what's the deal with confederate flags outside of the South

[pstokely]

I seem them often in the Kansas City area, Missouri was a boarder state but Kansas wasn't even a state during the Civil War, I saw one near River Falls, Wis once

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. People move and take their things with them.

:shrug:

[trof]

20. The most sane answer I've seen on this thread.

Let's go someplace else.
:-)

[Lars39]

2. This map from Southern Poverty Law Center might have the answer:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

[Snow]

58. Whoa, nice-looking map. But they really don't understand denominators,

do they? There's a lot less hate per person here in LA than in Omaha, but look at the map.

[wysimdnwyg]

3. You don't have to be from the South...

to be a racist POS.

[Maddy McCall]

4. Thank you for saying that.

[INTELBYTES]

5. Confederate flag has nothing to do with being racist.

It was a symbol of the Southern States, before the war of Northern aggression. It's an insult to be lumped into the catagory of a racist if you still respect your heritage.

[Democrats unite]

7. As a Southerner & a Gay person

I totally disagree with you.

[INTELBYTES]

9. What does being gay have to do with it?

So what if there are asshole racist that have it on their pickup trucks? The flag was not a symbol of racism. What if the stupid ass rednecks started putting pink triangles on their trucks. Would you start calling all pink triangles a racist sign?

[Democrats unite]

12. I have lived in the South my whole life...

Nothing you say is going to change my mind. I know hate & bigotry when I'm beat over the head with it & I know Damn well what the confederate flag stands for!

[Intelsucks]

46. How dare you talk about Bo and Luke Duke that way!

:evilgrin:

[baldguy]

44. Either you're an American, or you're not.

Pick One

[INTELBYTES]

55. They're both beautiful to me!!

[pstokely]

57. what meaning does a rebel flag have in Kansas or Wisconsin?

?

[Democrats unite]

6. Amen!

eom

[trof]

8. Oh my.

We ain't had us one uh these here thangs in a WHILE.
Fergit HELL!
:evilgrin:

[Lars39]

18. yep.

Where's all the new 700 Club members? They could really rack up some posts. :)

[junker]

10. They are symbols of hate for all of us who lived through the Jim Crow year

They are symbols of hate for all of us who lived through the Jim Crow years. White robed marchers carried them both in the daylight when they asserted their 'authority' by strollin' down the roads, and they carried them under dark night skies when people and by that I mean mostly black people were murdered for their beliefs. Those horrid, evil beliefs that were so powerful that only Death could serve as dike again the rising tide. Beliefs that must be crushed out, bled out, burnt out for men claiming decency to be able to stomach their miserable existance as murderers. These beliefs, of course, begin, We the People, and continue through the Bill of Rights. But then, in the late 50s and early 60s, deep in the heart of G'ogia and 'Bama it weren't allowed that uppity blacks, their preachers, nor them 'orthern liberals could be talkin' 'bout such open heresy as 'one man/woman, one vote'.

I worked the literacy clubs back then as one of the Jim Crow laws said that to vote, a black man or woman had to pass a literacy test. In front of a large crowd, they had to prove their abilities at such things as read'n.

In all those days, in all those many ways, subtle and overt, there was that damn old flag. What fills my eyes, deep in my own dark night of the soul, seeing the faces of friends long dead, is the red in that flag, crossed over its heart. Blood on the land, blood on many hands, and there, always that damn flag.

So black nor white don't matter spit like my old pappy from Walkers' Hollow MO used to say, its how your blood stands in times of troubles that tells your tale. Does your blood boil, hard to the temple, blazing with fury and might?
Or does it freeze cold in the veins and run like a G. W. Bush from a fight?

Can't stomach that flag. With good reason I figure, though I acknowledge that some ignorant fools call it their 'heritage' without knowing nor caring about history.

[INTELBYTES]

13. So one person flew the flag for his orginazation and you condemn a whole..

...population of people?

What about this?

If the American Flag were to face the same standards that the Confederate Battle Flag does, it too would have to come under attack. How do you feel American Indians feel about the flag that nealy wiped out their Culture and People? Or how about black veterans of WW 2 who had to ride in the back of trains while Nazi POW's rode in the front of the train? Remember this was done under the American Flag not the Confederate Battle Flag. How about the Jim Crow laws that existed under the American Flag? Or how about all the hate groups that use the American Flag as their symbol? Lets also not forget that the American Flag flew over slavery from 1776 to 1865 here in America. Should we ban the American Flag? Of course not, that would be dumb, just like banning the Confederate Battle Flag.

[Whitacre D_WI]

14. 1) One almost never sees the flag...

of the Confederate States of America. What people fly is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

2) The Confederacy seceeded in order to perpetuate the heritage of OWNING HUMAN BEINGS AS PROPERTY. Period. While it is true that slavery was not considered to be the primary cause of war IN THE NORTH, until the Emancipation Proclamation; slavery was ALWAYS the driving purpose behind the Confederacy: note the words of Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA:

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.



The truth is that not all Southerners are racist. Anybody who says they are is a bigot.

The truth is that not every person who flies the "Confederate flag" is a racist. Some are just ignorant.

The truth is that said flag is the standard of a treasonous, barbarous coup that existed for one reason: to OWN HUMAN BEINGS AS PROPERTY.



That is all.

[INTELBYTES]

21. What a load of crap!

Check your history.

The North, having the larger population was trying to impose it's will on the south, and it's laws. They were also trying to garner more taxes from southerns. That is why the south decided to seceede. The northern states still had slavery. How does that jive with your argument? In fact Boston was a major port for the slavery trade. It wasn't until close to the end of the war that the slave issue even became a factor. It has been perpetuated by those who would dupe others into believing their own version of history. The reconstruction is still going on today obviously.

The only correct statement was:

"The truth is that not all Southerners are racist. Anybody who says they are is a bigot.

The truth is that not every person who flies the "Confederate flag" is a racist."

[trof]

16. Give it up, INTEL.

This battle has been fought sooo many times here.
It's always a loser for both sides.
The Confederate flag means different things to different people.
The folks who see it as racist can't rest until you admit that you see it that way too.

I don't try to get folks to see it my way anymore.
They can just see it their way, and that's fine. I don't rise to the bait now. I try to "humor" them out of the flame war, like I did here. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.
(self)Righteous indignation is a hard thing to reason with.
Go forth upon the peaceful path, turning the other cheek, and be content within thy soul.
Whatever THAT means.
;-)

[INTELBYTES]

23. Thanks Trof, your right...

Being a southern who has an appreciation for history of both the north and south, it annoys the crap out of me when people make ignorant statements about an emblem of heritage and try to call it something that it was never meant to be.

[Whitacre D_WI]

27. Check YOUR history.

First of all, I quoted THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY, from 1961. You have quoted NO primary sources.


Look, Intelbytes, I do NOT for a second believe that you are a racist. Unfortunately, the UDC and Sons of the Confederacy have corrupted your "history" with lies and half-truths.

States' rights? What about the rights of natal states like Kansas, which didn't want slavery? The 1850s South IMPOSED slavery upon them. Yes, the Civil War was about States' rights: the rights of states NOT to allow slavery, and the rights of states NOT to be forced to return runaways under the Fugitive Slave Act. The Confederacy OPPOSED states' rights.


If you have a different interpretation of that flag, fine. I don't care if you fly it or not. And I'm GLAD that you are proud of your Southern heritage. But try not to let your pride blind you to the evils of men like Alexander Stephens, Jefferson Davis, and Nathan Bedford Forrest. That's a non-starter.

Remember:
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
-- Alexander Stephens, CSA Vice President, 1961


After this, I hope we can agree to disagree on specific interpretations. I DO however, have a big problem when people call me "ignorant," when the facts I have presented are 100% accurate.

The flag has a lot of meanings. It IS a symbol of heritage, it is ALSO a symbol of hate. The South is not about hate -- but the Confederacy was, in the words of its own administration.

[INTELBYTES]

Then reply to the statement on the bottom of post 13.

I didn't know we had a "confederat" vice president in 1961.

[Whitacre D_WI]

31. You never addressed post 13 to me.

So I didn't feel the need to reply.

Okay, then! I don't think we should ban the Confederate flag. Like I said, I don't care if you fly it or not -- IMHO, the flag can mean something different from the army over which it flew (an army which fought for the right of rich white people to own black people as property, and to treat them as chattel).

And if you didn't know there was a Confederate Vice President in 1861, it is you who needs to check your history: Alexander Stephens was VP to Jefferson Davis (president of the CSA).


Really, simmah down now. I am not calling you racist, and I am not calling (most) Southerners racist (I say most, because there are plenty of racists up North as well). I am just pointing to the fact that the leaders of the Confederacy (not necessarily all the soldiers, but definitely the leaders) fought the war for one reason: To own black people as property.


Think of it this way: Jefferson Davis is to the South as G. W. Bush is to the United States today. I love my country, but I hate what Bush has done to it -- likewise, I love the South, but I fucking well hate Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens, and Nathan Bedford Forrest.



edit: OOPS! I see now! 1961? No, buddy, EIGHTEEN-sixty-one. My bad. :dunce:

Oh well. I stand by the rest.

[INTELBYTES]

36. I was just picking on you with the "1961" thing, I knew what you meant.

You said you didn't care if I fly the Confederate flag or not. I appreciate that, and we can agree on that, but many do not feel as you do. They want to remove the very image of it from public place.

If the war was about slavery, then why were blacks fighting as union soldiers?

Slavery did become the issue, but it was not the reason behind the war. That is the important point that most people miss.

[Whitacre D_WI]

37. Hee hee.

If the war was about slavery, then why were blacks fighting as union soldiers?

Well, because they wanted to end slavery, of course!

I think you meant to say, why were blacks fighting as Confederate soldiers?

The first CSA Negro Brigade was formed in the Spring of 1865. Yes, after the war was pretty much over.

There were some who proposed the suggestion (I believe R. E. Lee may have been one of them) that slaves be offered their freedom in exchange for military service to the CSA. Davis vetoed this suggestion, as he believed it would undermine the theory that "negroes" were inferior.

In mid-spring '65, the CSA was on the ropes and had nothing left to lose -- so they did offer a handful of slaves (and Southern black freedmen) emancipation in exchange for service.

Slavery did become the issue, but it was not the reason behind the war. That is the important point that most people miss.

You are half-right. Slavery did become the issue, but was not the reason behind the war -- in the North. Northerners didn't want to fight to free the slaves in 1861 (after all, they were pretty damned racist as well), they only fought to preserve the Union.

Halfway through the war, after three things -- the valor shown by black brigades in combat, the stories of escaped slaves, and the Emancipation Proclamation -- public opinion in the North began to change.

In the South, most soldiers were not fighting for slavery (most Southerners could not afford slaves). But Davis, Stephens, et. al. -- the LEADERSHIP of the CSA was all about the subjugation of (and ownership of) a race they considered to be inferior.



And yes, I am aware that Maryland (which remained in the Union) was still a slave state. Maryland slaves were, however, released with the Emancipation Proclamation.

[INTELBYTES]

38. LOL, we both had a brain-fart. Were even now.

yep, I meant blacks fighting for the confederacy.

The Original seven States that were planning to seceede were doing so because they saw the federal goverment imposing upon their rights as soveriegn states. Slavery was an issue as all were slave states, but that was still a minor part of the overall picture. The Southern States, unlike the northern states, were feircely independent. They did not want the federal goverement, who happened to be in the north, telling what laws they had to enforce, much less paying taxes that were being levied upon them by the feds.

The war was about independence pure and simple. It was not, as many believe a war about slavery. The north did not fight to free blacks in the south, the fought to keep the south from seceeding.

This is what steams me about those that make the Confederate Flag an evil symbol. It wasn't that. It was a flag that represented the Confederate states and their fight for independence.

[Whitacre D_WI]

42. Oh, now we're back to that.

The flag that represented the Confederate states was the "Stars and Bars," this:



After 1863, this was the Confederate flag:




What people are talking about in this thread is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia:



This is the flag that flew over Lee's army, but not over the Confederate Capitol.

[INTELBYTES]

56. But there is a reason for the different design.

The flag you have on top was the flag they took into fight at Manassas and Bull Run Creek. That flag look so much like the northern flag that casualties were taken on both sides because of the confusion. General Beauregard demanded a new flag for the troops to rally under. They adopted an adaption of the Scottish Saint Andrew flag. Thus the new look to the stars and bars that we consider the Confederate Flag today.

[Pobeka]

30. Phew, I thought this 700 club'er was gonna have to rack up some posts.

Thanks for sparing me with that bit of wisdom!

Back to lurking...

[trof]

11. OK. Ah'm ready fer yuh.

[Maddy McCall]

15. I live in south Mississippi...in the rhinestone on the buckle of the bible

belt, and I have never seen anyone wear a shirt like that.

?????

[trof]

17. so NOW yer trashin' my wardrobe?

jeez
And I tried SO hard.
;-)

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. FWIW, I am going to post this again...My husband has a Confederate

flag neatly folding among his belongings. Why, you ask? Because it is (for the good and the bad) part of his heritage. William Dale Harper, age 19 fought and died in the Civil War. I think at age 19 he believed he was fighting for what was right...just like the soldiers in Iraq today. They think they are fighting for what is right even at the expense of innocent Iraqi children. Would you spit on them for that?

Is my husband racist? Not in the least. Are a lot of people going to think he is because he has a Confenderate flag rolled up among his belongings...to commemorate an ancestor of his, part of his ancestry...? I'm sure of it. But I will tell you he is far less bigotted then a lot of people who "supposedly" stand for equal rights and affirmative action.

I guess what I am trying to say is that there are different sides to every story. Thanks for giving this some thought.

:hi:

[trof]

22. and I would marry you tonight

if we wouldn't be breaking a few laws.
The voice of reason is pleasant on the ear.
:loveya:

[Democrats unite]

24. Sorry I totally disagree with you.

The Civil War was fought for one reason & one reason only The inhumanity of a whole race into slavery, period end of sentence the is no spinning that. It must never be forgotten It must never be forgotten, and it shall never be forgotten.

With that said if you husband is proud of his southern heritage thats fine I'm proud of mine also. But when the Confederate flag is waved IMO, it is waved in bigotry & hate & thats just how I fell about it.

[INTELBYTES]

26. I'm sorry then that would make you the bigots.

If you demonize a group of people as racist who had nothing to do with slavery, and is flying the confederate flag for their heritage sake, that makes you a racist by definition. You impose your moral decision upon a person not by who he is, but what flag he choose to fly.

[Democrats unite]

29. Makes me a bigot...

Because I refuse to let one group of people honor the memory of keeping another group of people as slaves? Now thats class! Thanks for sharing.

their hertiage is what this is all about. I don't see them flying cotton?


on edit: but I have on occasion seen something hanging.

[INTELBYTES]

25. Thanks MrsGrumpy!

Great statement!

[Lars39]

41. Very well said.

Good insight. War is never easy to pigeonhole. It's way too easy to broad brush the people involved. To some people the troops will never be viewed with compassion. I've got a few of those ancestors myself. :hi:

[kwolf68]

28. Eff the confederacy

Of course, the pro-Confeds have their spin.

What they ALWAYS FAIL TO mention is the Confederacy had a constitution. It was very close to the UNITED STATES constitution with two exceptions:

-It Provided for one man to own another-an institution called slavery
-It eliminated the "General Welfare" Clause

This is the rub...The South wanted to perpetuate slavery. They believed "he right"to "OWN" another human being was as much "a right" as "freedom of speech."

The is what the Confederacy really means. I was born in North Carolina and live in Virginia, but I find the glorifcation of "the old confederacy" absurd. Just as I love my country, I found our treatment of Native Americans to be a moral travesty and that makes me no less an American.

Just because you are "from" somewhere in no way means you have to be proud of every damn thing ever done. Just as Germans aren't busy celebrating the Nazis and flying Swastikas, I believe Southerners should quit fighting the damn Civil war, get over it and move on toward an existence that unites Americans, something the confederate flag hardly does.

[INTELBYTES]

33. I'm sorry, didn't the northern states have slavery?

Oh yeah, didn't they import the slaves too?

So why are you flying the American flag?

I believe the Southerns have stopped fighting the war, but the northerns are still trying to impose their will and reconstruction on the south by removing every vestige of their heritage. And the insidious thing about it, is that they do it with their own fabrications and rewriting of history.

[Whitacre D_WI]

34. History was "rewritten" by the UDC,

the United Daughters of the Confederacy, between 1890-1920. This period saw the rise of the Ku Klux Klan, and the most racist American president ever (Wilson).

We are still saddled with their burden.

If you want the TRUTH, read primary sources from the Civil War era. This was before anybody got the fog of time wrapped around it, these are the sources that tell the real story.

[Democrats unite]

35. Simple answer...

Who fought to end it, who fought to keep it. You see it always comes back to the same premise.

[INTELBYTES]

40. The north was not fighting the civil war to free slaves.

I made an earlier post about this. They were fighting to keep the South from seceding. The South was not fighting to keep slaves, they were fighting to be independent. Yes they were slave states, but there were slaves in the north as well. The issue was not about slaves, (or gays), it was about independence.

[Democrats unite]

43. People who do not remember history...

are doomed to repeat it! Ever hear of the emancipation proclamation? Would you care to tell me which side wrote it? This is what the Civil war was fought for. & yes you are correct the North was bound & determined to make the South bow on the issue & they did. The surrender of Lee was one of the best shining moments in American History.

[solinvictus]

50. Ending Slavery and the Union

Sherman himself said that if the war were about slavery, he'd resign his commission and walk home.

[Democrats unite]

54. Funny I can't seem to find that quote...

WOuld you like to help me?

[Pobeka]

32. So, who here is flying one of those American flags from their car window?

[DrWeird]

39. It's like flying the swastika outside of germany.

Do you think people fly swastikas because they want to honor their history?

Besides, WWII was about a lot more than the holocaust.

Why, jewish people killed other jewish people historically too, right?

[INTELBYTES]

45. Ahhh Dr.Weird, so now your equate southerns with nazis?

The Germans are not very proud of that part of that time of their history. They followed a mad man into all sorts of atrocities. Are you calling our American men that fought for independence the same as those that tortured and tried to exterminate a race of people. What a wild leap you make to try to make a point.

Oh, and some do still fly the nazi flag in Germany. They are skinheads and live a life of hatred. That flag stood for a man and his ideals to rule the world, and exterminate jews. Was that how you picture the war of Southern Independence, aka the Civil War?

[DrWeird]

47. You see, the good thing about the Germans...

is that they acknowledge the past and regret it. Unlike southerners, who think that slavery wasn't all that bad, and that the south didn't really lose.

People who fly the swasitka will tell you it's about honoring their heritage and pure strength of will. This is the same kind of thing you here from the confederate flag wavers. And often because they're the very same people.

Really I see very little difference between slavery and the holocaust. Or Nazi Germany and the Confederacy.

People who fly the flag are either racists, ignoramuses, or assholes. Usually all three.

[Toby109]

49. Spot on DrWeird

I'm a Southerner born and bred and I have always avoided these threads but I would like to make a point, if I may. If a large group of people consider that flag to be offensive, might it not be time to, perhaps, find another symbol to use to "honor their southern heritage"? To me, that period in time is nothing to be proud of.

[Democrats unite]

48. & allot of Southerners are proud of their history of Slavery...

So whats your point?

Oh, and some do still fly the confederate flag in the South. They are KKK and live a life of hatred. The flag stood for independence from a nation that would not allow slavery. Or to have black people hung from the nearest tree, or had a limb removed for trying to be free &to be with a white female, well we won't even go there. Can I picture this some what to Nazi Germany? Your Damn Right!

[billbuckhead]

52. The Nazi flag is not acceptable in Germany why should ConFlag be...

acceptable here? The South has lost that 1860's war morally, spititually and on the ground. What is there to be proud of in the Confederacy? Truth be known, the Union won the war with one hand tied behind it's back. No less than Shelby Steele says so. Maybe if the Union wasn't so kind to the rebelling states after the war, a lot of wars after that wouldn't have happened.

[Democrats unite]

51. & to be perfectly clear before I leave this tripe behind me...

This is what started the Civile War. Know your history people!


He started the Civil War


slavery was the foundation of the antebellum south. More than any other charteristic, it defined Southern social , political and cultural life. It also unified the South as a section distinict from the rest of the nation. John C Calhoun, the South recognized intellectual and political leader from 1820's until his death in 1850, devoted much of his intellectual energy to defending slavery. He devolped a two point defense, One was a polical theory that the rights of minority section-in ...

[mlawson]

53. I thought the Lounge was to be clear of posts like this!!

What's going on???