Why I'm thrilled Team USA lost in Men's Hoops

[aldian159]

I love basketball and I love the USA, especially in the Olympics, but I'm elated Team USA got beat and could "only" win the Bronze.

The NBA, where all but one of the players were culled from, (the one non-NBAer, UConn star Emeka Okafur, played less than I did.) has rapidly become a street league. We are to blame and ESPN is to blame. All the athletes in the NBA (the world's best) wanna make the highlight reel dunk in lieu of doing the fundamentals. Therefore, the fundamentals don't get stressed, and good fundamental teams beat us. I want the NBA to go back to the days of the jump shot and solid defense. I thought that when the Detroit Pistons, who play rugged and tough and do the "little things" beat down the Lakers for the Championship it would mean something. Team USA is chock-full of wingmen, the basketball term for players who can score at will, as long as they can move about. Team USA has no pure shooter, and there are a lot in the NBA. Ray Allen, Brent Barry, Kirk Hinrich, Allan Houston or several other shooters would have helped immeasurably.

I want the NBA to be more like the international game, which is so nice to watch. I want the world's best basketball players to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

Thanks for reading.

[pacalo]

1. All I can say is, if there were more players like the Argentinan

highlighted during tonight's NBC coverage, I would have been watching more of the basketball games. I didn't catch his name, but he was tall (of course) & had long hair. Very good-looking.

His mother & his fiancee had gotten killed in a car accident a year ago, & his dad died recently, the commentator said. Sad.

[Mojambo]

2. Man, great post.

Basketball, when it is played the way you suggest, is one of the most entertaining sports around.

The way the NBA plays is just boring. I used to be a very big hoops fan, but last year I didn't watch ONE NBA game from beginning to end.

I fear the NBA marketing machine will NEVER allow the return of the game we remember.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

3. *excellent* analysis

:thumbsup:

[delhurgo]

4. I pretty much agree, and I was... not exactly glad , but....

not sad either to see the U.S team lose. I think they're essentially a bunch of overpaid head-cases - or alot of them are. They make millions and millions of dollars a season to shoot a ball in a hoop. I'm glad to see them taken down a peg or two, even though I hate to see a U.S. team lose.

I predict the NBA will send their players to the Olympics one more year. They'll go all out to make sure they win, then thats the last time they'll be in there again. It makes them look too bad if they lose. People must be wondering if the NBA really has the greatest players in the world; thats bad for business. Anyhow, after the 2008 Olympics that'll be it; then we'll go back to college teams again. You watch.

[Piltdown13]

5. Totally agreed.

This is exactly the result I've been expecting for awhile now, as our "Dream Teams" moved closer and closer to being pure star-collections rather than actual teams. I agree also about the NBA...it's why I much prefer watching the college game, though even there some of the star mentality has appeared.

[ParisFrance]

7. Nobody knows how to fix U.S. basketball

The NBA promotes athleticism only as do Division 1 colleges with their refusal to recruit and draft white kids. The coheision of the game would be far greater. They obviously have to go back to fundamentals instead of the flashy uneccessery dribbles and moves. Coaches controll the game way too much. The players no longer create their own shot out of the offense. Teams need to run up and down the floor which allows easy baskets and is fun to watch.( I think this developes better passing and the ability to create your own shot too)Coaches fail to teach passing in America.

[chenGOD]

10. "refusal to recruit and draft white kids"

excuse me?

I agree with the fact that more fundamentals are what is sorely needed in the NBA but I fail to see how race enters into it at all.

[aldian159]

11. a stupid perception

The common perception is that black guys can't shoot and white guys are unathletic stiffs.

Ray Allen
Allan Houston
Reggie Miller
Kobe Bryant
Paul Pierce

Five black guys who can shoot the ball lights out

[ParisFrance]

12. They want athletic players

If you look at most international teams, the majority of them are white. White kids can play too, they are very skilled except teams want athletic players and lately the athletic players have been losing to these talented white teams.

[chenGOD]

13. Err you might want to check some pop. statistics there...

Like how many black people live in these countries where all these white people are putting together teams that are whipping the shit out of those damned athletic blacks.

Let's see, according to the CIA factbook (and yes I know how reliable their intelligence is..lol)
Argentina-97% white
Italy-Italian (which I guess means white, although according to Dennis Hopper's fantastic speech in True Romance...)
Lithuania-80% Lithuanian, 8.7% Russian and 7% Polish (I don't know the last black polish person I met)
America-77% white, 13% black

Look, the reasons that America "only" won the bronze are pretty straightforward and simple. They were a very inexperienced group of guys, which was part of their inability to gel together as a team. They lacked a pure shooter (of which there are many to choose from amongst those athletic blacks, like Glen Rice, Allan Houston, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller*, Kobe Bryant). They do indeed lack training in the fundamentals, like how to defend against a high screen, playing proper zone offense etc.

This bullshit about how they keep losing to white teams is just that, bullshit-their Olympic record is what like 113-4?

* I know Reggie Miller is like 80 now, but he still shoots the ball better than almost anybody in the game, regardless of his ugly release.

[ParisFrance]

17. That's true , but the point I was trying to make is that white players

are talented and in most cases more skilled. Black people are great athletes , but they since 1 and 1 and streetball became the popular thing to do they have just been using flashy and unnessery moves and no longer play the game and fundamental game.

[chenGOD]

19. Are you truly trying to argue that..

white players are more skilled than black players?

That's kind of silly argument to make don't you think? I mean what point does it serve besides showing you as someone who thinks that white players are better?

When you think great white players-
Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Jerry West
'pistol' Pete Mahavolich
Bob Cousy
Bill Russell
Dave Cowens
Dave DeBusschere
George Mikan
Bob Pettit

I dunno I'm sure there are more-but look at how many of those came from times when it was a "non-african-american friendly" league (to use the PC terminology).

Black players-
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Dr. J
Charles Barkley
Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
Earl the Pearl
Tiny Archibald
Isiah Thomas
Joe Dumars
Robert Parrish
Scottie Pippen
Wes Unseld
James Worthy
Clyde Drexler
Connie Hawkins
George Gervin

You summed up the argument in the last two words of your post: fundamental game. All those black guys I listed above had fundamental game skills. The kids today need fundamental teaching, and I believe that the NBA should legally not be able to accept any kids direct out of high school (cause I also think that kids should get an education, in case of that first season career-ending kne injury). Coaching, desire, hustle and athletic ability all conspire to make a great player.

PS: I think all of those players (both black and white) I listed above are in the hall of fame with the exception of Jordan,Pippen and Drexler.

[ParisFrance]

20. Those black players you showed had great fundamentals

People in America are only looking for athleticism and they rarely take kids who are average athletes with good skills. Well...Two points 1. Fundamental 2. Coaches need to stop controlling the game as much and run up and down the floor and let kids create their own shots of the offense

[chenGOD]

22. What the....

1: Why would you take an average athelete with good skills when you can take an above average athelete with good skills?
2:The reason coaches are trying to control the game so much is because the kids didn't get the coaching in high school and college.

I'm sorry if this offends you, but to me you just sound like a guy who wants to get more white players in the game.

[ParisFrance]

23. These black athletes are not skilled.

They can't pass, shoot, lack basketball knowledge, and moves. They are not skilled. Michael Jordan and Oscar Robertson were skilled, Paul Pierce and Kobe Bryant are no where near their skills. The failure to recruit white players is just a theory I've heard. Coaches controll the game in high school and College, not just in the NBA. Which prevents them from developing skill, makes the game boring, and puts the players at a disadvantage to create their own shots.

[chenGOD]

26. That's laughable...

I don't like Kobe, cause he plays for the Lakers (booo hissss), but there is no denying the skills that he has, especially in being able to create his own shot. Paul Pierce not skilled? You gotta be kidding me. Maybe he's no MJ (who is though?) but he's definitely got skills. He might not be a superstar, but he's shot over 42% career.

And man, coaches want the best players for their teams period, they could care less if they were blue,purple, yellow, black, orange or white (for the most part).

Why do some of the other talents lack skills right now? Cause they didn't go to college, which takes their game play to a whole different level from HS, but still makes the focus on the fundamentals like boxing out/playing against zones/defending in a zone/shooting proper J's. Coaches controlling the game in high school and college helps them learn fundamentals, and does not restrict their ability to create shots (it couldn't according to your theory that they only recruit athletic players).

The theory that there is a failure to recruit white players is just that. A theory.

[lazarus]

28. exactly

is it any wonder that the best, most fundamentally sound player in the league, Tim Duncan, attended four years of college?

[ParisFrance]

32. Tim Duncan also didn't learn basketball in America.

He grew up in the Virgin Islands.

[chenGOD]

34. But he went to college in America.

Wake Forest

[ParisFrance]

37. Tim Duncan's an intereseting story

Duncan was a swimmer and didn't begin basketball until the age of 14. He was compelled to listen to his coaches very carefully because he was years behind in training. This is what allowed him to become such a solid player. His 4 years of college helped too and the international focus of fundamentals.

[ParisFrance]

33. 42% for career...That is horrible compared to the star players of the 80s

They always shot around 50%. Controlling the game doesn't let them play up and down, create their own shots, and restricts them to make the safe passes and plays.

[chenGOD]

36. You got some stats to back that up?

And what do you want? You want kids to learn fundamentals (like passing and makking sound plays) or do you want kids to use their athletic ability to create their own shots?

And for the record Larry Bird was the first player to ever shoot above 50% for a season, and that was in 1986 I think. He shot 49% career, and he's considered one of the best shooters ever. Magic Johnson shot 52% career and he's also considered one of the best ever. If you read my post again, I said that Paul Pierce may not be a superstar, but he is definitely a star. Dominique Wilkins shot about 47% and Clyde Drexler shot about the same. MJ shot around 50% career and he is (IMO) the best to ever play the game.

So in conclusion, I'm gonna have to say that you're talking out of your ass if you think 42% is a horrible career FG average.

[ParisFrance]

38. Yes, I do this is just the 1985-86 celtics

Bird 49%
McHale 57
Parrish 55
Johnson 45
Ainge 50
Wedman 47
Walton 56
Sichting 57

1986 Lakers
Johnson 52
Worthy 54
Jabbar 56
Scott 49
Green 54
Cooper 44
Thompson 48
Rambis 52

1971 Lakers
GoodRich 49
West 48
McMillian 48
Chamberlin 65
Hairston 48
Robinson 49
Riley 45
Ellis 46

Players career fg%
Barkley 54
Stockton 51

[lazarus]

40. actually

in 1980, before Bird, the top twenty ALL shot over 50%. #1 was Cedric Maxwell, who shot 60.9%. Kareem was right behind him at 60.4%.

In 1981, Artis Gilmore shot 67% for the season.

As a matter of fact, from 1977 to 1998, every player in the top 20 shot over 50%. In 1998, the #20 player shot only 49.8%

So there was a good long run there, starting well before Bird, of players shooting over 50%.

As far as I can tell, Wilt Chamberlain was the first, shooting 50.9% in 1961. He was the only player over 50% that season, as well.

[chenGOD]

42. Sorry I stand corrected...

The stat I was badly remembering was that Bird was the first to shoot over .500 FG and over .900 FT for a season...

[lazarus]

43. ah

Yeah, that I can believe. Virutally all the high-percentage shooters before Bird came along were inside players, who traditionally, for some bizarre reason, are poor free throw shooters. (Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, etc.)

[lazarus]

39. Heh

Let's compare it to the star players of 1950, when only seven managed to shoot over 40%.

Or 1960, when not a single player shot over 50%.

Or 1970, which was almost identical to 2004.

In the '80s, FG% started to climb. In the '90s, it dropped again. Defenses are getting better and better, so it's a lot harder to hit a shot anymore, too.

I'm confused here, anyway. People are decrying "street ball", which is essentially playing up and down, creating their own shots, with minimal passing.

And you're advocating for more of that.

Thing is, it's an arms race. In those glory days of the '80s, nobody played defense. Teams regularly scored in the 110-120 range. Ever watch those old games on ESPNClassic or NBATV? They're not playing defense, they're all just fast breaking. Even those slow plodding Celtics teams were all about the fast break.

So right now, defense is preeminent. Soon, it'll shift back to offense. It's all cyclical.

[miss_kitty]

27. i don't really think of Bill Russell as a great white player

i think of him of as one of the greatest players to have ever played, and he seemed to be an african american, the 2 or 3 times i met and/or bumped into him....

on edit...did i misunderstand your post?

[chenGOD]

30. Damn I'm embarrassed...of course I meant Bill Walton.

Where's the embarrassed emoticon...

And yes Bill Russell would certainly rank up there as one of the greatest ever, looking back on that list I also managed to leave out Wilt Chamberlain...doh!

On edit: you didn't mis-understand my post, I Cheneyed up.

[miss_kitty]

35. that's ok, it's late

he's a great guy. while he lived here, he worked to raise funds to help abused kids...i used to work with his son, Bill jr. a friend of mine and i saw senior walking down the street with a woman friend with a one summer evening, 20 years ago now, and he was telling her something about BB and demonstrated to her, in his beautiful date clothes, the most perfect of spin around layups. right there in front of us. i said to my pal, "Oh my god Frank! It's Bill Russell Jr's DAD!" we all had a good laugh....

[aldian159]

9. There is nothing better

than watching some freshman dive for the ball. He's playing for nothing but his scholarship (unless he's at Kentucky, in which case...). Meanwhile, on the NBA channels, all you see is some bored millionaire miss a jump shot.

[lazarus]

21. Yeah

After all, Iverson left the Olympics when he broke his thumb.

Oh, wait, he kept playing.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. Really sad times. I love, love hoops. Duncan's good. Instead of

all the others if you just had a couple guys like Reggie Miller (pure shooter) we'd have been fine.

It's sad. Magic could do all the LeBron stuff, but he could also hit an open 15-20 foot jumper. MJ too. I always thought this was the basic currency of being good in basketball. No longer, I guess.

[Yupster]

16. Supposedly the last spot

was recommended to go to a shooter and Michael Redd and Brent Barry were considered, but coach Brown wanted the college guy Okafer (sp?). The only thing I can think of is he was afraid of getting everyone minutes and wanted a throw away spot on the bench.

One shooter would have stopped the collapsing zones everyone played against them.

[Wapsie B]

8. I'm not a BB expert

by any means. But when I watch the NBA it seems to me like shooting is a lost art form. So many want to have a killer dunk and make the highlight reels, but couldn't shoot a 3 if their life depended on it.
Whatever happened to Karemm Abdul Jabbar's sky hook? The NBA needs to go back to its roots. Not necessarily drafting more white guys but have coaches and players who stress the fundamentals like shooting, passing, ball handling and playing defense.

[Yupster]

15. Tough to do when the kids leave college

after their freshman year or don't even go to college. The kids want to impress the scouts with their athleticism and otential and sign their contracts.

You would think scouts would change the way they look at players though with the success of the foreign teams. Look less for athleticism and more for atured skills like shooting.

[Yupster]

14. The US played a remarkable bronze game though

With Lithuania shooting the lights out, the US won with determination and hard work, especially under thre boards. Allan Iverson is an incredibly determined athlete.

I wish they would move the three point land out another three feet. It's becoming too dominant as Lithuania made 21 of 35. I think that's too many threes.

[JCMach1]

24. 21-35... it's not the 3 it's the lack of defense

...

[Yupster]

25. Well the Italians made 18 threes

in the semi-finals against Lithuania.

I just think they moved the line in too far. The NBA 2-point line would be more of a challenge.

[lazarus]

29. I'd get rid of it

If we're going to give three points for an outside shot, how about 4 points for a shot from half court? And a dunk could only count one point, since it's so high-percentage.

Actually, giving one point for a dunk or a shot in the lane might make these guys work more on their shooting...:evilgrin:

[lazarus]

18. sigh

I won't go into all of this, but...

I'm sick and tired of people lauding the Pistons as if it's the first time a team won the championship through hard work and, especially, fundamentals and teamwork.

The year before the Pistons won, the Spurs won, with a remarkably similar team and playing style.

They also won in 1999.

And everyone complained about how boring they were, because they played defense and fundamental basketball and didn't run up and down the court firing away and dunking every 13 seconds.

Ratins for the Spurs/Nets series were the lowest since "Manimal" left the airwaves.

You want an improvement?

Here's some suggestions:

Start incorporating international rules in the US game AT ALL LEVELS. Phase them in over the next 10 years. Start in high school, then follow them up through college and into the NBA. We have to start training them young.

We can't impose a salary cap, but we can make a slight change to the CBA to encourage kids to stay in school.

You see, kids started coming out real early (or skipping altogether) in droves once we introduced a rookie salary cap. Now a player has to play his first three years under a very limited salary structure, before he can get his first "big contract". So why not come out as a freshman? By the time you would have been a senior, you're ready to sign for big money.

We can change it by altering the rookie salary cap. Increase it substantially for every year the player has spent in college (or the CBA, or Europe, etc.) So, a player enters out of high school, full rookie salary cap. After his freshman year, he gets 125% of the salary cap, and so on. After his junior year, he can get a full regular contract.

Seems fair to me.

Finally, we also have to realise that basketball as played AT ALL LEVELS of the American sport is fundamentally different from international ball. It's not just the funny lane and short three point line, there are a bunch of minor differences. We're asking our athletes to, in 2 weeks, learn to work together as a team, and learn essentially a complete variation of their sport. Unlearn habits they've acquired over 20 years of play.

That's a tall order.

Of course, it'd be interesting if SportsCenter pledged to quit showing dunks for one full year. :D

[JCMach1]

41. When Eddie Sutton retires in the next two years get him to

spearhead the Olympic effort for Beijing...

Whoever they get, let the coach be involved with selecting the team.

[Renew Deal]

31. You hate America!

;)