The Puppy Training Thread

[Dookus]

I know a lot of people here have raised puppies. NSMA, Raven, Mrs. Grumpy, and tons of others.

I have my first puppy ever. I've had DOGS before, but never one I raised from a pup.

So I have a few questions.

My pup, Tucker, is really good about going potty outside. I got him at 12 weeks and he's only had a few accidents in the house since I got him two weeks ago. BUT... it's because I take him outside constantly. How do I train him to TELL me when he needs to go out?

Second, he (naturally) gets a little over-excited with puppy exuberance. When he does so, he nips at my hands and paws me, or crawls up on me. I consistently yell "No bite!" and "off" and push him off me, but I must've done it a thousand times already and he still pushes it. He's getting much better with the nipping (I also started shrieking loudly and feigning real hurt) but the pawing continues.

He's not trying to dominate. I've given him a few scruff-shakes and even an alpha-move or two, and he falls right in line. He averts my gaze when I stare at him in displeasure.

I think I made a big mistake by letting him up on the couch with me. That's when we get into trouble - he tries to crawl behind me on the couch, he tries to chew the pillows, he tries to paw me and nip me and if I ignore him, he barks and whines.

Is it possible now, after two weeks, to make the couch off-limits?

[skygazer]

1. Yes, it is

And it will make it clear that his behavior isn't being tolerated. Dogs are like kids in that it takes a lot of repitition for them to learn stuff. Also they are like kids because they test your limits, especially smart dogs (and Bulldogs are smart).

You've been consistently telling him "no" so when you remove him from the couch, I'd do it in conjunction with the bad behavior the first time. That way he'll associate the two. Dogs really do react to our pleasure and displeasure and as long as you're consistent he'll learn to look for your pleasure. They don't like to disappoint their people.

He's learning that he goes outside to do his thing. He'll figure out how to ask and you'll figure out how to understand what he's asking. I've never really trained them a signal, they just learned to associate the two things.

He's very cute, BTW.

:loveya:

[Dookus]

29. thanks skygazer...

he *IS* cute.

But have you really heard or learned that bulldogs are smart? My personal experience over the last two weeks confirms that, but nothing I read in the past would've predicted that. I read they were nice, affectionate, attached and stubborn. But my guy has learned a LOT in two weeks. I think he's smart as hell.

[roguevalley]

2. nothing is ever impossible, just harder. Your pup is focusing on you as

his friend and companion. A lot of what he is doing is just friendly play among peers. He's a munchkin, by the way. :evilgrin:

When he paws and climbs, turn around and put your hand on his chest and your hand on his heinie. Then press him into a sit. Say sit. Do it every time. He is going to get heavy and strong when he grows up, the little sweetie, and it will be up to you to set a few commands that you follow through on RUTHLESSLY.

I use "get-get-get" to make my five dachsies move in the same direction. I use "go potty" for pee-weeing. I take them out every few hours. You should take your boy out every hour or so young and every few hours when older. PRAISE his buns when he potties. PRAISE! PRAISE! PRAISE! everytime he does right. They thrive on it, crave it like heroin.

If you don't want him on the couch, he can NEVER be on the couch. You should decide if you want that or his sweet little butt beside you, grooving on the very air you breathe. That's the trade off. Never, or on your terms.

Park him next to you if you give him leave to join you and pat him. He just wants to be with you. That is his reason to live and breathe. You are the pack leader and his god. That is the key to his whole psyche.

He will tell you eventually when he has to go but if he's with you as a bud, it will be harder for him to know to do that. He will get it, especially when he's wandering around. Be sure if he is that you keep an eye on him and take him out when he looks like a pee-pee is coming. He will tell you.

My dog Andrew tells me by sitting and staring at me. Tippy and Timmy tell me that they have to go by standing at the door and yipping. Pippin comes in and rolls on the floor, flipping around and yipping. Robby just stands in the hallway until someone notices him. Each is different.

If he nips, hold his nose and use ONE word to tell him no: No. Say it firmly. He will learn. He wants to please you in every way. This breed is filled with fun and expect it to take a while but do it now.

I love your dog.

[Dookus]

5. thanks

I think I *DO* want him on the couch. I love the idea of a dog's head on my lap, and I love snuggling with him.

I've read a lot about puppy training, and the biggest objection I saw was letting them on the couch confuses their alpha-sense. But I don't think that's a problem with this guy. But he DOES nip, paw and bark if I don't pay him all the attention he wants, and I want to break him of that. He's only 14 weeks old, so I don't have great expectations that he'll be perfect but I want to make sure I'm doing the right things now for future behavior.

I have ALWAYS made him, from day one, SIT and ask to come up on the couch. He can't just crawl up. He needs my permission. Of course, he doesn't follow that rule, but I try to make him follow it consistently.

He also has a weird problem where if he's ON the couch with me, and I'm not paying attention to him, he starts barking. It's the ONLY time he barks. How do I address that?

[sffreeways]

18. The barking thing can be stopped a couple of ways

I've used a coffee can with a few pennies in it. They don't like loud noise. Don't shake it so hard it hurts the little boggers ears but a little shake and when she quiets down praise her immediately. She will associate the noise with the bark, negative and the quiet with the praise. Worked for me.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. sure, you can retrain him

I would also recommend an obedience class. We used to breed and raise collies when I was a kid and they were naturally very well behaved. However I took several dogs to obedience class (as did my parents and one sister) until we learned to train the dogs ourselves.
The most important thing is to be consistant just like with children.
You also have to use an angry voice when you tell him no, so the dog knows you mean business.

[Dookus]

6. Yeah

he is definitely going into class as soon as he's had his last Parvo shot. I know an awesome trainer, and I can't wait for him to join her class.

I am consistent, and I have perfected the mega-ultra-dramatic tone when dealing with him. My boyfriend thinks I'm nuts. When the dog nips, I shriek like a little girl and turn my back on him. When he disobeys me, I YELL in a basso profundo and near-terrify the dog (and my boyfriend).

[mopinko]

4. my pups have a doggie door bell

you can hang a bell on a rope from the doorknob. teach him to ring the bell- rub a little food- soft dog food or peanut butter- on the bell, tell him touch it or ring it, and tell him he is good when it makes a noise. then have him ring it before going out. pretty soon, he will put it together.

[Dookus]

7. Great idea...

I'll set that up this week. Thanks!

[vajraroshana]

8. are you enrolled in obedience class?

It's really helpful. And then consistent training.

It sounds like you're doing well. If you can't make it to obedience class there are some good books, "How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With" (Rutherford and Neil), and "What All Good Dogs Should Know -- The Sensible Way to Train" (Volhard and Bartlett) are both pretty good.

Chewing is of course normal for a puppy. Have lots of chew toys. Our golden still loves her sock-ball -- just put a tennis ball in an old sock and tie a knot. We heard horror stories about the golden's propensity for chewing and only had a couple of incidents -- she somehow managed to chew up a quarter-size hole in the linoleum in the dining room and also found a loose place in the wall paper and chewed off a bit! But overall nothing too bad because she has her toys and bones.

Asserting dominance is important and it sounds as if you're off to a good start. Even little things can help in that. Like when puppy is lying on the floor in your way, make him get up and out of your way, don't step around or over him, make him get up.

For potty training a feeding schedule works wonders and is better for the dog as well. Find out how much food the puppy needs (from your vet or someone well-acquainted with your breed; it's most important not to overfeed a puppy especially large-breeds; too rapid growth is not good for their bones) and feed them in the morning and then in the evening. Take him out immediately after he's finished. They adapt to this routine quickly and since feeding stimulates elimination they learn to poop on schedule. Water is different of course, they always need fresh water, but when fed on schedule they'll also pretty much pee on schedule as well.

I don't know about the couch situation, because I love snuggling on the couch with my golden.

Hope this was helpful. Good luck and have fun!

[Dookus]

9. Yeah

it'll be another 3 weeks until he's allowed to hang out with other dogs, but I will definitely enroll him in obedience classes. I know an awesome trainer who used to do doggie day-care for a dog I had years ago. She's amazingly good.

You're right, dominance is not an issue, as far as I can see. I make him sit before I go through a doorway, and he follows me. If he's in my way while walking, I kick him out of the way (not hard, of course, I just keep walking).

He just needs a lot of attention, which is his right as a puppy. But sometimes I don't WANT to or CAN'T pay attention to him and I don't want him nipping or pawing in those situations.

He does have a surfeit of toys, and when he gets edgy, I try to send him to his bed and offer him a toy or a rawhide chewy. Most of the time it works, but sometimes he just DEMANDS my full attention. Most of the time I'm happy to provide it, but occasionally, I want him to just lay off.

I have put him in his kennel at such times, but I feel bad. I read I shouldn't ever use the kennel as punishment. But, I've never had to force him into his kennel - I just say "go to your house" and he goes in happily. He cries for a minute or two, but he has a chew toy with him and quickly calms down.

I don't mean to complain at all - he's a really good pup, and is doing exceptionally well from what I can tell. I just worry about making some serious mistakes while he's so young.

[roguevalley]

10. bull dogs are the biggest attention freaks I've ever had. I love their

little rumpled butts. They make you feel like god. :)

One thing you can do is turn them onto their back, put your hand on their neck gently and say no in a firm voice. Of course, getting him on his back would be like turning over a volkswagen. :)

He will be losing his baby teeth and will need chewbies. He will always want attention and huggies. They're very, very strong companions. He looks at you for EVERYTHING he needs. Lucky you. :evilgrin:

I use my kennels for my boys when they fight. I found over the years that they view them as dens and find comfort. I think puppies can find comfort in them.

[Dookus]

11. heheh

if you could see him now, you'd plotz.

He's right next to me on the couch, snoring, with his paw up on my lap and his face smushed up against my leg. He's totally zonked. I'm petting him, and he makes the most amusing little sounds with each stroke.

If he was ALWAYS this good, I'd have no problem.

[vajraroshana]

15. sounds like you're doing everything right

we crate-trained when our golden was young -- I think that's the same as your kennel -- and that helped a lot too. You're right it should never be for punishment.

We had some good mentors, especially the breeder that we got our dog from. This is our first intentionally bred pet. Our other pets (all now passed away) were rescues.

Have fun.

[bratcatinok]

12. Try using what I did

I taught my pup to associate the word outside with going out to take care of business. I would consistently take him out after every meal, once an hour and everytime I caught him drinking water. If I caught him starting to squat I'd say in a loud tone of voice...No! Outside! and then I'd take him outside immediately.

Once we were outside I taught him what 'go potty' means. I did this by taking a begging strip with me in my pockey. Everytime he went potty, I'd praise him and give him a small bite of begging strip. Eventually he learned the words and didn't need the treat. Since I don't have a backyard fence, I also had to teach him to immediately mind me when I said inside. I did that by using a stern, warning voice and rewarding him with a bit of treat once we were inside. Even though I use a leash, I had to teach him to mind me immediately because we sometimes have strays and/or coyotes around.

Biting/nipping was one of the easiest things I taught him not to do. Whenever he'd start to bite, I'd grab his lower jaw with my thumb running inside just in back of his canine teeth. That way he couldn't bite me because his teeth couldn't reach me. I also used the phrase "no bite". I'd hold his jaw for several seconds. He'd go through a couple of cycles of struggling to get me to release his jaw by trying to use his tongue to push my thumb out. After the second cycle and when he's not struggling against you then you let go. You don't hold the lower jaw hard, just firmly where he can't get away. I would then pet and scratch him in the places he liked best.

Jumping on me was also easy. He'd jump, I'd grab his two front paws and hold them to where he was standing only on his backlegs. He'd struggle a couple of times but once he surrendered and quit struggling, I'd let his paws go and love on him. This also works when they start pawing you.

None of these hurt the puppy at all. They don't like them because it takes away their control but that's part of what you're trying to do anyway. You have to teach them you're top dog and what you say is what is what goes. You're the one in control.

I'm a small person and I'm disabled. I learned how to use these on my ex-dog who now weighs close to 120 lbs. I had to learn how to control the ex-dog. My ex-dog lives with my ex-husband but when he has to go overnight for chemo, my ex-dog comes to stay with us. She still minds me and still loves me even after 5 years of being an ex-dog. Since these tips were successful with my big ex-dog, when it came time to train my pup I used them and they worked for him too!

[Dookus]

21. thanks a lot, Brat...

that's good, practical advice. He's already really good with potty stuff - as long as I know his schedule, he never messes in the house. But I WANT him to tell me when he needs to go. I guess he's starting to learn that. I've seen him whine at me or hang out near the door when he needs to go. I suspect we'll have a system down in no time.


The jumping thing is a problem. I had some children come by today, and he was jumping on them, which is a big no-no. He was naturally excited, but he HAS to learn to be polite. I will try your paw-grab trick.

I think it's awesome that you have such a great relationship with an "ex-dog". They really ARE amazingly smart creatures and it speaks volumes about you that you are still treated so well by an "ex-dog".

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Clicker training is great

I am doing it with Cocoa....you click when he does a good thing then reward him with a treat...Cocoa was already grown and filled with bad habits when I got him, so not the same as a pup.

Seek out a trainer that knows clicker training...I had to do it the hard way. Also, retrievers like mine are all about approval so give him your approval when he does the good things and withdraw it rather than punish when he does the bad things.

Never use the dog's name when he does something bad...only say BAD...

Getting him to ask to go outside is tough so be on a schedule with him...I take Cocoa to the door and say, "Go potty." He walks outside, goes then comes back in.

Now, he's still a creep on a leash but he LOVES to do tricks because tricks get him GOOD attention.

He rolls over
does high five
low five
begs on hind legs and motions with his paws
and crawls (still getting the hang of that one)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

14. oh and on the biting thing

stick your hand down his throat when he does it...he'll stop

[Dookus]

17. heheh

I started doing that yesterday and already there's a marked improvement.

[sffreeways]

16. Positive reinforcement

works like magic. That's the best training technique anyone ever taught me. They want to please so badly.

Praise whenever the pup doesn't get on the couch when you say down or no. Make her sit then give a bunch of "good dog good dog" If she gets up again say a strong "no" then make her sit then praise her for sitting again. They understand this so easily. And I took my pup to the door and showed her to sit at the door then priased her like crazy. She figured it out pretty quikly. It's all about pleasing you.

When the pup bites the hand immediately get a toy and replace the playing with the hand with the toy then praise again. The more praise the better. Always worked for me. I love puppies !!

[Dookus]

19. luckily

all the training I've done so far has been using just positive praise. He's not terribly food-driven, so I train using praise and then reinforce with the occasional bit of hot dog. He really DOES want to please, which his great.

It's just overcoming his natural puppy exuberance that's hard, and I don't want to fuck up badly. I know he's still a babe and can't control himself fully, but I don't want him to hate me.

[sffreeways]

31. I worried about that too hating me

I don't like the grabbing the jaw technique. The hand can be confusing if you put it in their mouth for anything negative or positive. The SPCA gal told me that. She said it's best to replace then praise the replacement.

My dog used to jump on people. She's a chocolate lab and she's a big one. 100 pds is big for a female and she's not fat, no roles in the skin just a big dog so she is intimidating when she jumps up. Some people told me to put my knee up when she jumped but I don't like using agressive stuff to train and she never jumps on me anyway just new people. It's a domination behavior. I told her "no jumping" 10 million times. She got really tired of hearing "no jumping" and being made to sit after she did it then she stopped. Never does it now.

The sit thing can frustrate them into not doing things you don't like. And I would extend the sit command. I'd make her sit and stay for a good two minutes and keep pushing her butt down. Then when she would go up to the person again and not jump I would praise her. I also learned that they do that because they want to see your eyes so I started getting down on my knee when I greeted her. That worked too. It's funny I never thought about it but sure enough she just wanted to see my face. It made her really content when I got down to her level and she could look into my eyes.

My dog is too big for the couch so I don't have to worry about that and I didn't have a chew problem I was lucky. No crate either. I have a finished basement with nothing in it to rip apart and I always left plenty of toys. My dog has favorite things to do and I always made time to do those things with her. She was so focused on the favorite things and anticipating the walk or the ball throwing she lost interest in other behavoir.

She does have some weird stuff that can be troublesome. She's really habitual about certain things. She won't drink her water in the house. :eyes: it has to be the bowl on the deck so I have to let her out alot so she gets adequate water.

And I was mentioning in another dog thread that she doesn't like to walk on grass where there is other dog poop even her own so I pick up right away and hose the grass. She knows the old mean dog hating lady next door doesn't have a dog and her lawn is pristeen so she is determined to trot her butt over there and crap on her fresh grass. We have a strip of grass between our property that's about 5 or 6 feet wide and about 25 feet long. It's clearly my property but she is complaining about the dog peeing there. It's MY damn property !

I got a visit this sunday morning by the nasty neighbor who woke me up at 7 am to tell me she took a dump in her yard. She didn't because she doesn't get to go over there and do it I stop her before she gets there. But dog hater saw her trying so she is convinced she is the culprit. I had to go pick it up and it was cat poop. Made me so mad. I told her it wasn't Bailey and she said " I saw her" which was a flat out fabrication but she's 86 and I can't be rude or disrespectful but I wanted to be. So now everytime the neighbors big cat does her business over there I get a knock on the door. She has a bunch of big white bowls that she puts over the poop and when I see the bowl I know I'm getting a visit.

I have anxiety from this situation and I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I just know the next thing is a call from the landlord because she has her number and she's going to call and tell her my dog is running wild.

Well I'm sorry for highjacking your thread to vent for a minute but I had to get it off my chest. I've been stewing since yesterday.

One thing about owning a dog is how other people react to them. Good behavior is a must if you don't want your neighboors to hate you. But even if like me you are totally vigilant there are always dog haters out there that will want to make life miserable for you and your pooch just because they don't like dogs.

I can't understand what is wrong with people that don't like dogs so much they act the way my neighbor is acting.

Good luck with your puppy, she/he sounds like a real sweet gem of a pooch. You sound like you already really know what you're doing and are doing a great job. You also sound like a real dog lover and the kind of person that dogs love. So many people get dogs and don't understand them or take the time like you're doing. I love that breed too. Beautiful !!!


My dog makes me so happy I get so much love from her. I wish she would live forever or atleast outlive me.

[Dookus]

33. hey...

your neighbor is a nutcase. Don't fret about her.

I have also wished I would outlive my pets, but that's a selfish idea. My pets need me a lot more than I need them. I know how horribly painful it is to lose one, but my death will not ease their lives. We take on a certain responsibility when we bring them home, and we need to live up to it.

See your pets through their lives - it's only fair.

[roguevalley]

20. the jaw trick is great. works fast. the bell is terrific too. consistency

is the key here.

[Dookus]

22. here's a more technical question:

I always make him sit before I exit a doorway (before him, of course). But in the morning, when he REALLY has to go, should I require the same thing? I hear him cry, I get up, I leash him, while never saying a word (because I know if I talk to him or pet him he gets too excited), but is it reasonable to expect him to sit before going out the door when he hasn't peed in 7 hours?

[bratcatinok]

24. As young as he is right now, I'd say yeah

it's a little unreasonable. Remember, his bladder isn't grown up either. As they mature you can add time before you take him out.

Nowadays my pup waits until I've powdered my nose and started the coffee. Once the coffee's started I take him out. I didn't do that though when he was young because he'd already been so good at holding it all night. He was first priority then.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

23. Going through the same thing now too.

I really like the book by a bunch of Monks called "How to be your dog's best friend" It is by The Monks of New Skete.
http://www.newsketemonks.com/catalogue.htm

Great book.

[roguevalley]

25. I guess if you make him wait and he wee-wees in front of you, he might

feel ashamed. Dogs can. As he gets older, his bladder will stretch and he will last longer.

If you don't need food, good. Weight is a big issue with bulldogs.

Crating your baby at night helps them learn how to hold it. :)

I raised three of my boys from five weeks and can tell you stories.

[Dookus]

28. have you raised bulldogs?

I'm desperate to find people who know the breed well. I'm having so much fun, but I want to find out what I'm missing.

Edit: I guess you haven't... I misread your intent.

Yes, I crate my guy and he loves it. He goes right into his "house" any time I tell him to, and he loves it there. I think crate-training is indispensable. I can't imagine NOT using it.

[Dookus]

26. yeah

I read both the Monks of New Skete books when I last had a dog.

They had some great ideas, but I also believe their approach is great for a strong, intelligent, powerful breed like German Shepherds. Now... I believe the German Shepherd is the ultimate dog. I hope some day to have one, but I think it will take me decades of practice and training to be able to handle one well.

That being said, the Monks know what they're talking about, but I'm not sure it applies to some of the more sensitive/gentle breeds. But I have already done the "alpha move" on my boy and seen great results.

But I love the monks' approach for German Shepherds. To me there is no better icon of perfect doghood than a well-trained G.S.

[sffreeways]

32. What is

the alpha move ??? Never heard of it.

My dog is a female and she humps male dogs. It embarrasses them and me too. My vet told me she was an alpha female ?? I guess because she is so big.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. That is a great book!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

30. even on the hood of your car?

:evilgrin:

[allalone]

34. wow

you guys all seem like you are doing much better at this puppy thing than I. Pete is now 5 months old. he is still doing the hand nipping thing. driving me crazy. I've tried all the techniques, but no go. I stick a stuffed animal in his mouth when he does this. It does distract him.
I have been taking him to the off leash park so he can learn to be a real dog. aww he lifted his leg today. He must have seen another dog do it. It has made a big difference in him. He is very small and none of the regulars are. It's funny to watch him hanging around all these big dogs.
Um I guess I don't have any help for you, but all the other tips sound good.
dookus, did you ever get to see Pete's pic in that thread last week?

[Dookus]

35. no

I'd love to see Pete's pic. Can you post it?

[sandnsea]

36. Like kids, they do grow up

As long as you keep a good relationship and maintain your basic authority, you'll have a good dog in a couple of years. Keep that in mind, because a certain amount of this is just puppy stuff. I don't remember when my dog went to the door absolutely every time, but she did and yours will too. However, she still is determined to get attention when she wants it and will stick her head under your arm to make sure you pet her. She sleeps on the couch, with her head on a pillow, but doesn't chew anything anymore. She's Akita/Chow. Just make sure your pup has lots of chew toys and keep your very special things picked up for a while. Just like you would with a kid. It'll get better, hang in there!!

[VolcanoJen]

37. Dookus... check out "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic Channel.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer
http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/

Cesar Millan is one amazing dog trainer. The biggest mistake people make is viewing dogs as human children, when in fact they are dogs. It's best to get in tune with their pack mentality, and understand the way they view you as their leader, and their longing to understand their role in life, and what you must do to assert that. It really all comes together when you start thinking like a dog.

He's worked miracles with troublesome dogs, and yours is just a puppy who really isn't a problem at all. Dogs communicate with their mouths. They don't have hands, and they need to be taught that they can't reach you, command attention from you, or even play with you, using their mouths. It's the same way a pack leader, or mother of pups, teaches submissive dogs not to bite and nip. Firm, corrective touch first, followed by reward (affection) when the puppy stops nipping at you. You've got to be consistent, every single time he nips too hard for your liking, every time he crosses the line. Exude a relaxed confidence, always letting the puppy know you're the leader. Practice lots of firm corrective touch, and eye contact, the way his pack leader would. Your job is as exhausting and frustrating as that of the pack leader, and every bit as rewarding in the end. Voice training comes later, once the puppy learns his role in your life.

At any rate, The Puppy Year is challenging. It gets better, easier, and more rewarding.

Check out that show... it's entertaining, and amazing. On today's episode, Cesar saved a healthy, happy Boxer from certain euthanasia by showing his family that he is not an aggressive dog, but had not yet learned his role within his pack. It was a beautiful, uplifting thing to watch this dog's transition. :-)

[Dookus]

38. coincidentally...

a friend told me about that show yesterday. Tivo just recorded my first episode of it. I'll check it out.

I'm in awe of people who can just control dogs. The trainer I've used in the past is amazing. A rotten punk of a dog will act up in class, she'll take the leash, and BOOM! The dog falls into line. She has a German Shepherd that is the most amazing dog I've ever seen. She reacts to what a dog is THINKING, not what it's doing. Amazing.