Question for religious skeptics

[ParisFrance]

What is your stand on the appirations of Mary ? This would prove that Mary existed thus God, Jesus, and the bible. Mary predicted WW2 and the attempted assasination of the pope on the very date.

[unslinkychild1]

1. dillusional idiots? n/t

[LosinIt]

2. keep telling yourself that story if it makes you feel good

I, on the other hand, am following the lead of Thomas Paine. (You may have heard of him??) "To do good if my religion."

[ParisFrance]

3. Yes, I have heard of Thomas Paine and know not him well , but know of his

works

[leftofthedial]

4. my dog predicts the rain

I think she also knew Bush was a shitstain long before the coup.

Praise Dog.

[rman]

5. how would the existance of Mari prove the existance of god?

Of course there's no doubt that the bible exists. And there's evidence that someone like Jesus did exist. But that doesn't prove the existance of god.

[Kinkistyle]

6. When did Mary predict these things?

In the Bible? If so, chapter and verse please.

[ParisFrance]

7. The early 1900s or late 1800s in Fatimah I believe

[Kinkistyle]

12. From the About.com analysis of the Fatima Prophecies

Here: http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa070300a.htm

Lucia dos Santos, who wrote down the prophecies she supposedly heard from the vision of "Mary" apparently didn't put it down on paper until 1940. As far as I know, the Second World War was underway by that point.

The third prophecy, or the one that supposedly foretells the assassination of the Pope "to the date" was revealed in May of 2000. The passage they cite is:

"...the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions."

Uh, as far as I can tell, the Pope survived the attempt. There is no date given for the event. The other bishops and priests did not die one after the other. The shooter was a lone gunman (not a group of soldiers firing "arrows") and I don't remember there being a steep mountain in St. Peter's Square.

[truthspeaker]

16. Note there is no date given for the papal "assassination"

[lil-petunia]

29. sheeeeesh. Do you know HOW MANY popes left this

planet in a hastened state? More than JP1, that's for sure. The history of the RC church is bloody, decadent, evil and reads better than a Robert Parker novel. Women popes. Blackmailer popes. killer popes. land-grabbing scheming powerhungry popes. That is just to name a few.

A few decades ago, I read The Bad Popes - a great read. The RCs tried hard to prevent its publication. I am trying to dig up the author, but can't find my copy at the moment.

[Festivito]

8. They allow focus, but not proof.

A method of working the tangibility intangibility border.

[ParisFrance]

9. They do not prove the existence of God ,but

Through reason, why and how would a vision that calls herself Mary appear and be able to make accurate predictions? If Mary exists, then God likely does.

[Festivito]

11. The mind can project prediction in dreams and ..on faces.

However, given "a vision that calls herself Mary," the accuracy of predictions are subject to flawed human transfer.

However anew, if Mary exists, God's existence is not proven, nor is it more or less likely.

[Kinkistyle]

13. Begs the Question.

Mary's predictions weren't "accurate". They were interpreted "after the fact", or whats known as "file-drawering/cherry-picking" the same way the Nostradamus' predictions are commonly file-drawered and cherry-picked, and shaped and interpreted to fit to current events after they happened. Bits and pieces are taken while leaving huge chunks of predictions that don't come true.

[truthspeaker]

15. The predictions are not accurate.

Just superstitious mumbo-jumbo. No one can predict the future, not even George Orwell.

[HFishbine]

31. Ahem

"Through reason, why and how would a vision that calls herself Mary appear..."

Um, if you are truley willing to apply reason, then you won't mind examining the statement "calls herself Mary." When and how did a vision call herself Mary?

[Warren DeMontague]

10. Basic Quantum Physics Is Far Weirder

Than Any Face Appearing Mysteriously On A Donut.

Reconcile the cat being alive and dead at the same time, or one particle instantaneously "knowing" that its complementary partner halfway across the universe is being measured or observed at that very moment, and then -- as far as I'm concerned-- you've got something.

Beyond that, hey, frogs have been known to rain from the sky. It doesn't mean God's name is Kermit.

[al bupp]

26. Do I Detect a R.A.W. Fan Here?

Your references to quantum physics and rains of frogs have triggered my Wilsonian radar.

"The final war will be between Pavlov's dog and Schoedinger's Cat." R.A.W.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

39. I do enjoy R.A.W.

everything in this post is false.

:D

[Warren DeMontague]

48. What can I say-- the man did permanent damage to my mind...

Bless his pointed (well, round, actually) little head.

His recent DVD documentary, "Maybe Logic", is worth checking out-- if you can find it-- too. The guy is getting pretty infirm but he's still sharp as a tack.

Fnord.

[al bupp]

49. He permanently effected me too.

Going back twenty years to when I 1st stumbled across Illuminatus. A true American genius, IHMO.

I knew about his condition, basically aging made worse my the lingering effects of childhood polo.

I'll keep an eye out for the documentary looks good. Appears to be available here:

http://www.maybelogic.com/

I'll have to save up my pennies.

All Hail Discordia!

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Yeah, It's kind of low budg; but there's something

inspiring about watching the guy in action, particularly when he blows up on a mini-rant at the Santa Cruz Medical Marijuana rally, saying something to the effect of: "George Bush is a sadistic f*cking bastard, and he has a lot of nerve to try to tell me I can't have medicine for my legs... Okay, I apologize-- It's not George Bush's fault... he is the Buddha, just like everyone is the Buddha, he's just too f*cking dumb to figure it out"

He's definitely moved into "crotchety, wizened zen master" mode at this point.


Truly a national treasure. He will be missed.

[al bupp]

52. Maybe we need to start our own R.A.W. thread,

rather than hijacking this one, but at the risk of irritating the mods, let me just say you hit the nail on the head w/ your post. Just like the fellow who's pic you use as your avatar, he will be sorely missed by "sombunall" of us (to use a Wilsonian coinage that's a favorite of mine).

As for the Santa Cruz pot rally you mention, I love the quote, pure RAW, that one. The day after the rally I happened pick-up a copy of the NYT, on a total whim, which I very rarely do. Lo and behold there in the National Report section was a large photo of our dear "wizened zen master", wheel-chair bound getting his share of medicine. I still have the photo and accompanying article pinned to my office wall, above the headline reading, "Defiant California City Hands Out Marijuana".

Cheers

[baldguy]

14. You mean like this?

http://www.gethep.net/road/marywindow.html


and this?



http://www.totalobscurity.com/mind/mary



People will see what they want to see, even when that thing isn't there.

[Reverend_Smitty]

55. I've driven past that building...

its near where I used to live in Florida. Just outside of St. Petersburg

[BiggJawn]

17. And the Maid of Orleans "heard voices"...

Have you seen the picture of the failed thermopane window that "looks like Jesus"? (the fog between the panes)

Somebody claims to have "seen" Mary, and thus this is proof of her existence?

OK, I have seen Bilbo Baggins. He's real, and Frodo lives, too.

No? Why not?

[Nimrod]

18. No proof

Even if people had indeed seen an entity known as Mary, it really doesn't prove anything.

It's possible that Mary was the virgin mother of Jesus who was the son of God. It's also possible that Mary was the decidedly NON-virgin mother of a child she named Jesus, and suffered from a form of schizophrenia during her pregnancy that convinced her that she was carrying the child of God. It's also possible that she and her son were diefied against their will by people desperate to find new meaning in the universe. It's also possible that either Jesus, Mary, or both were psychics or magicians. It's also possible that either Jesus, Mary, or both were con artists. It's also possible that neither of them ever truly existed at all, and the Bible is merely a reprinting of local mythologies for amusement's sake.

All these and a gazillion others are ALL entirely possible. Unless someone either builds a time machine or God decides to show his face directly and explain a few things, it remains a matter of faith only. There IS no proof.

[dryan]

21. Marian Apparitions.....

these devotions are important to a lot of people but even the church has said that if you don't want to believe in them its is okay. Also, just because they don't make sense to non-Catholics doesn't mean they should be ridiculed.

[truthspeaker]

28. if they involve a fence post, they should be ridiculed

Even if they are important to people, they are still simple optical illusions.

No special treatment for the gullible!

[Nimrod]

51. Faith issues all have something in common

If you believe, no explanation or proof is necessary. If you don't believe no explanation or proof will suffice. That's why it's called faith. Just because a gazillion people believe in something doesn't make it fact, just as a gazillion people NOT believing in something doesn't prove it false. Faith is unprovable by definition.

This is not to ridicule anyone for believing or not believing, that's a choice you have to make on your own.

[Vickers]

19. I'd say you need to work more on your "faith" and less on your "proof"

Just a suggestion.

[TX-RAT]

23. The only answer is faith

You either have faith in religion.
You either have faith in science.
I personally have faith in the fact that i don't have a clue, when it comes to religion. My faith in science changes every time theres a new discovery.

[lil-petunia]

30. faith in science?

or in scientific discoveries?

Science facts are demostrable.
Religious facts are not.
Science theories can be proven or not.
Religious theories require setting aside of your logic circuits, and substitution pure unadulterated belief in lieu of your normal, curious, inquisitive, learning rational self.

that is not to say that we are often irrational and emotional. Heck GWB got into the White House. That PROVES our irrational side.

But I object (slightly) to the use of "faith" in terms of science.
Even with quantum mechanics, N-dimensional space, fast neutrinos, worm holes, black holes emitting material which retains "knowledge" or quantum chromodynamics. Or even 11 dimension string theory.

[TX-RAT]

34. scientific discoveries?

One simple discovery can change many theories.



Can science prove god doesn't exist?

[mondo joe]

35. Science isn't about faith

In science all conclusions are tenatative.

If you think science is about declaring definite answers, you've misunderstood science.

[lil-petunia]

38. I don't have faith in my ability to decide that fairly.

:) :) :)

But one thing I love is how humans have, all too often, come close to believing that "we have reached the ends of knowledge. We now understand everything." Like the 1800s, the early 1900s and now under George Bush.


Only to be proved wrong each time.

[TX-RAT]

47. I like that answer.

[LeftyLou]

20. Your faith is weak

If you truly believe in Christian dogma, you should need no hard proof. Faith is faith, not fact. Why do you have to try to make others believe in order to confirm your faith?

Jesus said something about the street corner preacher getting what he most desired. Attention.

[johnnie]

22. God or gods do exist to some degree

To even acknowledge the concept gives it some degree of existence. There are very few people who have never heard of the concept of a God or gods. Does something have to be clearly visible to the naked eye to be real?
This is not for the original poster, just something I felt like writing.

[Stuckinthebush]

24. Sailors used to see mermaids all of the time

People see what they believe is real.

It is interesting that the only people who discover the image of Mary on a kumquat or some other inanimate object are devout Catholics.

Now, one could say that this could be God's or Mary's way of telling the world that Catholicism is the one true religion. More likely, it is because these individuals have been raised to believe in the divinity of Mary and that she has the ability to appear to believers. Having this strong belief can lead someone to see Mary in just about anything.

Also, isn't it interesting that the images of Mary correspond to European artists' conception of Mary. No one actually knows what Mary looked like, and it is very probable that she didn't look like a young French women - however this is the image that is constantly seen. The images that match the artists' representations from the middle ages and beyond. Why is this? Because that is what true believers have come to believe that Mary must look like.

[asthmaticeog]

25. I dispute your heretical claims.

The sticky-bun that looks like Mother Theresa is far more compelling proof of God's existence than the Allegation at Fatima. Genuflect, heathens.

[Stuckinthebush]

32. OMG!

That bun looks like one of those scavenger characters in the first Star Wars!

You know, the little guys in robes in the desert that were taking pieces off of Luke's hover mobile - the sticky bun looks like a head of one of these guys with a hood!

What are the implications of this?

[asthmaticeog]

44. Star Wars?

Are you mocking my faith? Conflating the one true religion with a coarse popular entertainment? DIE, HERETIC!

[truthspeaker]

46. Jawas

Kids these days don't know the classics.

[Stuckinthebush]

54. Hehe

Yep...Jawas

Damn, I saw that thing about 100 times when I was 10 years old. You would think that I would remember that. I even had the figures and the little plastic car Luke drove.

Ahhhh...the 70's.

[mondo joe]

27. Of course its the Goddess, which disproves Christianity

Of course these are manifestations of The Goddess which are mistaken for Mary by people who don't know any better.

Right?

[notadmblnd]

33. I spoke to God once?

He told me many things such as how there really is no heaven or hell. He told me that our existence after death is the same as our existence before we were born. He told me that he is in each of us and that some people are more full of him than others. God told me that it was not about going to church or not swearing or being chaste, it's about not hurting others and doing good. He said how good or evil you are depends on how much of him you are filled with.

At the time, this conversation I had was very real. Does this event make me a prophet? Does this conversation make this true? Did I mention I was experimenting with mescaline at the time?

[PATRICK]

36. And the world also ended 20 years ago

The reason the Vatican kept the lid on some of these comforting doom revelations from dubious "apparitions"(I too did not know how to use the spellcheck until some months ago) is simply that self-fulfilling prophecies can be more dangerous than the real thing in a nuclear world.

Too many people expecting, craving, putting faith in annihilation or anticipatory judgment wrenched form the mystery of God by fanatics can push the situation considerably and distract from real faith issues in escapist or antagonistic fashion.

The need for apparitions(not their occurrence) is a sign of decline of faith as sure as apocalyptic romance is avoidance and a lack of nerve to practice the faith in the ordinary world.

If I am dangerously wrong I would hope some divine visitation in some form or other would smack me off the horse but I would not expect, nor should I need it if I had just a shot of grace. Too many years of Hollywood special effects and education into the Cabalist gnosticism of countless generations have taken the bloom off the shiny auras and glows of ethereal celestial ET's. Having your head in the clouds is for the birds.

If you are interested in direct contact with the faith I have a cross for you to carry.

The Book of Revelation was about the fall of Rome. t didn't until the Church no longer wanted it to fall, and wanted it to sustain a Christianized world. Pious certitude in misinterpreting spiritual fantasies(with a grain of truth)is too presumptive.

[Trajan]

37. Apparitions of the mind ....

Not of the real ....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Most Protestants would not accept the Marian apparitions as genuine

since in the Protestant view, neither Mary nor any other saint has supernatural powers. Saints are simply ordinary people who were honored for their exemplary lives.

[BurtWorm]

41. What is your stand on eidetic imagery or mass delusion?

Same difference. :shrug:

[Beetwasher]

42. My Friend Arnie Said A Talking Plant Told Him Where His Socks Were

He looked all over and couldn't find them, then his cactus started talking to him and lead him RIGHT TO THEM! Amazing, ain't it?

Cactii Rule! All hail the Cactii!!!

[Kazak]

43. I, in fact, do believe Jesus existed...

and that he was an incredible, yet ordinary, human being.

[amazona]

45. a good friend is a follower of Mary

He has experienced Her touch in his life but says that it is not proof of the special divinity of Jesus, rather we are all children of God. Mary may be a very old force, indeed, She may be a face of Goddess. I am not Catholic and don't know enough about this subject to comment further, can only pass on my friend's thoughts, which I hope I have not garbled too much.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

53. OK. Provide the primary evidence for the predictions

verifiably from a period pre-dating the events.
Then we'll see.

[politicat]

56. like in windows and tortillas? Apophenia. Seeing patterns that aren't

there.

The human brain is really good at detecting patterns - it's an artifact of evolution. Faces even more so than other things.

As far as the other stuff - I was raised catholic. The predictions were something that I argued with my catechism teachers (always very well educated Jesuits) over and over. Before the event, they were vague; after the event, they'd be polished up. Anybody can predict something or interpret something AFTER the fact. It's getting it right ahead of time.

The fact is, what the Church releases as prophesy and what Weekly World News claim they release are two different things.

Hard data. If Mary's appearing, and making predictions, she can do so in clear, simple "ink it into your Dayrunner" language. She's got to know that that's the only thing that's going to convince mankind, and her whole schtick is mercy and conversion. Why be vague when explicit clarity would win more souls??

Politicat