*Flame bait clarified within* - Women trade sex for love; men trade love for sex"

[RadiationTherapy]

The phrase in the subject was how I was first introduced to this concept, but I like to change the terms to yin ("female energy") and yang ("male energy") because this hasn't played out biologically in my experience.

Anyhow, does anyone else relate to this concept? Does yin's nurturing and nesting nature make it a more romantic energy? Does yang's electric, hunter type energy make it more about satisfaction in the moment?...conquest even?

As I mention in another post:

Love = close your eyes and kiss me!

[MissMillie]

1. I didn't think it was "flame bait", but an earnest discussion

and all points are valid.

[RadiationTherapy]

13. I agree

I thought it may be perceived as flamage because the modifiers 'many' and 'most' were not used and I am, typically, not a broad brush sort of guy.

[PVnRT]

2. People trade genetic material during sex

[RadiationTherapy]

14. It is depending on your definition of sex, I suppose.

I have definitely NOT exchanged genetics with everyone I have had sex with.

[redqueen]

3. It's BS, IMO.

Everyone has a different mix of what they consider more important so that 'trade' thing is just generalizing BS. Sure there are extremes you could look at to make the BS look "true" but only when you eliminate all but the extremes.

[HERVEPA]

6. Well Put.

[RadiationTherapy]

11. Sorry I hit and ran....had a meeting

My experience is contrary to your opinion because MANY females (bio females)I have met TRY to be a player, but get tripped up by their hearts often. I also know plenty of bio-males who try to be lovers only to be betrayed by their conquesting cocks.

Since the phrase is an anecdote, anecdotal experience will have to do.

Although I prefer to look at it as "energy" rather than bio-gender (specifically astrological profiles seems to be revealing), still, the majority of bio-males and females I have met seem to "follow" the "rule" in the OP very specifically. Not that there's anything wrong either way.

[redqueen]

15. Get to know more people.

:hi:

[RadiationTherapy]

24. Not helpful, but makes a good bumper sticker.

I'll not say the same to you as I would really have no way of knowing who you are, where you are from, what cultures you have experienced, what roads you have traveled or what prejudices you may have that may make you see things that aren't there and not see other things that are.

I will take your advice because meeting new people is important to me.

[redqueen]

30. I'm only saying that you haven't met everyone...

I've met a different set of people and my experience is completely different.

The fact of it is that even if there were a detailed study and the results backed up your hypothesis, it would still be meaningless... because these things are not strictly biological in nature. It would seem to me that as is the case with sexuality, most people fall somewhere along a wide range of behavior types... and as I said before, only the extreme cases would fit your theory.

[RadiationTherapy]

33. It isn't my theory and, as I explained in the OP, isn't about bio-gender...

it is about archetypes and people. The only way I could approach this as a "study" would be astrologically because, stop laughing, now, I have found that people DO tend to exhibit certain traits based on the amount of male or female energy in their charts.

This is not a bio-gender issue.

[redqueen]

34. Okay but see you're making it a "bio-gender" issue

when you talk about who does what to get what from whom. Do you not agree with that?

[RadiationTherapy]

42. Yes I do agree that the OP subject line is about bio-gender

but I explained MY opinion in the OP message that this does not work for bio-gender; I think it does work for archetypes was curious if anyone else agreed or related to that aspect.

Do you agree that there are male and female archetypes of which we are all a blend?

[redqueen]

43. I agree with that yes.

I think I made that clear in my first reponse. I just referred to your "archetypes" as "extremes". :)

[RadiationTherapy]

49. Ahhhh, yes. Ok

The Archetypes ARE the extremes because they define the parameters we are discussing. I understand. Sorry.

You are asserting that, because so few people are "extreme" in their yin or yang, that it is NOT a helpful distinction to make?? I can see that. I can also say that understanding the dynamics of these archetypes has helped me greatly in my interpersonal moments. It helped me better discern where "no strings" sex was available or where deep emotional relations were available. Before that, I had my heart broken by "no strings" misunderstandings and broke a couple of hearts by being on the other end of it. I also understand better that when my wife is kissing my neck and holding me and humming a song, it is not the time to turn around and say..."mmmm...wanna fuck?"


I may not be able to return soon...heading home now. Thanks for pushing me; you were like a workout. g.

[redqueen]

51. But the problem is that it's dangerous to assume...

based on archetypes or whatever you want to call them. It's fine for discussions and such but very, very bad for application in real life. I'm glad it's worked out well for you, but it really is dangerous to assume much of anything like that applies, either way. At least with the "feeling someone's interests out", you're dealing with that particular person, as an individual. I think you have less chance of making a mistake than if you just assume that because they're x then such-and-such a rule probably applies.

Heh... I'm always glad to be a bother. :P

[RadiationTherapy]

52. as I disregard my family briefly

Jeez. Yeah. This isn't for bars, clubs or meat markets. This is for subtle clues and hints about a person's make up and needs/desires as they ebb and flow.

[redqueen]

53. OK but if so

then why the need for archetypes at all? Why not just use the subtle clues and hints as a guide?

[RadiationTherapy]

55. Don't know. Had a good conversation though!

Eh. It helps me; maybe it helps others.

I see a lot lot lot of threads asking for help understanding affairs of the heart and humans, so I started a thread.

[Withywindle]

68. Well, there ya go.

Exactly the problem:

I also understand better that when my wife is kissing my neck and holding me and humming a song, it is not the time to turn around and say..."mmmm...wanna fuck?"

Cause that would SO WORK for me. In fact, that's something I'm likely to say at a moment like that myself.

[skygazer]

27. How much of that is biology and how much of it is societal expectation?

Again, I have to point out that generalities don't work. Too simplistic and don't look at anything but surface impressions.

[RadiationTherapy]

28. and, again, I have to point out

that this platitude is how I was INTRODUCED to this concept. I, personally, adapt it to male and female "energies" of which we are all a blend; this is in the OP. This is why the phrase is flame bait that needed explaining in the text of my OP.

That said, I, obviously, agree with you 100%. I try to be pretty careful about broad brush sorts of statements.

[skygazer]

29. Okay, I guess I'm a little confused by what you're looking for

The OP seemed to be asking about people's opinions about the concept. My opinion is that its pretty much a useless generalization. You say you agree with me 100%. So what is it we're discussing?

[RadiationTherapy]

31. I just asked if people related to the concept of yin and yang...

from the OP - "Anyhow, does anyone else relate to this concept? Does yin's nurturing and nesting nature make it a more romantic energy? Does yang's electric, hunter type energy make it more about satisfaction in the moment?...conquest even?"

Miss Millie said she relates to this concept and it matches, to an extent, her experience.

Redqueen explained that the concept, original or modified, is invalid in her experience and told me that I need to meet more people.

You related that the phrase in the subject was broad brush BS. I agree 100% that, when it comes to bio-gender, it is irrelevant and, in many cases, invalid. However, I do feel that the archetypal concepts of yin and yang DO break down along these lines (yin trades sex for love and yang trades love for sex) and I have found this information useful in understanding my interactions with others (sexually and romantically)

Perhaps you do not agree that there are male and female energy archetypes? Or that I have ill explained them? Otherwise, I agree with you 100% and perhaps you do not "relate to this concept".

[redqueen]

32. You say it's not about "bio-gender" then you assign physically sexual roles to them.

Is that really making sense for you?

[RadiationTherapy]

36. Is it because I use "male" and "female"??

Sorry. I mean energies or archetypes; not penises and vaginas. I'm not THAT naive.

Yes, archetypes make sense to me. I see them in play in people and society. The new 'Cloverfield' movie is based on an archetypal fear that is not male or female, but obliterating and random. Completely different, but a real archetype.

[redqueen]

39. Uh... yeah. And not only that, you talk about their primary desires, sex-wise.

When you talk about the physical act of love, do you not see how you're actually the one bringing penises and vaginas into it?

[RadiationTherapy]

46. No, I do not.

I do not see what archetypes have to do with biology or gender (though gender can also be non-biological.)

Are you unfamiliar with the abstract concepts of male and female (or yang and yin, if you prefer)archetypes? the Hermaphrodite is also an archtype that, amazingly, has nothing to do with biology but with the balanced integration of the archetypes we are discussing. (the word comes from the merging of Hermes and Aphrodite both of whom are ALSO archetypes)

[redqueen]

47. If you hadn't chosen to use that particular "axiom"

to try to illustrate your point, perhaps I could see how you might reasonably expect people to ignore the "bio-gender" issues it necessarily raises. :)

[skygazer]

35. Yeah, I guess I don't agree that there are "male and female energy archetypes"

And I guess I don't understand the difference between "bio-gender" lines and yin-yang concepts. I mean, they both deviate by gender so how can one generalization be irrelevant and the other relevant?

So I suppose you are correct and I don't relate to the concept. :hi:

[RadiationTherapy]

50. "gender" is often non biological and more a psychological reference

yin and yang are archetypes, which are sort of common consiousness paradigms that Jung discovered crosses cultures and geographies.

So, I, a human with a penis who identifies as a male gender-wise, have VERY predominant yin/female archetypal make-up; I am barely "yang"

Gotta go...loved the chat.

[RadiationTherapy]

12. Sorry I hit and ran....had a meeting

My experience is contrary to your opinion because MANY females (bio females)I have met TRY to be a player, but get tripped up by their hearts often. I also know plenty of bio-males who try to be lovers only to be betrayed by their conquesting cocks.

Since the phrase is an anecdote, anecdotal experience will have to do.

Although I prefer to look at it as "energy" rather than bio-gender (specifically astrological profiles seems to be revealing), still, the majority of bio-males and females I have met seem to "follow" the "rule" in the OP very specifically. Not that there's anything wrong either way.

[Capn Sunshine]

69. There's a reason all the dudes dig you

beautiful mind. :hi:

This in no way alters my opinion of women - guy friends . thing :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. seconded, besides what about homosexual relationships?

[lost-in-nj]

4. ....

what did you do to that picture....


:scared: :scared:

lost

[Inchworm]

5. lol

scares me toooo!

:scared:

:hug:

[lost-in-nj]

7. Hi Inchy!!!!

:hug:

lost

[RadiationTherapy]

18. Boo!

[Inchworm]

19. Thats gonna be an ugly bebbe!

hehe

:hi:

[RadiationTherapy]

25. THAT is my daughter's precious

'princess ball'

We play 'Avatar the last airbender' with it!

[Maraya1969]

10. Thank you for saying that. For a minute I thought it was my eyes.

And I read down this thread just to see if anyone else saw it.

Freeky

[RadiationTherapy]

16. meh...little this a little that

I call it 'irradiating' and I have several series. Photoshoppers may recognize the 'clone stamp' tool at work here.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

21. Puts a new twist on the label "Four eyes"

[Bake]

8. Whazzup with that girl's EYES???

And the dood with no mouth?

Bake

[RadiationTherapy]

22. Aren't we beautiful? our honeymoon in Vancouver BC. n/t

[skygazer]

9. I don't know if its flame bait but I also don't really buy into it

Not all women have a nurturing and nesting nature (my, what a lot of n's) and not all men have an "electric, hunter type energy" - I'm not even sure what that may mean.

Not all women are craving love and commitment and not all men are more interested in sex than love.

Generalities and stereotypes just don't work. They're intellectually lazy and fail to take into account the uniqueness of the individual.

Just my .02.

[RadiationTherapy]

20. That's why I clarified in my OP

Of course it CAN'T be all men nor all women.

Electric/hunter type energy refers to the archetype of yang or "male" energy based on eastern philosophy and western archetypes.

yin is magnetic; yang is electric.
yin is gathering; yang is hunting.
yin is mother/nurturing; yang is protective/providing father.
yin is loving; yang is fucking
yin is Venus; yang is Mars

Of course, entire books are written about yin and yang; entire cultures pondering these archetypes. I would never be so naive as to imply that yin = all bio-females and yang = all bio-males.

[qb]

17. I trade love and sex

for love and sex.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. Best answer yet.

:thumbsup:

[RadiationTherapy]

26. Then you are well balanced in yin and yang, I believe.

I am the same way, although the urge for sex does make me a bit crass at times.

My wife bought new boots and I said "Those would look great on stage under a keyboard with a microphone and you singing." She said that is so much better than what she thought I'd say which was "those would look great on my shoulders."

So, yeah, love and sex and yin and yang...it is all so dynamic.

[SarahB]

38. I give and share love and sex.

So does he. It's called a normal, healthy relationship. I don't get the OP's statement. Relationships aren't about (or shouldn't be about) manipulation.

[redqueen]

41. Spot on!

:thumbsup:

[RadiationTherapy]

54. Hm. I JUST had this conversation at work!

I asserted that relationships are LARGELY manipulation and the woman I was speaking to was appalled!

Turns out I have a very loose definition of "manipulation" and she had a very specific and negative definition. I told her that my understanding is more politics of a relationship; I felt her ideas of manipulation were actually abuse.

I decline to accept the term "normal, healthy relationship" as meaningful.

I clarify quite a bit in this thread what the (entire) OP pertains to.

[RainDog]

64. If your definition of manipulation

is different than the general cultural agreement that it has a negative-connotation in almost every context, esp. when assigned to another human's thoughts or actions, then you have to explain that diff. before you ask any question.

yin/yang, again -- these are tied into a feminine/masculine dichotomy. You may want to think they're different, but the societally accepted version of this concept is gendered. Jung's archetypes, to me, make people miss a lot of the world. better to just approach each person as though they were unique - because they are.

[SarahB]

37. I think that's a sexist statement.

People are individuals and assumptions like that shouldn't be made based upon gender.

[redqueen]

40. You beauty.

Nice to see you around, gorgeous. :hi:

[SarahB]

44. I've been busy

working and of course having sex to "keep my man". I'd better hurry up now as I sense his love is waning. :P

Nice to see you too! :loveya:

[redqueen]

45. Hahahahahah!

:loveya:

[RadiationTherapy]

56. Gender is irrelevant to this conversation. Also -

'gender' is a mostly (totally??) psychological construct.

This conversation regards archetypes, not penises and vaginas.

[SarahB]

59. So it's ok under the guise of "yin" and "yang"?

Gotcha! Again, people are individuals. People also are different "roles" in the same relationship depending on their mood that day, week, whatever. I still think your point is inherently sexist likely clouded by your own relationship experiences (or lack of experiences). Long term relationships are more complex than this.

[RadiationTherapy]

61. Wow. "gotcha"? meh.

People are constructs. People are nature AND nurture. People are individuals and people are predictable. I have no problem holding these opposing ideas simultaneously.

the "guise" of yin and yang?? Disguising my inherently sexist point clouded by my lack of experience?? Harsh, yet ignorant. Ironic, yet laughable. Nearly the very definition of irony. I'll not jump to any conclusions about you for it though; after all, it is just a thing you typed on a website.

I am curious to know your experiences with the yin and yang archetypes; did you study the concept long? An affinity for taoism at one point perhaps??

I didn't "getcha", and I hope that is ok.

[SarahB]

62. The whole point is we are ALL yin and yang.

Both are in each one of us. Therefore it is up to us to find the balance within to have healthy relationships with others. However, it seems as though you like to thumb your nose down to people who may very well "get" the concept, but disagree with your framework and premise.

[RadiationTherapy]

65. I do not like to "thumb my nose" at people regardless of their comprehension of a topic.

the idea of thumbing my nose at someone because they disagree or hold a different opinion than I have is distasteful. I also try not to make inferences about people or their experiences because I may disagree with or, difficult as it may be to admit to myself, not understand the subtleties of a concept being discussed.

[LeftyMom]

48. As a general rule, I think people have sex because it's fun and couple-bond because it's pleasant.

Assuming that women value sex less than men do is an antiquated and sexist idea.

[RadiationTherapy]

58. I disagree with your subject line as an oversimplification...Also

further reading of my OP would reveal that this is of archetypal relevance and not about bio-gender.

I do WISH people would approach the sex act the way you describe, but, far and away, the people I know and love do not see it so simply.

I agree unendingly with the content of your message after the subject line.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

57. I don't know, but from the look of that pic --

they have had enough "Radiation" Therapy:D

[DarkTirade]

60. Only if it's REALLY good sex.

I don't waste my love on bad sex. :evilgrin:

[RainDog]

63. okay, I tried not to post on this thread, but

I am a woman and I like sex for sex!!!!!!

honestly, do you really think that females don't like sex? or only use it as trade???? why can't females like to fuck? that doesn't mean you boink everything you see... maybe that's the diff. -- men would screw a hole in the wall if they could get away with it? is that what you mean? and I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that most men are so shallow that they cannot love someone - which is what the sentence implies. :shrug:

It's not like you have to have a megazillion partners to like sex. most of us females aren't Pamela A. and don't get married every time we change a diaphragm. -- but that doesn't mean we don't like sex. maybe it means that if females are bored, the excuse not wanting sex but the reality is that than her partner is not seducing her.

the issue, esp. for younger women, is that they have to act like they're all sugar and spice or else they'll get a bad rep. society gives so many mixed messages to women. still operate in that virgin/whore duality too often.

okay... nevermind.:beer:

[DarkTirade]

67. That's just silly... women aren't supposed to ENJOY sex.

It goes against every rule of nature!

[RadiationTherapy]

70. Well, I read your entire post

which seems more than a courtesy that you have afforded me. So to get to brass tacks...

I believe many females love sex.

I believe many women like to fuck.

I do not believe men would fuck a hole in the wall.

I do not believe men are incapable of love.

I do believe the madonna/whore polarity is an oppressive force on women and I do not approve of that.

I believe yin energy is primarily nurturing and loving and sexual.

I believe yang energy is primarily protective and providing and sexual.

I believe all humans are a blend of yin and yang.

[kwassa]

72. Hole in a wall? Isn't that known as a glory hole?

just askin'.

[RadiationTherapy]

76. an image search on google for glory hole...

confirms your suspicion.

~

Ok, ok, ok...I already KNEW what it was and did not google it.

shame.

[RainDog]

82. the problem

the problem is that you are framing reality as a duality. there is no "yin/yang" outside of a belief in it and the label itself. Where can you measure it? How is it quantifiable? Is there some blood test to reveal the amt. of yin or yang in someone?

I did read your initial post and all the others and my point was that such a frame is too simplistic for reality. It's simply a rehash of the pre-1950s stereotypes for males/females. this, in turn, was also a myth if you take into account the research behind The Way We Never Were.

my point was that your frame constrains people's views of humans. I wasn't mad. I was just frustrated (and so the beer-emoti)

Not so much for myself but for younger women who have to operate within these confines. My post was a response to the idea that wanting to be with a lot of different people is the same as wanting sex for sex and that's not so. Conversely, the idea that women only have sex because they want to be loved is also so.. old-fashioned and outdated. But that's not to say that women have a revolving bedroom door, either.

as you see on this thread, most of the women posting here agree with the way I interpreted what you said and don't agree with you. Instead, you could ask yourself this: if women had total financial security and did not want to have children - would they trade sex for anything other than sex? Sex is an expression of desire and love. The two are not mutually exclusive. I think societies can frame this issue in this way because women have not been treated as equal humans on this planet for far longer than they have had some independence... for thousands of years women weren't allowed to hold property in their names, or have custody of their own children in a divorce because they "belonged" to the father. I think the "trade sex for love" is a way of saying trade sex for security that stems from hundreds of years of historical reality. that's not the same thing as love for sex. and anyway, in older european societies where marriages were arranged for matters of state, both partners in those relationships generally had lovers. now, was that female trading sex or love, or was she having sex for sex with someone she loved?

anyway, I'll stop now with this, except to ask if it's a nurturing femaleness that would make a female kill something/someone else to protect her children? or does the yin/yang only really work if you constrain it to matters of sexual behavior?

oh well, I think I've said all I know to say about this for now.

[raccoon]

75. Yes, yes, yes, to that.

"the issue...is that they have to act like they're all sugar and spice or else they'll get a bad rep. society gives so many mixed messages to women. still operate in that virgin/whore duality too often. "

Don't know if I'd agree that's true "esp. for younger women," though.

[Withywindle]

66. Gross and oversimplified.

As a yang-ish woman attracted mostly to yin-ish men (but I like fellow yang-ish women as partners too, and I enjoy male/male smut most of all) such simplistic associations of emotions and chemistry with bio-gender just don't reflect any reality I've ever lived in. Or would want to.

[RadiationTherapy]

71. As I have mentioned.

This is not about bio-gender.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. i think the concept is sexist bullshit. some men/women like sex independent of romantic feelings

some men/women need to have romantic feelings for sex.

neither of this has to do with being nurturing. i am extremely nurturing but find NO need to justify my fucking.

[DarkTirade]

77. And then some just enjoy sex more when there's romantic attachment. :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

78. that too.

[RadiationTherapy]

79. It is sexist BS when applied to men and women. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

80. well in terms of energy too i think its bullshit. i dont think nurturing is at all related to sex

i can be a great mother and a slut. thats what i meant.

[RadiationTherapy]

81. I agree. I would also imagine that you are likely very balanced in

yin and yang energies.

I am a very yin man and I, despite trying as peer pressure once moved me to, was never good at multiple partners or casual sex. I wanted to be a slut, but it was not my nature. Is that because of my dominant yin nature? I think so; but archetypes and astrology are like genetics, they are only part of the picture. Environment and upbringing always plays a part our makeups.