Who is the best american classical composer?

[noonwitch]

Leonard Bernstein (West Side Story, Candide)

Aaron Copeland (Rodeo, Fanfare for the Common Man)

George Gershwin (Rhapsody in Blue, Porgy and Bess)

John Philip Sousa (Stars and Stripes Forever)

Vaugn Williams (A Lark Ascending)

Other?


My pick is Gershwin. Rhapsody in Blue is an amazing symphonic poem that celebrates the energy and culture of our nation. Porgy and Bess is probably the only popular opera composed by americans.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Vaughan Williams? He's British, isn't he?

At least, I've always thought/assumed he was from England.

[regnaD kciN]

78. He most certainly is!

How anyone would think of Ralph (pronounced "Rafe") Vaughan Williams as anything other than British is beyond me. Why, even though he was agnostic, he composed a number of Anglican hymns, because it was his duty to show his patriotism by supporting his country's official Church.

[hatrack]

3. Charles Ives

Oh, btw, Ralph Vaughan Williams was a Brit!

[noonwitch]

9. I don't know why I thought he was an american?

I went to a DSO concert where they performed "A Lark Ascending" and I must have misread the program.

[XNASA]

21. Ives, for sure.

Nothing quite so American as Ives.

[tsakshaug]

4. phillip glass

I still have that part of einstein on the beach echoing in my head

one,one,one,one,two,two,two,two,two,three,three,three,three,one,one,one.....

[ProfessorGAC]

47. Oooh! I Love That Piece

I am a big fan of Glass. Also, really like John Cage. I'm just weird enough to find that "pushing the envelope" stuff more intriguing than "serious" music.
The Professor

[Snow]

58. "Facades" - saxophone and, ummmmm,

something else. And his first violin concerto, with Bobby MacDuffy playing....

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Frank Zappa - quintessentially American, so IMO, best American composer

Truly brought the culture of America into the world of serious music, and also brough the world of serious music into the world of American culture, of all sorts. Like, quoting "The Rite of Spring" in the middle of "Ship Arriving Too Late to Save A Drowning Witch."

I will agree with you on Copeland, also very American. And Gershwin, and the other's suggestion of Barber.

But I would also add: Steve Reich, George Crumb, Glass, Riley, Meredith Monk, and Hovhannes, and let us never forget Charles Ives, and I'll mention George Crumb again, too.

on edit: I'm adding Partch to this list, too, per another post's reminding me of him.

Sousa can go suck on a tailpipe and choke to death for all I care. yuck.

[Drifter]

48. Lets be Frank ...

Zappa that is.

Truly remarkable musician/composer.
The more you learn about him, the more you learn that there is more to learn about him.

He did an absolutely staggering amount of work in his life time. Over 70 albums (all re-released on CD), half a dozen movies, a few books, a broadway play (not sure if that actually ever happened), and don't forget touring.

We miss you Frank.

the modern Day Composer refuses to die - Varese - Zappa

Cheers
Drifter

[AnnabelLee]

6. I'm partial to Howard Hanson myself n/t

[Character Assassin]

7. Charles Ives, Steve Reich

[ThorsteinVeblen]

15. I don't know about Steve Reich

I much prefer John Adams to any of the first generation minimalists.

[Rabrrrrrr]

19. John Adams?

Nnnnnggggggg...... I grow ever more and more unimpressed with that guy.

love his early stuff - Nixon in China was pretty cool, and some other pieces I have the names of whch I do not remember - but his recent stuff? It's all been leaving me cold for like ten years or more, and just gets worse.

he's become like the John Williams or Boston Pops of minimalism, IMO.

[Character Assassin]

69. He is, in my opinion, the greatest minimalist. Music for 18 Musicians

Is the single greatest work of the latter part of the 20th century.

[stopbush]

8. RVW was British

not American (ie: Ralph Vaughan Williams).

Of your list, I'd vote for Sousa as his compositions really define an "American" sound, followed by Gershwin whose "American" music travels through the French Ravel school before colliding with American nativism.

Copland I can't really stomach. American music for repigs.

In 50 years, Bernstein will be remembered for writing West Side Story and for being a pretty interesting conductor.

Don't forget Irving Berlin, Cole Porter and the other great B'way composers (including imported guys like Korngold). Their contribution to American music and the "American" idiom makes the "classical" dudes pale in comparison.

[hatrack]

35. Actually, Copland's got some pretty good stuff

Check out the Piano Variations - Hea-vy!!!

[Warpy]

38. Music for repigs?

He wrote "Fanfare for the Common Man," not "Fanfare for the Plutocrat."

He wrote "Appalachian Spring," not "Park Avenue Social Season."

Of course, the longer I live, the less use I have for the bombastic symphonic composers and the more use I have for Satie (French, I know).

[stopbush]

51. When I opined that Copland wrote "music for "repigs"

I was opining that he wrote the kind of Americana that repigs like. That includes Fanfare for the Common Man, the embarrassing Lincoln Portrait, Rodeo and other stuff that seems to be making it into more and more TV commercials. His serial music, atonal music and big form stuff (symphonies, concerti) remain unknown by most 'Murkins. Those who don't know Harry Partch from Adam can whistle Rodeo thanks to those beef commercials.

Now, Ives - there's a UNIQUE American voice. I'd love to attend a July 4th concert that featured Three Places in New England or General William Booth Enters Into Heaven or The Circus Band. But, N-O-O-O! We get that crappy FFTCM every single time! Here in Vegas, we had to suffer through FFTCM AND an abridged Lincoln Portrait on the 4th (the concert ended with the full 1812 and a medley of Sousa. Fun stuff!).

BTW - I played Rodeo (oboe) and sang in Las Agaches (sp?) under Copland back in 76 or 77. I wish I could say it was a great experience, but he was on one of those college circuit tours (different day, different college) and was so wiped out by the travel that he basically scowled his way through the rehearsal. He did manage to get it up for the show later that night and injected a little bit of life into the proceedings. But overall, he offered no insights into playing his music beyond those that our staff conductor had conveyed beforehand.

[regnaD kciN]

79. Hard to believe that one...

...for one thing, Copland was gay. For another, he was a leftist.

[JVS]

10. These aren't even classical composers for the most part

Gershwin, and Bernstein did show tunes. Sousa did marches. Copeland was rather modern. Vaughn Williams I don't remember much of, but I played some of his stuff in orchestra so I'd pick him, but he's English. Copeland by default.

On edit: I guess that the best classical music composed in the US would be Dvorak's new world symphony. But he was Czech.

[curse10]

26. Listen to Bernstein's symphonies or the Chichester Psalms

Bernstein wasn't all about show tunes.

[bif]

11. Alan Hovaness

I'll bet no one here has heard of him. He wrote tons of symphonies. He was Armenian/American and wrote beautiful music that incorporated folk melodies from his parerent's homeland. Very romantic, exciting music. Only a couple of his symphonies are ever performed and I think only a couple are out on CD. Worth looking into.

[Snow]

59. Well, I'm from Seattle, and have heard of him - and heard him

I was in Seattle when Mt St. Helens blew - Hohvaness got it right!
But some of his stop seems repetitive, especially the pastorales.

[carpetbagger]

74. He's certainly the best recent one. I've got about 20 CDs of his.

Great stuff. It sounds alike for a little while, but over time they sound less alike than most classical composers.

[bif]

76. I bought a bunch of his symphonies

on LP many moons ago. Are they on CD now?

[Rabrrrrrr]

77. His music is great

I especially love, can't remember the name exactly, but the symphony with the whales. Dammit, I can't remember the name. It's right on the tip of my tongue... all I can think is "Whales Weep Not" but that's DH Lawrence.

Oh, just got it - I think it's called "And God Created the Whales"

beautiful.

The CD I have of that piece has another piece, a piano concerto, with that awesome piano guy playing - the guy that does jazz and classical, whose name escapes me. Can't think of his name...black guy...phenomenal pianist...

[ThorsteinVeblen]

12. Vaughn Williams is British

1.) John Adams
2.) Charles Ives, Aaron Copeland
3.) Gershwin

[roughsatori]

13. Adams and Ives

A commentator once said about "Porgy and Bess"; "Blacks won't go see it because it is by a White man; and whites won't go see it because it is about Black people." Though the music is known and recordings of songs have sold, it has had a spotty production record compared to other operas.

I did like "Einstein on the Beach" by Glass when it came out.

[curse10]

14. None of the above?

American composers are generally icky.

And Vaughan Williams is British.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

16. "American composers are generally icky."

And Europeans are better?

Europe hasn't contributed anything worthwhile to the cannon since Stravinsky.

[Rabrrrrrr]

23. And Stravinsky wasn't even from Europe!

But from Russia!

But you are fairly correct - not much interesting stuff coming from Europe since Ravel, Debussy, Dvorak, etc.

Russians have been great.

Even Japan and China/Taiwan have knocked some good people into the world of music.

But no, Europe seems to be slipping some gears.

[roughsatori]

27. Debussy's Etudes are astounding still

[curse10]

36. Well, let's see

There's:

Milhaud and anyone else from "Les Six"--
Shostakovitch
Berg
Vaughan Williams
Bartok
Bloch
Rebecca Clarke
Martinu
Hindemith
Respighi
Prokofiev
Kodaly
Villa-Lobos
Schoenberg
Scriabin
Saint-Saens


And that's just what I recall from early 20th century. When we actually get into the "modern" era (post-1950s) the list grows.

[rstarobi]

37. European composers

Try Poul Ruders, for an interesting contemporary composer - there's a real active composition scene in Denmark right now. His most high-profile work is his Opera adaptation of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale" that was just given its American premiere in Minnesota. It was truly chilling, especially in the current political environment to hear his music, paired with that libretto.

[roughsatori]

25. Not that I expect you to sound like a musicologist-but "icky"?

[curse10]

41. Well, considering that my bachelors is in musicology...

it's the best word I can come up with that I think describes the abomination of american composers.


I got a lot of flack in the department for despising American composers but I stand by my opinion. The best of them is probably Bernstein, but, he was a better conductor than composer.

[roughsatori]

43. Now you got me really curious

Could you be specific about what facets of American composition you dislike so? I am not asking this as a challenge, and I'm not looking for an argument. I love music and enjoy when others have different opinions than me; unlike when the topic is political and I get angry over disagreements.

[curse10]

56. I've always found

American composers to be cheap imitations of their european counterparts.

In the 18th century there was an American composer (which I've managed to forget the name of, and all my musicology books are in storage) that we were forced to study. It was infantile music. Literally a 100 years behind what was going on in Europe. And yet I was expected to take his music seriously?

I think American music is simple. It's not very complex. Take Copland. He doesn't really stretch the boundaries of music. I think he's boring. He uses fairly simple chord structures (open fifths isn't some sort of musical revelation we should be heralding).

I once sat through a Copland opera (The Heartland). It was the worst musical experience of my life.

And, from a playing stand point, American music is just not fun to play. (I play the viola). I've played numerous pieces by Copland, Bernstein, Cage, and others and it just isn't worthwhile.

Now, I have played orchestral pieces by Ellington and Porter and the likes, but that's a different sort of music. Jazz is different. I'm talking "classical" here.

Most music scholars would disagree with me, but, again, it's my own opinion. And, really, it's more of a gut reaction against it.

[roughsatori]

66. Thanks for taking the time for that thoughtful replay

I think that many times when discussing "serious" art we tend to use the words and theories to justify our gut instincts. I think the sort of clunky, rough-hewn quality of much American music appeals to me on a gut level. But on an ear level, I tend toward Schoenberg, Beethoven, Debussy, Scriaban, and Medieval Chanson.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

17. Anybody into Harry Partch?

[roughsatori]

22. I just came back to add Partch and Henry Cowell

I love them both. Gershwin was a student of Cowell as was Harrison.

[Rabrrrrrr]

34. Went to a fascinating demonstration at MSM

by one of Partch's students, the one who is now caretaker of the instruments. He talked a lot about and demonstrated Partch's tuning, and gave examples of all the instruments, and then performed a couple pieces with the ensemble.

It was wonderful!! I came across Partch years ago when my library was selling most of their classical vinyal album selections for a quarter apiece - I bought about 300 hundred of them, most of them modern stuff, and quite a few on the CRC (I think?) label. One of those albums was done by Partch himself. Wow!

[Twenty3]

18. Combine them all and you get...

... Keith Emerson ...
who deserves at least (or at most) an E for Effort

Edit to add: Not American. Just "composed" American.

[Loonman]

20. Copland

nt

[roughsatori]

28. The movie with Stalone?

Just kidding.

[Loonman]

52. LOL

:)

[mitchum]

24. Fistfight between George Gershwin and Terry Riley

[rstarobi]

29. George Crumb and Elliott Carter

n/t

[roughsatori]

30. Welcome to DU rstarbi!!!

[rstarobi]

32. Thanks!

Been lurking for a month or two, and I finally got around to posting on something.

I'm a huge fan of Crumb's music; it speaks to the America of the 60's, with its interest in influences from across the globe and back through time. That, and it's damned listenable.

Carter I just threw out there because I didn't see his name; his music isn't my absolute favorite, but he's been a great name in American composition for 95 years or so now, and still going.

(disclaimer: I work for a Classical record label that puts out music of George Crumb and Elliott Carter)

Lou Harrison is pretty incredible too.

[roughsatori]

42. I am a Crumb fan too

When ever I am asked to list a favorite composer, painter, or poet I go crazy because I appreciate so much and quite a variety. I once filled out an application for a Classical Music store in NYC just to see if I would pass the test they had potential employees take.

[On the Road]

31. Have to Vote for Aaron Copeland

[SOteric]

33. Copeland

[stopbush]

46. What's with misspelling Copland?

There's no "E" in Copland.

Sheesh.

[Gato Moteado]

39. duke ellington!

duke ellington
charles mingus
scott joplin
fats waller

on edit: oops, i just noticed it says classical composer. never mind.

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. Now you've left the genre under consideration

Though i do not dispute their compositional abilities.

on edit: I see that you noticed your error. I will point another for you: you did not include Sun Ra. :-)

[TrogL]

44. American "classical" composers a contradiction in terms

The Classical period is from 1750 to 1820. I am not aware of any well-known American composers writing in this time period.

[TreasonousBastard]

45. If you can call Sousa classical, then some of us can

call Duke Ellington classical, too.

He was classic, man. Like a lotta the greats, he didn't go to the right schools and was the wrong color at the wrong time, but he was born with the gift.

And you don't define "Best."

Gershwin and Ellington never got the respect of the white tie crowd, but what the hell, Bing never let Bubbles sing at the Met because she had the nerve to go on Major Bowes and Ed Sullivan. Now, Bing's dead, and screw his buddies, and Bubbles ends up running the whole show. Sweet revenge there, and it's time to show some respect where respect is due.

So, yer Ives and Copeland may be jeenyuses, but Bernstein, Gershwin, and Ellington got some amazing music out to the people, which is what counts, isn't it? Shit, Mozart wrote show tunes and dance music when there was a buck in it.

And, btw, who are those two or three guys doing all that movie work for the last 50 years or so? Lotta good stuff there.

[stopbush]

53. Why isn't Sousa Classical?

Maybe you're not aware of his full output which includes operettas, orchestral suites, songs, waltzes, and a symphonic poem. He composed:

• 136 marches include "Semper Fidelis," "The Washington Post," "El Capitan," "Thunderer," "The High School Cadets," "Liberty Bell," "Manhattan Beach," "Hands Across the Sea," and "The Stars and Stripes Forever." Of course, this is the Sousa output that everyone knows and loves.

• many operettas include The Smugglers and El Capitan. Sousa was one of the first Americans to write operettas and usually wrote both the music and his own libretti.

Did you know that Sousa led the US Marine Band for over a decade and later served as director of the US Navy Band; that he wrote five novels and an autobiography (Marching Along); that he played in an orchestra under Jacques Offenbach?

I happen to love Ellington, but Sousa's "classical" output dwarfs that of the Duke. We shouldn't hold it against Sousa that the general public is unaware of his ouevre beyond The Stars and Stripes Forever.

[Snow]

57. Hey musicologists!

Wasn't the Duke a student of a student of Dvorak? or Holst?

[Gato Moteado]

60. i wouldn't doubt it.....

one of mingus' biggest influences (other than duke) was bartok.

[Snow]

67. *snort!* Some of those movie composers really rip off - sorry -

are "inspired by" other composers. Listen to a certain set of compositions providing background for a certain spacey series by a certain guy from Boston, then go listen to: Mahler's 2nd & 3rd symphonies, Richard Strauss esp "Til Eulenspiegel", Stravinsky esp "Rite of Spring" & "Firebird".......

[FuriousMNDem]

49. I like Copland.

By the way, it's C-O-P-L-A-N-D, not C-O-P-E-L-A-N-D.

[DrBB]

50. Ives, Copeland for me

... though I'm a Zappa fan since Freak Out.

Soft spot for Copeland--we have the same birthday. But really he defined the "American sound" more than Ives did--Ives had greater originality and daring in many ways, but I don't think he was as immediately or broadly influential. Though I love ives.

Hey, know what's great about Ives? His marginalia--"Hearst is a swill-brained, pansy-assed cockroach!" is one of my faves.

[immoderate]

54. It's the Duke

Ellington is probably the most prolific, and IMHO the best. His ability to write for the particular talents of musicians, and make the orchestra his instrument is also unique.

--IMM

[Gato Moteado]

62. hey, if people can include zappa....

...then including duke sure seems fair.

ellington is my favorite american composer of any genre.

[Rabrrrrrr]

72. But Zappa WAS a serious classical-style composer

Writing many things for orchestra and "serous" ensembles, bnesides rock; and even his rock is really "classical".

Not to say Duke wasn't a serious composer - obviously he was, and a damn good one, too - but Zappa was, at heart, in his own words, a composer, and did the rock music in order to support his need for writing "serious" music.

[OneBlueSky]

63. I agree, but don't forget Billy Strayhorn . . .

Duke's collaborator for many years, who wrote or co-wrote many Ellington classics . . .

[Betty]

55. Sam Barber and Frank Zappa

love them both

[Snow]

61. Louis Marie Gottschalk, for heavens' sake!

or even Scott Joplin for "Tremonisha".
and Rachmaninoff, like Dvorak, did a lot of composing while living in America....course, Beverly Hills isn't much like Iowa or Minnesota....

[grasswire]

64. damn, you just beat me

I just read the line about Porgy and Bess being the only popular opera written by an American and immediately thought of Joplin.

The "Slow Drag" from Tremonisha is about as fine a piece of music as you'll find.

In fact, Joplin's rags have always been compared to the European waltzes as genius in genre. Joseph Lamb would be highly favored, too. "American Beauty" is just stunning.

[grasswire]

65. jazz as classical music

One of my most beloved CDs is by a Connecticut group titled "Elite Syncopations" -- classically trained musicians-in-residence from Wesleyan University in Middletown who cross over between classical and jazz/ragtime. This CD is exquisite. Such songs as Pagan Love Song, Ellington's "The Mooch", Zez Confrey's "Nickle in the Slot", Jelly Roll Morton's "Sidewalk Blues" and "Billy Goat Stomp", Joplin's "Bethena" and "Solace" and "Wall Street Rag" are seamless and stunning.

Their classical group is called "New World Consort" out of Berlin CT.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

68. Don't overlook Corrigliano...

Love his Red Violin Suite....

Duke Ellington
Ellen Zwilich
Aaron Jay Kernis (Listen to his Air for violin and orchestra!!!)
Ulysses Kay

[belab13]

70. Ives is the king

Ellington, Gershwin, Copeland , Scott Joplin, all deserve honorable mention.

[grasswire]

71. How about W.C. Handy?

Memphis Blues is a mighty piece of work when played by an orchestra.

[Rabrrrrrr]

73. Hey - I walk on W.C. Handy Way on my way to work each morning,

over by - if memory serves, I think it's like 51st or 52nd, between 6th and 5th avenue. I could be off by a block or two in the east-west direction.

(this is NYC, by the way)

[rstarobi]

75. Earlier composers

What do people think of Edward MacDowell? Or William Grant Still? American composition didn't start with Ives.

[regnaD kciN]

80. Strange that no one's mentioned...

...Virgil Thomson, either.

Or Walter Piston.

[VOX]

81. Copeland, Gershwin, Ives, Scott Joplin...