I want this gun...

[Archae]

On the History Channel's "Mail Call" they are showing the Glock Model 18 selective fire pistol.

It can be fitted with a 33-round magazine and switched to full auto.

[Droopy]

1. What the hell do you need a gun like that for?

Freeper infestation?

[Archae]

2. Just for the hell of it.

At a range in Texas I fired an Uzi on full auto.

What a rush!

[BOHICA06]

3. At .20 a pop - you can ...

ruin a $20 Bill in hurry. Fire up a couple of hour on the reloading bench in less than a minute.

Fun, but I liked when Uncle Sam was feeding my full-auto needs.

[DoNotRefill]

6. If you're paying $.20 a round for 9mm ball....

you're shopping in the WRONG stores. Look around, and you can find it for $.10 a round for new (reloadable) commercial production, and considerably cheaper for corrosive surplus ammo.

[short bus president]

39. Buddy, you sure got the wrong handle

for a reloader!

:P

Besides, why futz with full-auto 9mm? The ONLY cost effective solution for serious full-auto target vaporization is to custom-craft your own .22LR Gatling Gun. http://loux.8m.com/gatling.htm

[DoNotRefill]

49. Why bother with a .22lr...

when you have an 8mm beltfed? You can get ammo for that @.05/rd

Hand-cranked "gatlings" are a joke. They're toys.

[Nlighten1]

53. They aren't a joke if...

you are on the recieving end of one.

:)

[DoNotRefill]

55. but by the time somebody's set one up....

you've had time enough to either run away or close with them and beat the crap out of them and take their toys.

[Wonk]

4. An incredible surge of power, like God must feel when he's holding a gun?

Cletus: Are you some kind of moron?
Homer: Yeah, but...


Moe: And that's how, with a few minor adjustments, you can turn a regular gun into five guns.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F01

[bratcatinok]

15. I fired an Uzi at a range in San Antonio.

I didn't like it because I used up too much ammunition before I even knew it.

[DoNotRefill]

5. Sorry, you can't have it.

Unless, of course, you have Law Enforcement creds (and a VERY understanding boss), or are an Evil Class 3 dealer with a PD demo letter. There isn't a single transferable one of these on the registry.

There ARE, however, a handful of transferable Browning P-35 "hi-powers" out there, and you can get ultra-high cap mags for those, too.

Piss on Reagan's grave for signing "FOPA" '86.....

[imax2268]

7. since the ban is lifted...

I'm going to get one of these...

[DoNotRefill]

11. That's a Sea-Whiz....

AKA the CIWS. It was not covered by the AW ban, and is not legal for private citizens to own.

[lazarus]

19. why is it illegal?

Does the NRA know about this? it's my 2nd Amendment right to own any weapon, because I might need it to fight off the black heeeeliocopters.

[DoNotRefill]

50. Are you serious?

they're illegal because they're post 1986 machineguns. Only a very few "special" people can have them.

[Rhiannon12866]

8. And who are you planning to shoot with this?

You know that the D.A. can requisition your computer and retrieve this thread, LOL!:D

I am a former member of the NRA who used to shoot competitively, but believes in gun control and the renewal of the AWB. We don't need automatic weapons. Surely you must agree on that.:shrug:

[imax2268]

9. paper targets...

I would take it to the local range and fire it off...shoot it at some paper targets...or some bottles...heh heh heh...I wonder what the waiting period is for one of those...?

[Rhiannon12866]

12. That's what I used, paper targets

We had to be incredibly accurate, in competition. I learned that my grandmother was also a good shot, LOL! She fired at bottles.:-)

[DoNotRefill]

10. If you're familiar with guns...

you know that the AWB only covered SEMI-automatic firearms. Machineguns (or automatic guns like the Glock 18) were in no way regulated by the AW ban, and the sunsetting of the ban in no way made machineguns or automatic weapons legal.

[Rhiannon12866]

13. Yes, I am familiar with what the AWB regulated

and I know that it had a lot of holes, but feel that it was better in place, than not. Machine guns may not be legal, but guns that can fire off a clip of 200 rounds in less than a minute are now legal, as well as those that can penetrate police body armor. Why do we need this?! I reject the NRA argument that hunters need such weapons. Cops are in favor of AWB. How can we go against this?:shrug:

[DoNotRefill]

14. It was completely meaningless.

First off, when was the last time you heard of a 200 round clip?

Secondly, you DO understand that "assault weapons" generally were intermediate or lower power (ie pistol round), right? And you do realize that the ability to penetrate a vest isn't one of "assault weapon or not", but rather one of mass and velocity, (if it's got a high enough mass moving at a high enough velocity, it'll penetrate regardless of what kind of gun it came from) right? Your average deer rifle will blow right through a bulletproof vest.

ALL that the ban did was make it illegal to put a knife on the end of a rifle if it was made after a certain date. Random drive-by bayonetings aren't that big of an issue for most people. The ban didn't do a single thing to prevent a single crime. It didn't drop the amount of "firepower" on the streets by a single iota. It didn't keep a single criminal from getting a gun. For this, we lost 20 seats in Congress, we lost the 2000 election because of Gore's FOID card program (without that, he'd have taken Tenn., and f*** Florida), and if it came up for a serious vote in 2004, we'd have lost more. Gun control plays well in parts of the Northeast and California. It's the kiss of death in much of the rest of the country.

How much political capital should we spend on something that had no real effect other than to piss off a good part of 100 million voters?

[Dookus]

16. Every poll

I've seen says that Americans overwhelmingly favor renewing the AWB. How can we be on the wrong side of it, politically, when the vast majority of Americans support it?

[DoNotRefill]

18. because polls can easily be skewed.

as for "the vast majority of Americans support it", well, that was true of segregation, too. That didn't make it right.

BTW, it wasn't "every poll". Polls commissioned by anti-gun groups show gun control is tremendously popular. Polls commissioned by pro-gun groups show gun control is tremendously UNpopular. The truth is in between. There is a tiny group of people out there that are rabidly anti-gun (I'd be shocked if it was over 100K). There's a much larger group of people out there that are rabidly pro-gun, but it's still not huge (<5 million). Then there are the actual legal gun owners (between 80-100 million americans, every one of whom is eligible to vote) out there. It's one thing to piss off the rabid pro-gunners. It's quite another to piss off all (or a sizeable fraction of) gun owners. And the AW ban in '94 pissed off a LOT of gun owners.

[MrBenchley]

20. Gee, refill...

Love to see those polls about segregation...

And as for what's right and wrong, it';s worth noting that the politicans pimping for assault weapons are pretty much also those who were the last gasp of Jim Crow--or who are outrightly racist now.

Like the fuckwits in the Second Amendment Caucus.

[Dookus]

25. A variety of

polls from a variety of disinterested sources (neither from gun control groups or pro-gun groups) showed upwards of 70% of Americans supported renewal of the AWB.

That is not "skewing". That's a fact.

[MrBenchley]

27. The secret to refill's claim

is that to the true believers the world is divided into "pro gun" and "anti gun"....and so such entities as the NAACP, the New England Journal of Medicine and Hadassah are all "anti gun"...

You might take a look at the peculiar enemies list of the NRA...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=15904

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=17304

If you'd like to see an even more absurd version of this, you might take a look at the "gay" gun group, the Pink Pistols, and THEIR enemies list...which mysteriously omits anti-gay folks like Fred Phelps and the like, but DOES include Barney Frank and Barbra Streisand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=20608

[DoNotRefill]

28. And how were those polls worded?

Look at how many people here at DU think the AW ban was about machineguns...

[MrBenchley]

31. Hell, look at how many people are trying to pretend

it was "only cosmetics"...

[DoNotRefill]

35. OK, then explain what parts were not cosmetic...

eom

[MrBenchley]

40. Easier to show what a lie that is

by pointing out that the gun lobby scuttled their own disgraceful "immunity from liability" bill rather than risk a renewal....

"WASHINGTON - In a last-minute turnaround, Senate Republicans scuttled their election-year gun legislation Tuesday after Democrats added amendments to extend an assault weapons ban and require background checks on all buyers at private gun shows.
The 90-8 vote against the bill handed Democrats and gun control advocates an unexpected victory in the GOP-controlled Congress. It all but eliminated any chance for gun legislation this year.
Beginning in September, the gun industry can resume making, importing and selling military style semiautomatic weapons that were outlawed a decade ago. Nonetheless, Democrats say they now have the Senate on record as supporting the assault weapons ban by a 52-47 vote even though Republican leaders have vowed they won't allow the House to consider it this year."

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2004/03/03/WorldNation/Senate.Republicans.Scuttle.Gun.Bill-624362.shtml

Even funnier, if that claim were true, it would mean you "pro gun democrats" have been beating your meat all these months for "only cosmetics"....and doesn't that make all our RKBAers a bunch of pathetic weenies?

[DoNotRefill]

43. so what part of the ban wasn't cosmetic?

please don't change the subject, just answer the question clearly.

[MrBenchley]

45. Gee, refill....

Rather than point to the specific guns that were banned, I'm going to leave it where I left it...with the gun lobby showing what a steaming crock of shit that "it's only cosmetic" claim was.

And let's not forget the proposed bill, SB 1431, which took care of any of this dishonest sniveling about "cosmetics"...

[DoNotRefill]

48. But weren't the "banned" guns...

simply released without the bayonet lugs as "post-ban" guns?

Did it become harder to buy an AR-15 after the ban went into effect?

[MrBenchley]

54. Gee, refill, show me

where I said the gun industry wasn't corrupt scum....

[Wonk]

72. Magazine size, folding stocks, bayonet lugs, flash suppressors as examples

nt

[gpandas]

34. hmmm...

the ban did nothing different, but it pissed off most gun owners?

[DoNotRefill]

38. what the ban did...

was cause stupid-looking (and generally uncomfortable) thumbhole stocks to be put on imported guns. It also caused bayonet lugs to be removed. They eventually got around the thumbhole stock requirement by making enough parts to put into the guns so that they'd qualify as "US manufactured", despite the fact that the receivers, trunnions, barrels, and most parts still came from overseas.

[northzax]

59. stupid looking?

so what's really important is how the gun looks? I thought it was important to have a gun for self protection, against a tyrannical government, but it turns out it's just important to have a really cool looking gun?

what do you figure the average penis size of people who care about cosmetic features on guns is?

[DoNotRefill]

63. Undoubtedly the same as the average penis size...

of the rest of the male population.

Why are anti-gunners so obsessed with penis size?

[MrBenchley]

42. Of course...

Because the ban covered "only cosmetics" which "every gun owner" desperately needs and cannot live without. (snicker)

The wonder about the RKBA cause is not that it's horseshit, but that it's such implausible horseshit.

[MrBenchley]

21. You will notice that even the scum that let the AWB lapse

didn't dare try to pretend in public there was a good reason to do so...they hid behind procedural bullshit. (Chimpy didn't ask us/Congress didn't bring it up.)

They didn't do that because assault weapons are POPULAR...they know that nobody but the lunatic fringe oppose the ban.

[GiovanniC]

29. It's All About Voter Motivation

My dad is a gun-owner, a hunter, and a member of the NRA. He's also a former Union president, a current Union member, a working-class guy and typically a pretty loyal Democrat. In 2000, he voted for Bush.

He voted for Bush and other Republicans because the NRA told him that "they" (the Democrats) were coming to put him in a national registry and round up the guns. They could point to things like the Assault Weapons Ban and other gun laws in order to support their position. Whether you consider them extreme "gun nuts" or proud "gun owners", they are highly motivated to vote out anyone who they see challenging their Second Amendment rights. Gun laws are EXTREMELY important issues for them.

On the other hand, gun control tends to be a less critical issue for those who support it, meaning that they will not vote someone out of office merely for refusing to support certain gun control initiatives. Because those opposing gun control ARE willing to do this, it is much more politically expedient to keep the "gun nut" crowd happy than it is to keep the "gun control nuts" happy.

[sundog]

33. Since when does the opinion of the majority of Americans...

bear any relevance in this country? :eyes:

Sorry, I'm feeling cynical today.

[Rhiannon12866]

70. Thanks. What I heard was that 75% of Americans favored the

renewal of AWB, not to mention 35% of the NRA membership, itself. What does it take?!:grr:

[Rhiannon12866]

68. I agree that I exaggerated about the clip,

but the clips used in these guns can fire off many rounds in a very short time. As someone who used to shoot competitively, haven't these people ever heard of aiming?! I still support the AWB, as do three-quarters of the American public and 35% of the NRA membership. In the 10 years that the AWB was in place, not one police officer was killed from fire by an automatic weapon. AWB is actively supported by cops on the line. They are the ones confronting guns on the street, so I just can't argue with this.

[RivetJoint]

17. THe AWB had nothing to do with automatic weapons

It banned cosmetic features of several semi-automatic weapons. It was already illegal, except with strict licensing provisions, to privately own an automatic weapon in the US.

[MrBenchley]

22. Yeah, just ones that could be converted to automatic....

[RivetJoint]

23. Yeah, just any banger can do that

sarcasm off

[MrBenchley]

24. Who are you trying to kid, really?

[RivetJoint]

26. The same people who thought that

the AWB actually did anything useful.

[MrBenchley]

30. Well, you haven't fooled me...and I know it did something useful

[DoNotRefill]

37. what?

besides cost us 20 seats in congress that we couldn't afford to lose?

[MrBenchley]

41. Gee, refill....

Funny you ain't annoyed one bit at the NRA lying about Democrats...but Democrats standing up for principle and needed legiuslation gives you such a conniption.

[DoNotRefill]

44. come on, answer the question.

what did the AW ban do that was actually beneficial and NOT cosmetic?

[MrBenchley]

46. I'll let Charles Schumer answer it for me, refill...

You know, he's one of those liberal Democrats our RKBAers spend so much time attacking--when they aren't pimping for the gun industry and the GIP.

"The assault weapons ban has proven to be effective since it was enacted. In fact, the proportion of banned assault weapons traced to crimes has dropped by 65.8% since 1995, according to data from the Department of Justice. In 1995, the first year that the ban went into effect, assault weapons represented 3.57 percent of all crime guns recovered from crimes. By 2002, assault weapons represented only 1.22 percent of the number of guns used in crimes. "

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/2004/PR02870.AWBpart2091004.html

[DoNotRefill]

51. and when you add up pre and post ban guns traced...

what result do you get?

[MrBenchley]

52. You get a bunch of gun nuts slamming Democrats

and pulling "facts" out of their asses.....

[RivetJoint]

56. Proves the lies and statistics

line is true.

[MrBenchley]

57. Yup, the gun lobby lies and the statistics are against them

What's more, their lies aren't even particularly convincing.

[MadHound]

32. Well, one thing useful the AWB did was to keep grenade launchers

From being attached to weapons. That in and of itself is a good thing. Tell you what, why don't you move into my old neighborhood, where there are a number of dueling crack houses. Where the people who run those crack houses don't go out and buy these guns, but go out to the 'burbs, where are the good people are scared shitless for no good reason, and rip off all of those fine, legal guns, with or without grenade launcher, then bring them back to shoot up the neighborhood. Then talk to me about how useless the AWB, or other gun control measures is. Tell me how you feel it is your God given right to throw a grenade launcher onto your gun after a grenade has come through your window. Tell me how useless the AWB is after the fourth or fifth time gunfire rakes your car. Then I'll listen.

All these guns are for is simply to play upon the baseless fears of middle class, mostly white suburban dwellers who live in dire fear of their own shadow. So they go out and get the biggest, baddest gun they can legally get, only to have it ripped off when they're down at the NASCAR track, and thus condemn those in the inner city to living in an even more high powered shooting range. The AWB simply worked the law of supply and demand to the favor of those who were most in danger. Making such guns less available meant that less such guns came down to the inner city, so less people were shot. With the lifting of the ban, the guns are now cheap and plentiful, as is the lives of those in the inner city, at least as far as the gun nuts are concerned.

A little fact for you, the best gun for home defense isn't a pistol or assault weapon. It is the humble shotgun, either a pump or double barrel, twelve gauge. Even the NRA recommends this. So what, exactly is the justification for having such high powered weapontry? Or is it merely to stoke the egos of those most insecure?

[DoNotRefill]

36. And where, pray tell, are you going to find....

grenades to go in those "grenade launchers"?

BTW, would you care to explain how a post-ban AR-15 is less dangerous if stolen than a pre-ban AR-15?

[MadHound]

61. Same place you get those full autos that are also illegal

Steal them from the military. And don't try and tell me that military equipment doesn't get ripped off and make it's way to the black market, I know better. Thus, the supply of grenades is small, thus decreasing the likelihood that they're going to be used. However, that likelihood would decrease even further if the grenade launcher was also illegal, can't very well fire off that grenade if you don't have the means to do so.

And yes, an AR-15 is equally dangerous whether it is stolen or not. However, the likelihood of one being used decreases if said firearm isn't legally available. Less supply, less stolen firearms, less firearms shooting up the neighborhood. The simple, brutal law of supply and demand.

[DoNotRefill]

62. Ummm...

the grenade launchers in question are not the kind that will take US milspec 40mm grenades. We're talking about "rifle grenade" launchers...the kind you put on the muzzle of a rifle, and then fire with a blank cartridge.

The grenades that the US military uses are of two kinds. One are the regular hand-thrown type. The other are the kind that must be fired from a 40mm grenade launcher like the M-79 or M-203, which is regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and was not affected by the AW ban. Muzzle-fired rifle grenades have been out of the US inventory for decades.

Regarding AR-15s, I don't think you understand the distinction between a "pre-ban" and "post ban" gun. This is a pre-ban gun:



Manufacture of these were banned in 1994.

This is a post-ban gun:



The post-ban gun was legal to manufacture after the AW ban went into effect. As you can see, the only difference is that the post-ban gun does not have a bayonet lug or a flash supressor on it. Otherwise, it's identical. They both take the same capacity magazines (they are interchangeable), they both fire the same cartridge, they both have the same barrel length and overall length, and they both fire just as fast, one round fired for each pull of the trigger.

So how is a pre-ban rifle more deadly than a post-ban rifle?

(edited for typo)

[MadHound]

65. And I think you're missing my point

Being as that now that the AWB has been lifted, scared suburbanites are rushing out to buy assault weapons, for no good reason other than they are available. Shortly homes will be broken into and these fine new never used weapons will be in the hands of people shooting up my neighborhoold with them.

Again, the harder it is to get such lethal items, the harder it is to use them.

[DoNotRefill]

66. But before the ban was lifted....

they were able to legally buy "post ban" guns, which were indistinguishable from "assault weapons" in every way except for the bayonet lug and flash supressor.

So how is an AR-15 that is an "assault weapon" more lethal than a post-ban AR-15? Are you worried about random drive-by bayonetings?

[slackmaster]

67. Unintended consequences of banning things

When a ban is enacted, a bunch of people who wouldn't have bought the item to be banned will go out and buy them.

When a ban is lifted, all the people who wish they had bought one before the ban is enacted will go out and buy them.

That's normal human behavior. A lot of people will do things just because you tell them they can't do it.

IMO if the AWB had never been enacted there would be fewer military-looking semiautomatic firearms in circulation than there are today.

[slackmaster]

47. The only way you can get one is to become a machinegun dealer

Importation and manufacturing of new automatic firearms was stopped by federal legislation called the Firearm Owners Protection Act in 1986.

I know a man in Nevada who has one. I've fired it. He is in the business of selling automatic weapons to police departments. (It's a nasty job but someone has to do it, right?)

The G18 is very difficult to control. It's kind of fun pissing away ridiculous amounts of someone else's ammunition, but unless you are an expert with I don't see much practical use for it.

Anyhoo, if you are a machinegun dealer you can import one G18 or pretty much anything you want as a "post-1986 dealer sample", for the purpose of demonstrating it to prospective customers (who are limited to police, military, and the National Guard). If you ever go out of business, you'll have to get rid of it.

[CanuckAmok]

58. Hey....

I get to rock 'n' roll at work :D

In fact, I was at our set armourer's place a few weeks back, trying out his new SAWs and a modified Minigun for use in an upcoming feature film... you know you're going to have fun when a project budget includes $180,000 for ammunition!

[jukes]

60. i want THIS gun...

9mm, 30 round translucent polymer clips that interlock: cyclic rate of fire=an amazing 1100 rpm!

[slutticus]

69. Hold on Jukes...

...a 30 round clip....1100 rpm....that means you burn through one clip in 1.6 seconds!!!!

I guess that's why you need all those clips :P

[Rhiannon12866]

71. I beg to differ

If you want to pick off cats, you don't need an automatic weapon, but a single shot long rifle, with a good sights, that you can aim. You're likely to miss, with just scatter shot.:grr:

[jukes]

75. Rhi

you *know* i wdnt shoot a cat. i forgive you for the bait. & i know the difference between precision shooting, & kicking in a cheap motel room door & dropping all occupants to the floor w/ a room-clearing burst.

i served as a sniper on a swat team in DC for a short spell. weapon of choice=.243 winchester bolt-action w/ 8X aimpoint sight.

i was also a tunnel rat in viet nam. wdnt have used that same winchester for that activity.

i will not get ambushed into a silly debate on gun control, 'swhy i stay out of the gungeon.

these weapons DO have legitimate uses. they are also fun to shoot. the Famae has a 4 position selector, 1 for 3 rd bursts. i *know* i can put all 3 rds in a prehl silhouette @ 50 meters w/ this type weapon; have done it many times.

i'm considering going back on the job, & i fear hard times are in the near future; hence, i admire this weapon.

i *don't* believe that they shd be available for OTC purchase. but the real answer to the gang wars is decriminalization of drugs, not just selective approval of the most dangerous drugs. take away the profit motive, the gang wars will stop.

[Richglo]

64. I want one of those too

Just for the fun of it.

[Rhiannon12866]

73. No, you don't, I promise you

You need good training just to learn how to care for and shoot a single shot long rifle, which is what I am used to. The nuttiness of this just boggles the mind. Anyway, welcome to DU, Richglo. We're glad to have you with us. I hope that you get the chance to participate in some more elevated discussions here.:-)

[cleofus1]

74. this is my favorite

never needed anything more

winchester 30-30

[jukes]

76. kick

for the flame-bait factor, the lounge has been dull lately. won't get involved, though, just don't care either way. will be fun to sit back & watch the rancor, though...

[MissMillie]

77. I want THIS gun

http://www.backyardartillery.com/machinegun/