acknowledged, can be a powerful force for change. If repressed, however it can destroy it's host as surely as any misogyny from the outside. Sorry, don't mean to go off - I could go on forever on this topic but I won't.

[noiretextatique]

99. you are right...it is anger: and mostly righteous anger

and not gratuitous "male-bashing"...that i used that term makes me want to :puke: i love your comments...so right on about the anger turning inward and creating dis-ease and bitterness. i watched my sister turn into someone i no longer recognized as she gave ten years of her life to pursuing her pathetic ex for child support...which he never paid because he never has a job. i tried to get her to see that he hadn't EVER been any different, and that he would never change. i told her that putting all of that energy into him, instead of bettering her own financial condidition (like by getting an advanced degree) could only lead to more diasappointment and bitterness. she was "right" of course....but the price she paid...and continues to pay. i bet her anger could fuel her house for another ten years.
thanks for setting me straight, so to speak :D

[smirkymonkey]

93. Actually, I never thought of that, but

straight women who are not feminists do seem to have more seething rage toward men than other women.

I think it's because they feel trapped in a paradigm (get married, have kids, be happy, blah, blah, blah) which depends upon the cooperation of men for it's fullfilment.

They don't take responsibility for their lives and project all their impotent rage on men.

[noiretextatique]

104. even you don't have a framework to understand your condition

you are still affected by it, and must be cognizant of it...at least on some level. i have seen several women trapped in the cycle of denial about the reality of their relationships with men...from physical abuse to more subtle dysfuntions. a friend who told me a year ago that her husbancd brutally raped her is STILL living with the bastard. after she told me about the rape, she told me that he didn't "realize" it was rape, and he was sorry for it. i told her the next time it happened :eyes: she should press charges so he could go to jail and get educated about what rape is.

[smirkymonkey]

116. ? Not sure what you mean

I am straight, but a feminist. My anger used to feel more impotent when I was in my 20's and I was not really "out" about it (still playing the game), but also not taking responsibility for it and projecting all my rage on to men - blaming men for all my problems (why I didn't have a better job, relationship, more money, trapped in a cycle of trying to please and resenting every minute of it.)

I still have a lot of anger about a lot of things, but I take some responsibility for it, although I am not hesitant to point out injustice and sexism when I see it. I am not where I would like to be yet, but I am much stronger and feel more empowered to do something. Not just in my own life, but for women in general.

As women wake up, it takes all our courage to face the fact that "we're not in Kansas anymore" and that in accepting the truth about our situation as women will require immmense inner strength. We will need courage and fortitude to change the path we're on and get out from under the oppresive nature of a sexist culture.

Oops Noiretbleu, on edit, I reread your first line and realize that if there was an "if" in there ("even if you" instead of "even you") your post makes complete sense! Sorry! :)

[noiretextatique]

130. sorry...i leave out words a lot..s'ok

i was generalizing...not talking about you :yourock:

[tigereye]

112. but Ms also raised a lot of questions that needed to be raised

I think feminism has tried to reclaim a lot of that territory... I think the "dislike of men" that it was branded with was unfair. I think the early feminists had to fight back a lot by emphasizing their gifts and femaleness and I think that set a lot of people off.

One common saying from that time was " A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." I think the intent was to say that women could exist independently of men, which was unusual at the time.

I think some of the seminal feminist works, like de Beauvoir's The Second Sex and Friedan's Feminine Mystique, illustrate some of the development of feminist thinking that was later misinterpreted. Some say de Beauvoir's work was actually mistranslated, as well.

[histohoney]

8. Be glad

she doesn't want to be called a feminist.
Do you really want some one you think of as "stupid stupid yuppie" to go around representing herself as a feminist?

[lpbk2713]

10. The world would be a far better place without yuppie types.

As well as all other parasites.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. yuppies are social parasites

and need a new dress code. blue shirt and khakis are really getting old.

[Shananigans]

11. Definition of a faminist

According to dictionary.com the definition of a feminist is:

feminist

adj : of or relating to or advocating equal rights for women; "feminist critique" n : a supporter of feminism

So basically, a feminist is just one who supports equal rights for women. Why WOULDN'T you be a feminist???

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. thats my point

[Shananigans]

66. No no no! I didn't mean why wouldn't YOU be a feminist...

It was a rhetorical question aimed at the masses. Sorry if I misled you. I was just thinking that there are many people who don't know the literal definition of "feminist" therefore deny that they are one. In reality I would say that most people ARE feminists, but just don't know it.

When confronted with the definition, I would suspect many people would concede and admit that they are a feminist (men included). But most just don't self identify as such.

[tigereye]

113. exactly!

never understood why the term got such a bad rap. It makes me mad.

[smirkymonkey]

123. "If you are a woman, and not a feminist, you're a masochist"

Don't know if that's the exact quote, but it is attributed to Gloria Steinem

[redqueen]

13. I may be totally wrong on this, but...

I think there are a lot of people yearning for something more than just an 'us' thing, because they perceive groups like feminists as being 'special interests' and therefore inherently unfair. I personally know that women's rights are critical to defend, but many others seem to be too shallow to see it. They only see the issues the media allows through the filter put on ABC/NBC/CBS etc... and those issues all point to a basic unfairness in pursuing rights for one group while ignoring others. It seems logical to me that other organizations pick up for those other groups, but somehow people have become convinced that any 'special interest' group is necessarily bad because they only defend rights for one group.

Sad, but the stupid still outnumber the smart.

[liontamer]

16. I think women who like girly things

like shoes somehow assume they are not feminists because real feminists don't like shoes. The logic is stupid. It's essentially a triumph of don't be too (fill in blank here) because boys don't like girls who (blank). If you like boys and want them to like you don't be so (blank) or hide it if you can't help it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. i like high heels`

and am a feminist...so there!!

also much hotter than non-feminist in high heels.

[demnan]

18. This is an interesting discussion

about a sad phenomenon. I see both sides being at fault. Yes I think radical feminism turned off a lot of main stream people, people who by rights should be feminists, I also remember a lot of right wing rhetoric that helped this along.

The important thing here is not in a word. If you asked this woman if she believes in equal pay for equal work, I'm sure she'd say yes. That's the important thing.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

20. i disagree with you

This is also the same point at which feminism abandoned women of color: its not the be all and end all of feminism. no point saying i'll get equal pay if i meet every single obstruction to get to the position.

i am a radical feminist and i think most people have no idea of what that term even means.

[Paragon]

21. Just identify yourself as lionesspriyanka.

Trust me, it's more than enough. :loveya:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. lionesspriyanka is sick of ny yuppies

and cant wait to abandon them....

[Paragon]

27. I have space...

...in a crappy one-bedroom apartment in Cincinnati. :silly:

No, stay there - as much as I lust over ya, I wouldn't want to curse you by having you live in this conservative hellhole.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. lionesspriyanka does not do midwest or cold very well

but thank-you for the offer :hug:

[Paragon]

30. because...it's so warm in NY in the winter?

;-)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. but atleast i can say i live in manhattan

and not cincinnati. lionesspriyanka is also a snob :P :P

[SarahB]

24. Because the right wing has managed to successfully stigmatize the word.

I consider myself a feminist. I grew up with a Ms. Magazine on the coffee table until I was about 14 and my mom decided she was anti-choice/pro-life and couldn't reconcile her views. :eyes: I think most people don't understand the historical context of what things used to be life for women and therefore, the word doesn't have the same meaning. It amazes me too how so many liberal men just don't 'get it' as well. So many stereotypes associated with the word as well. I'm strait and like you, very femme (plus I'm a mommy), but because this word has been managed to be so stigmatized by the right, most people wouldn't even grasp the concept that I am a feminist and what that means because it's been so stereotyped.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. while i agree with you

i disagree that educated women should not have the intelligence to tell the difference between reality and media-spin.

[SarahB]

42. Of course they should

"Should" doesn't always mean things. I know of someone with a graduate degree that still believes in creationism. Sometimes people let some type of emotion weigh over logic.

[ProfessorGAC]

43. I Think SarahBelle Has Pinned It Perfectly

It isn't that much different than the reason people run from the liberal tag! The right wing propaganda machine has turned it into a dirty word.

Same with feminist. Or environmentalist, for that matter. They have created a perjorative connotation where none should exist, but it stuck.

I think we need a "word squad" on the left, as well. I personally can't think of any worse word to call someone than "conservative".
The Professor

[tjwash]

28. The same reason a lot of us here don't identify ourselves as Liberals.

Because the RW corporate media has so thoroughly demonized and twisted the meanings of the words, that people are afraid to identify with the group. Limbaugh started it in the late 1980’s with the term "feminazi", when he was in Sacramento working for KFBK (the same station, by the way, where he got popular by playing laugh and cheering tracks, as he read off names of gay men who had died of AIDS.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. cu called me a feminazi once

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

48. LMAO

Yeah... some obscure author of that book is the arbiter of what REAL feminism is... not millions of women.

:eyes:

[DoktorGreg]

55. Actually not obscure at all...

Here is the authors (Riane Eisler) website
http://www.partnershipway.org/

Her work is the foundation of modern feminism, and she spins a good yarn, but moderated her work is not. Please study her work, it is important to you no matter how you feel on this issue.

I happen to be a man, and like it. She want's to do away with that(men), in the sorts of ways that you boil a frog.

OMG she is not at all obscure, Chalice and Blade is taught as an introduction to feminism in a lot of universites womens studies programs.

[redqueen]

58. Dude, please

That organization you linked to has a cheap-o cheezy answering machine...

Perhaps you'd like to cite which of the many, many universities are using that book in their courses?

[smirkymonkey]

127. Her work is the "foundation" of modern feminism???

Umm, the book in question was published in 1988! Ever hear of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Lucretia Mott, Alice Paul, Mary McLeod Bethune, or even later, Simone de Beauvoir & Betty Friedan?

C & B is hardly the seminal text on feminism. Do some research.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

50. so there is one book on feminist that you have read

and now you know feminism is NOT about equality? its about domination of the male .......

umm sure....i believe you are the authority on feminism...i bow to you

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. in addition

i have read more than one book on feminism. taken a few classed on feminism and written critique on feminism. so yes i do know feminism. she is my best friend, she is why i can vote, and demand justice if i am raped, its why i am not officially a second class citizen.

[DoktorGreg]

57. You dont even realize

Your wiccan religion was more or less invented by this lady.

Hahahahaha

[redqueen]

60. You're really embarassing yourself.

You should stop, really.

[DoktorGreg]

75. Actually...

You dont know what you are talking about. None of you have offered a critique of original post, you have only hurled insults.

I am not going to sit here and exchange tit for tat with three-four people determined to be ignorant.

I merely gave a reason why a person might not want to identify with feminism. Take it or leave it. My guess you guys are gonna leave it, but then you still wont understand why people dont want to identify with feminism, will you.

Here is a hint, it is more complex than "The neo-cons demonized the word" or "Yuppies suck" the only other reasons this thread has offered...

AND you had my original post deleted, even though it was factual, and not ment to be offensive. How democratic.

[redqueen]

77. Do you really know of any universities using this?

Or did you just make that up?

I notice you didn't respond to my post where I pointed out that the organization you claim is so influential is for some strange reason using a cheap-o answering machine instead of having ... oh... I dunno... a staff or something... or maybe even a good voice mail service.

Care to comment on that, perchance?

[DoktorGreg]

84. Well Im not finding many text books at all

For any classes at any universities but

http://www.bostonconservatory.edu/programs/liberal_arts_courses.pdf
Scroll down to unit 203

http://www.fsw.ucalgary.ca/course_outlines_old/Fall%202002/Calgary/367L01F02.pdf
In this one it is part of a social workers study program

http://www.drury.edu/multinl/story.cfm?ID=2137&NLID=135
A seminar she did at some university

http://www.bigspeak.com/riane-eisler.html
It costs 10k-20k to arrange her as a speaker

Or just google her name yourself... It gets 10s of thousands of hits, because she is so sought after.

[redqueen]

91. So... one university... in Canada?

And an arts school in Boston? That's it? Pardon me if I don't feel particularly threatened by their use of this book.

I haven't read it so I can't speak to the claims you made in your original post (now deleted), but it kind of ruins your argument that somehow this person's book is being used to instruct women in how to hate men and take over the world.

And your theory that her work is the 'foundation of feminism' or however you put it is suspect as well, since it appears the book was written in '88.

Sure she may get big fees, who cares? Lots of people do whom I don't agree with, and who are also not insidiously corrupting our youth. I don't see how this fits with your theory that she's the co-founder of feminism itself, either.

So... can you make a better case or not?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

98. infact fringe leaders often get big money to appear somewhere

to sprout their ideology....controversy sometimes pays quite well

[DoktorGreg]

103. ok so you really have no interest in discussing this with me

I already knew that... Just shout the guy whom isn't PC down.

Did you ever have any intent to discuss this topic when you made the thread or were you just looking for synchopathy?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

111. i am willing to discuss these matter with liberals

not you

[DoktorGreg]

100. A better case for what?

In her follow up books she describes humane ways to get to that society. That is... in some far off date men eventually peter out and disappear, because they are no longer needed...

Doesn't that idea perplex you at all? I know it does me.

In the meantime her ideas are being used in schools and whatnot, and weather you accept it or not, she is a hugely influential. Google does not even begin to touch the knowledge and thought throughout academia.

Did you read the reviews of Chalice and Blade on Amazon yet? Most people regard reading the book as a life changing experience. I know it has radically altered my views. For example, I no longer accept that Feminism is really about peace love and justice for all.

Also... Anybody wiccan would be interested in this book, because it is fundamentally about those early civilizations that engaged in goddes worship.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

102. i think your problem is that you were NEVER a feminist

found a book on feminism that you now can use to say that this is why i hate feminist and feminism

quit wasting our time with you inane thoughts

[redqueen]

105. A case to support your original assertions

The one from your original post - that her version of feminism is the TRUE feminism; and you later assertion that her work is somehow widely influential because it's used as a text in classrooms in universities.

You provided two very weak examples of universities using this text, and have still not explained how she is supposed to be the arbiter of the ONE TRUE feminism... and you've consistently failed to address WHY this oh so important organization she leads uses a cheesy cheap-o answering machine, if they're so damned influential.

Yeah, I read the reviews on amazon... some good, some bad. Just like most stuff.

This really isn't worth my time. No one can say I didn't give you a chance.

Hasta.

[arcane1]

109. why do you keep assuming we are all wiccan?

:shrug:

[DoktorGreg]

118. Well not everyone...

I was assuming that lionesspriyanka was because of her use of wiccan symbolism in her screen name. Maybe I was wrong... But I do know there is a definite Goddess worship scene in DU.

My only point there is, you should read this book you are into Goddess worship, because it would be interesting.

But they were not interested in talking to me, only shouting me down, and proving me wrong. Thus proving my original point, which has been deleted... Alas, so I don't even get to enjoy the ironic humor in it all. Which is why the original post was deleted in the first place I suspect.

But back to the original thread, I would say the yuppie scum don't want to be associated with feminism for reasons of feminist intractability. And doing things like calling reasonable people haters.

Ah well, I guess in the end feminists don't really want to know what contemporary feminism is all about. They simply don't want a male perspective on feminism, which is their right. But it is also why feminism is being marginalized. But that is a whole different debate...

[arcane1]

120. wiccan symbolism in her screen name?

ok....

I'm not really into goddess worship, however. Also, I fail to see how this one book, less than 20 years old, becomes in your opinion the bible of feminism

even Hitler said he was doing god's work, it doesn't make it true

funny how your "male perspective on feminism" is all based on a single wacky book written by a woman :silly:

plenty of men have posted their perspective here, I think the unwillingness you find is an unwillingness to listen to strawman arguments

[jukes]

128. DoktorGreg

1. her symbolism in her nick is Indian (the sub-continent, not indigenous american).

2. you've tried to equate feminism w/ wicca, thus:
a. displaying your ignorance of both topics.
b. muddying the waters

3. good moles aren't *too* demonstrative of their prejudices; nor do they lack subtlety.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. this is not a board to preach about 1st amendment rights

we only want progressive and liberals here. i believe you agreed to that when you signed up.

[DoktorGreg]

92. My only contention ever was...

Many people are ignorant of what feminism actually is. You don't like that. Fine. I don't care. It is not whatever you want to define it as, which is exactly what this thread has done.

So I declare for now on, whenever you are in DU, feminisem means equality and peace and love for all. Amen. All Hail the Goddess.

However to your yuppy co-worker, it obviously means something else. Why do suppose that is? How could a reasonable person be against equality and peace and love? I think pretty much all Americans support that if the weather is right.

Rather than just determining a reason by outcome like... Yuppies are nasty, or the word has been co-opted, I challenge you to actually read this book, and come to your own conclusion.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062502891/103-4894179-6402230?v=glance

My only contention all along has been, feminism does not mean what you think it means. Feminism is about radical fundament change to our society, not just satements of fiat, "ok we are all equal now". Its not that easy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

95. even the best causest have insane people

does not mean the cause itself is insane. you found one book on feminisim that we all who identify as feminists dont agree with, yet we all identify as feminists.


why is this book so important you? when those of us who are feminists and have read more than one book on feminism thinks its either fringe thinking or just merely reactionary?

[jukes]

106. why do you keep

hashing your metaphors?

we're discussing feminism here, not wicca. i'm an atheist, & a feminist. feminism has nothing to do w/ the occult, nor books w/ obviously belabored fertility symbols in the title.

it isn't about peace, or love or crystal blue persuasion.

it's about respect, equal pay/equal work, equal opportunity/equal talent. it's about de-disenfranchising over 1/2 of the people in the world based on the placement of their organs.

[arcane1]

107. ah I see, much like Christianity is all about killing babies

makes sense to me

killing babies, fetuses, and the pregnant women who bear them? Spare not even the fruit of the womb, that sort of thing?

it's in the book, after all

[Career Prole]

129. Dude, I know many feminists.

I'm a feminist. I'm a liberal with two daughters, which gives me three excellent reasons for being a feminist. I don't need to read that book to know that it has nothing to do with feminism any more than I have to read "The Enemy Within" to know I'm not the enemy. No one's buying that crap, either literally or figuratively, so shouldn't you just quit trying to sell it?

[jukes]

82. No, it isn't

it's all about propaganda. masquerading as a liberal doesn't alter a stultifying perspective.

i'm a male. i'm a feminist. feminism is actually JUST about equality.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

83. go jukes!!!

in my opionion male feminists are highly under rated

[jukes]

94. often ignored or discounted

by the opposition; it's hard to call feminists as a group castrators when many of us have penises.

blows their villainizing & labeling right out of the water.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

97. exactly. feminist men rock!

much sexier than stupidity is too...

[liontamer]

65. from feminism to wicca

huh? all feminists are witches now? and we all owe everything to this one woman. And yet none of us seem to think she is that important. Only you in your infinite wisdom have read the one book that shapes all our lives. Do you see any room for error in your logic?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. a few witches burning gets a little toasty here

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

90. I gotta find why you always go when the wind blows

[La Lioness Priyanka]

96. cos i am small and the wind carries me

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. hahaha

you realize your stupidity was invented by your parents right?

[arcane1]

81. LMAO!!

watch out, she will put a hex on thee! :eyes: your credibility is shrinking so fast it's a blur

and that's putting aside the fact that wicca pre-dates European Christianity

I suppose "this lady" more or less invented atheism too :silly:

[smirkymonkey]

125. Herr Doktor, you obviously don't know what you are

talking about, so move along.

[Book Lover]

53. Don't YOU know anythng about feminism???

The Chalice and the Blade is ancient in terms of feminist theory. Let me start you off with something simple, Gerda Lerner's The Creation of Feminist Consciousness: From the Middle Ages to 1870 A.D., OUP 1993.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. sounds good to me

no...wait a secound I like sex. Damn, can we still have the part about delegating men to menial roles in society? I think it's y'alls turn huh?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

63. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Thats a good Rush! Now do Ann Coulter!

:D

[redqueen]

71. Dude!

I love you!

:loveya:

[smirkymonkey]

87. She's a stupid coward!

She will claim all the benefits of feminism's legacy but will not own up to the responsibilty of honoring her benefactors.

Give her a smack for me! Thanks!

Fear, we are all imprisoned by fear until we face it and move through it. Too many people never get to that point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. exactly..hence i point out why i despise female yuppies even more

benefit from those of us who are vocal...get your benefits..then pretend it came from nowhere

[tigereye]

108. I have been a feminist all my adult life

I don't respect people who run from the term, because they seem to have forgotten how long it took for women to get any power or control over their lives in the first place, at least here in America.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

110. no respect to the struggles to get what they take for granted now

like log cabin republicans...just crass!

[tigereye]

114. yes. I don' t think women should have to "bow down" to

the "founding mothers," necessarily. Although I was very impressed with both Steinem and Freidan when I saw them speak years ago. But it is good to know your history! I don't understand the Log Cabin Reps. either. That makes no sense to me.

[Beware the Beast Man]

117. I agree. "Feminist" is a very vague term.

But as of late, the Repuke right have contorted the term to signify the stereotypical-and I mean to put this in the most stereotypical terms possible to make a point- "man-hating fem-dyke" variety. If it wasn't for the women's rights movements, neither sex would have come as far as they have today (I'm addressing all the sesitive guys here, too).

[KamaAina]

122. I'll bet your boss enjoys having a credit card in her own name

That's one my (feminist) mom told me about the bad old days. The credit cards had to be in the husband's name. :puke:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

124. like in saudi arabia

also probably like being able to drive