is it okay to have an open discussion of THE cia...*spoilers*

[wildhorses]

is agent mike watching?

has anyone seen the good shepherd?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0343737/

A gray winter day was a fitting time to see one of the first public screenings of a film called "The Good Shepherd," whose chilly hero Edward Wilson (Matt Damon, in a role modeled in part on CIA founder, James Jesus Angleton) is not so much all things to all men as nobody to anybody. A composite figure in a portrait of the birth, rise, and moral shriveling of the American CIA, Matt Damon's disturbingly shut-down Wilson would be one of recent film's most tragic figures if he were not such a hollow, unappealing man. Directing a long-contemplated project using a screenplay by Eric Roth (who penned "Munich"), Robert De Niro has forged a "Godfather" of Yankee spy-craft, a heavy, solemn epic about betrayal and loyalty in the world of espionage and counter-espionage dominated not by Italians as in the original "Godfather," though Coppola produced, De Niro directed, and Joe Pesci has one of the liveliest on screen moments, but by uptight, stony, patrician WASPs.

Indeed as seen here the world of American intelligence is a privileged and exclusive and deeply conflicted one where Irish, blacks, and Italians need not apply; fathers are absent; privilege grows out of Skull and Bones at Yale, wives are betrayed; sons labor desperately to measure up, and the leading practitioners are ridden with guilt and suspicion. There is no one to trust and nothing to believe in – not family or tradition, or even music – only America, which Edward Wilson says belongs to his class. All others are just visiting.

Into this demoralizing story, damning in its picture of the world of white privilege and of intelligence itself but nonetheless intricately involving and at times genuinely disturbing, are woven some of the major incidents and personalities of the period from from before the Second World War – after which OSS morphed into CIA— till after the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion under JFK, from hot war to cold war. You have Philbys and fake Russian turncoats, CIA execs siphoning off money to Switzerland in guise of chocolate boxes, and through it all you have a Cuba mole investigation that smashes Wilson's own family.

Wilson's true penchant was for a deaf girl named Laura (an excellent Tammy Blanchard); and with her is the only time Damon seems to develop human warmth. He is forced to marry the more elevated Margaret Russell (an uncomfortable Angelina Jolie) sister of one of his Skull and Bones colleagues who remains Wilson's Old Boy link to privilege ever after. Traumatic embarrassment, revelation of closest held secrets, and doubt of loyalty are seen as inborn elements of the espionage world. The very qualities that make a good spy, as seen here, also make a man untrustworthy.


i saw it yesterday....


robert de niro...what a year that man has had!!!

timothy hutton's role i think ended up on the cutting room floor...

[zonkers]

1. I was wondering about that Timothy Hutton role being so small. My

2nd viewing allowed me to pay more attention to the Ulysses(Russian Spymaster)/Wilson story, the disintergrating family" story and the Allen/William Hurt story, though that one sort of confused me, still. Small details and objects were real interesting the 2nd time, the ship in a bottle sort of connected with the globe ball souveneir the russian spy bought at the end. I realized that the Russian spy with the hearing aid was no doubt planted because Ulysses knew that Wilson's previous girlfriend was deaf. It was also fun to look for "tells" regarding the Russian Colonel, Archie(Cruddop) and the Gay English teacher. Overall, a super dense, super rich film. DeNiro is a master.

[wildhorses]

2. thanks for clearing up some stuff...

i would love to see it again...



i think about the only place i would have cut was after the santa scene...


i don't think all the clean up was necessary for us to understand how messed up that poor kid's life was...


also...when angelina left in the boat...

did they send her some place to dry out?

[zonkers]

3. Hmmm...

I guess I can see why they would they stick that clean-up scene in -- to demonstrate that Edward Sr. was a warm father... which made Ed Jr.s desire to please him more plausible.

As far as Angenia goes, I dont know where she went on that boat. Her role really reminded me of Sharon Stone's character in Casino.

I thought it was a mistake for DeNiro and Pesci to be in the movie -- it sort of sucks me right out of the movie when I saw them -- its like "hey, there's DeNiro and Pesci!" I liked the English teacher character. And those smarmy Skull & Bones boys... And Matt Damon as Buttercup on stage was classic.

I think its a much better film than Godfather, not as corny and over the top. I think Coppola who executive prodeuced this is a much better producer than director.

[wildhorses]

4. yes, since you put it that way...

it was the only time shown in that boy's life where his father actually appeared to be a warm and responsive human being.


angelina's role arced from that of spoiled debutante to lonely surburban housewife who knew just enough to make one wonder "is it worth it?"...the comparison to the casino role of stone's is valid.

my mother had the same reaction first time de niro appeared on screen and we both had the same reaction when pesci appeared on screen.

the english professor and the billy crudup character, also the hurt character and the joe turturro character... EXCELLENT (imho) and WHY i would like to see the movie again.

the ship in the bottle analogy was superb!

yes, a MUCH better film than Godfather (again, my opinion)

wonderfully paced, the tension is relentless. de niro and coppola :thumbsup:

[zonkers]

5. Yes, how could I forget Turturo?! He just nailed his role. Every twitch was dead on...

and when he got physical with that defector -- whoa. The film had just enough violence. Those screams of the english professor gave me goosebumps.

Funny you saw it with your mom... I saw it with my mom too. We were so happy we had a "real" and meaty movie to sink our teeth into.

I hope DeNiro spends more time directing than starring in comedies.
Nice sharing thoughts on this film with you... rarely do I have so much to say about a film.

Makes you fall in love with films all over again!

[wildhorses]

6. yes, i think de niro has found a new calling

and with the english professor scene ...sometimes it is what is NOT shown and knowing how to NOT show something...again thumbsup to de niro!!

it is tradition with my mother that we see a movie on christmas afternoon...

thanks for your comments and your insights :hug:


edited for typos