I need help DU! My basement is bulging! *PIX*

[grace0418]

Okay, so we live in a duplex condo (first and ground floor) and we are getting ready to redo the lower level. It's halfway below grade and finished but we don't love the carpet and we want to change a few other things.

Last week we had a flooring guy come out to give us an estimate on some different flooring options. As I was moving some stuff around so he could get in and measure accurately, I noticed something odd in the corner.

Our floor that has looked like this for the last 8 years:




Now looked like this:




We had no clue what to make of it but the flooring guy was on his way so we thought we'd ask him. When he got there, he pulled up the carpeting to reveal this:



The concrete was weirdly bulging and flaking. It sounded almost hollow and appeared somewhat moist (not wet, just slightly damp). He suspected that perhaps our landscapers were leaving the sprinklers running too close to our building and our downstairs window (there is a window directly above the area in the drawing) and something was leaking in. All I know is we've had some very heavy rains over the years and not once has our lower level had a drop of water. Even when every other basement in the area flooded.

So we called our management company and insurance to determine our next step. Since our building insurance covers anything outside our walls and our condo insurance covers the inside, we wanted to make sure that we proceeded correctly. Our management company hired a reputable waterproofing company to come take a look. He came out today and told us he has no idea what it is. He said he's been in the business for 20 years and that this had him scratching his head. He said it's not a waterproofing issue, or a tree root. The only thing he could recommend was to chip away at the lump and see what's underneath. Naturally, I'm concerned that we start chipping away at this lump and suddenly raw sewage starts spraying through a crack or something.

Has anyone seen anything like this? Does anyone have any suggestions who we might call to take a look at this, if a waterproofing company isn't the right place? We are at a total loss.

Thank you in advance for any suggestions. I'll cross-post this in home improvement as well.

[AllegroRondo]

1. Giant gophers?

seriously, I'm stumped. I had a basement floor that did the opposite, and fell about 6 inches in a corner due to water washing out gravel under the foundation. But that was a relatively easy fix.
:shrug:

[grace0418]

2. I know, I have horrible visions of weird bugs pouring out of the hole when we

dig into it. But the more real possibility of raw sewage is even worse I suppose.

[Fran Kubelik]

3. i dunno but

i like your pictures! :bounce:

[grace0418]

5. Thanks!

And thanks for keeping it kicked anyway.

[stuntcat]

29. that's what I wanted to say!

it's ART I swear!! good job

(can't help though, sorry)

[grace0418]

37. Wow. Thanks!

Now if only I had studied engineering instead of art I might know how to fix this mess. LOL!

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. There is something strange and scary about your drawing. n/t

[grace0418]

6. Uh, okay. I don't know what to do with that.

But thanks for keeping it kicked.

[Writer]

7. Your basement is pregnant.

Just wait six more months and all will be well... although you may have a bit more square footage.

[grace0418]

9. Now *that* would be nice. We could use more square footage.

A yard would be nice too.

[racaulk]

8. I've never seen anything like that before.

I'm certainly not a home improvement expert by any means. Although one thing I think you should definitely consider is how quickly this lump formed. If it formed over a long period of time (and you just didn't notice until recently), then it may be just due to the natural shifting of floors and walls over time...although that seems unlikely. If it appeared suddenly, then you may have a very real possibility of a sewer or water leak under there, and you should definitely proceed with caution. Other than those things or the root of a tree, I can't imagine what else could move solid concrete like that.

Sorry, I wish I could be more help, but I really don't know much in this area. Good luck with whatever happens, I hope it works out for you. :hi:

And I hope you're not upset with me for spoofing this thread. The wording of the title (especially after you edited it), combined with my currently silly mood, led to me doing that. I guess the least I can do is kick this thread in return.

:pals:

[grace0418]

11. Not upset at all. I figured my title would cause some snickering.

But I have a really hard time getting people to read my posts so I figured I'd go ahead and change it to something more eye-catching. ;)

Thanks for kicking and thanks for your advice and hugs. I'll let everyone know what we find out. I *really* hope it's not a sewer line. Ew!

:hi:

[flvegan]

10. Looks like a diffusion problem, which is moisture related.

It looks and sounds like it might be the diffusion of vapor as it's worked through the slab over time.

[grace0418]

12. Could that be something that would well up rather suddenly?

I know for a fact that the lump wasn't there a few months ago, because I had moved a bunch of stuff around and would've noticed it then. Do you think the leak from a sewer or water line could cause the diffusion?

Thanks for the advice in any event. :hi:

[flvegan]

13. I'm no expert on it

but it can, from what I understand, appear rather quickly. It's usually from underground or absorbed moisture that the slab can't get rid of quickly enough, or if there's no vapor barrier (I forget the technical term) or not enough of one. I think that it COULD be from a pipe or sewer, but that's not usually the reason. It happens over time.

I only know what I know because I did a LOT of research on concrete slab construction when I was buying my house, so again, I'm no real expert. I also don't know if you need a slab specialist or an engineer at this point, either. Be thankful that you have insurance as they should take care of this.

[grace0418]

14. Thanks flvegan!

I'm hoping my insurance company will at least know who to call.

[flvegan]

15. Well, if a reputable waterproofing company

didn't at least consider that vapor diffusion might be an issue, you might want to mention it to them. I hope I'm way way way off, because if you have a problem, then you probably won't be the only one who will at some point.

Good luck!

[grace0418]

16. You mean we won't be the only one with problems in our building?

Yeah, I thought it was odd too that the guy didn't have any idea. The company gets very highly rated on Angie's List and he claimed to have 20 years of experience. But still, with all these old Chicago buildings you'd think they would've seen everything by now. I suppose we could try to get a second opinion from another waterproofing company. Or maybe a plumber, if the possibility is that it's a leak.

[KG]

17. my semi-pro opinion from being in the concrete/construction biz a few years.

from what you describe, moisture has gotten to the steel reinforcing in the slab, and it is rusting and expanding, causing the bulging and flaking.

JMHO

[grace0418]

18. Interesting. Thanks. Do you have any idea who we might contact to look at this?

In any case, thanks so much for you help.

[KG]

19. a knowledgeable home inspector.

if this is in fact the cause. the fix inside isn't that big a deal. finding the source and fixing the water intrusion might be a bear.

[grace0418]

20. Maybe I'll suggest that to our insurance agent. I hope finding the water intrusion

isn't too awful, we were planning to sell in the next year and I don't want to have some awful issues after 8 years of no problems. :eyes:

Thanks again KG.

[KG]

21. a good inspector will know. he would also have a moisture testing meter.

they might have to dig down outside and apply a sealant. also and maybe look behind the drywall in that area to see if there's any damage behind it.

but again, this just my 'fristian' diagnosis based on an illustration and narrative.

[grace0418]

22. LOL! Well, you had more insight than the guy who actually came here and looked

at it. I know both the flooring guy we had and the waterproofer used a moisture meter and didn't come up with anything. Other than the faint dampness on the lump itself, there doesn't seem to be much moisture anywhere in the area.

[greatauntoftriplets]

23. Wow, that is just bizarre...

Until a bit over a year ago, I had lived in a house in Edgewater Glen with a basement for more years than I will admit. Some houses on the street flooded regularly with heavy rains. Ours never did except once, and it was only a little bit of water at a time more than 20 years ago when virtually everyone's basement flooded.

I have no clue what happened to you and hope that you can find someone to figure it out. I have never seen anything remotely like that.

Best of luck. I know that you are thinking about selling and moving.

[grace0418]

24. Thanks hon. The waterproofing guy actually said "that's going to go down as one

of the weirdest things I've seen." Great. :eyes:

Yeah, you're a Chicagoan, so you know how these old buildings normally flood. That's why I've been so impressed with our lower level. It doesn't even have that musty smell like some finished basements have. It's been perfect for 8 years. Now that we're getting ready to sell, it's like the freaking walls heard us talking about and are plotting against us. :)

[greatauntoftriplets]

25. And your lower level is really dry...

So was our basement, but there was this whitish crap on the walls of it that the realtor called effloresence. She asked if we diverted our gutter system runoff away from the house. We didn't, but didn't have a clue what it was. So we had the crap removed from the basement walls and had them sealed before we sold. The new owners did something added to the gutter system to take care of that. It is basically adding something to your downspout system to move the rain and snow water that comes through your gutters away from the house. If you drive past a house and see a tube coming from the downspout to the lawn, that is what I am talking about.

But that isn't your problem, because (except for the floor) your lower level looks fine. A real puzzler, and I wish I could help.

[merh]

26. it could be bad -

http://www.surveyorsreports.co.uk/sulphate_survey_report.htm

http://www.concrete-experts.com/pages/exsulfat.htm



But I can't find anything about in in the US. x(

Good luck to you with that awful lump. Maybe a university has a professor that can be of some help.

Or email her http://ciks.cbt.nist.gov/~ferraris/homepage.html

Best of luck to you :hi:

[grace0418]

27. Thanks for the links and the research merh!

I will read them thoroughly. It's been difficult to find anything online. I've googled "heaving concrete" and similar searches and not come up with very much. So this is a start. I figure if I present a number of possibilities to whomever we get out to look at this it should help them.

Thanks again, it sounds like I'm going to need all the good luck I can get.

:hi:

[merh]

28. Why not email this lady

Dr. Chiara F. "Clarissa" Ferraris
Materials and Construction Research Division
Building and Fire Research Laboratory
100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8615
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8615 USA
[phone]
FAX: [phone]

E-mail: [e-mail]

Dr. Ferraris joined the Inorganic Building Materials Group of the Materials and Construction Research Division in January 1994. She is carrying out studies on rheology of concrete, alkali-silica reactions, sorption measurements and sulfate attack in concrete. Other topics include rubber fibers for plastic shrinkage prevention, self-leveling compounds, and particle size distribution.

Send her your images and ask her if she has ever heard of such growths.

And please keep us updated. If it it just your building is pregnant, let us know what it births. Maybe it will be the hole that the aliens will use to come help us save our planet and stop the whackos an their wars.

:hi:

[grace0418]

30. I will indeed. I forgot to say that before.

Yeah, my friends think it's a doorway to hell. I'm hoping for something more like what you're talking about. :)

Thanks again! I will definitely keep you updated.

[merh]

31. I figured it out

It's the hatch from LOST :wow:



:hide:









Of course, you are quite welcome. I found it very curious and enjoyed the odd research :hi:

[ashling]

32. So, for the last 8 years you have lived

in a cartoon? :shrug:

[grace0418]

33. Well, how long have you looked like a little yellow tennis ball with a face and arms?

Maybe you should live in my cartoon house. ;)

[madrchsod]

34. it`s the mole people digging out of your basement

[grace0418]

36. Surprisingly enough, I didn't have nightmares last night after all the similar

suggestions I got. :)

[Schema Thing]

35. 19,724 tubes of the cheapest caulk you can find

Just work your way back from the farthest point from the basement door to the top of your stairs.

[grace0418]

38. We did consider making a permanent sculpture on top of the spot to hide the lump

but the home inspectors would probably pick up on that.

[Kali]

39. your illustrations are great, but is there any way you could post a couple

of real pix? (use some extra lighting if you can) Husband is a mason and might know something.

[grace0418]

41. I meant to take some photos when I got home last night but completely spaced out.

I will try tonight. Thanks Kali!

[Kali]

43. He wants to know how old the place is, are walls concrete or block?

and it kind of sounds like maybe when the floor was poured there might have been mortar from the block walls spilled in that spot and the concrete guys thought it was just concrete and poured over it - he said the mixture would have lime in it and that could cause problems with the steel and the hollow sound and the flaking. Or some other "contaminant" might have been spilled there.

He also said if it was a "monopour" (I have no clue about this terminology) a bubble of water could have been trapped there and damaged the steel (they might have sealed over it and sealed the water in) and when it popped the water dried out - thus you can't find any moisture or the very small amount you found is evaporating.

He says dig it up. Chisel and hammer.

(oh and thanks, he is yakking my ear off with his theories - might be more to come)

[grace0418]

47. Thanks Kali. Tell your husband he rocks. The building was originally

built in 1925. It was gutted in 1998/9. I know that new water lines were put in during the rehab (coming from the street) so I don't know how much was done in terms of ripping out old and putting in new. If I go by the unfinished basement areas where our common storage rooms are located, the wall looks like blocks or stones with mortar. It is pretty flaky and dusty in the common areas. We have a building clean-up once a year and we spend a lot of time sweeping up that kind of stuff. Maybe I'll take some pictures of the common area wall as well. It would be hard to tell in our lower level because it's drywall and all finished.

Thank you again. I will post pictures later tonight. I really appreciate your husband's advice, we are so stumped by this.

[Kali]

51. ah - the age tells him it that the walls are not concrete

I wonder if you don't have a second layer of something poured over the original slab? I have a bathroom that has that it was originally sort of a porch/outdoor kitchen and turned into a bathroom in the 40's and they redid the floor - it has some places about 3/8 of an inch chipping out of it and you can clearly see the difference.

Bottom line, doubt if you are going to find any kind of gushing sewer or water line under there or it would be wetter. I wouldn't be able to resist picking at it! But if you have insurance or other entities that might object, better wait for their pros.

[grace0418]

52. ***PIX!***PIX!*** Real ones, not drawings!

Okay, first is a shot from a few feet away.




Here is a close-up. We started picking away at the lump a little bit, but got too nervous. So it's a little more broken up than it was when we first pulled the carpet back.




Here is a view to give you a better sense of the size of the lump. For some reason the photos make it look flatter than it really is.




Lastly, here is an exterior wall in our basement common area. Unfortunately, our neighbors are using it as a storage space while their condo is on the market so it was hard to get a clear shot.




Does this ring any bells or look like anything your husband has seen before?

[Kali]

59. ok he says that is definatly wierd!

how strange that it didn't push the baseboards up, or otherwise do much of anything to them but stain a bit.

To me it almost looks like the concrete is really thin and it is soil underneath - what is the texture of the darker parts? It looks like soil to me. In the old days basements often only had a dirt floor...????

You are 100% positive it wasn't there before? When were the baseboards put in?

In our state we have a service you can call (Blue Stake) before construction to locate and mark underground utilities - or maybe your association has something like that - if they re-did water and sewer lines that info should be available somewhere - that would help eliminate those things as a cause if you can't just figure out where they go by "logic" (is that corner near a bathroom or kitchen or are they above it? - do you know where outdoor main shut-offs are? Might be able to visualize where lines run that way)

If you can remember, PM me when you get this figured out - we are really curious now and I might not see if you post the story as I'm not always here.

[grace0418]

60. The baseboards were there when we first looked at the place in 1999. We were

the first owners after the rehab. The lump was definitely not there prior to last Christmas. I normally have an art table in that area with a chair in the corner, and I was working on a lot of homemade gifts around Christmas and didn't notice anything odd. The chair would've been tipping at a very weird angle if the lump was always there.

I know, isn't it so weird that the baseboards haven't moved or been warped? They're not even really stained, just a little dirty. It makes no sense to me. The texture seems like concrete/sand/dirt/plaster. I doubt it's all those things but that's what it feels like.

That corner is not near a bathroom or kitchen, but it is near the water main shut off for the building. See that skinny, dark brown wall just to the right of the lump in the first photo? You can't see it but there is a tiny door in that wall that leads to the shut off. However, we looked in there and the pipe runs away from the area of the lump, and there is no sweating or leaking or moisture of any kind. I believe even the waterproofing guy checked that out. It doesn't seem possible that an additional water pipe would be running so close to the water main but not connect to it in any way. That's another reason I was concerned about it being a sewer line.

It's just bizarre.

Thanks again.

[Kali]

61. I wondered about that structure in the corner.

I want to say something like frost heave, but again it seems like it would have done something to the baseboards as well!

I say keep picking at it! It just doesn't look like anything that is going to outright burst with liquid or is would be seeping through already.

:think: IDEA: Call an archaeologist! :rofl: - they are good at slow excavation by hand, have their own tools and besides they work for cheap, ask my sister!

[grace0418]

62. Given that most people think it's a portal to hell or some kind of mythical

creature's nest, maybe that's not a bad idea. LOL!

I know, whatever it is, it was strong enough to bust through the concrete but somehow leave the baseboards and walls intact. Wilco. Tango. Foxtrot.

[likesmountains 52]

40. post this over in the DIY group...those folks are awesome..

[grace0418]

42. I have, thanks. I got a couple of great suggestions but the lounge just has more

volume so I thought I'd do both. They are great over there though aren't they? Duers really helped me out when we were changing some plumbing recently.

[AngryAmish]

44. Maybe it is the nest of a mixed animal normally found in the woods

[bicentennial_baby]

45. I head that Oscar's going to be running Iraq while

the parliament is on vacation :shrug:

[jobycom]

46. Basements really exist?????

I thought they were fictional places people kept their crazy relatives!

[grace0418]

48. Yes, they do. And sometimes they're a real pain in the arse.

No crazy relatives though. Just desks and my art table.

And sometimes these (shudder):

[jobycom]

49. Wow, next I'll meet someone who has chains on their tires. nt

[Raven]

50. Jimmy Hoffa?

[cynatnite]

53. Looks like your home needs an exorcism...

I'm not catholic, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night :smoke:

[grace0418]

54. I think I'm going to have some fun with Photoshop and the pictures I posted upthread

a little ways.

[ElboRuum]

55. They must have used Concrete-9

It's like Ice-9 only rather than a form of water solid at room temperature, you have concrete that becomes liquid after it's cured.

The only cure is to pretend they're Giant Gophers.

[grace0418]

58. I wasn't even sure if you were kidding.

That's how little I know about concrete. Or ice, apparently. ;)

[krispos42]

56. Oh, it's not a sex thread

Nevermine....




:evilgrin:

[grace0418]

57. I'm not bulging "down there" I'm bulging downSTAIRS.

;)