And while I am "Turning Japanese",

[necso]

I strongly recommend "The Seven Samurai", by Akira Kurosawa.

It is based on a Classic Japanese Tale (true), The 47 Ronin.

But it is much more an "American" kind of story, than, say "RAN", which is more to my taste -- and which might, therefore, depress you. ("The 47 Ronin" is also, perhaps, a somewhat depressing story, so don't google it if these things bother you.)

RAN, while a little dark, is a wonderful story about how different people interpret the meaning (and practise) of principle, in this case, loyalty. Good points on the spectrum are touched upon, from a crassly selfish interpretation to a most selfless one. The "hero" who takes a selfless view of the demands of loyalty, goes against the wishes of the object of his loyalty (his father) and thereby goes against the customs of the time in a way that would be hard to describe without referring to bushido. The hero, in his pursuit of principle, has elevated loyalty from its original object, his father and Lord (to the son there is no higher), to his father's best interests, as (better) understood by the son. But on some level, the hero has elevated the common practise of principle to a practise nearer to that which the principle itself demands -- to be actually expressed in "reality" -- and not just to be used as a word -- a word that becomes an epithet when used for selfish ends -- an epithet that embodies the corruption and debasement of a "virtue" into a "vice".

There is just too much beauty in this movie. And it is filled with little things that ring so true. The selfish son shows his selfishness in all his other actions -- but in a true to life twist, he is shown to be a weakling, and is dominated in an unbecoming way by an evil woman. And the roots here stretch deep, playing on themes that arise before and beyond Shakespeare, reach across cultures and have implications for every person of principle. -- When you can't rise to a higher principle, or attach your principle to a higher object, then rise to a higher practise of your principle -- for this is what principle itself demands -- to be practised on the highest possible level. And if you can handle the blackest of Shakespeare, then rent this Masterpeice by all means.

"Rashomon" is also a nice story of perspective, but much milder, and is a solid performance by one of the true Masters.

Oh, there is an American Cowboy Movie that basically steals Kurosawa's "Seven". It may not be unfamiliar to you. The original is much better though.

[DS1]

1. I like Kurosawa but for the yelling

:bounce:

[necso]

2. Zeal, friend, zeal.

....And they were men too.

[Joe Chi Minh]

3. Kurosawa

I agree with you about "The Seven Samurai" being better than the "Magnificent Seven", necso. And all the more plausible for the stars being kind of reefed in off the street. Well, they were not superstars or household names, though Kurosawa greatly favoured one of two of them in his films. The thin Samurai who sliced in two, the loudmouth braggart, who insistd on fighting him, was actually a very intraverted, bookish type in real life. But my favourite was the old warrant officer, ex master-sergeant type; a universal type seemingly found in every army, credited here as being the backbone of the British army.

"A fistful of dollars", (which I don't like anything like as much as "For a Few Dollars more"), is based, I believe, on another of Kurosawa's films, "Yojimbo". Another great movie.

There is a hilarious scene at the beginning of Throne of Blood, a film based, I believe on MacBeth, in which a warlord, played by a supremely open and spontaneous character, is given a horrifying (to him) lesson in cynical, devious, worldy strategy.

She is seated on the floor a few feet from him, and looks likes a caricature of submissiveness, looking down at the floor most of the time - even as she points out to him that his life is in danger, unless he kills his sovereign lord. A loyal, honourable man, he is appalled at each thing she says, and recoils in ever greater horror. Absolutely hilarious! Then, after a sortie in which he meets his boss, he crows to her, "See, he trusts me, and thinks so highly of me he's giving me the lead position in the attack!" To which she coyly murmurs, "Yes, and you will have arrows coming from the front of you, and arrows coming from the back of you...". A female Silvester and Dippity Dawg as a puppy! And he was the warlord general!

An unusual film for him, was a film called "Dursu Uzala", about a Russian surveyor commissioned to survey a large area of Siberia, and helped in this task by a little hunter from a native tribe called the Goldie. A marvellous film and quite sad in the way it ends, the cause of the tragedy was his inadvertent killing of one of those large Siberian tigers, which, according to his animist religion was a kind of God.

[necso]

4. I am always pleased to

meet a person of culture, refinement and subtlety.

Myself, I prefer the Ronin swordsman (the devotee of principle and principle alone), but sometimes one must take up the role thrust upon him.

It is, after all, the Way of the Warrior.

Peace, brother, peace.

Perhaps we will meet again. But the winds call... and they call of battle.

I plan on posting about the 47 Ronin at some time, perhaps it will be to your amusement.

[necso]

5. I feel obligated to point out

that this is a music thread... But I did open the door.

Yes, the scenes that you describe are most poignant.

But a man's refinements and sensitivities should never stand in the way of principle. -- And the Samurai principle is to triumph. -- To do less would be a dishonor -- in his own service or that of others.

I can understand the sorrow in killing a tiger, but then the tiger becomes a much greater thing -- the Tiger Spirit. Kurosawa must have seen this.

But again, off.

And oh, and there are always the treacherous in the "clan".

[necso]

17. Oh,

the Samurai equivalent of the master-sergeant would take a lot more heads -- on his own side.

But usually it is enough to yell "Bakayaro!"... and show them a little of the Shoto.

And, of course, what makes an army (navy, etc) work is the NCO's, Warrant Officers, and what have you. But what makes all these work together as a military is leadership -- leadership on lots of different levels.

And when it works, it can be something special.

[gmoney]

6. I highly recommend The Vapors "Turning Japanese"

"No sex, no drugs, no wine, no women, no fun, no sin, no you, no wonder it's dark..."

[necso]

9. "no wonder it's (so) dark."

(so) = editorial addition, for reading, not speaking.

"I'm turning Japanese, I think I'm turning Japanese, I really think so.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. Factual correction

Seven Samurai is a terrific movie, a Japanese movie that is accessible to people who know nothing about Japan.

HOWEVER, it is not based on 47 Ronin, which is an entirely different story about 47 samurai who go undercover to kill the man who purposely caused their master to be disgraced and ordered to commit suicide. After they accomplish their revenge, they gather together and commit mass suicide. (EWW!)

They are buried at Sengakuji Temple in Tokyo.

[necso]

11. "Based" is perhaps a poor choice of words.

Seven Samurai is a story of Ronin, and one might expect that the story of the 47 Ronin (a Classic Tale of the most famous Ronin, I believe, in Japanese history) might have influenced the late Master.

I stand corrected. -- But perhaps you could point to another (Kurosawa) treatment which better suits.

And I must admit that I have not seen all of his films.

Oh, and it's plural in this case.

[jackieforthedems]

8. Gosh

"Turning Japanese" - my son danced to that song in his recital last year! Lol.

[a kennedy]

10. and, oh my gosh, am I the only one that saw the SCTV

episode that had Rick Moranes(sp) singing "turning Japanese"??? Sorry, when I saw that phrase turning Japanese it reminded me of that.

[jackieforthedems]

12. Lol!

I never saw that one, but bet it was funny.

[Huckebein the Raven]

13. May I recommend IFC on Saturdays if you have it

because they show a Samurai movie every Sat at 8am et and repeat the movie later in the afternoon and I believe late at night as well. They show Kurosawa's films often as well as movies that Toshiro Mifune has starred in. Recently, they showed a film about the 47 Ronin which spanned 2 movies I believe. My favorite film is called Throne of Blood (forgive me if the name is incorrect) which is a Japanese Macbeth that was directed by Kurosawa (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. No, you're right on both counts

:-)

Throne of Blood (actually called Kumo no Su-jou "Spider Web Castle" in Japanese) is by Kurosawa and is based quite closely on Macbeth.

[necso]

14. Oh and if we take the leap

and view the 7 as vaguely based on the the 47, who is Oishi?

Now, this is not as straight forward as you might think.

I can think of three good candidates.

The third is pretty obvious when you think about it.

And perhaps he is all three men -- or even all 7.

[chenGOD]

15. Interesting fact about "Ran"...

It was funded by George Lucas, Francis Ford Coppola and Steven Spielberg. Kurosawa had trouble raising funds and was apparantly unpopular inside his own country.

And of course "Ran" reminds one of Shakespeare, it is after all, King Lear. I might also recommedn to you "Kagemusha" which was done 5 years prior to "Ran" and is of equal quality to "Ran".

And after all is said and done, let's not forget, Kurosawa is a genius of film.

[necso]

18. I do not

find it strange that Kurosawa would not adapt himself to Japanese popular tastes.

Certainly he could have. But why should he? Why should he do anything more than his art?

And, again, it is late.

[Flammable Materials]

19. Some say "Turning Japanese" is a euphemism for masturbation. n/t

But the band insists it represents alienation.

You choose.

:evilgrin:

[necso]

20. And I will add a third...

Really turning Japanese.

But I can live with a little ambiguity.

And it's even later.