So how does Patti Smith get in the Rock Hall while ELP, The Moody Blues and Yes

[WCGreen]

do not.

And what about Jethro Tull and King Crimson and Roxy Music.

These artists brought a musical style and that was unique and influential to Rock by experimenting with electronic music infused with classical undertones.

Rock grew up with the help of these bands.

Kieth Emerson, Eno, Steve Howe, Ian Anderson, Robert Fripp and Brian Ferry were all tops in their musical field

Patti Smith was a big influence on Punk, I know this, but one could say that Chrissie Hynde had much more lasting and commercial influence.

The sheer output of the above mentioned bands and the fact that they remained true to themselves for decades while still producing great music should count for something.

I mean, Dion is in the Rock Hall and Yes isn't...

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Is it less about the music...

And more about the politics behind the music?

:shrug:

[WCGreen]

4. Could very well be...

The people who are most influential in the Rock Hall are New York centric.

[Ken Burch]

2. Patti Smith was also a brilliant lyricist.

And, in any case, this all gets subjective.

They don't have War in their either, and to my mind, that group had the most original sound of the early Seventies, with its "Soul meets Reggae meets East L.A." groove.

[WCGreen]

3. But her out put leaves something to be desired....

I think it was her personality more than her talent that propelled her to fame. And of course, that is a lot of what Punk is all about, personality.

It is subjective but none of the prog rock bands beside Pink Floyd are in the Hall and that speaks volumes...

[Ken Burch]

10. Perhaps people has issues with the personalities of the prog rock groups.

While there is a lot in prog rock that I admire(especially in the early period of it, before it got slick and commercial)
the emergence of punk was, in significant measure, a reaction against what was seen as the pomposity and grandiosity of prog rock.

It could also just be that Ian Anderson killed Jann Wenner's dog while the guys from Yes and Pink Floyd held it down, or something like that.

I think you'll see a lot of the prog rock groups get in in the next few years.

And if they don't, don't take it personally.

A lot of "Halls of Fame" are unfair in their selection processes. It's just the way of such institutions, since the selection committees have agendas and biases and operate outside of the worlds of transparency and openness(sort of like the National Security State, if you think about it.)

Maybe Julian Assange will explain the prog rock exclusions in the NEXT round of Wikileaks.

[MicaelS]

55. I always loved Prog Rock especially Renaissance,

and hated Punk.

[blondeatlast]

39. Amen to that, "War" is superb; even my 14 year old loves them. nt

[old mark]

63. Brian Ferry of Roxy Music is also a great lyricist...and I agree with you about War...

it seems to be a lot of publicity/popularity and not so much about real originality and creativity... Look at Rolling Stone's Top 100 of anything - you find some that certainly belong, and some that certainly do not.

mark

[Tikki]

5. I am curious which of the late 70's~early 80's Los Angeles*..

punk/pop/new wave bands is going to make it into the r&rhof first.

And it truly is political and I'm betting Red Hot Chili Peppers*..
good band but not my first or even second choice.

Tikki

[thirtiesgirl]

16. We know, without a doubt,

the Germs will never make it. ...Sigh.

I can hope for X. Maybe.

[Tikki]

19. That would be the correct choice....

:hi:
X influenced so many and moved many different genres forward.
First time we saw the RHCP was with X in Pasadena...early 80's, we say.

Like you said, Maybe...hoping so.

The Tikkis

[blondeatlast]

41. I love X, but most doubtful. I'm shocked by how few people know them

outside of the "Major League" sountrack.

[Tikki]

51. Again, an extremely influential band...In response to Black Flag

Thing about most of L A's best...they couldn't give a shit about the r&rhof.


Tikki

[DBoon]

44. Black Flag too?

Just through the force of Henry Rollins' personality

[Withywindle]

22. X would be my first choice.

I'm betting that ain't gonna happen, though.

[HughBeaumont]

6. How the shit are Madonna & John MellenCougar Camp in the R+R HOF?

Progressive rock hatred among scene critics is as common as breathing.

[WCGreen]

9. Yea, that's true....

But Yes really belongs...

[Gato Moteado]

7. Chicago is not in the Rock HOF

The Rock Hall of Fame is a joke.

[thirtiesgirl]

17. And Chicago ISN'T?!?

:evilgrin:

[B3Nut]

50. Before they went all Steven Foster poppy, no they weren't

Especially when Terry Kath was still alive. They *were* a band that could turn goat piss into gasoline. Incredible horn arranging and a fire-breathing horn line.

TP

[underpants]

8. She is in NYC the others aren't

she probably saw a lot of voters doing blow at the CGBG shithole bathroom back in the day

plus she is married to John McEnroe who is another NYC icon

[Jean Louise Finch]

12. Patti Smith is not married to John McEnroe

Patty Smyth is married to John McEnroe - very different from Patti Smith!

[underpants]

13. Okay my bad

:spank:

[pitohui]

11. do you have ears in your skull?

elp, moody blues, yes were unbearable overblown corny crap who were way overplayed at the time, they made way too much money and stole way too much airtime in proportion to their talent (which was mainly a talent for blowing things out of proportion, they were just...tacky, too much)

smith cut thru the crap, NEVER got played on the radio, and yet everyone knew who she was, everyone passed the music from hand to hand BECAUSE IT MEANT SOMETHING (and no i don't live in new york, never have, i lived in the south)

ELP, moody blues, yes were commercial crap...she was the real thing...they got the money, let her have the recognition she DESERVES

next question?

frankly if i never hear ELP again...twill be too soon!

[WCGreen]

23. Everyone knew her because Gilda Radner lampooned the shit

out of her on Saturday Night Live...

[quickesst]

14. It's simply because...

...they do not appreciate ground-breaking music, and anyone who cannot appreciate their music has no ear for it in the first place. Patti Smith is a dime a dozen singer, and although good does not compare with the musical genius of the Moody Blues or Yes. These bands integrated genius, classical, and rock into a revolution. Would be a shame were they not inducted into the hall of fame, but then, not being inducted yet, many fans would probably urge them to give the hall the finger, and say "STICK IT UP YOUR ASS" It would make me a greater(if that's possible) fan of these groundbreaking bands. Thanks.
quickesst

[thirtiesgirl]

15. Because Yes and ELP SUCK.

Duh.

Jethro Tull is just ridiculous and were a cartoon of themselves from the first album.

Roxy Music and King Crimson, not so much. But the rest of them... bah! :grr:

[rbnyc]

35. LOL

I'm pretty much with you on this.

[DainBramaged]

47. Sure, I'm selling clues want to buy one?

[Bryan]

18. I submit that you folks are taking the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame too seriously

The museum is very nice, but the concept of a Hall of Fame lends itself better to fields with mathematically quantifiable achievements like baseball, and even then countless fans are infuriated by it. To apply it to a more numinous field like popular music causes endless pointless rancor, and I refuse to be sucked in by it.

[dembotoz]

25. a tourist trap

its in cleveland right????
lord knows they need something.
what is the bfd??????
there are hall of fames all over-for anything.
if you find a niche? create you own.
waterpark hall of fame
pez dispenser hall of fame.

what a hall of fame means is you are past your prime and you used to be better.

[begin_within]

20. Because Patti Smith is just plain irritating...

...and that's an easy ticket to the Hall of Fame. The prog-rock and art-rock bands you list are far more deserving, and I would put ALL of them in the Hall of Fame, but they just aren't irritating enough to make it.

[avaistheone1]

65. Agreed on all counts.

[jobycom]

21. I think they should dump the current method and install a playoff system.

Barehand cage matches would be the best method, although I think musicians should be allowed to use their instruments as weapons. That puts vocalists at a disadvantage, but that's only fair, considering how much attention vocalists get over other band members anyway.

Anyway, this method would undoubtedly favor newer bands at the expense of pre-70s bands, but face it, if they haven't made it in by now, that's their fault. Except Jethro Tull, but I suspect they could handle most younger bands, even with a flute as a weapon.

Take opinion out of the equation, and just let the ax guitars wail away. That's the only fair way, and the only way to stop all the whining about it.

And for the record, I'm quite sure I've willingly listened to Patti Smith in the past year, and if I've listened to more than five seconds of ELP or Yes in that time, it was only because I was dozing and didn't feel like reaching the button. I like them both, but I'll just have to take your word for it that they are superior musical forces. You couldn't tell it by listening to them. Elevators fall asleep when "Lucky Man" comes on.

[Withywindle]

24. Well, speaking as someone who loves Patti Smith and finds Yes unlistenable

to the point where I always flip the radio off whenever Jon Anderson's nails-on-blackboard squeak starts...oh god, most annoying voice ever.


the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has NEVER been about quality. It's always been about the Rolling Stone weaklings playing catchup, and sucking up to the artists who they think are hip...but always way too late.

I mean, I searched their website and found that the MC5, Captain Beefheart, Fairport Convention OR Richard Thompson, Deep Purple, Television, Neu!, Brian Eno, the Fall, Joy Division, Joan Jett, Motorhead, and Peter Gabriel are NOT inductees; yet the Eagles, James Taylor, and Madonna ARE. In my opinion, that makes it pretty clear that they are in no way to be taken seriously about what rock'n'roll is and isn't.

[Iggo]

33. This.

:applause:

[dawg]

36. You like some awesome music, Withy ...

but I love Yes. So :P

[GReedDiamond]

42. Happy New Year Withywindle...

...and long live Patti Smith.

The premise of the OP is fucking stupid.

I can like Patti Smith, and at the same time, the "prog rockers," if I wanna. Especially Eno and King Crimson/Fripp.

The fact that Patti is an icon for a genre that the OP cannot comprehend, is not necessarily his fault.

The fact that he tries to diminish the achievements of Patti Smith, because of his bizarre musical bias, is pathetic.

Love your avatar.

[LynneSin]

26. The greatest living drummer is NOT in the Rock & Roll HOF - I say this is an OUTRAGE

[dawg]

27. That doesn't look like a picture of Meg White!

.... or Bill Bruford, for that matter.

[LynneSin]

28. You are offically a LOSER in my book!

( :pals: )

And Meg White? Her set consists of 3 pieces, that was the size of the drumkit Neil got when he was an infant.

[dawg]

31. She's so cute though.

Bruford's cute too - all that curly hair.

[dawg]

29. I'm an unabashed prog nerd.

I understand that the genre isn't for everyone, but there's no denying the enduring influence some of these guys had.

Punk is great too. Like prog, it isn't for everyone.

Lots of the hate that gets thrown at the prog bands these days is undeserved.

As if the Sex Pistols and the "the only band that matters" *weren't* pretentious.


Edited to add: I intended to post this to the OP. How the hell did I reply it to my own post? I guess I'm slipping more than usual today. :crazy:

[Joe Fields]

49. Carl Palmer is much much better.

[Monk06]

57. Besides being an Ayn Rand fan does Peart have to play every damn noisemaker ever made ?

Oh I forgot he's not a drummer. He's a percussionist.

I liked his Buddy Rich tribute though

[jobycom]

59. More importantly, does he understand that musicality is more than furious stroking?

Yeah, double entendre intended. That's my whole thing with Rush. They don't play to sound good, they play to sound cool. Their lyrics, their combinations of noises, their pale imitations of Led Zepplin, are all meant to make people go "gnarly, dude," instead of meant to create a musical or artistic expression. That's why they always come across as flabby and unfulfilling. They are like indie films that try too hard to not be mainstream films and not hard enough to just be a movie. They come off as cutsie and trendy, but not as complete or significant.

I can listen to some untalented garage band trying furiously to learn their instruments while screaching out of tune music and lyrics that they truly feel means something (didn't mean to describe the Clash, but oh well) over a group trained to reproduce all the elements of music accurately but who still have no concept of what those music and lyrics are supposed to do.

[Iggo]

30. R&RHOF is a joke.

Has been for a long time...maybe the entire time...but definitely for a long time.

[LynneSin]

32. It's the "People who sold alot of crappy albums" Hall of Fame

since alot of talented groups are not in there because Jann Wenner doesn't like Prog Rock.

[dawg]

34. Oh the irony.

I first got into Yes because I read about them in the old Rolling Stone Album Review book in my local library when I was in high school. All their main sequence albums got 4 and 5 star reviews, and the write ups were very complimentary as well. From what I understand, this is very much in line with how the albums were reviewed in Rolling Stone magazine when they were released.

The downgrading of Yes, and other prog acts, was an after-the-fact thing. Revisionist history.

[Beaverhausen]

37. Jann Wenner hates Prog and he has a lot of influence on who is chosen for the RRHOF

[MicaelS]

56. Then fuck Jann Wenner n/t

[GReedDiamond]

38. Patti Smith, Live on Sirius/XM is, Dec 31, now at this moment...

...is the best thing I've heard, almost ever.

Too bad you don't get her.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

40. Simple. Patti is a "critics' darling." ELP, The Moody Blues and Yes are not.

There are just artists who get a free pass from critics starting on Day 1 of their careers, and Patti's one of them.

I see her the way the late, great Gilda Radner saw her, via her "Candy Slice" parody on the original SNL. That's not to say she's lacking in quality material...but she's not what the critics say she is, either.

I'm a BIG prog fan...I have 1634 prog tracks loaded into iTunes, including Crimson / Yes / Genesis / Roxy and the "second wave" of prog like Marillion, Flower Kings, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater...

...these bands are never gonna get a fraction of the love their fans give from the damned critics. That's just the way that particular loaf gets sliced.

:toast:

[last_texas_dem]

43. The clout of music critics on the selection committee.

[DBoon]

45. Yes was my favorite band in high school

I smoked an awful lot of pot back then

[DainBramaged]

46. They live in our hearts

fuck the RRHF

[Joe Fields]

48. Simply put, the R&RHOF doesn't know jack shit about great music.

The HOF has been a farce from the very start. Patti Smith was certainly nothing special.

[B3Nut]

52. Most "rock critics" are allergic to truly great musicianship

and often hold anything with any emphasis on keyboards in disdain. Perhaps they're frustrated musicians who could never learn more than three chords on their ratty Harmony electrics as kids? :D

Whether or not Mr. Wenner likes prog is irrelevant; one cannot dismiss or ignore the influence of prog musicians on the evolution and history of rock music and claim to be any sort of authority on the same. Until Mr. Wenner puts aside his petulant biases and at least attempts to lend an air of objectivity, his "Hall of Fame" will remain nothing more than a farcical shrine to commercialism and three-chord simplicity.

Prog was a (largely successful, in fact) serious attempt to elevate rock'n'roll to a serious level of art music, incorporating a wide range of influences and trying to push the envelope and think outside the box. This goes over a lot of critics' heads, apparently...

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[A Simple Game]

53. This goes over a lot of critics' heads, apparently...

Exactly, they can't understand the complexity.

[kwassa]

54. The Moody Blues have bored me for 40 years

Pink Floyd has put me to sleep for the same length of time.

You are arguing over subjective taste for a field of music that really has no definition anymore.

Real rock wasn't meant to be either classic or in halls of fame, in terms of original attitude.

Rock has become a highly flexible category that has all kinds of outside influences in it from many different genres of music. The definition has been so stretched as to be almost meaningless.

[Richard Steele]

58. Patti Smith displayed genuine talent.. The Moody Blues and YES sucked ass.

Not even INTELLIGENT ass- they sucked the most MEDIOCRE ass
available to them at the time.

The Moody Blues sucked ass gently for decades, YES sucked really HARD
for a few months in 1982.

[Joe Fields]

60. So, what talent did Patti Smith exactly have?

Her lyrics were not even close to being on a par with Joni Mitchell.
Could she play keyboard like Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson?
Could she play guitar as proficiently as Steve Howe, or even Greg Lake?
Was she a groundbreaking musician, on the level with Keith Emerson?

The truth is that Patti Smith, although she did display marginal talent, did not possess the wherewithal that it takes to become inducted to ANY hall of fame.

[Richard Steele]

61. The fact that you need to ask is proof positive that you will NEVER know..

Rick Wakeman. :rofl:

[Joe Fields]

62. I see you set your bar extremely low.

It's not as though I know nothing of her. Frankly she bores me to tears.

[Beaverhausen]

64. Sorry if some of us like the music we listen to to be played by actual musicians

I like Patti Smith, but the talent and skill of the musicians in bands like Yes is what I love about them.

Anyone who likes Radiohead should know they were greatly influenced by Yes.

It's all subjective, but Prog should be represented at the RRHOF.