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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:08 AM
Original message
WTF is the Patent office smoking?!?!?
I was looking at the EFF website, haven't been there in a while, and I saw the patent link, I was like, WTF? Look at this shit:

Original link: http://www.eff.org/

* One-click online shopping (U.S. Patent No. 5,960,411.)
* Online shopping carts (U.S. Patent No. 5,715,314.)
* The hyperlink (U.S. Patent No. 4,873,662.)
* Video streaming (U.S. Patent No. 5,132,992.)
* Internationalizing domain names (U.S. Patent No. 6,182,148.)
* Pop-up windows (U.S. Patent No. 6,389,458.)
* Targeted banner ads (U.S. Patent No. 6,026,368.)
* Paying with a credit card online (U.S. Patent No. 6,289,319.)
* Framed browsing; (U.S. Patent Nos. 5,933,841 & 6,442,574.) and
* Affiliate linking (U.S. Patent No. 6,029,141.)

OK, who the HELL is smoking crack that approved this shit. Think about, anyone with a blog, or webpage has violated one or more of these patents. That means that whoever "owns" these patents can get a stick up there butt and make a living suing you for patent infringement. And we thought Patenting DNA and living organisms is stupid.
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LudwigVan Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. THE HYPERLINK!?!?
Man, that guy has to be rich.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. That man is Tim Berners-Lee, I believe.
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 04:06 PM by Taxloss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_berners-lee

You'll notice how "no payment" is an enshrined concept.
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. You owe me $1.00
Internet forum listing of patents: (U.S. patent No.7,743,739)
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Shit, you want to see something(For Agent Mike)
check this out:



This is the source code to DeCSS, a descrambler that was intended for Linux to play DVDs. I just broke the DMCA right here, even though the source code is free. So did Wikipedia, and if you search the BBC website, you can get detailed instructions to find out how to crack DVD copyright protection. Oh, BTW agent Mike, come and arrest me, I dare ya! :evilgrin:
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. OK guys,he asked for it ! Let's get him !
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. WTF???! Who holds these patents? Is that a sly way to control
the internet?


----------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. You're in Europe, you don't have software Patents(yet)...
I believe that the EU is considering approving legislation that would allow software to be patented. Which can lead to the ridiculousness that you see now across the pond here. Here's a link:

http://swpat.ffii.org/index.en.html
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neweurope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Thank you very much :)


---------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. While some of the individual examples may seem extreme
(some of the innovations seem obvious to me, and you can't patent the obvious) why shouldn't software inventions be given the same protection as mechanical inventions?

Very smart people work very hard to invent ingenious ways of doing doing some things. What's wrong with them having the same kind of protection other inventors get?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think that Industry insiders and experts would dissagree with you...
some Statements, various sources.

Reback 2002: My Introduction To Patent Realities
Reback on IBM's predatory patent practises
Gary Reback, a famous american software lawyer, narrates from his memories

My own introduction to the realities of the patent system came in the 1980s, when my client, Sun Microsystems--then a small company--was accused by IBM of patent infringement. Threatening a massive lawsuit, IBM demanded a meeting to present its claims. Fourteen IBM lawyers and their assistants, all clad in the requisite dark blue suits, crowded into the largest conference room Sun had.

The chief blue suit orchestrated the presentation of the seven patents IBM claimed were infringed, the most prominent of which was IBM's notorious "fat lines" patent: To turn a thin line on a computer screen into a broad line, you go up and down an equal distance from the ends of the thin line and then connect the four points. You probably learned this technique for turning a line into a rectangle in seventh-grade geometry, and, doubtless, you believe it was devised by Euclid or some such 3,000-year-old thinker. Not according to the examiners of the USPTO, who awarded IBM a patent on the process.

After IBM's presentation, our turn came. As the Big Blue crew looked on (without a flicker of emotion), my colleagues--all of whom had both engineering and law degrees--took to the whiteboard with markers, methodically illustrating, dissecting, and demolishing IBM's claims. We used phrases like: "You must be kidding," and "You ought to be ashamed." But the IBM team showed no emotion, save outright indifference. Confidently, we proclaimed our conclusion: Only one of the seven IBM patents would be deemed valid by a court, and no rational court would find that Sun's technology infringed even that one.

An awkward silence ensued. The blue suits did not even confer among themselves. They just sat there, stonelike. Finally, the chief suit responded. "OK," he said, "maybe you don't infringe these seven patents. But we have 10,000 U.S. patents. Do you really want us to go back to Armonk and find seven patents you do infringe? Or do you want to make this easy and just pay us $20 million?" After a modest bit of negotiation, Sun cut IBM a check, and the blue suits went to the next company on their hit list.

In corporate America, this type of shakedown is repeated weekly. The patent as stimulant to invention has long since given way to the patent as blunt instrument for establishing an innovation stranglehold.


Richard Stallman 1994
Richard Stallman's Testimony to the USPTO Hearings 1994
Richard Stallman, founder of the GNU project and speaker of the League for Programming Freedom explains in easy-to-understand terms to a hearing at the US Patent Office in 1994 why the extension of the patent system to software / algorithms is harmful to all software development, no matter whether free or proprietary, and why copyright provides a fairly adequate framework for both. This speech is very clear in explaining some of the basic issues that often cause confusion.

Software is like other fields of engineering in many ways. But there is a fundamental difference: computer programs are built out of ideal mathematical objects. A program always does exactly what it says. You can build a castle in the air supported by a line of zero thickness, and it will stay up.

Physical machinery isn't so predictable, because physical objects are quirky. If a program says to count the numbers from one to a thousand, it will do exactly that. If you build the counter out of machinery, a belt might slip and count the number 58 twice, or a truck might go by outside and you'll skip 572. These problems make designing reliable physical machinery very hard.

When we programmers put a while statement inside an if statement, we don't have to worry about whether the while statement will run such a long time that it will burn out the if statement, or that it will rub against the if statement and wear it out. We don't have to worry that it will vibrate at the wrong speed and the if statement will resonate and crack. We don't have to worry about physical replacement of the broken if statement. We don't have to worry about whether the if statement can deliver enough current to the while statement without a voltage drop. There are many problems of hardware design that we don't have to worry about.

The result is that software is far easier to design, per component, than hardware. This is why designers today use software rather than hardware wherever they can. This is also why teams of a few people often develop computer programs of tremendous complexity.

People naively say to me, "If your program is innovative, then won't you get the patent?" This question assumes that one product goes with one patent.

In some fields, such as pharmaceuticals, patents often work that way. Software is at the opposite extreme: a typical patent covers many dissimilar programs and even an innovative program is likely to infringe many patents.

That's because a substantial program must combine a large number of different techniques, and implement many features. Even if a few are new inventions, that still leaves plenty that are not. Each technique or feature less than two decades old is likely to be patented already by someone else. Whether it is actually patented is a matter of luck.

<...>

I've explained how patents impede progress. Do they also encourage it?

Patents may encourage a few people to look for new ideas to patent. This isn't a big help because we had plenty of innovation without patents. (Look at the journals and advertisements of 1980 and you'll see.) New ideas are not the limiting factor for progress in our field. The hard job in software is developing large systems.

People developing systems have new ideas from time to time. Naturally they use these ideas. Before patents, they published the ideas too, for kudos. As long as we have a lot of software development, we will have a steady flow of new published ideas.

The patent system impedes development. It makes us ask, for each design decision, "Will we get sued?" And the answer is a matter of luck. This leads to more expensive development and less of it.

With less development, programmers will have fewer ideas along the way. Patents can actually reduce the number of patentable ideas that are published.

<...>

A decade ago, the field of software functioned without patents. Without patents, it produced innovations such as windows, virtual reality, spreadsheets, and networks. And because of the absence of patents, programmers could develop software using these innovations.

We did not ask for the change that was imposed on us. There is no doubt that software patents tie us in knots. If there's no clear and vital public need to tie us up in bureaucracy, untie us and let us get back to work!


Robert Barr (CISCO) 2002
Statement of Robert Barr, IPR department of CISCO
Complains that the patenting consumes ressources of CISCO and innovative companies in software-related fields without promoting innovation, and in fact penalises innovators, asks for restriction of patentability to fields where it can be shown that patents benefit society.

My observation is that patents have not been a positive force in stimulating innovation at Cisco. Competition has been the motivator; bringing new products to market in a timely manner is critical. Everything we have done to create new products would have been done even if we could not obtain patents on the innovations and inventions contained in these products. I know this because no one has ever asked me "can we patent this?" before deciding whether to invest time and resources into product development.

<...>

The time and money we spend on patent filings, prosecution, and maintenance, litigation and licensing could be better spent on product development and research leading to more innovation. But we are filing hundreds of patents each year for reasons unrelated to promoting or protecting innovation.

<...>

Moreover, stockpiling patents does not really solve the problem of unintentional patent infringement through independent development. If we are accused of infringement by a patent holder who does not make and sell products, or who sells in much smaller volume than we do, our patents do not have sufficient value to the other party to deter a lawsuit or reduce the amount of money demanded by the other company. Thus, rather than rewarding innovation, the patent system penalizes innovative companies who successfully bring new products to the marketplace and it subsidizes or rewards those who fail to do so.


Douglas Brotz (Adobe) 1994
Adobe gainst Software Patents
At the USPTO hearings of 1994, Adobe's representative said:

Let me make my position on the patentability of software clear. I believe that software per se should not be allowed patent protection. I take this position as the creator of software and as the beneficiary of the rewards that innovative software can bring in the marketplace. I do not take this position because I or my company are eager to steal the ideas of others in our industry. Adobe has built its business by creating new markets with new software. We take this position because it is the best policy for maintaining a healthy software industry, where innovation can prosper.

<...>

For example, when we at Adobe founded a company on the concept of software to revolutionize the world of printing, we believed that there was no possibility of patenting our work. That belief did not stop us from creating that software, nor did it deter the savvy venture capitalists who helped us with the early investment. We have done very well despite our having no patents on our original work.

On the other hand, the emergence in recent years of patents on software has hurt Adobe and the industry. A "patent litigation tax" is one impediment to our financial health that our industry can ill-afford. Resources that could have been used to further innovation have been diverted to the patent problem. Engineers and scientists such as myself who could have been creating new software instead are working on analyzing patents, applying for patents and preparing defenses. Revenues are being sunk into legal costs instead of into research and development. It is clear to me that the Constitutional mandate to promote progress in the useful arts is not served by the issuance of patents on software.


Oracle 1994
Oracle against Software Patents
From Oracle's statement submitted to the hearings on software patentability at the US Patent Office in 1994

Oracle Corporation opposes the patentability of software. The Company believes that existing copyright law and available trade secret protections, as opposed to patent law, are better suited to protecting computer software developments.

Patent law provides to inventors an exclusive right to new technology in return for publication of the technology. This is not appropriate for industries such as software development in which innovations occur rapidly, can be made without a substantial capital investment, and tend to be creative combinations of previously-known techniques.

<...>

Unfortunately, as a defensive strategy, Oracle has been forced to protect itself by selectively applying for patents which will present the best opportunities for cross-licensing between Oracle and other companies who may allege patent infringement.


OK, so even software industry leaders are against the idea, it is usually a few (IBM, MICROSOFT) that are for this idea. The problem is that comparing software to hardware is erronious and inaccurate. For one, its already protected under copywrite laws, if you choose it to be. Second, patents apply to derivative works, and ALL software made in the past 20 years are derivative works. From the Cursor idea to icons, if they were patented, we wouldn't have a usable GUI at all, if ever. What point is there for anyone to innovate if they have to first check and see if there own user interface isn't already patented? What would have happened if the HTML was patented in the beginning, plus any idea along with it, it would have killed the internet, and we would either be talking over a huge world-wide BBS right now, or not talking at all.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I don't think there's much of a consensus
among "industry leaders" that patents are bad. I've worked in the business for 20 years, and I haven't heard that view expressed.

I *HAVE* heard complaints about bad patents being given for the obvious and/or inventions with prior art, but not for the general idea of software patents.

But my question was why should software inventions be given less protection than mechanical inventions?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Probably because they can already be protected by copywrite...
You already heard about the bad patents, do you honestly think the patents above are legitimate?
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I already said no.
Some seem obvious to me.

But copyright protects the EXPRESSION of an idea, not the idea itself. If somebody creates an algorithm for doing something new and important, somebody else can simply re-write the code differently, but using the same algorithm, and not violate copyright.

I'm well-aware of the abuses that go on in the business. One company I worked for was the subject of a 7+ year lawsuit from xerox regarding a patent. Xerox eventually lost. They never should've been allowed to bring the suit in the first place, though.

The problem seems to be that the US Patent Office is woefully unprepared to evaluate and judge software patents - they just don't seem to have the expertise. That needs to change.

But for the third time, I'm asking for a reason why software inventions should receive less protection than mechanical inventions. Let's not get bogged down in individual bad cases. Tell me why, as a matter of principle, this should be.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. To put it bluntly...
Software is not a physical invention, you mentioned an Algorithm that could be used in software. As said above, do you really have to worry about that algorith breaking from use? Do you have to worry about worn out parts in the code, or an loop breaking? Software is not inventions, period, and no they don't deserve that protection, no more than a book, or a newspaper article would.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I"m not sure why
the possibility of breakage enters into it. I don't see the connection.

So once upon a time, somebody invented the modem. It was a physical machine that encoded and decoded signals to send over phone lines. I presume the inventor got a patent.

Years later, the same exact function can be done in software.

Why should the first one be protectable, but not the second? They do exactly the same thing. Patents aren't awarded based on breakability or durability. They're based on whether it's a worthy invention.

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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. One is a machine unto itself...
Whereas the other relies on another machine to do the actual work. You are talking about Winmodems, i.e. pieces of shit, but anyway, programs have to run on computers of some sort, it doesn't matter what platform, but hardware NOT of your making, enters into it. That is a pretty big difference.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well....
I can think of other patents that require something else to run. A famous case was just settled recently and the inventor of intermittent windshield wipers received a huge settlement.

Now of course, intermittent windshield wipers require a windshield, and a car frame, and an engine, and a battery to run, none of which are involved in the patent. So the idea that a patent can only be for stand-alone mechanical objects doesn't seem to apply to actual patent law.

I think your objection is simply "one is tangible" and "the other isn't". I'm fully aware of that distinction. But I've been privileged to work with some really great inventors - but many of their inventions are done in software. I've also always worked for small start up companies, and protecting their inventions was always very important to the company's potential success.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. To get back to your example about the modems...
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 06:27 AM by Solon
Basically comparing a Winmodem to a hardware modem. Its an excellent example of how software patents may be a bad idea. Here's the example, I have a computer that has a Winmodem I bought and paid for, now I decide to switch to a different operating system, let's say Linux. I look at the manufacturer's website, find no driver, no suprise, it was marketed as a Winmodem. So I decide to write my own driver for it, simulating many of the things that the windows driver has to do. So I write a driver that works, holy cow, I just violated patent law. So I decide to distribute free on the Internet, and therefore potentially increasing the user base for this company, and low and behold, I get sued! Now, under copywrite law, sans DMCA, it is considered fair use, what I did, but under patent law I could lose my life savings, or the shirt off my back, for what I did.

ON EDIT: My program would be considered a derivative work, not fair use, my bad.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Bill Gates on this...
Bill Gates 1991: Patents exclude competitors, lead industry to standstill
Lessig 2002-07-24: Keynote to OSCON
This was quoted by Fred Warshofsky in "The Patent Wars" of 1994. The text is from an internal memo written by Bill Gates to his staff. Part of has appeared in another Gates memos.

If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today. ... The solution is patenting as much as we can. A future startup with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high. Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. This will give some information as to why software differs from inventions
Jim Warren (Autodesk) 1994
Autodesk Testimony against Software Patents
Autodesk is a world-leader, some say a monopolist, in CAD software. Warren became known as a software and business pioneer, founding editor of the legendary "Dr. Dobb's Journal" and board member of Autodesk. In a insightful and passionate testimony at the USPTO hearing in 1994, Warren explains first why algorithms are different from material phenomena and why the attempt to monopolise them breaks fundamental constitutional values.

Although all that I "invented" were innovative, all utilized complex procedures and all were valued by those who paid millions to use what my innovative entrepreneurial risk created, it never occurred to me to patent them, and I could not have patented those "useful arts" if I had wanted to.

The fundamental question is: Do we want to permit the monopoly possession of everything that works like logical intellectual processes. I hope not.

The mind has always been sacrosanct. The claim that intellectual processes and logical procedures (that do not primarily manipulate devices) can be possessed and monopolized extends greed and avarice much too far. Algorithmic intellectual processes must remain unpatentable -- even when represented by binary coding in a computer; even when executed by the successor to the calculator.

<...>

What frightens and infuriates so many of us about software patents is that they seek to monopolize our intellectual processes when their representation and performance is aided by a machine.

<...>

Everything that is represented or performed by software is first a completely-detailed algorithmic intellectual process. There are no exceptions, other than by error.

Thus, I respectfully object to the title for these hearings -- "Software-Related Inventions" -- since you are not primarily concerned with gadgets that are controlled by software. The title illustrates an inappropriate and seriously-misleading bias. In fact, in more than a quarter-century as a computer professional and observer and writer in this industry, I don't recall ever hearing or reading such a phrase -- except in the context of legalistic claims for monopoly, where the claimants were trying to twist the tradition of patenting devices in order to monopolize the execution of intellectual processes.

<...>

There is absolutely no evidence, whatsoever -- not a single iota -- that software patents have promoted or will promote progress.

<...>

The company for which I am speaking, Autodesk, holds some number of software patents and has applied for others -- which, of course, remain secret under current U.S. law. However, all are defensive -- an infuriating waste of our technical talent and financial resources, made necessary only by the lawyer's invention of software patents.

Autodesk has faced at least 17 baseless patent claims made against it and has spent over a million dollars defending itself, with millions more certain to pour down the bottomless patent pit unless we halt this debacle. Fortunately -- unlike smaller software producers -- we have the financial and technical resources to rebuff such claims. We rebutted all but one of the claims, even before the patent-holders could file frivolous law-suits, and will litigate the remaining claim to conclusion. Note that your Office has issued at least 16 patents that we have successfully rebutted, and we never paid a penny in these attempted extortions that your Office assisted.

But it was an enormous waste of resources that could have better been invested in useful innovation. These unending baseless claims benefit patent lawyers, but they certainly do not promote progress.

<...>

We offer two recommendations, the second having twelve parts -- so to speak, the 12 Apostles of Redress:

FIRST: Issue a finding that software, as I have defined it, implements intellectual processes that have no physical incarnation; processes that are exclusively analytical, intellectual, logical and algorithmic in nature. Use this finding plus the clearly-stated Constitutional intent, to declare that the Patent Office acted in error when it granted software patents. Declare that software patents monopolize intellectual and algorithmic processes, and also fail to fulfill the Constitutional mandate to promote progress -- that in fact, they clearly threaten it.

<...>

SECOND: Until -- and only until -- software patents are definitively prohibited, reject or at least freeze all such applications that have not yet been granted, pending conclusive action on all of the following twelve recommendations:

REDRESS SERIOUS ERRORS OF PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS: Issue a finding that there have been extensive and serious errors of judgment in a large percentage of software patents granted in the past, and immediately recall all software patents for re-review and possible revocation.

<...>

Let us stand on each others' shoulders, rather than on each others' toes.
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jeff30997 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
10. I just got a patent for the word shit.
I'm gonna make a bundle with that one !
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
15. There is a big court fight over one of those patents.
I am too tired to look it up. It's a company from San Diego. They are suing a bunch of small companies. Eventually they will have the resources to challenge Amazon.
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Sgent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. With all that is being said...
I would actually believe that a hyperlink might be the only patent up their I agree with (note the concept).

There is no question that hyperlinks, when first described, were a very unusual and unique, non-obvious way of working with computer data (where they were first used). I believe the book about hyperlinks first came out in the 70's though, so I think it would be expired regardless.
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
23. I am a patent attorney!
In July 1998, the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit affirmed the patentability of business method-related software in State Street Bank & Trust Co. v. Signature Financial Group. This decision opened the floodgates for all those software patents.

Mathematical algorithms are considered abstract ideas and are not statutory patent matter. BUT, the loophole is that the court decided that software can be interpreted as a series of steps performed by a machine, i.e. a computer. If a program is computer-implemented, it can be said be machine-implemented, and that is that rationale for patenting software. They fall into the category of "method" patents, which is just a method of doing something using some type of apparatus.

(This is the kind of crap I have to write every day at work, can't believe I'm typing this on DU.)
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. That's really cool. Thanks!
Are people really still coming up with unique ideas? I don't get how you can invent stuff anymore. Is combining a bunch of knowns to create something unknown/new patentable?
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Oh believe me, people are still inventing things. . .
Hi! :)

It's relatively easy to get a patent. But, the patent might be worthless. The patent protection you wind up with might be what we call "narrow" which means it doesn't cover the broad concept of your invention. For example, say you want to patent your gizmo. But the patent office says only the little doohickie on your gizmo is patentable, so that's all the coverage you get. Only the doohickie on the gizmo is patented, so your competitors can produce the gizmo without the doohickie and get around your patent.

You can also get a patent on an improvement for an existing device. Like you didn't invent the cell phone, but if you invent an improvement for the cell phone, you can patent the improvement.

As far as combining elements goes, that is exactly what the patent office will reject you for. They basically say, "well that is just an obvious combination of A and B which are already patented" and reject your patent claims. So THEN, what we have do is argue back that "no, it wouldn't be obvious to combine A and B because... (blah blah blah)" and hope they see our point and withdraw the rejection.

To me, it seems like EVERYONE has an invention they think will make them rich someday. But as long as people keep coming up with these ideas, I will have a JOB. ;)

Sorry if this is boring! My work is boring to me too.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. It's not boring.
This is great. Thanks!
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 11:38 PM
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28. i hold patents and you have to understand how the patent office operates
examiners are rated on how many patents they review and accept per day. usually 8 per day is the mark they try to hit.
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