Does this statement sound misogynistic to you?

[prolesunited]

Poll question: Does this statement sound misogynistic to you?

Said in response to someone talking about being criticized by girlfriend:

"just bend her over a chair and give it to her good that'll even the score"

[hlthe2b]

1. Jesus... do you or anyone else HAVE TO ASK?

[Kanary]

7. heh..... we wrote the same thing at the same time...

great minds?

:)

Kanary

[hlthe2b]

9. I'd like to think that was everyone's first thought......

Guess, we'll see..

[Misunderestimator]

40. Yes, apparently, because it was actually posted here

[Career Prole]

2. Absolutely yes. n/t

[Mandate My Ass]

3. Yes, but it also sounds like

the emotional and intellectual level of discussion you might hear in any high school locker room.

[Kanary]

5. or...... DU

[Kanary]

4. You even need to ask? That's hate talk.

What a sad pass we've come to when an ugly statement like this is even in question.

Kanary

[kerry-is-my-prez]

6. a big duhhhhh.....

n/t

[pnb]

8. Depends on the context

Like so much other speech.

I've said similar comments to my wife in good fun. She certainly never got offended by it because she knows I actually do respect her.

Very few comments alone can be that offensive without knowing how they are being used and the person making the comments.

[prolesunited]

13. Context was a response

to someone's question jokingly asking what to do about girlfriend's concern about his political activism.

So, now what would be your answer?

[pnb]

17. Definitely lean alot more towards sexist in that case

though still basically harmless. Just stupid.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

171. Joking about using sex as a means of force to teach someone a lesson?

Harmless? I disagree. The more one takes the CHARGE off of reprehensible behavior, the more it becomes fathomable...notice how fathomable it is in some situations for kids to "pop a couple caps in your ass"

[LincolnMcGrath]

245. "Joking about using castration as a means of force

to teach someone a lesson?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1672724#1672738

[Misunderestimator]

250. Weird, man... I don't even understand where you're going with that...

[LincolnMcGrath]

252. Imagine that

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

259. Funny how offended you get when the shoe is on the other foot

No..I wasn't joking. I used a VIOLENT act which is JUST AS OFFENSIVE to men to demonstrate how offensive it is to women when men "kid around" about fucking (make that RAPING) some sense into them and you...taking the bait went for it. Maybe now that you see just HOW offensive it can be, you will be a bit more considerate of those that feel similarly about having SENSE raped into them..but based on your reaction, I doubt it...you are too busy feigning righteous outrage to notice that what I said and what the original poster said about women i.e. bend her over a chair is the same damn thing...violence done to someone's sex organs to teach them a lesson.

It's real simply, Lincoln. I am a woman. Either treat me the way you want to be treated or I WILL treat you the way you treat me.

[VelmaD]

265. Ok, I'm stealing that last line...

for my sig line. I'll properly attribute it and everything. Just gotta remember how to add a line. :)

[LincolnMcGrath]

272. WHO said I wasn't offended by this thread topic? YOU?

I never posted here because the whole thread is uncivil. Just like your reply to MY thread was UNCIVIL and threatening. <No..I wasn't joking.>

You used the threat of a violent act against me, simply for not being lambasting the statement.

I have seen many EVERY DUer post something that could be construed as offense to someone out there.

[Pithlet]

279. Lighten up!

I find it amusing that someone who would post a lighten up thread would get so bent out of shape.

[LincolnMcGrath]

285. Who is bent out of shape?

I,m wearing the same smile as any other day.

Just pointing out the obvious.
300 posts about a regretable comment. With a month and a half to go before a very important election.


I posted the lighten up thread so this "call out" thread might cease, and make some folks laugh. According to the IMs I have gotten many EvilUers agreed.


Glad you are amused though.

[Pithlet]

288. Oh. Well, okay then.

You got PMs from people who agreed with you. Never mind. Carry on.

[LincolnMcGrath]

297. What exactly do you think they were agreeing to?

That joking about bending a woman over and yada yada.... is funny?


Or that this whole thread went out of the cliff hundreds of post's ago?


If you pick the latter............you are correct.

[Pithlet]

304. I don't know

You're the one who got the PMs :shrug:

[LincolnMcGrath]

307. But you felt the need to comment about me right?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

290. Maybe they should strap on some ovaries and demonstrate courage

of their convictions by agreeing publicly with you. I'm not phased by secret good ole boys high fives.

[Misunderestimator]

306. Was just about to say the same thing. I love it when people claim

how many supportive PMs they get when those people aren't even confident in their own convictions to add their comments to the public thread.

[LincolnMcGrath]

310. I am fully confident in my convictions, are you?

I find the whole thread to be in bad taste, just like the comment it is about. A child knows the comment is in poor taste in almost any regard, and no poll need be posted to start a flame fest here.

Reply to me, not someone else if you are so confident in your convictions.

[Misunderestimator]

312. LOL... Why yes, I am.... do I sound like I'm NOT?

And apparently some children here do not know that the comment was in poor taste.

[LincolnMcGrath]

316. And some young'ns here think it was a threat against women

instead of just a comment.

[Misunderestimator]

317. Somehow you think that nearly EVERY woman on this thread is young?

Interesting... Well, I'm 42. And I've lived long enough to know an insult when I see it, and I've lived with enough sexism to know sexism when I see it. Yes, it was a comment, but it was not "just" a comment.

[LincolnMcGrath]

318. "Oh" {just a comment}

You refered to those who disagreed with you as children. Hence the term young'ns on my part.

[LincolnMcGrath]

319. There you go assuming it was all men! sheesh!

"Maybe they should strap on some ovaries and demonstrate courage"


As a single CUSTODIAL father of three, I find that comment laughable.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

287. Nope you made a joke out of the topic by telling people to

lighten up. Take a bit of responsibility for your words and actions. BTW...I made no personal threat to YOU...the YOU in my post was a hypothetical YOU not you personally..go back and read it.

Again, it was easy for you to post a poll implying that if someone had a problem with THIS language (i.e. the language in the OP) they should lighten up...either take your own advice and lighten up or get my communication ...BOTH are equally offensive.

This will be my last response to you as I generally don't like to flame back and forth with people whom I mostly like.

[LincolnMcGrath]

294. You are going on and on about a post even not made to YOU!

You made your threat directly to me. No reason to go back and read it.

I made a joke about the "call out" flamefest not the topic!

Take responsibility for what? Trying to divert Duers away from a "call out" flamefest? I take full responsibility for creating the poll.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

299. No I used the word IF...there was no direct threat:

IF you and I are in a room and you say something and I am clear you're joking..it's cool...if you said the same thing to me in public (as this message board is) I would castrate you...clear?

In order for it to be a direct threat, there would have to be specificity...since the sentence begins with IF in a HYPOTHETICAL situation there is no specificity and hence no threat...now cut the crap.

I am going out now...think about the way you treated this to;pic when it SOLELY involved violence to women versus the hysterical offense you took when it involved your precious balls. There's a breakthrough for you in there somewhere...

[LincolnMcGrath]

314. .

[Name removed]

315. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

18. Devil's advocate...

I have this friend who says to anybody having a problem with anybody else, man or woman, "just bend him/her over and give it to him/her proper."

So is my friend a misogynist, or just a misanthrope? Or just vulgar?

[RubyDuby in GA]

19. I would jokingly respond

that she should turn around and kick him square in the nuts. Give as good as you get I always say.

[wryter2000]

26. Works for me, Ruby eom

eom

[noiretextatique]

146. perhaps it would be helpful to think of it in the reverse

woman to woman: "yeah, just bend him over a chair, strap one on, and give it to him good: that will even the score"
how many men would find that "amusing?"

[geek tragedy]

10. Sounds like language from prison-bound losers. n/t

[benddem]

11. not only misogynistic

but totally disgusting!

[rastignac5]

15. Is bending a woman over a and giving it to her good a misogynistic act?

[prolesunited]

21. Not necessarily

Look at the context as elaborated upon in post #13.

Would you consider this appropriate if you felt your partner wasn't behaving as you wanted her to?

[DrWeird]

25. I haven't seen the OP...

but was the person advocating violence or just really good make-up sex?

[rastignac5]

30. If you bend your girlfriend over in anger and she doesn't want you to

then it's rape.

If you bend her over in anger and she does want it, then it's great fucking sex.

[DrWeird]

31. No kidding.

But what I'm curious about is what the OP was intending. There's several posts here then say it was obviously implying rape. Without more context I would probably assume he was talking about post-argument make-up sex.

[Misunderestimator]

209. Here's your context:

deleted sorry

[lapislzi]

58. Is it a sex thing or a power thing?

From the context it sounds like a power thing. When sex is used as a weapon or to exert power and control, it is not only misogynistic, it is abuse.

[ibegurpard]

12. I know what thread you're talking about.

And there's a number of comments, although not as disgusting or outrageous, in a similar vein.

[prolesunited]

16. Tread carefully

We have to be careful. I would like to have a discussion about something I saw posted here that bothered me without it being locked.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Naahhh. Women love strong men who abuse them.

She's probably dying to be raped by some beer can crushing, cat-killing, gun-totin', camouflage clad, 'merkun flag waving, REAL MAN!

Women don't like those "girly-men" that Ahnuld talks about. You know, guys that actually read books that aren't written by Tom Clancy, or watch movies that don't have guys with machine guns killing people or involve car crashes or bikinis and know that Dostoevski isn't a brand of vodka.

Misogynistic? No more than thinking that women are brainless childbearing machines that should have absolutely no say about anything other than diaper brands.

[porphyrian]

20. Depends on the context...

Without any context, I would say yes. However, I'm the kind of person who thinks it's funny to say extreme, inappropriate, and obsurd things, so I might say something like that in certain situations myself, and I consider myself an egalitarian-type feminist. I suppose you would have to judge by the situation and the persons involved whether or not the statement was misogynist.

[prolesunited]

23. Reread the premis and post #13

Based on that, what would your response be?

[porphyrian]

32. Still depends...

Again, you have omitted any information about the character of the people involved, the location of the incident, and whether or not anyone was hurt by the statement. If you just want validation, reword your question.

[athena]

42. Whether or not anyone was hurt?

WTF? So it's OK to make racist statements about black people (or Asian or Hispanic, or whatever) as long as you think it doesn't hurt them? It's OK to be racist as long as your "character" is OK? How would location even be relevant if we were talking about a racist comment rather than a sexist one?

How do you judge whether or not something hurts someone? Isn't it harmful to women when men talk about women like this among themselves? Doesn't this encourage men to see women as sex objects, or even rape objects? :puke:

[prolesunited]

46. Ding! Ding! Ding!

Isn't it harmful to women when men talk about women like this among themselves? Doesn't this encourage men to see women as sex objects, or even rape objects?

Thank you!
 

[Terran]

63. You're losing track of the original question.

You are conflating sexism with misogyny. Misogyny involves hate. I don't believe sexism does.

[Misunderestimator]

76. No confusion here. In the context of it, bending her over and giving it

to her was a direct response to how someone should handle a problem with a girlfriend. Sounds misogynistic to me... downright violent even.

And trust me, sexism often involves hate... usually just arrogance and ignorance, but also hate.

[Terran]

81. No, sorry.

I don't disagree that sexism can involve hate, but that is not demonstrated here. There has to be hate for it to be misogynistic. Otherwise you are misusing the word and, as I said, confusing the original proposition. You are interpreting hate into the words because of an emotional reaction to them, but there is nothing inherently hateful about the statement.

[Christof]

89. Yes, there is confusion.

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women
http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=misogynist&x=0&y=0

Main Entry: sex·ism
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sexism&x=0&y=0

Which definition do you think it fits better with? Hint: not misogyny.

[Misunderestimator]

96. LMAO... you just proved the point...

[Christof]

97. Proved that...

me and dirk are right?

:)

[Misunderestimator]

98. Or that maybe you and dirk are teenagers?

:shrug:

[Christof]

104. Haha.

Okay. Ignore the fact that you're confused between the words "misogynist" and "sexist and resort to calling me names.

:eyes:

And no, I'm not a teenager. ;)

[Christof]

106. Haha.

Okay. Ignore the fact that you're confused between the words "misogynist" and "sexist and resort to calling me names.

:eyes:

And no, I'm not a teenager. ;)

[Misunderestimator]

108. That's too bad... I may have given you some latitude if you were.

[Terran]

110. Definitely not in my case.

And what "point" did he prove? He's right. The discussion degenerated all over this thread into whether the statement is sexist, not whether it's misogynistic. You can blame me for sticking to the original question if you want, but I'm right. Check the thread. And I agree, it IS sexist (how many times must I repeat that?).

[Christof]

114. Apparently 100,000 times.

:eyes:

[Christof]

55. Haha.

I say those kinds of things to my friends (both male and female) all the time. It doesn't encourage me to go rape a woman one bit. It doesn't make me a misogynist. It doesn't make me hate women. It doesn't make me want to harm women. It doesn't mean I hate women.

Let's make a bigger issue on what Bush is doing to this country instead of arguing about a stupid phrase that was made out of jest.

[athena]

61. Do you also walk around making racist comments all the time?

I'm sure women and minorities just love this.

[Christof]

62. Ahem...

what makes you think I'm white?

I'm a Native American. I'm not white. ;)

[Misunderestimator]

77. So... you're Native American.... so what... the question still remains

Do you go around and make bigoted remarks all the time... A Native American can make just as many bigoted remarks about other racial minorities or women or homosexuals

[prolesunited]

80. Don't you know?

Since he's NOT a white male, he has complete immunity. And, heh, after putting up with all the hatred and bigotry directed toward Native Americans, if he can find the opportunity to do the same to others, he might as well take it.

[Christof]

90. I only do the same to others...

if it's directed towards me first.

Does it make it right? No, but that's just the way I work.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Surf Cowboy]

24. Out of context, I don't know.

[prolesunited]

27. Context is provided

in the thread. See post #13.

[Surf Cowboy]

53. No, not misogeny.

Sounds as if it was said jokingly, as in, a good Rogering will take her mind off your political activity.

[bobbobbins]

28. Just cuz I'm a man who suggested doing that to a woman...

doesn't make me misogynistic...if i suggested doing it to a woman who was also black, would that make me a racist too?

[prolesunited]

33. First of all, I didn't call you a misogynist

I asked if the statement sounded misogynistic.

Since you're here, feel free to explain how physically dominating a woman by bending her over and giving it to her good would be an appropriate response for her criticism of a man.

This wasn't a description of mind-blowing mutual sex. It was advocating physical aggression in retaliation for a women's comment.

Is that how you demonstrate your respect and love for women?

And, if you did the same thing to a woman based on her race, it would be a racist act as well.

BTW, I do give you credit for showing up on this thread.

[bobbobbins]

36. you're sadly mistaken

I didn't suggest doing this based on her being a woman...nor would i suggest doing it based on race...the person i suggested doing it to just happened to be a woman...i suggest doing this to all people who tell you to get a life, regardless of sex, color or creed.

[prolesunited]

38. So, you suggest physical assault against all people

"regardless of sex, color or creed" when they make a comment that you don't want to hear. Good to know. I'll be sure and stay away.

[bobbobbins]

39. Nah, only when they say "Get a life"

don't put words in my mouth

[prolesunited]

43. Oh, so the one trigger for your hostility

is "get a life"?

[bobbobbins]

47. yes, much like in back to the future

when they call mcfly a chicken...nobody, and i mean nobody calls me a chicken! And im not suggesting violence, im just suggesting a simple reminder of how awesome the guy is at having sex, and that obviously a guy with that kind of sexual prowess must have a life.

[Eloriel]

122. That explains it ALL

Sick, just sick. Sounds like an example of testosterone poisoning to me.

I'd hardly call that "sex" either. In fact, that you consider it sex is exactly what makes it tellingly sick.

[bobbobbins]

134. yes, because any sex other than missionary is just wrong

it says so in the bible...

[noiretextatique]

220. how do you know how awesome he is at having sex?

:shrug: i'm really confused now.

[Misunderestimator]

79. Get a life, man.

[geek tragedy]

83. So a sex act is a good way to retaliate against someone and teach

them a lesson?

Please stay 100 yards away from any female relatives or acquaintances of mine. Seriously.

[Cheswick2.0]

34. You said this too?

I think in the context given the person is a mysognist. Some jokes are not funny and do display a deeper truth about the person.

[BiggJawn]

29. Getting "Bent over a chair" implies that it's not voluntary..

And I don't EVEN wanna go there.

"Getting bent over a chair and fucked bloody" is how I describe what the Bush Junta is doing to us all.

doesn't sound like much fun, does it.

[Terran]

68. Not necessarily

Haven't you ever had sex involving a chair, BiggJawn? The whole thing is neutral with regard to whether force is involved.

[BiggJawn]

117. Well....OK, but it was CONSENTING Sex...

I think there is a question of consent in the original post...

Or maybe it's a matter of "All she needs is a good horse-fucking to settle her down"....

Damn! that sounds like fun....Hmmmmmmmm.....Horse fucking......:7

[Terran]

124. LOL, that's the spirit!

That's more the BiggJawn I know and lust after! Ooops, sexism!!! :evilgrin:

[Eloriel]

125. Nope

"Getting bent over a chair...

is devoid of voliion. Further, it's a response (retaliation) to something the recipient has done.

Both indicate force.

[Christof]

35. Not in the context in which it was used.

It was out of jest, I do believe.

It doesn't imply the poster is/was a misogynist.

[prolesunited]

41. I didn't say the poster was a misogynist

I asked if the STATEMENT was.

And sorry, I guess I just don't share your sense of humor. I don't think implying violence or sexual assault against women is the least bit amusing. But, heh, that's just me.

[kayell]

49. Its not just you. It's shocking how many people accept this kind of

verbal attack against women as routine, ordinary, and "nothing to get worked up about". It's just a joke like lynching jokes are just a joke.

:grr:

[lapislzi]

67. Right. It condones the use of sexuality

as a power-and-control strategy. Never OK.

[Christof]

50. Let's agree to disagree then.

[Misunderestimator]

84. "Let's agree to disagree" is one of the lamest phrases in the world

[Christof]

93. Oh, sorry.

I don't agree with your opinion. That makes me an evil and misogynistic man.

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

95. No, just lame, not evil.

[athena]

45. So a comment

about slavery that can be construed as offensive is acceptable if it's made in jest?

It's amazing how the standards change when the topic goes from racism to sexism.

[UdoKier]

37. Yes and no.

If said with any measure of seriousness, yes. If said in the presence of a woman, yes.

If it's just the bullshit men throw back-and-forth when it's "just the guys", no.

The ability to say obnoxious stuff like that around other men is a way of bonding, and it can also be an important "safety valve'. Any man with a modicum of sense can tell if his buddy is just bullshitting or if he is seriously a sicko. I wouldn't hang around with guys who'd say something like that as though they meant it.

The day it becomes taboo to say un-PC things in ANY social setting is the day a lot of people start to lose it.

I realize there are others who would take such statements seriously and emulate it, etc., but people like that already have major problems.

[athena]

48. Uh, huh,

so would you say that the ability to say racist stuff around other whites is a way of bonding among whites?

Sorry, but a discriminatory and hateful statement is discriminatory and hateful regardless of the circumstances. And suggesting that such a statement can be used for "bonding" among the dominant class is sick, to say the least.

[UdoKier]

64. The poster asked a question, I answered it honestly.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion, and will only add that as a white male, I don't "dominate" anything. Just because most of the tiny few who control everything in this country are white males, doesn't make us all dominant. I'm poor and tired, and so are most of the men I know. I don't make jokes like that, nor do I make racist jokes, but I don't fly into a hysterical frenzy when I hear one either.

If this were a more perfect world, say, the planet Vulcan, I would agree with you. If we could all behave logically and rationally and correctly all the time without going nuts. But people just aren't like that, so I'll reserve my outrage for people that start wars for fun and profit, for people that exploit workers and pollute our air and water. I'm sorrry, but I simply don't have enough outrage left for jokes that people tell, unless it is a person of importance in a public arena.

Apparently the poster is looking forward to flames between people like you and myself, and I won't participate anymore in this one.

[prolesunited]

73. LOL!

"hysterical frenzy" :eyes:


On edit: A poster made a comment that I found offensive and I was wondering if I was being overly sensitive and if men and women would see it differently. So, I constructed a poll to get feedback.

This isn't the first or last time I've brought up gender issues on the board and surprisingly, we sometimes have an interesting dialog on the topic with both sides gaining a different perspective.

I didn't ask for posters to be banned, language to be censored or demand any kind of action or response. I simply started a discussion.

Would you kindly post out the "hysterical frenzy" part in this?

[Cheswick2.0]

52. Yeah, me & my friends bond by talking about cutting men's balls off

We all know none of us would actually do it. That doesn't sound hostile to you does it... a bunch of women laughing about castrating men?

[UdoKier]

66. As long as you're not holding scissors while you joke about it...

nt

[kayell]

44. Sounds like something said by a potential (or actual) rapist nt

[athena]

51. I find it offensive to have such a statement on a thread

and it's even more offensive that some people (obviously men) are arguing that such a statement is not really harmful and is even acceptable if it's used for "bonding" among men.

I'm sure the thread would be even more painful to someone who has been raped.

I hope this disgusting thread will be locked soon.

[bobbobbins]

54. All of you are using flawed logic

You're assuming that the giving it to her good is an act I suggested based on her being a woman, which isn't true...its based on the comment she made. Theres nothing being judged other than the words coming out of her mouth. Please get the facts straight before you accuse someone of being racist/sexist/bigoted/etc...And besides, it was a joke. Get a life (pauses to be bent over chair...).

[Christof]

56. Amen.

[Cheswick2.0]

59. So you would bend a man over the chair and give it to him good?

I'm calling bull on this one Bob.

[bobbobbins]

71. Anyone who says that comment is gonna get it good...anyone

[Terran]

57. Other: Crude and sexist, yes. Misogynistic, no.

It's a sexist statement, toward both men and women. And it's extremely crude. But misogynistic? Am I not aware of the full meaning of the word? I thought it meant "woman hating". How is that statement "hateful" toward women? I am in no way condoning it, but I disagree that it's misogynistic; misogyny is akin to racism. This is more like stereotyping.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. this is how it is hateful towards women

by assuming if you just force us over and fuck us we will shut up and learn our place.
Please don't pretend that when man says this about or to a woman because he doesn't like what she said, he is saying he would do that to anyone.

[Terran]

65. The statement doesn't say anything about using force, now does it?

If that were made explicit, of course my answer would be different. Use of force is not implied here. You are interpreting it that way, but it can be interpreted other ways too.

[Cheswick2.0]

69. please

When some one doesn't like what you say and they suggest shutting you up by bending you over a chair and "giving" it to you.. I don't really give a damn if they are going to do it by force or not (of course they are). It is a mysogenist statement.

[Christof]

70. Ahem:

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women
- miso·gy·nic /"mi-s&-'ji-nik, -'gI-/ adjective
- mi·sog·y·nist /m&-'sä-j&-nist/ noun or adjective
- mi·sog·y·nis·tic /m&-"sä-j&-'nis-tik/ adjective

http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=misogynist

Saying something like "bend her over a chair and give it to her good" doesn't fit that definition now, does it?

Now here:

Main Entry: sex·ism
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
- sex·ist /'sek-sist/ adjective or noun

http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sexist&x=0&y=0

Now, that phrase "bend her over a chair and give it to her good" fits this definition.

Misogynistic? No. Sexist? Probably.

[bobbobbins]

72. you're horribly wrong

first of all...as it was stated, force was never implied...that just happens to be a position im fond of. Second of all, I'd give it to her good whether she made that statement or not, cuz its fun...I'm merely suggesting that disagreements should be worked out by makin love, not war.

[ibegurpard]

74. ROFLMAO!

The knots you've tied yourself into to justify an obnoxious statement.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terran]

85. What "knots"?

There's a big difference between "obnoxious" and "misogynistic". What can't you all focus on that, since it was the original question?

[Terran]

78. please nothing. You're not making a logical argument

You're interpreting the sentence according to your own emotional reaction to it, that's all. But if the woman willingly consents to the sex act described, how is the act misogynistic? It has to involve hate by the man for the woman--HAS to. So where is the hate? It all depends upon the context in which it occurs, and I know, we've supposedly been given the context, but there's a lot more to it than that, potentially. All I know is, most women wouldn't consent to such an act if they knew hate was involved. I'm sure there would be the rare exception. Your saying it's misogynistic doesn't make it so.

As I said: it's sexist. In most cases it's not a particularly good thing. But it's not misogynistic.

[bobbobbins]

82. theres no hate

I'm an advocate of love

[lapislzi]

86. Force is not necessarily the issue

although it could be, and that would make the conclusion more easy to draw. Force is a red herring here. The issue is the use of sex as a tool of power and coercion.

[Terran]

92. Then what about consent?

Because there is no "force", "power", or "coercion" involved if consent is given. The speaker doesn't refer to whether consent should be gotten first or not, so it's really not possible to say one way or the other.

[ibegurpard]

102. Your attempts to divert this into an argument about semanatics

are tiresome.

Edited to correct grammar since I really don't want to have another round of posts debating whether "is" is more correct than "are."

[Terran]

116. WTF? "semantics"?

The question was asked, "Is this misogynistic?" Sorry if you don't feel like being bothered with the correct usage of English words, but I'm just making my argument based on the proper definition of the word, and how very different that is from the word "sexist". If "sematics" bother you so much, then I suggest you not try to egage in the sort of debate that often goes on at DU.

[ibegurpard]

120. Yes, it is semantics

because you seem to think that every situation or statement can be neatly confined within a dictionary definition, ignoring the implicit meanings.
Stating that a woman who expresses her opinion or frustration with a man needs to be bent over a chair and given it to good is TOTALLY mysoginistic in my book. Why you would want to go to the mat to defend such a statement is beyond me. However, you can continue to waste time by defining misogyny, and then hatred, and so on until you've worn everyone down. That's why I said I'm not going down that road because you're obviously the kind of person who just likes to argue for the sake of the argument. Not going there.

[lapislzi]

119. The coercion and power

have nothing to do with consent. If a person treats a sexual act as a tool to exercise power or coercion, or to "prove a point" it changes the whole dynamic of the act. It suggests the polar opposite of a trusting, loving relationship.

The use of the language "give it to her" suggests that the act is not consensual. I can assure you that I would not consent to being bent over a chair and fucked so that someone could prove a point. That's what debate is for.

[Misunderestimator]

88. It's Misogynistic, Yes. The same thing would have never been said

if a female poster were asking advice about how to deal with her boyfriend: "just bend him over a chair and give it to him good that'll even the score"

[Terran]

101. Your example fails

Sorry, switiching the genders doesn't change anything. Given the right context, which we ARE missing here despite what some of you are saying, a woman could prove the same point with a man as a man could with a woman. Without hating him. Are you saying a woman *isn't* capable of dominating a man sexually, to a such a degree that it would make him stop criticizing her politics? I disagree. She might need a dildo to accomplish it, but she can still accomplish it.

[Misunderestimator]

107. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and provide the actual context:

Here you go: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1671059

[Terran]

121. Ohhhh...ohohoh

Well. Now that I see that this is the FULL extent of the actual context, you're not gonna like what I have to say: I think he was joking. He was responding to what was clearly a joke ("keep her or dump her"). He was offering what he thought was a humorous alternative. It's sexist as hell, but I've already said that. I still say it's not misogynistic. This doesn't really change anything, except that now I see this whole huge thread was all about reading this guy's mind, which is utterly pointless. And if the mods knew that his post was the reason for this thread, they would delete it as being against the rules.

[Misunderestimator]

127. Joking or not... why is that a criteria for whether something is

misogynistic. Never mind... you're caught up in semantics

[Terran]

148. Yes, I'm stumbling around using words correctly

while the rest of you let your emotions rule your arguments.

[Misunderestimator]

161. And you have no understanding whatsoever for why a woman would

react emotionally to such a statement. Too bad for you.

[Terran]

207. Nice, so now I'm a sociopath?

Give me a break. I understand perfectly well; I just have little sympathy for emotional reactions, no matter who they come from. Reacting with awareness and self-knowledge is preferable. This emotional lashing out has gotten you all nowhere on this thread.

I've described the statement in just about every negative way possible--sexist, extremely crude, bad--but none of that means anything to you just because I'm not willing to concede it's misogynistic too. I am your ally but you push me away because I don't conform to that last .0001% of your viewpoint. Absurd.

[Misunderestimator]

219. Absurd indeed.

One More Time. If the overwhelming (98%) majority of women who responded to this thread agree that it was misogynistic, no definition you pull out of your hat is going to change the fact that they considered it a hateful-towards-women (ergo misogynistic) statement.

Nice ally.

[Terran]

225. OMFG, you're going to pull THAT?

The majority says so, so we must be right? How many times in history has that proven to be pure bullshit?

[Misunderestimator]

228. In the rarified environment of DU, the fact that the HUGE majority of men

and women here disagree with you should be an indicator to you that the statement was hateful and offensive to women. It isn't as simple as just saying that the majority rules. That's a cop-out, and you know it.

I'm sure if we took this poll in freepland, you'd find the majority agreeing with you. That would be fun.

[VelmaD]

210. Congratulations on stereotyping EVERY woman...

who disagrees with you as "emotional".

Nope...that isn't sexist at all. :eyes:

[Terran]

222. Then what would you call it?

The illogic being utilized by *many* of the women in this thread is outrageous. See post 201 for a good example. If the argument isn't logical, then it's inherently emotional, in my book. Disagreement is one thing; ignoring demonstrable facts is another. That too is emotional.

[VelmaD]

229. Seem to me if anyone is ignoring facts around here...

it's the people who are ignoring the fact that the majority of posters on this thread and respondents to the poll interpretted the statement as hateful toward women.

Those facts can just be SO inconvenient sometimes.

Oh, and since you've already used "illogical" and "emotional"...what's next..."don't worry your pretty little head about it". :eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

87. I found it EXTREMELY offensive when I read it...

And no amount of backpeddling and explaining from someone who would say that or someone who would defend as being "a joke" would change the fact that I find it extremely offensive.

[bobbobbins]

91. i find your offense offensive

The fact that you refuse to listen to any kind of explaination regardless of the intent of the original poster is far more offensive than anything they initially said. You sound like a bush supporter...bush is king, and no matter what facts are presented, i will not change my opinion.

[Misunderestimator]

94. I find you to be a bull-headed man who can't absorb the fact

that nearly every woman (or maybe every woman, since I can't tell the gender of every one) on this thread has told you that they found it offensive. That should be enough.

[bobbobbins]

100. they may find it offensive...

but their offense isn't my problem...my comment was not focused on a woman for being a woman, but the person who made that comment who just happened to be a woman. If you want to be offended, fine. If you don't want to believe me, fine. But the fact is, that comment is left open to interpretation, and you're choosing to interpret it however you want to see it as sexist, regardless of my intent...and thats just wrong.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbobbins]

112. the ignore list

the last resort of someone who knows they're wrong

[Terran]

132. "Offensive" yes/"misogynistic" no

This is exactly what I mean by confusing the issues. I find it offensive too. But I get jumped all over because I answered a specifically-worded question with a specifically worded response. I get accused of resorting to "semantics". Well, all we have here is words words words, so semantics are kind of essential to having an intelligent debate.

[prolesunited]

99. You really need to refine

your debating strategies a little more.

[bobbobbins]

109. this from a person who habitually creates straw-men

jumps to assumptions and puts words in my mouth...

[semillama]

111. "Now Honey,

I know you're a feminist and all, and I think that's adorable, but this is grown-up talk now, and I'm the MAN."

-Peter Griffin.

(Sorry, it was the first thing that popped into my head after reading this thread)

Without context, the statement can easily be construed to be misogynistic. With context, it ends up seeming like a fairly obnoxious thing to say, but we don't know the person who says it personally, neither do we know the girlfriend. So, why not give him the benefit of the doubt?

Go pester a Republican with that energy, come back and pester this guy after Kerry gets elected!

[Misunderestimator]

115. self delete

[chiburb]

118. Hello, semi, welcome to DU ! n/t

[Ripley]

105. I couldn't stomach reading every post, but...

I think it's pretty evident that the most outrageous sexist crap being hurled comes from some teenagers. I'm not sure if it's because they're unable to get laid and are lashing out, or if they were raised that way and really think it's okay to use violence against women. Maybe both.

[chiburb]

113. Proles: "Other"

I think the comment was typical of someone who ejaculates prematurely from a tiny penis and needs to get a life. Nothing more...

;-)

[Christof]

123. DEFINITIONS:

Maybe people need to brush-up on what words mean. Here you go:

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women
http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=misogyny&x=0&y=0

Main Entry: sex·ism
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
- sex·ist /'sek-sist/ adjective or noun

http://www.merriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sexism&x=0&y=0

What the poster wrote was NOT misogynistic. It was, however, sexist. There is a difference, as you can see.

[Ripley]

126. You Dumb and Dumber Women...

I'm going to post these definitions about 10 times because you bitches are obviously STOOPID. Me, the all-knowing man, knows what behavior is seen as "hatred of women." You, the retarded females, are wrong and stoopid and have no say-so whatsoever in what behavior constitutes misogyny or sexism. After all just because I beat my wife doesn't mean I don't love her.

-- Harold the Superior Gender on Planet Earth

[ibegurpard]

128. LOL to this line:

"After all just because I beat my wife doesn't mean I don't love her."
:thumbsup:

[Misunderestimator]

131. Exactly!

[Christof]

138. Ah, how mature.

Mock me when I'm trying to make things clear.

Who needs to grow up now?

[Misunderestimator]

163. That's so funny... I haven't heard an adult use the "how mature" line

in I don't know how many years.

[Misunderestimator]

129. LOL... Give it a break with the definitions already. Here's one...

Since you seem to want to prove that the sexist statement has not misogynistic. Every definition of misogyny I can find describes it as a hatred of women. Well, how about a definition of hate:

hate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ht)
v. hat·ed, hat·ing, hates
v. tr.

To feel hostility or animosity toward.
To detest.
To feel dislike or distaste for: hates washing dishes.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hate

hostility definitely describes the comment.

[Christof]

136. What don't you understand?

You're turning that phrase under question INTO hate based on emotions.

The phrase itself isn't showing hate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

174. The phrase is showing hate by using this act as a means of force to put

her in her place. You are not defending context with your statements...you are recontextualizing.

[miss_kitty]

130. i saw that comment

i thought it was vile. a kid, or an immature man with a terrible set of experiences w/ women, or bound to have a lifetime of terrible experiences w/ women.

you know in real life, you can get those social cues that say "You said something not really funny or cool," right away. online, it's kinda hard to throw a half-drunk highball in someone's face....

[bobbobbins]

137. actually...

when i say that in public it scores big laughs.

[miss_kitty]

153. yeah i know-i gets a laugh

when you are doing the man-bonding thing. i realised you MEANT it as a joke, when i saw the OP...my immediate reaction, though, was "Hmmmm, not funny." okay by you, man?

[samplegirl]

133. Sounds like something a sex offender would say

I know a guy who not only said it but then did it.........now
his picture is on the internet as a sex offender........girlfriendless
and cant attend anything where children are present. Did he learn
anything...i dont think so still talks trash. Will never get a girlfriend again. So i hope he enjoys a caloused hand.

[chiburb]

139. That's called dating the "Jergens Sisters"

And I'll repeat what I said upthread:

The original statement was made by somebody who sounds like he's a tiny-dick, premature ejaculating guy who needs to get a life...

;-)

[mark414]

135. lighten up everyone

the poster meant no harm by it

jesus christ i hate PC people

[Christof]

140. You and me both.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chiburb]

168. You forgot "stupid"...

I suspect they might grow up when they get to high school though...

[Misunderestimator]

180. You have just called every woman on this thread DUMB and SHRILL

Congratulations! That has to be a first here. :eyes:

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[prolesunited]

160. Yes, if you just

fucked us all, we would be OK. :puke:

[chiburb]

170. THAT'S what you need!!!

I get it now!!!

Jeez...

[noiretextatique]

176. i'll be sure to tell big bubba

you're interested in getting some stressed relieved. he'd be happy to accomodate you.

[Pithlet]

191. Hey. Lighten up.

Why are you getting so bent out of shape? Geez, I hate uptight people.

[noiretextatique]

205. LOL...he just needs the stress relief

of being bent over a chair.

[chiburb]

143. Me too...

That's why I'm on a Mac...

Actually, there are 100 posts above that explain to you that whether the poster "meant no harm" or not, harm WAS caused. Do you really have so little respect for the women in this forum that if they say "stop, that hurts", or "stop, that's hateful" you go blithely on your merry way defending the "hurter"?

Maybe you didn't read the posts above?

[Misunderestimator]

149. Wow... you hate over a 100 people here... and that's just including

those who responded to this poll. Take a look at the poll results and try to learn a lesson from it.

[miss_kitty]

158. "the poster meant no harm by it"

so that makes an offensive comment okay?

[Misunderestimator]

166. Apparently it does, to a very SMALL minority of men here...

And KUDOS to all you men who replied affirmatively... :yourock:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

175. And I have a problem with people using their anti-PC to be as offensive as

they can and pretending it's harmless.

[VelmaD]

145. Jesus fucking christ...

Why am I still amazed at the complete unwillingness of some men on an alleged liberal board to get it? How many more times are we gonna go through this? The statement was sexist and could easily be interpretted as misogynistic. But of course we're just women, you know, the actual affected group...we couldn't possibly know what the hell we're talking about when it comes to sexism and misogyny.

But the bigger problem is the ridiculous level of oblivious sexism displyed in the responses to this thread. We've had a lot of the old standbys...someone trotted out "hysterical". :eyes: Then there was "lighten up" and "it was just a joke". Good grief.

Listen up guys, when a whole bunch of women tell you something is sexist and/or misogynistic...you might want to shut up and listen to them adn try to get some insight into how women percieve your statements and behavior if you ever hope to get a date again in your entire life.

[mark414]

151. i'm a stupid white man

i am not perfect. i make sexist jokes, i make racist jokes, i make gay jokes, all in the company of my friends, and not all my friends are other straight white men.

that does not mean i actually believe that shit.

[VelmaD]

157. I said it already above...

you admit to being a racist, sexist homophobe. Don't be surprised when people here call you on your shit.

[mark414]

164. whoops, you caught me

yep i hate black people, think women should stay in the kitchen, and think gays are the scum of the earth!

of course fucking not and anyone who accuses me of that is a fucking liar.

[miss_kitty]

167. "i make sexist jokes..." and fact you do it

points to a place in you that thinks it okay. thanks for the heads up, man.

[mark414]

173. JOKES

they're called JOKES

i do not take them seriously

i do not make them exclusively

you do not know me, or my friends

we all make fun of each other, using very bad stereotypes and generalizations

that includes, my white friends, my friends of color, my LGBT friends, my female friends, etc. etc. etc.

[miss_kitty]

184. yo yo yo

don't get mad at me...i understand what a joke is...i responded to a post you made. i didn't make stuff up or make any assumptions about you, based on anything other than the post YOU MADE. again, thanks for the heads up! :)

[Misunderestimator]

154. The good part is that the overwhelming majority of men who responded

agree with us... it's just the vocal few who insist on continuing to live with blinders on.

[Christof]

182. I'm not living with my blinders on...

you are. You aren't paying attention to the difference between "sexism" and "misogyny".

[prolesunited]

206. OK

so if it was *just* sexism, then it's OK. But if it *really* was misogyny, then it isn't? Is that the point that is being made with the parsing of the definitions? :shrug:

[Terran]

321. No, obviously not

Speaking for myself: sexism = bad; misogyny = extremely bad. The point of "parsing" definitions is simply that *you* asked whether the statement in question was "misogynistic", and I say it's not. I do say it's sexist, and sexism is bad too. I should have thought this was all abundantly clear already.

[Pithlet]

192. Yes

Most people aren't assholes. It's just the assholes who are the most vocal, sometimes.

[bobbobbins]

156. yeah, i guess if a whole bunch of people tell us anything...

we should believe them...lets vote for bush, half of america thinks its the right thing to do...

[Terran]

159. I AM listening

and I agree it can be interpreted as misogynistic, but it can just as easily NOT be interpreted that way. There's no way to know without reading a certain man's mind, and since we can't do that, it would be most logical to simply agree that, yes, it's sexist, and move on.

[bobbobbins]

165. yeah, it can be interpreted either way

the only way you can know is to read the mans mind...im the man, i've told you whats on my mind...give me the benefit of the doubt goddamit and stop screamin at me like i just raped all of you.

[VelmaD]

172. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when...

you stop acting all defensive and start acting like you've learned anything from the responses on this thread by women.

[Terran]

213. Oh god...not the best approach, son.

How old are you, anyway?

[Christof]

178. So what women say is right...

and what men say is wrong? Oh, and only women know what sexism is?

LOL. Give me a break!

Oh wait, wait...maybe Merriam-Webster's Dictionary is wrong too:

Main Entry: mi·sog·y·ny
Pronunciation: m&-'sä-j&-nE
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek misogynia, from misein to hate + gynE woman -- more at QUEEN
: a hatred of women

Main Entry: sex·ism
Pronunciation: 'sek-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: 1sex + -ism (as in racism)
1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
- sex·ist /'sek-sist/ adjective or noun

[VelmaD]

186. You may be able to cut and paste definitions...

but your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. I said that you might want to consider how women feel about what is and isn't sexism. It might give you insight into how women think and you might end up not spending your life a pathetic loser.

I also did not say anything remotely resembling "women are right and men are wrong". But yes, women do have the right to claim that we know what sexism is better than men do. We are the ones who have to live with the consequences of it every day. And men are the ones who have an incentive to downplay their own bad behavior to try to make themselves feel better.

[ibegurpard]

188. Dude, you're not just arguing with women.

eom

[Misunderestimator]

189. Why on earth do you keep cutting and pasting these definitions

that just prove the point? It was a HATEFUL thing to say. It was a MISOGYNIST thing to say. It was a SEXIST thing to say. It was a STUPID thing to say. And apparently a LOT OF MEN understand sexism. They are the ones that voted in the majority on this poll. Perhaps you need to take a look at the results again?

[VelmaD]

190. OH OH OH...I know the answer to that...

He keeps cutting and pasting because he doesn't have anything intelligent to say on his own. :)

[Christof]

194. Haha.

Very funny.

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

195. LOL... You got THAT right!

:thumbsup:

[Christof]

193. Because...

you aren't understanding the difference.

Once again, the phrase itself wasn't hateful towards women in any way, shape, or form.

I do agree, however, that it was a sexist thing to say. It's not misogynistic, though!

[VelmaD]

196. You just don't get it do you?

You don't think it was hateful because you were NOT the intended target. Many of the women on this board DO think it was hateful because TOO many of us know what it's like to be the target of that kind of behavior and the deep disdain (and even hatred) of women that accompanies it.

You lack empathy.

[Christof]

200. You weren't the intended target...

no women on this forum was the intended target.

Why are you getting all worked up over it?

[VelmaD]

202. Honey I am so far from worked up...

but thanks for buying into the stereotype that women can't have a legitimate complaint or opinion without getting overly emotional. :eyes:

[Christof]

211. I'm not going to argue this with you anymore.

Obviously, you can't respond to me in a civil manner, and instead,you mock me or imply that I am wrong.

I'm just trying to point out the difference between "misogynist" and "sexism", and get attacked for posting that you guys are confusing the definitions.

Last I checked, freepers (not saying you are one, in fact, you're quite the opposite of one) do nothing but attack people when they are faced with facts, correct?

[VelmaD]

214. Honey, I'm not implying it...

I'm flat out saying it. You're wrong.

And you're not "just" trying to do anything. Other than maybe fan the flames.

And frankly, if you are really leaving the discussion I don't see it as any great loss if all you can do is cut and paste definitions and then have nothing substantive to say when people disagree with you about what those definitions mean or how they apply to the current situation. Pasting those quotes over and over again doesn't make your interpretation of them correct.

[Christof]

218. Oh, ok, sorry.

I won't be posting Merriam-Websters "interpretation" of words anymore.

:eyes:

If Merriam-Webster cannot provide an accurate description of the words "misogyny" and "sexism", then who can? Oh yeah! You! I'll ask you because you know all!

:eyes:

[VelmaD]

221. OK, I'm gonna use small words this time

The definition YOU provided defined misogyny as hatred of women. Most of the women on this thread said they thought the statement showed hatred toward women. But YOU think YOU know better than anyone else and since YOU don't think it showed hatred toward women YOU must be right.

And I'm the one who thinks they know it all? Whatever. :eyes:

[Christof]

226. The phrase itself isn't hateful towards women.

You and many others are interpreting it that way.

The question was: Does this sound misogynistic to you...

"just bend her over a chair and give it to her good that'll even the score". With all feelings aside, the phrase itself is NOT hateful towards women. Even you can see that, I hope...

[VelmaD]

231. That is your interpretation.

Which is no more valid than the interpretation of the women on this board. So stop acting like your interpretation is the only truth.

[Beware the Beast Man]

150. All based on who said, how it was said,

And the context in the way it was said.

[noiretextatique]

155. i see there's much discussion of definitions

so i'll just say the statement is juvenile and based more on wishful thinking than actual experience.

[SarahB]

162. I would think so.

Sometimes even decent men say things that some people may not like, agree with, or even pushes the envelope, but you can tell the good ones from the the bad ones in the regard:

The good ones: They apologize and truly care about not offending (nor would they go to this level).

The misogynists: Don't care, don't apologize, get defensive, and go into attack mode.

[Misunderestimator]

169. Well, put, SarahBelle! That is exactly the point.

And a few have exposed themselves as just that in this thread... "The misogynists"

[chiburb]

177. As Mrs. Chiburb would say:

"What do you say to a misogynist with two black eyes"?

"Nothing. He's been told twice already."

;-)

[redqueen]

179. No.

It sounds like a joke.

[bobbobbins]

181. Thank you

finally a womans support

[Misunderestimator]

183. I was wondering which woman responded "no"...

...and I'm a bit surprised.

[redqueen]

197. I'm wondering how people on this thread respond to Dave Chappelle

or Lenny Bruce.

[ibegurpard]

198. Probably the same way I respond to Howard Stern.

He's vile.

[VelmaD]

199. I don't find Dave Chappelle funny a lot of the time.

Every time he uses the word "bitch" it makes me cringe.

[Misunderestimator]

201. I'm wondering how you would respond if you had an argument

with your boyfriend, and instead of discussing anything, he forcibly turned you over a chair and fucked you without your consent. That's what I'm wondering.

[prolesunited]

204. Why, she would laugh

It is after all a joke.

[redqueen]

212. No, because that would *not* be a joke.

Is it really so difficult to distinguish whether a statement is made in jest or all seriousness?

[redqueen]

208. The thing is

it's obviously a joke.

If it was said in seriousness, I would think it was a misogynist statement. I guess you could say it's a misogynist joke, but since it *is* a joke... I'm not getting my panties in a wad about it.

[Misunderestimator]

215. Then, you can leave it to the rest of us to get our panties in a wad...

You seem to have made a couple of friends here... that's a silver lining.

[redqueen]

217. Why the bitterness?

I think Chappelle is funny. I think Bruce was funny.

I don't think that line was particularly funny, but I still thought it was pretty obvious it was meant as a joke.

[Misunderestimator]

223. So what if it was a joke... does that make it NOT misogynistic?

Just like racist jokes and homophobic jokes are bigoted, one can't always hide behind "I was just joking."

[redqueen]

227. I already said you could call it a misogynist joke

And you can call half of Chappelle's shows racist jokes.

Some people laugh at 'bad taste' jokes. This thread shows us which people wouldn't.

And what does 'can't hide behind' mean? Are you accusing the person who originally posted it of having written it in all seriousness? Did you read it as serious, or did you take offense to a joke?

[Misunderestimator]

232. It does NOT matter whether it was a joke or not... that was not the...

question. Why are you defending a misogynistic joke?

If someone tells me an insulting joke about lesbians, I find it to be insulting and offensive. In fact, I find it to be MORE offensive, because it is in the context of a joke.

[Christof]

235. It wasn't a misogynistic joke!

Geez!

If it were a misogynistic joke, I wouldn't laugh at it in a public forum!

[Misunderestimator]

239. Yes it was.

Bye now... :hi: I've had enough of the brick wall.

[Christof]

258. Ok.

Take the mature road and ignore me then.

:eyes:

[redqueen]

241. Yeah, actually it was

The same way any off-color joke is racist or sexist or whateverist... it's misogynist.

Would you say Stern's jokes aren't sexist?

[noiretextatique]

246. why all the arguing? it was stupid, tasteless, juvenile

and idiotic. why defend that with such ferocity? clearly, some people were offended...what is the problem with that?

[redqueen]

237. We're just different, then.

When I heard Paul Rodriguez joke about why Mexicans drive slow in the fast lane, I cracked up.

I'm not defending any particular type of off-color joke... I'm defending all jokes.

I know you obviously don't agree with me, but IMO the entire human race needs to lighten up. If it's serious, fine... there's a reason to get upset. If it's not, there's not.

The answer to the question above is yes. It's a misogynistic comment. I answered incorrectly above, because I had added more to the question than was there.

Yes, it's misogynist. However - it's not offensive to me, as a woman, because it's a joke and I understand it as such.

[Misunderestimator]

244. Yes, we are vastly different. Bigoted jokes are a coward's way of showing

their prejudice.

[redqueen]

256. Or, conversely, they can be perceived as finding humor in our differences

Regarding off color jokes in general -- I wonder why it is that we're supposed to celebrate our differences, but never joke about them. Why are they off limits?

Regarding the statement we're discussing - I don't think it was funny - obviously many found it to be hurtful. However I don't think it was meant to be, so I'm not going to nail the person to a cross for not realizing how offensive their words were when they wrote them.

People in today's society were raised on films depicting women in horrid situations, and they've been conditioned to find it all 'no big deal'. Showing them how big of a deal it can be is important - to me it's paramount, in fact. But IMO doing so in the manner it was done on this thread is actually counterproductive.

Instead of starting another, divisive thread about it... I would think making a comment on the same thread about how it may have been meant in jest but was actually hurtful would have been FAR more effective. I guess indicative of my tendency to lean more towards rehabilitation than punishment, though.

[Misunderestimator]

264. Our DIFFERENCES? So that was a funny joke of his becase....

women are different in that they can be forced to be bent over a chair and "given it?"

You're not making a point here.

And someone who tells a joke about lesbians that insinuates that all lesbians are fat, ugly, man-hating, bull dykes (which is how most of those jokes go), is celebrating the DIFFERENCE between me and straight women?

[redqueen]

276. No... I didn't say this joke was doing so

In fact, I specifically made that clear in the post you responded to.

I didn't say the jokes celebrated the differences... I said jokes JOKE about the differences.

[Misunderestimator]

282. The point remains that they are offensive and they often point out

"differences" that don't even exist. Which is why I posted my analogy of lesbian jokes. Most lesbians I know are just the same as most straight women I know... varied in weight and looks. That most lesbian jokes would make fun of them for being ugly and fat and bullish is extremely offensive.

So lesbian jokes "joke" about the difference between gay women and straight women. Gay women are all fat, ugly and man-hating while all straight women are thin, attractive and love men. See my point?

[redqueen]

286. I do see your point

However... at this point in the conversation (one I've had many many times with many many people) I can't help but wonder why it is that it's easy for some people to joke about things, but not others.

I've seen threads joking about Irish drinking habits, Slavic peens, etc... and those never seem to denigrate into flamefests. Maybe someone will pop in with a complaint but it seems they're usually informed it's all in jest, and then it ends.

I find the difference in responses fascinating.

[Misunderestimator]

296. I will never find it funny to be called a fat, ugly, bull dyke.. NEVER

No matter if someone prefaces it with "This is a joke..."

And I don't think you meant to use the word denigrate in the context you did, but it is kind of funny that the whole point is that this "joke" was denigrating to women.

And I also don't find other denigrating jokes about other races or nationalities or genders or anything else that divides us funny. It's what keeps us all divided.

[redqueen]

302. But they're not calling *you* that

Just like Paul Rodriguez, when he jokes about Mexicans driving slow in the fast lane, isn't calling *me* a bad driver. They're joking about stereotypes.

And here again I perceive a dichotomy -- keep our cultures alive, celebrate our differences... but never joke about them, that's divisive.

[Misunderestimator]

305. And that they make a STEREOTYPICAL statement about a whole group of

people of which I am a member, that is patently UNTRUE, that's FUNNY? No, I don't understand how it's humorous. And I don't understand how a joke about Mexicans driving slow in the fast lane is funny either.

[redqueen]

309. So you thought the skit on SNL was horrid, then?

I thought it was funny...

Paul asked if everyone knew why Mexicans drive slow in the fast lane... because they don't understand white people have JOBS to get to!

Do you also not find Steve Harvey's jokes not funny?

Or Bernie Mac?

[Terran]

216. Oh come ON, play fair now!

"...he forcibly turned you over a chair and fucked you without your consent."

Is that what the OP said? No. You are blatantly putting words in his mouth. Try to at least stay within the lines, jesus! It's like arguing with ...no, no, mustn't say that! (smacking self upside head).

[Misunderestimator]

224. No, I did not put words in his mouth...

Edited because I misread your post as "my" instead of "his".

But again, I did not put words in his mouth. This was the statement: "just bend her over a chair and give it to her good... that'll even the score"

I just exchanged the feminine pronouns for masculine ones.

[Terran]

238. Yes you did:

"forcibly" and "without her consent". Pretty key concepts to this whole argument, would you say? They don't appear in the original.

[Misunderestimator]

242. That was the implied part.... If you don't think that was part of it...

you didn't read it right.

[Christof]

185. I'm glad someone can tell the difference between

jocularity and seriousness.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

253. Redqueen!! Total copout...Amos and Andy were just kidding too!

did that make them any less bigoted?

[donheld]

187. this is really a no brainer

that's one of the most misogynistic statements i've heard in a long time

:bounce:

[Pithlet]

203. The person who made that statement

Is obviously a very intelligent person with a refined sense of humor and is a wonderful addition to DU. Besides, it's okay to say whatever you want as long as you're joking.

</sarcasm>

[HEyHEY]

230. Doesn't being misogynistic mean the person has a fear of women?

I'd say it's a prick, sexist thing to say, but he doesn't sound scared of women. Unless I have takent he meaning too literal.

[Misunderestimator]

234. Not fear... just hate. Though I'd say fear would go along with it in...

many cases.

[asthmaticeog]

303. Fear of women is gynophobia, not misogyny.

Since we're spending so much time here parsing definitions, I thought I'd kick in. :)

Oh, regarding the question in the original post: it's misogynistic as hell. Get thee to a fraternity, neanderthal.

[Darranar]

233. Yes, and I'm a man. n/t

[LanternWaste]

236. But above and beyond that

Misogynistic? Yes, obviously. But above and beyond that, I think it illustrates the civility and class (or, in this case-- the *lack* of civility and class) of the person saying it.

But that's par for the course these days... the use of manners is laughed at by many people. The "in your face" attitude is as common as dirt. Objectifying women is a billion dollar industry and contemporary resording stars get huge contracts and a large fan count by "singing" about violence towards women.

Justifying it as humor/art does absolutely nothing to erase the denigration it causes and the further validation of the objectification it causes. It dishonors the target and exemplifies the speaker for what he is... debased-- a man who has allowed the demons of his life to overcome his better nature and takes that loss out on others.

(Just my opinion about something I see far too often...)

[Misunderestimator]

247. Well put. Thank you.

[MrScorpio]

240. It's the second half that makes it misogyny

The first part is just a plain hornitude

[VelmaD]

243. Thank you for finally pointing that out.

There's been a lot of back and forth about whether or not there's consent involved and how much fun getting bent over can be if it's consensual. Everyone keeps ignoring the part about "that'll even the score".

[MrScorpio]

251. It's almost like no one has ever heard of make up sex

Now if you're trying to use sex as revenge, that's where the problems come in

[VelmaD]

254. Makeup sex is GREAT...

Just "fucking" someone to "even the score" is a completely different matter altogether. I think we're on the same wavelength here. :)

[MrScorpio]

257. Okay, you and me are cool

So what's up with everyone else and this flame war?

I'm dreading a wade through it. Besides, DU is really acting up right now.

[VelmaD]

262. It is being kinda twitchy...

and I'm on a T1 line at work. :shrug: I think maybe we're clogging things up. :)

You want the whole thing in a nutshell. Some guy made an idiotic comment in another thread. A lot of women on this thread think it was sexist and misogynistic. A small number of very loud guys want to believe that they know more about what is sexist and misogynistic than women do. We're not putting up with them. That's the short and sweet version. :)

[bobbobbins]

266. i think the short and sweet version would be...

a bunch of women took something i said the wrong way and blew it out of proportion...and now they won't admit that they could have possibly misinterpreted my words

[VelmaD]

268. Or the short version could be...

that you said something stupid and and sexist and instead of apologizing you're minimizing, deflecting, and backpeddaling like crazy.

[LincolnMcGrath]

278. You have never said anything sexist?

Think back to the sex thread days!

[MrScorpio]

275. So tell me this, Bob

Are you sorry about what you said? Did you know you said a bad thing, right after you said it?

[redqueen]

277. In all honesty I don't think he did.

And additionally, I think if the issue were addressed right after his post in the original thread, rather than using this method (which I won't say more about since it's obvious that......), that he could have been shown how the comment was hurtful without the flamefest.

But hey... some people just like to fight.

[LincolnMcGrath]

281. "Calling out" Duers in a separate thread was against DU policy

At least it used to be.

[prolesunited]

284. It's obvious what?

As stated previously, this is how this thread started:
A poster made a comment that I found offensive and I was wondering if I was being overly sensitive and if men and women would see it differently. So, I constructed a poll to get feedback.

This isn't the first or last time I've brought up gender issues on the board and surprisingly, we sometimes have an interesting dialog on the topic with both sides gaining a different perspective.

I didn't ask for posters to be banned, language to be censored or demand any kind of action or response. I simply started a discussion.

I did NOT name the poster or cite the thread in which it was found.

[MrScorpio]

289. Tell me this, Proles

I'm not taking the time to read through every post, so I'm going to get to the point.

Despite, the wrongness in what he said. Do you feel that he feels the need for contrition since he's made it?

What could be happening here is a defense mechanism triggered on his part from a perceived attack.

He may feel that he did wrong, and may even admit that he did it, but if he feels that perceived attack he's reacting to it.

I'm very interested in knowing that he HE knows that he did wrong.

[redqueen]

291. Hmmmmm

Is it really the outright naming of the person in question, or is it more the act that's against the rules? I might be mistaken, but IIRC it's the act, not the naming. I'm sure you don't want me to go find out, so I won't.

Either way, I still think the more productive way of dealing with the comment would have been to address the person directly, in the thread where the comment was made. Less conflict, more understanding that way, IMO.

[miss_kitty]

313. not trying to fight here but :)

wouldn't that have just hijacked the thread to address it there? i saw that post when it was fresh and thought some thoughts and looked at the low number of posts the guy had and thought "Offensive and immature. I'm not touching it, I think it's a joke." but as it is online, you can't tell, especially when you don't know the person who made the post.
but the this thread started up.

when you have 50,000 people signing up and a set of rules, you have about 50,001 different interpretations of the rules. and of what is offensive. and what is interpreted differently than the posters intent.

i think the flamefest would have occurred on the originating thread, BUT that's just MHO, and i don't intend to hurt anyone by that assessment of the situation. :)

[JohnLocke]

248. Yes (nt).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

249. Does this statement sound MISANDRISTIC to you?

Said in response to someone talking about being criticized by boyfriend:

"just bend him over a chair and bone him up the ass good that'll even the score"

[DrWeird]

263. Not really.

I had this roommate who would say it about men, women, animals, inanimate objects...

He once came home from a final exam with a smile and I asked him how he did, he told me he "totally bent that test over and fucked it up the ass."

[Christof]

273. Not at all.

[ibegurpard]

255. I was just discussing this with a female acquaintance

I told her the statement and the situation it was in reply to. Her first reaction was her mouth dropped open. I asked if she found it funny or offensive. She said that she thought it was funny but with the caveat that it was just outrageous. We discussed it more and agreed that it would be funny if it were coming from someone we knew didn't actually hold such views and was making the statement for the purpose of it being held up to ridicule for being so outrageous.
So in that context, I could find the humor. However, people here don't know the person who made the statement and they don't know how he actually feels about women. There is the added context of threads in the lounge with comments along the lines of "no, I wouldn't date a freeper but I would fuck one." Again, it's virtually impossible to give someone the benefit of the doubt with borderline humor when you don't have facial expressions, nonverbal cues and a history with the person making the statements.

[bobbobbins]

261. Thank you for that...

I'm the person who made that comment and as I've said 10 times before...it was just a joke...don't take life so seriously...if its not your type of joke, just ignore it...no, it doesn't give away some hidden predjudice i have, i like women just as much as anyone else, i just made a joke. About not knowing the people...i'd think considering this is a liberal site, most people should understand that I'm a liberal as well, and believe everyones equal and all that and no, i don't hate women, nor do i think men are superior in any way. But i won't apologize for making a joke that a bunch of people want to blow out of proportion and make it something its not.

[VelmaD]

267. Here's what you have to understand...

this site gets inundated with disruptors and when you come in as a newbie and post something that comes across as very sexist...you have to be ready for people to question whether or not you're really a liberal.

[bobbobbins]

271. conservatives only do it missionary

that should have been your first big tip off

[redqueen]

270. Well maybe you could consider

at least understanding how it could be hurtful to someone who's been raped, or the victim of domestic violence.

Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor told off color jokes to highlight problems in society. Howard Stern does it just to get a laugh and piss people off. If you're not really concerned with hurting someone by making comments like that, you could at least understand how they'd be offended, since they're not expecting that sort of thing here.

Listening to Stern and getting upset is stupid, since you have to seek him out to be upset. But reading an innocuous thread and running into a comment like that... there's really no way someone could expect it.

Perhaps you can see how those who are more sensitive to the coercive aspect of the act in your comment might have misunderstood... and apologize for inadvertently offending anyone. You must admit the phrase 'even the score' does indeed convey revenge as the motive for the act. Using an act as revenge cannot in any logical way be construed as being consensual, since if it were consensual, it could not possibly be a vengeful act.

[bobbobbins]

274. i understand how people could possibly be offended

and i see it as a chance for them to break down that barrier and deal with whatever issue it is thats upsetting to them. So not only is it a joke, but its also a community service.

[Name removed]

280. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

283. Or not.

There is no way that any person is going to come to the realization that coerced sex acts are nothing to be offended by.

You can either be offended by it or not, but you're fooling yourself if you expect everyone to agree on what is and is not offensive. Since what you posted involves something that is actually criminally punishable, it's pretty hard to come to the conclusion that the comment should in no way be interpreted as offensive.

[Christof]

269. Good for her.

You can tell that the original post was in jest. Obviously, you're going to get responses that are going to be the same--funny.

It's obvious that the person who posted that phrase in question didn't mean it seriously.

As far as labeling it, it was sexist, not misogynistic. Some people just don't understand the difference, and they blame me for their lack of understanding.

[Skittles]

260. of course it is

nt

[put out]

293. Of course.

Mean, nasty not in a fun way, advocating mistreatment and abuse and revenge for a mere comment.

Methinks the speaker of the joke needs to have an a$$ kicked. Or maybe he just needs to be "done real good, that'll even the score."

OP, that was weak and a comment a real man would never speak.

[DrWeird]

292. Is "doggie style" misogynistic?

Now that I have your attention...

There's a lot of argument over the phrase "bend her over the chair." Some people are saying that it's advocating rape, others, including me, are just assuming that's advocating hot make-up sex. Now, I'm not up to date on the latest academic feminist thought, but there was a theory being kicked around a few years back that said all sex was violent and misogynistic. At least those positions where the man is on top or behind. This theory I never really understood, but it's the only reason I could think of why some would think "bend her over a chair" is misogynistic. So if somebody could explain that to me, I'd appreciate.

Now what seems to be far more likely to be misogynistic is the propagation of the idea that hysterical women just need to be fucked. If that was the OP's intention then it's clearly misogynistic. But I don't know, I can't read minds. I suspect it is, but I'm not going to point fingers.

[redqueen]

295. The position isn't the issue... it's the 'even the score' part

It implies revenge as the motivation... revenge necessiates lack of pleasure on the part of the receiver. Hence the comment implies rape.

Clearer?

[Misunderestimator]

300. Now WAIT a minute! From what you just said...

... it would follow... that you think it's ok to joke about rape! (Since you keep insisting that it was a joke in all your other posts.)

[redqueen]

308. I think it's OK to joke about just about anything

After all, they're only words. That doesn't mean I don't think jokes can be offensive and tasteless and not funny... just that joking is joking. I find Andrew Dice Clay to be not only not funny, but also a grade-A asshole and a contributing factor to assholishness everywhere, just like Stern. But I hesitate to think the same about our fellow DUer since I take them at their word that they didn't mean to joke about rape.

If I'm wrong, and they did... then ... well... I think it's obvious what I think.

[Misunderestimator]

311. Ok... How about this then...

Forgetting such examples as "driving slow in the fast lane" ... what about jokes calling you a greasy, jobless, wetback, who comes to this country to take our jobs or our welfare!

This is a public forum, it is NOT your living room. When someone says things here, they take the chance of OFFENDING a lot of people. There are LIMITS to humor.

[Misunderestimator]

301. "If that was the OP's intention then it's clearly misogynistic"... it was

I read the original thread and you can find it if you want to bother searching for a portion of it. It was definitely the intention.

[bobbobbins]

298. to prove that im not misogynistic...

anyone who wants to bend me over a chair and give it to me good can be my guest. I offer all that is me to you.

[LincolnMcGrath]

320. lol

:silly: Dude!
We are only allowed to make fun of deadbeat dads and worthless hubbys without being assaulted by some here. Take your lumps and go about your day smiling.

[curse10]

322. Locking

this has just turned into a flame fest.