figure this one out for me: a fundy xian w/ liberal politics.

[Mara Steele]

???

so, have you seen one of these, ever?

are they safe??

??

[Must_B_Free]

1. Are you kidding? Of course

they're called "good christians" in my book. people who really got the message.

[qanda]

4. You're absolutely right

And a good number of black people are in or from Evangelical churches. I was raised in a "Fundie" church, my mother is a "Fundie" pastor and a good portion of the members in my family hold "Fundie" beliefs. None of us like Bush.

People should be careful with their labels, they start to be annoying after awhile.

[Mara Steele]

9. Sorry if the label annoys you, but as a gay person,

it is an important one in MY dictionary.

See, I can't be friends with someone who truly believes homosexuality is a sin. It's ridiculous. They may claim not to judge me, but I know they do. You mention black people: were I black, I could not be friends with someone who privately but firmly believed only whites were loved by God, yet claimed to accept me anyway.

You know?

So in this sense, fundamentalism is an important thing to discuss. And a perfectly good word.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

I'm sure you've heard this one...

"Love the sinner, hate the sin". They sure talk out of both sides of their mouth, don't they? You know, by their words and actions, that they have no love for us. Matter of fact, they have little love for anyone at all unless they fit into their narrow interpretation of hate and bigotry. They've created god in their own image and marginalized a huge percentage of humanity in the process.

[Mara Steele]

14. Exactly!

THANK YOU.

:hi:

[Must_B_Free]

21. Wow - so "gay" defines you

I thought "gay" was related to something other than religion. You seem to put them on the same level.

[Mara Steele]

27. No, but it IS as intrinsic & unalterable as say, skin color

It's an intrinsic part of who I am, and I can't accept someone as a friend who professes to believe a hateful and condescending theology.

[blondeatlast]

36. Note to self: Read first, then post. Self-delete nt

[Mara Steele]

46. I don't quite understand what you're saying

"Gay" does define me, to a fairly large degree. It makes me very DIFFERENT from a lot of people, and subject to a lot of hate, discrimination and misunderstanding.

Until these backwards attitudes have been defeated, gay folks must be outspoken and to a certain extent identify with our sexual orientations, so that the rest of the world, both Christian and non, can come to accept and appreciate us and our perfectly natural sexualities without judgement.

[mark414]

53. my cousin tried to rationalize with me

i told her that "defending marriage" slights gay people and marginalizes them as second class citizens.

she came back with something along the lines of "you seem to infer that protecting marriage means hating gay people, which couldn't be further from the truth."

she then followed it up by talking about how homosexuality was wrong and if gay marriage is allowed, it will redefine morality as "whatever feels right."

i compare it to those folks who rip on black people for whatever reasons and spew out the typical stereotypes and then try to pull the "but i have a black friend!" argument.

[Ladyhawk]

55. I agree.

"Bad" Christians are those who cling so tightly to dogma that they can't think for themselves. I call them fundies.

Fundies see non-fundies in one of two ways: 1) temptations or 2) potential converts. They can't see you as a person because of Original Sin. Original Sin can only be overcome by accepting Jesus and becoming a willing believer in dogma. So, if you aren't a practicing Christian, a fundy cannot really love and respect you.

I learned this the hard way last October. I thought I'd found a somewhat moderate fundy who wouldn't try to proselytize. Boy, was I ever wrong!

No more fundies for me. I am fundy-free!

[Cheswick2.0]

63. the problem is not that you don't want to be friends with someone

who thinks you are a sinner. The problem is that you don't really understand what you are talking about when you say "fundie" and no it really isn't a perfectly good word. It is one we use to lable people and that is never acceptable as I think you can understand.
One of the coolest people I every knew was a fundamentalist Lesbian Baptist Minister. She was great at a party.
Now figure that one out.

[Indiana_Dem]

2. HAHA! That would be me!!

Well, maybe not "fundie" in the sense that I'm conservative, wear Amish clothes, anti-abortion, etc.

[Mara Steele]

12. So, what does being a Christian mean to you?

To me, it would mean being a loving and compassionate person who cares about feeding the hungry, caring for the sick, and in general being as much like Christ as one can be.

[Indiana_Dem]

23. Right! That's what it means to me.

I look at Jesus' example. He fellowshiped and ministered to the lowly, sick, prostitutes, possessed, etc. and asked them to follow Him. He didn't associate with the Pharisees (wise, powerful elite) and he hated them making money in the temple. All He asked was for people to believe that He was the son of God.

Jesus had more of a communal following than any other type of political system. He asked for all to leave everything and follow Him. And that it was harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a poor one.

Jesus definitely would not be acting like many of our politicians and religious leaders of today as you can probably clearly see.

There is so much we don't know--we only know in part. I believe there is so much to know and he allows things to be revealed slowly. That's why all He asked us to do is to love God and love each other and He would let us know the rest when He comes back. I believe He grants us so much wisdom only to show us how without Him we will destroy ourselves.

Does that make any sense? It's just how I see it. May be wrong but hopefully not.

[Indiana_Dem]

24. By the way, I have 2 gay cousins and we love each other.

We have no conflicts and I love them just as God loves them!:hug:

My theory is that we are all at different levels of knowing what we know spirtually so how is it that we should judge based on our own knowledge which might not be relevent to that person?? God gave us the freedom to choose to serve Him or not so why should it be forced upon anyone? Why then should certain religious moral beliefs be forced upon anyone? You don't win others by force, you win through love. God will reveal or convict that person when the time is right or when He deems necessary--maybe never. It's not up to me. The only thing I can do is lead by example and if someone doesn't understand then it probably isn't time for them to understand yet! Heck I don't understand everything!

[Mara Steele]

28. I know for a fact that God would love me a great deal

because he MADE me this way...

[blondeatlast]

37. Exactly, with a minor correction: God DOES love you. nt

[Mara Steele]

41. Thanks, I tend to think so, as well.

You're very sweet to say so.

:pals:

[cally]

57. Holly...we have similar theories

It's not for us to judge but for God. I have enough problems finding my own way.

Jesus showed us that he embraced the outcasts and loved everyone. The religious right are the modern day pharisees IMHO.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Define what you mean by "fundy"

it's a pretty nebulous term. I consider myself a fundamentalist - in that I believe in the fundamentals - but I'm certainly not a Biblical inerrantist or literalist, or believe that America and God are the same thing.

But there are a variety of types of fundamentalism.

[Mara Steele]

7. okay, in the sense of biblical literalism

Even old testament is taken literally.

+ The only way to heaven is accepting jesus as one's personal savior.

but this person i speak of holds these views very privately, and is a very worldly person, in the classical sense. Open minded, accepts everyone unconditionally, claims not to judge.

i mean, man, he's tons better than the proselytizers,
but these views still confuse me.

[Indiana_Dem]

8. I believe that's what a true Christian is supposed to be like. n/t

[Mara Steele]

10. Including believing every FUCKING word of the old testament,

including the lies about homosexuality?

Please, do speak your mind.

[Indiana_Dem]

22. I apply those words in the bible to those times.

The Old Testament and laws were to die to the New Testament law. Jesus said the new commandments were to love your God and love your brother. Love. That's the magic word. Love transcends all sin to me and how I read and interpret the bible. It's not works but faith. By believing in that Jesus died on the cross and has risen from the dead and defeated death for all of us is what is most important. We are washed clean by the God's sons blood that was sacrificed by Himself for all.

I believe (I think) Romans Chapters 13 or 14 & 15 or somewhere along in there where it says what one man's sin is may not be a sin to another. I use this argument all the time with other Christians. I had an argument the other day on another board with some Christians who thought I was terrible for reading Harry Potter books because of the witchcraft written of in the book. I told them I felt no conviction that it was wrong and felt I wasn't breaking any rules by reading about something I know does not affect me adversely.

[Mara Steele]

31. Thanks for the thoughts,

that's interesting.

:hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. That's a more old-fashioned, non-evangelical style of

Christianity.

Do you happen to know the denomination of the church (if there is one?)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Mara Steele]

19. Thanks for the link -

have visited it once before. :hi:

I guess I consider myself of universal faith.

I believe in Christ and his message, most definitely.

And I believe, mostly, in love and compassion, for all of humanity.

[GreenPartyVoter]

43. I am hard pressed to pigeonhole myself too *l* Um

I guess I am a pluralistic Christian universalist. I still think of God in terms of the Trinity, but...well In other words, God is God no matter by what name or designation. But at the same time it doesn't bother me to break "Him" down into smaller pieces that perform various functions, like Jesus, the Holy Spirit etc.

To me it's like saying that I am a wife, mother, sister, and daughter, but beyond all that I am just Jen.

[Mara Steele]

45. That's beautiful, I love it, thanks

Nice talking w/you, Jen.

God bless.

:hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. You too. Remember what God said when He put us down here

"I love you. Play nice."

(Wonder why there aren't any Bibles that short? *lol*)

[Mara Steele]

48. Ha ha ha!! I think we should print some up, pass them out in

airports. They'd be a HIT, I tell you!!

:D

:hi:

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Better than WWJD, or "FROG"? *lol*

"DOVER — Patrick Lilton thought the nascent 'Fully Rely On God' FROG slogan would prove to be the next WWJD mega-fad, but a year after he spent $800 on FROG bracelets and other accoutrements at a youth convention, he's still waiting for it to catch on.
"I thought FROG would be big," he says, sitting in his bedroom surrounded by FROG-emblazoned binders, T-shirts, backpacks and bracelets. "It's a better slogan than WWJD."
But FROG has fizzled at the cash register and failed to define a generation as WWJD did. Concerned, Lilton tried to seed the fad by handing out FROG bracelets to students at his high school, but a rumor circulated that FROG meant "Fully Ready for Outgoing Girls." Soon every boy in the school was wearing one.
His final hope is that members of some cool Christian rock and roll band will don FROG attire and spark interest in the slogan.
"That would help me justify owning all this stuff," Lilton says, pointing to teetering stacks of FROG items. • "

http://larknews.com/july_2004/secondary.php?page=6

</satire>

[Mara Steele]

50. lol, that's hilarious

thanks for the laughs...

[Rabrrrrrr]

20. I'd be surprised if that person were a true literalist

But he could be.

Most intelligent people realize that the Bible is full of contradictions and varying opinions and is not internally consistent on small matters and details. It IS consistent on the 'God is love" and "God forgives" themes. But specifics, like whether women should speak in the presence of men, are up for grabs.

But, one never knows - he COULD be a true biblical literalist AND be liberal. Certainly if anyone takes Jesus' teachings literally - or even metaphorically, or, hell, just a simple *seriously* - they'd be a liberal.

Cuz Jesus was a liberal. :-)

And there are some within my denomination (United Church of Christ) who ARE - or claim to be - Biblical literalists and inerrantists. While my denomination is very liberal, and one of the first to ordain women and homosexuals, this small group believes that abortion is wrong and homosexuality is wrong, though they agree with my denomination's policies on the need for social justice (except, obviously, homosexuality), an end to racism, economic parity, feeding the hungry, etc.

So, who knows.

people come in all stripes, and it constantly pisses me off, because I'd rather be able to lump people into just a few monolithic groups, so I know who's on my side and who isn't, and I can't. Dammit. So I have the Catholics whom I have to commend and love and embrace on some things, and have to admonish and be angry at for other things. Annoying.

But that's the downside of being a liberal, isn't it? Not being able to make monolithic judgments and stereotypes.

Harumph.

[Mara Steele]

29. thanks for your sweet reply, Rabrrrrrr

I don't think this guy has REALLY read the Bible word for word, but merely been converted by some evangelicals, fairly recently, during a personal crisis.

So, I'm trying to get him to think. We'll see where it goes...

[faithnotgreed]

5. im Christian and green party. and based on what i believe i may be

labelled "fundy" by some here i think!

its so weird, because i hadnt associated with that word until you bring this up!
but then, i always felt i didnt "combine" right considering all the categories we have in our culture.

[Gryffindor_Bookworm]

6. You're kidding, right?

You've never met one?

Let me introduce you to, oh, EVERY African-American in the South that I've ever met (and that numbers in the thousands.)

[Mara Steele]

11. Well, I'm happy for their liberal politics

but we'd have a LOT of heated discussions about my sexual orientation, I'm sure

[Chovexani]

15. Uh

My mom is just that kind of person. And you know what? She could not give two shits about your sexual orientation or anyone else's. She'd say it's between you and God and therefore none of her business.

There's an awful lot of people who think the same way. Don't make such assumptions. :hi:

[democracyindanger]

13. Jimmy Carter nt

[blondeatlast]

38. EXCELLENT! I shall add nothing to this conversation. You said a mouthfull.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Depends on

the fundamentals they adhere to.

Are talking Falwell-style? Amish? What?

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Beware the Beast Man]

18. YES! My sister-in-law and her husband!

They came up to visit a few weeks ago. My wife and I made a concerted effort to put away any political books, etc, as so not to start a debate. They belong to a very fundamentalist church, he's a vet, and so on, so we didn't want to ruffle any feathers. During dinner, my sister-in-law mentioned how she and her husband went to go see Fahrenheit 911, and much to our surprise, they loved the film. The dinner conversation segued into how we must get Scrub out of office.
One a footnote to my story, looks like they're at odds with their church, which is very pro-Bush; the pastor going so far as to refer to the "Pagan Left." But their minds are made up, and Mrs. Beastman and I couldn't be happier for them!

[Indiana_Dem]

25. One question I constantly ask other Christians if the subject comes around

is what about hermaphrodites? Where do they fall into the scheme of things? Heck what if with all of the DNA or hormonal research they're doing, they find a gene that predisposes a person this way? What will they say then? I think they're going to be in for a big surprise when they meet the big almighty.

I always ask other Christians if they also think women should be wearing coverings over their heads and sitting at the back of the church and speaking only when spoken to as well? Because one of the disciples clearly outlined this as a guideline in those times although it's not quoted as something Jesus said Himself.:shrug:

[onebigbadwulf]

26. Al Sharpton? We've seen him before.

;)

[JohnKleeb]

30. yeah they exist, Pres Carter

I am not one though, I am Christian but I am more Catholic and I am different than a fundamalist.

[LanternWaste]

32. By strict defintions...

By strict and technical definitions, I'm a "fundie".
By those same strict definitions, I'm a liberal Democrat.

I think I'm a safe person...

I don't kick puppies or try to make people around me feel uncomfortable.

I'm tolerant (i.e., I tolerate) of those things around me that I don't agree with that have little or no direct affect on me or my family.

I don't see the two being incompatible. :)

[Mara Steele]

33. Well, I prefer tolerance over intolerance, always

And commend you for your tolerance, & liberal politics.

However, it is the deeper beliefs which make 2 friends compatible, and I don't know how well we'd get along, depending on what your feelings are regarding, particularly, homosexuality.

[LanternWaste]

40. Hmmm... my opnion on the compatibility of friendships....

My opinion:

My best friend is a Republican and an Aethiest. On the surface, these are two of the most potentially divisive subjects that can either prevent (or even worse) ruin a friendship.

And yet is our opinions and perceptions of these very matters that have induced us to engage in some of the deepest and most persuasive self-examinations and genuflections in each other's presence.

To be honest, I'd consider myself *intolerant* if I predicated or qualified my fiendships with opinions held by others that did not/could not directly affect me in a negative way, e.g. ...

I hold God as the highest value in my life, but I think most people would think me intolerant, obdurate, small-minded and even somewhat bigoted if I refused someone's friendship because that person did not hold the same faith I do.

If that person is simply mean or bitter, by all means I would avoid him/her. The bitterness of another person can and does affect me (as I believe that we unconsiously "share" our spirits/karma/emotional kernels with those around us). But a disagreement, even re: the cultural fundamentals are (to me) a by-product (and part and parcel) of our individuality and not grounds for the disqualification of a relationship.

If I believe that true love is unconditional, I'm obligated and indebted to at least attempt the same. :)

(Crap... I'm sounding pendantic, but hopefully I'm being clear :P )

[Mara Steele]

42. You're great, no prob, thanks -

Here's my deal. See, when I find out a good friend is a fundamentalist Christian, I bring up homosexuality. And then I issue an ultimatum, which is followed by a lengthy, and often emotional argument/discussion, regarding theology and my being gay.

My ultimatum is this: if you MUST believe, that for some reason God loves me LESS than he loves you, or that I am LESS of a Christian than you are, or that I am a SINNER for being gay, then I cannot be your friend.

I feel that someone who holds that belief either 1) hasn't examined it, or, 2) is deeply hateful and hypocritical.

I try to preserve friendship w/argument, and so far have been successful. These people tend not to know many gays, and I try to give them a good education in what it means to be homosexual. I try to make people think. But if they can't concede to my logic, then I follow through with my ultimatum. They lose my friendship. Has nothing to do with religion. Has to do w/hate, and condescending beliefs. Very simple. Friendship has to do with total equality and friendship, and if I am not percieved as an equal in all matters, than it's over.

Thank you.

[Rabrrrrrr]

58. You hit on something that LanternWaste missed

Though I loved LanternWaste's post (and love that name!), and agree, there is the one instance, which you pointed out, Mara Steele, that goes beyond the "no litmus tests for friends" paradigm that lanternWaste so rightfully proposed.

And that is, that when another person sees you as less than human, or less in the eyes of God, or in some way not as valid/worthy/important as others, then there can be no real friendship. Not even a real relationship, whether it be coworker or family.

But we should not demonize that person into being less than others, not as important, or less loved by God.

But we CAN ignore them...

[Mara Steele]

60. Exactly - & thanks so much for your support,

Rabrrrrrr !

(how the heck do I abbreviate a name like THAT??:D)

[Rabrrrrrr]

61. You can abbreviate it Rab!

Rabr looks funny. Rabrr looks even dumber, but Rabrrr I don't mind.

Definitely not Rabrrrrr or Rabrrrr. If you use those, I'll blasticate you.

:hi:

And - you're welcome!

[name not needed]

34. My mom

[LoZoccolo]

35. It's funny that people here say that Christians "should" be liberal...

...as in feeding the poor, etcetera, but then they turn around and have trouble believing that any exist. While there is a powerful and vocal right-wing apparatus connected to religion in this country, I by no means think that it has swallowed up the whole of evangelical or even fundamentalist Christianity, or that it should be allowed to act or speak as if it has without question (really, I'd say that that's a big part of the problem - we're part of what lets it have that image, which further cements it as the "legitimate" political voice of the religion). There was a study some months back that found that 39% of evangelical Christians were Democrats (I think it was a Pew Research study).

I really think that these divisions aren't as clear-cut as the media, even the liberal publications (fuck, especially the liberal publications) make them out to be, and I think when we act like they do, it actually reinforces the people on the right that say you should have right-wing views if you are a Christian - we actually do part of the work in creating the religious right.

I have a Christian friend at work that's really into trying to question evolution - he studies a lot about it (interesting because he's also very into animal rights as I think he sees it as having respect for creation). He's very liberal (actually described himself as a socialist once), anti-Bush*, is known to mock a lot of religious right stuff (like how the Secretary of the Interior under Reagan said it's OK to trash the environment because he thought Jesus was coming soon), he's a nice guy (of course I'm biased because he's one of the people that decided to hire me, but I'm sure a lot of people would say that about him too). He asks me for my opinion about politics and what-not too. Now when people here are going on about the "brainwashed fundy xian Nazis" sometimes I think, you know, they're talking about my friend that way. And who knows how many people like him have seen all that, felt they wouldn't be respected to really contribute, and passed by, when they're really some of the most important people that could be visiting here because they could pass on all this great information we pass around, and give it to these people they go to church with that they have truck with and we don't.

[Rabrrrrrr]

59. Agreed all the way around!

Well said.

[CanuckAmok]

39. My new quasi-'girlfriend' is one...

I was a little troubled when rhe revealed that she goes to a suburban Baptist church every Sunday without fail, but she's a feminist, pro-choice, social progressive, gay-supporting (she's bi), Bush-hater.

She just believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ. If my Atheism isn't an issue for her, and it doesn't appear to be, then her spirituality isn't a problem for me.

[Mara Steele]

44. I also believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ

maybe in a more unconventional way than other people do, but I believe in them deeply. So in that sense, I am a Christian.

For me, I guess, "fundy" means taking the Old Testament & its words on homosexuality literally. That's it.

[Cheswick2.0]

64. So what exactly does the OT say about homosexuality?

And are you so sure that a "fundie" would interpret them in a way that called you a sinner?

[Mara Steele]

65. That it's an abomination -

It's in Leviticus, somewhere. Buncha bullshit, of course; it also says it is a sin to eat pork, shellfish; and for a woman to shave her legs! :eyes:

[SOteric]

51. Tons. Absolute buttloads of them.

Have you never heard of god-fearin', gospel-singin', bible-totin', "hallelujah-shoutin', Americans of African descent?

[liontamer]

52. perfectly safe

If more fundies focused on christ's teachings, there would be more liberal fundies

[Nikia]

54. I was a bit of a Fundy as a teen

I chose to belong to a "Fundy" church, in most senses of the word, which my parents did not belong to. I was always liberal politically. As far as homosexuality, I din't see that "sin" as a big deal as it was mentioned in the same book of the Bible that proclaimed that eating pork and shellfish were sins. In the New Testement, one of the Pauline letters, that basically says that you are held accountable to your own conscience regarding sin. If you believe that you can eat anything, then eating pork is not a sin. If you believe it is, it is a sin for you if you eat pork but not for the person who doesn't believe that it is a sin. I figured this applied to homosexuality too.
A few members of my church were liberal politically. The slightly less charismatic Fundy church down the street had even more liberals. The county Democratic women even held meetings there.

[Mara Steele]

56. Hi Nikia. that's really interesting

Thank you for your insights...

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. Book recommendations for all of you

1) Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by Bishop John Shelby Spong

2) Ten Things I Learned Wrong from a Conservative Church by John Killinger

[Mara Steele]

66. Thanks, Lydia!

Much appreciated, I will be sure to check those out!

:hi:

[Doomsayer13]

67. yeah, they exist

religious people who actually live up to compassionate ideals.