Eighth Grader Refuses To Stand For Pledge "Urged By Principal To Do So"

[matcom]

<snip>

West Bend Eighth-grader Says She Was Questioned By The Principal And Urged To Participate.

A West Bend student who refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance said she was questioned by school officials and humiliated in front of classmates for not participating.
The school's principal said she in no way intended to pressure the girl into standing or cause her embarrassment.

Rachel Morris, 13, an eighth-grader at Silverbrook Middle School, said she was singled out by her teacher, called to the principal's office and urged to stand during the pledge even if she chose not to recite it.

She has refused to stand all five days of this school year, she said.

Principal Cindy Guell said she called Rachel to her office on the second day partly to discuss the pledge but also to make sure everything was going OK for her. This is Rachel's first year in the district.

"She said it was against her religion to say the pledge. I said, That's fine.' I told her that basically, we stand anyway as a way to honor our nation."

Guell said Rachel was never told she had to stand. However, Guell acknowledged that, at her instruction, a statement was read over the intercom Wednesday and Thursday before the pledge that said, "The reason we stand is to honor our country."

The statement was intended to clarify the issue for students, not to needle Rachel, Guell said.

Said Rachel: "It was embarrassing because people kept looking at me like I didn't honor my country."


http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=wsj:2004:09:10:385822:FRONT

[Southpaw Bookworm]

1. Didn't mean to pressure her

My big blonde ass!!

:nuke:

[Joylaughter]

2. Soon it will be a law.

You vill stand und pledge allegience to ze flag or their vill be severe consequences.

[BlueJazz]

4. YAAA or Ve Vill throw Yu in Da Coooolar!!

Heil! Flag-Ler !!

[Joylaughter]

6. My apologies to the German people

For mocking their accent every time I illustrate a point about Fascism. But it does work well. So, sorry, to all good people of the world.

[BlueJazz]

9. I'm part German...I do it also..no big deal. :)

[strategery blunder]

24. It is a law in Illinois

I had to go to high school in the Second Soviet Union *sigh*

[truhavoc]

3. More proof that we are arguing the wrong issue with respect to the PoA

The issue should be the mindless brainwashing and indoctrination of our youth. I personally am again the "under god" section, but in actuality the entire thing should be objectionable. I guess it will undoubtedly take until calmer times have reached our coasts before anything of the like will be enacted.

[lakemonster11]

32. I'm such a Harry Potter nerd.

I see PoA and I think Prisoner of Azkaban.

[mark414]

5. just called them (i live close to west bend)

left a message for the principal, if she calls me back i'll relay my account up here

[northzax]

7. well, not standing is doing exactly that

showing disrespect. Her religion bans her from saying the pledge, that's fine, no one should have to say it that defeats the purpose. But standing is not saying the pledge, and refusing to stand is not showing respect for your classmates or the nation. I am not religious, but when I am in a church, say for a wedding or a funeral, and everyone rises to pray, I show respect for them and their beliefs by standing and bowing my head. I'm not praying, just showing respect for those who are. That is the lesson this principal was trying to teach this girl, that you can show respect for other people's beliefs, especially if you want them to show respect for yours.


she has every right to remain seated during the pledge, but she shoud expect it to be considered a sign of disrespect. You have every right to remain seated when they play the national anthem at a ball game, but I stand and remove my hat. I don't sign, but it's a sign of respect for those who are.

[Caution]

8. The whole point is that she shouldnt be singled out for her actions here

regardless of whether or not she respects the pledge of allegiance. Personally i find it apalling that some nationalistic whackos think that standing up and reciting something will encourage people to believe in and fight for their "freedom"

What type of freedom is it where some little child is alienated because they refused to participate in something (for whatever reason).

[northzax]

10. well, given that the responsibility of schools

is to teach people, I would say that the principal was well within his rights to let her know the implications of her actions. He specifically said she didn't have to say the pledge, but that not standing would be interpreted by people as a sign of disrespect. Now she can make a fully informed decision about what she wants to do. What's the problem?

[Caution]

12. did you actually go to school? The problem is that this is a matter

of choice.

Hey you don't have to vote for Bush, but if you don't it will be interpreted by people as a sign that you HATE AMERICA!!! YOU COMMIE LIBERAL BASTARD SONUVABITCH!!!!!

In a free society people should not be required to take loyalty oaths (which is what the pledge is). A school adopting this type of policy guarantees that a student will be ostracized and ridiculed by his/her peers. I'm sure you remember those poor souls who were ridiculed on a daily basis. Would you subject this young girl to this behavior because of a choice not to recite a pledge or stand for it? I certainly wouldn't. The pledge is something which i frankly do not believe belongs anywhere outside of the military and even then I think it should only be required at the initial signup. Instead they make you recite an oath of loyalty on a daily basis. This is *not* about unity it is about uniformity, about crushing dissent.

[oneighty]

20. Eight years active duty

in the Navy never once called upon to "Say the pledge". Also never called upon to attend church or say the lords prayer or so help me god.

So help me.

180

[politicat]

15. The principal was a WOMAN if you bothered to read the article.

Pcat

[smirkymonkey]

28. The key word is "Teach", not "indoctrinate."

The schools have no right to force children to participate, or even go along with, something they don't believe in and that has nothing to do with educating.

I have always felt that there was something very Nazi-esque about the pledge, and to this day I refuse to say it or even stand.

[DrWeird]

11. There's a difference between not showing respect...

and showing disrespect.

And in this case, given that she was being coerced into saying something she did not wish to say, by not standing she shows more respect for her country then every other single person in that school.

[northzax]

13. perhaps that's true

but it's not how it will be percieved by others. This is a new student, I think it is fully appropriate for the principal to gently, and privately inform her of the repercussions that her actions,

[politicat]

14. Sure, when you're in a church. She's in a public school.

There's a HUGE difference.

Pcat

[northzax]

16. true, but it's the same decision

I respect her decision not to stand, if she so wishes, but everyone should know, and be educated on, the repercussions of their behaviour. And the principal said she was within her rights not to stand, if she so wishes. I still don't see a problem with the actions of the school here.

[truthspeaker]

34. But public school is mandatory. Church is a choice.

[July]

38. What repercussions?

That she will be singled out and mocked for exercising her right not to say the pledge?

Isn't the principal suggesting that conformity is the best way to deal with a problem of conscience?

[ChoralScholar]

22. Oops.. moved my reply to the right place

...

[truthspeaker]

33. Bullshit. Nationalism should not be enforced.

I'm an American, and I don't feel disrespected by this girl choosing to remain seated.

[July]

37. Disagree.

Not standing is choosing whether to participate and is neutral as far as respect goes. Those forcing someone to stand are the ones showing disrespect to that person's answering to his or her conscience.

The second Supreme Court case about the pledge (not the one mentioned here by several posters) addressed the issue of standing, and the decision stated that one may not be forced to change one's position (by such actions as standing, bowing one's head, placing one's hand over one's heart, for example) for the pledge. Principals all over the country have been getting this one wrong for decades. They may ask that those not participating do nothing to disrupt the pledge (sitting quietly, for example), but the Supreme Court has already weighed in on standing, clearly supporting those who do not wish to.

The issue appears to be that standing is tacit participation in the pledge.

When you say that the girl should stand to show respect for others' beliefs, "especially if you want them to show respect for yours," you imply that she is showing disrespect. I don't think that sitting quietly and doing nothing to disrupt the pledge shows disrespect. Forcing someone to participate, if only partially, in something their conscience objects to is showing disrespect.

[mark414]

17. spoke with member of the administration

made my concerns very clear (as i was subject to this sort of thing when i was in high school, though not because of religious beliefs).

she was very civil and understanding and simply stated that the administration did what they thought to be the most appropriate response in light of the situation.

overall it was a very nice conversation, and i only wish debates on issues like this could follow suit and be intelligent and thought provoking rather than hateful and finger pointing.

she said she'd pass my comments on to the superintendent and that she appreciated my concern and thanked me for calling.

[Jokinomx]

18. As the article was written.. I think everything was handled

properly.

On a side note... I was in kindergarten and I heard my Mother and Father being talked to by the Jehovah's Witnesses. The JWs explained to my parents how the JWs don't pledge allegiance to anybody but God. That they encourage their children to stand out of respect...but they don't recite it.

So, the next day....I went to school and told my kindergarten teacher that I was no longer going to say the Pledge of Allegiance. So she asked me why... and I told her that I only pledge allegiance to God. She said OK.. and I have never recited it since. LOL

My parents were quite shocked when the teacher informed them during conferences of what I said. :-) One thing different than this girl... the teacher didn't take it any further than my room. She didn't even tell my parents until conferences...the year...1960

[Endangered Specie]

19. You vill stand und say die pledge or die SA vill kome affter you!

[cheezus]

21. the same people who claim to be ultra religious

are the same ones who want to force you to recite a prayer to an entity who is not thy lord god.

I will never understand such things.

[ChoralScholar]

23. Court Case Here:

Must students salute the American Flag and recite Pledge of Allegiance? Nope.

W. Virginia Brd. Of Ed. V. Barnette (319 U. S. 624 (1943))

Justice Robert H. Jackson said this, And I quote:

"Struggles to coerce uniformity of sentiment in support of some end thought essential to their time and country have been waged by many good as well as by evil men. Nationalism is a relatively recent phenomenon but at other times and places the ends have been racial or territorial security, support of a dynasty or regime, and particular plans for saving souls. As first and moderate methods to attain unity have failed, those bent on its accomplishment must resort to an ever-increasing severity. <319 U.S. 624, 641> As governmental pressure toward unity becomes greater, so strife becomes more bitter as to whose unity it shall be. Probably no deeper division of our people could proceed from any provocation than from finding it necessary to choose what doctrine and whose program public educational officials shall compel youth to unite in embracing. Ultimate futility of such attempts to compel coherence is the lesson of every such effort from the Roman drive to stamp out Christianity as a disturber of its pagan unity, the Inquisition, as a means to religious and dynastic unity, the Siberian exiles as a means to Russian unity, down to the fast failing efforts of our present totalitarian enemies. Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard. "

Good stuff from the good Justice. This opinion had to be off-the-charts liberal for 1943...

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

25. Thank you, I was looking for that

Students do NOT have to recite it. And to single them out is just wrong.

Here in TX, in June of 2003, the state passed a law that ALL students must say the pledge, then the Texas state pledge, then remain silent for one minute so people can pray or whatever. A parent can write a note excusing the child from saying it, but a teacher MUST say it, they cannot excuse themselves, apparently.

Our daughter decided last year that rattling off something as serious as a pledge of loyalty by rote every day wasn't so cool, so she asked if she could not say it. We talked about it for two months and talked about everything the pledge means, etc. Finally I wrote the note, having talked with her about possible fallout from her fundie teacher (public school). There was a bit of fallout at first, but it resolved itself.

This year (fourth grade) same thing. She is not saying it. She stands, but doesn't place her hand over her heart and doesn't say anything.

They sing the Star-Spangled Banner and a creepy school song with lyrics such as "ever faithful to the homeland" and "spreading freedom everywhere!" every Friday. She opted out of that on her own, LOL. She loves the Star-Spangled Banner, and doesn't mind singing that, but found the school song (written this year by the music teacher) really creepy (as did I) and so she doesn't sing that.

Ah nationalism!

[ChoralScholar]

26. well, you know...

the EYES of TEXAS are UPON YOOOOOOOU.... :)

No Problem MB, I educational law stuff on the ready. :)

BTW, if you ever need a place to start on court cases, check out this link from my School Law class:

http://education.atu.edu/people/swomack/cases.htm

from Dr. Sid Womack's Arkansas Tech University site.

[Jokinomx]

36. Moonbeam.. you and I seem to certainly see eye to eye on several

issues. It appears to me that you are raising your Daughter in a very similar fashion as my Wife and I. We have allowed them to make most if not all their choices while growing up. We would discuss issues just as you mentioned you did with Little Moonbeam. So few parents have learned this very important strategy. By allowing her to see all the sides of an issue and then allowing her to make that choice based on the information that both of you have discussed is insuring yourself of raising a very self confident, productive member of society.

I find any type if indoctrination of loyalty or servitude to any person, organization, religion or government, of a child is not allowing the child to be able to grow up and see openly and rationally the truth regarding those such entities.

At the same time, my wife and I have instilled a good sense of respect of all people, cultures, religions and governments in our Daughters. So I really don't think(saying the Pledge)is a necessary requirement to raising good American citizens. Both my children are very active in school and are leaders among their peers.

Anyway... cheers to your Daughter... she has made the correct choice as far as I am concerned...:-)


BTW... I do reserve the right to overrule my growing children's choices... One that I wouldn't allow was "Body Piercings". We had our discussion about it.. and my wife and I concluded that we wouldn't allow her to have any other piercings other than for ear rings... She didn't and still doesn't like our stance... but, she accepts it and knows when she turns 18 and is living out from under my roof... she can do anything she wishes.

[LWolf]

27. That's a pretty standard response.

My principal has made the same statement to us at staff meetings; those who don't say the pledge still have to stand to "show respect." So I ask my students to stand. I tell them that they are showing respect for the directions given to them by an authority figure; it doesn't have to have anything to do with the flag.

I don't say it very often myself; I stand and place my hand over my heart and wait for everyone else to be done. I don't pledge alliegance to anything but my conscience. I don't make an issue out of anyone saying it or not. I do make sure they are standing straight and still; should I get a "visit" during the pledge, we'd better look like we're doing it.

This is an incredibly emotional issue for those on both sides. When our society/culture evolves a bit more, it won't have to be an issue at all. Meanwhile, we comply with our orders in public school classrooms.

[Nightowl_2004]

29. This is a huge issue at my school...

Last year right as the Invasion of Iraq kicked off, a whole bunch of kids from the "Students for Social Justice" refused to stand for the pledge of Allegiance. I respect their right to do so but find it tremendously disrespectful, Its a simple courtesy to show respect for those that have fought and died for freedom. If they want to sit, I think that's not showing respect but, hey, it's your right to do so.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

30. How is pleging allegiance or not pledging allegiance

going to affect our soldiers?

Baloney.

[Nightowl_2004]

31. It's not going to directly affect our soldiers, but

I just simply think it's a way of honoring those that have come before us and served to give us freedom. Those that came before me in the Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War all the way up to those in the uniform today have all fought to make sure that I can pledge allegiance to a flag that grants me life and liberty (or exercise my right to NOT say it.) I just think it's just a simple courtesy to show your respect for their sacrifices.

[truthspeaker]

35. That's what Veterans Day and Memorial Day are for, not the pledge

You're reading something into this kids actions. Pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth has absolutely nothing to do with military veterans.

[July]

39. They didn't fight so you could pledge, and the flag doesn't grant anything

Soldiers fought to protect your rights and freedoms, not to make sure you can pledge the flag. The Constitution, not that piece of cloth, grants you freedoms. If you respect the Constitution, you also must respect the freedom of those with views that dissent from the majority's views to follow their consciences.