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Do Not Believe American Economists by Robert B. Gordon, Sc. D.

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ozymandius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-08-04 07:04 AM
Original message
Do Not Believe American Economists by Robert B. Gordon, Sc. D.
They Haven't Got a Clue About the Economy

have no special reason to jump on one of our learned professions except they have been so hide-bound, narrow minded and conceited as to make a colossal mistake in (a) predicting a mild recession in 2001 and a slow recovery in 2003 and (b) totally missing the fact that we are moving slowly and steadily and helplessly into our Second Great Depression in less than 80 years. And, Horror of Horrors, this is happening despite the fact that this once distinguished profession has been telling our country and its leaders for decades that another Depression was impossible with their current bag of tools to prevent it. The very sad reality is that they have no tools to prevent it, they have no tools to predict it is coming, and once here, they have no golden wand to sweep it away.

The Economics profession is so infatuated with its own techniques and group of Nobel laureate experts that they have literally made no progress since Yale's famous economics professor Irving Fisher made his great prediction of an unending period of prosperity just before the 1929 market crash and its ensuing Depression 1.

-cut-

THREE CENTURIES OF ELLIOTT WAVES

Some talented successors to Ralph Elliott have painstakingly carried the long wave formations back to the start of American stock prices in 1785 and then, using British stock prices, have gone back to the early 1700s with great success. So we now know that the huge stock mania in London between 1720 and 1722, known as the South Sea Bubble, was the starting Wave I of a Grand Supercycle whose Wave 3 ended at the 2000 market top in this country and Europe. Bearish Wave 2 in London lasted 62 years from 1722 to 1784 and Wave 3, usually the longest of the 5 waves, lasted from 1684 to 2000. We are now just starting into a long wave IV that may possibly last about 62 years, or equal to the length of Wave 2, since this relationship is often seen in waves 2 and 4 at lower wave levels.

-cut-

THE TRAGEDY OF IGNORANCE

I have been telling this extremely sad story for at least two years. Just think about the serious problem in our country. Our leaders in Washington are being advised on economics by truly blind people. They haven’t a clue on what is now going on in the economy and have been truly blind to the Elliott Wave break thru for more than 70 years. As a result, we have suffered a second great stock market crash with no warning or corrective action. Alan Greenspan thought he detected some "irrational exuberance" in 1996, but he quickly discarded the thought and became a supporter of the "perpetual growth" theory in the "new" economy. Even his words resemble those of Irving Fisher in 1929.

more...
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-08-04 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. Elliott Waves and Laffer curves are what bad math training is all about
Neither is "rational" or really mathematical.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-08-04 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Right,, both try to reduce economics to a simple and
predictable model, which is why both are junk.

The predictability goes like this: the plutocrats start grabbing everything in sight, throwing 99% of the populace into a depression. There is a revolt of some description (peaceful or not) followed by a few real reforms. These reforms stabilize the system for as long as a generation, but the plutocrats are busy from day one trying to get them overturned. When they do, they start grabbing again, and the whole depression cycle repeats.

The New Deal is an example of a successful reform cycle, since it skimmed big money off the top and reciruculated it to the bottom, thus ensuring a well functioning money pump that created a large and stable middle class. Kennedy is the one who initially upset the apple cart by reducing the top marginal rate on the most efficient grabbers at the top, reducing the amount of money to be recirculated to the bottom, and creating the conditions that pit the more heavily taxed middle class against the poor and caused them to call for the destruction of the social safety net.

Capitalism is and always has been a rigged game. Only when it is heavily regulated can it function for all of us.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-09-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well Said, Mr. Warpy. Best 2 Paragraph Description Of Our
Socio-Economic system I have seen.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. I only disagree with one little point, "Only when it is heavily regulated
...can it function for all of us."

It's never worked for "all of us", never. And it cannot. It'd fail it it worked for "everyone", it must have 5-7% unemployment, it must have Poverty for an unlucky Minority, uncertainty for the Majority and opulance for the very, very, very, few.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Can I assume that my point is accepted?
I hope not:-)
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54anickel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. I understand your skepticism Papau, but personally I find the study
of wave patterns and the Kondratieff cycles fascinating. I agree with Bemildred's post that economics is so huge that no one can really get a full grasp on it. Heck, the Feds actually published a study looking at the effects of geo-magnetic storms on the stock market!

The world once thought the sun revolved around the earth. I'm not saying the theory is right or wrong, but it's certainly interesting to look at the "evidence" accumulated.

I think it would sort of be a hoot to find out that there is yet another aspect of our existence that we thought revolved around us or our actions was actually part of a much bigger force.

Of course, that's just me talkin' outta-my-ass before reading the entire article - which I'm about to do now. ;-)
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-08-04 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. "They Haven't Got a Clue About the Economy"
That much he got right, the rest is a tendentious attempt
to pretend that he does. The notion that anyone understands
the economy is ludicrous, like claiming to understand the
global climate or local weather. They have some interesting
theories and useful heuristics, but they are correct at little
above the chance level in predicting what comes next, and
economic theories are like assholes, everybody has one.

I would be willing to wager that the economy, to the extent one
can model it at all, is highly chaotic in the mathematical sense,
in large areas of it's functions, simply because of the massive
feedback of yesterdays results into today; and that therefore it
is unpredictable in principle except in the very short term,
and not well predictable even then.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-10-04 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
5. There hasn't actually been a recession in 12 years,
and yet we are in the midst of a second Great Depression?

Right now the Dow is about 10% off its all time highs, and the S&P about 20% off.

5 years after the market crash in 1929 the Dow was still more than 70% off its highs.

One hell of a Depression.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-18-04 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. noone said "in the midst of"
"...moving slowly and steadily and helplessly into our Second Great Depression"
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-20-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Those high stock prices are not translating into sufficient
middle-class jobs with benefits, nor do those prices seem to be leading to a pay-down of incredible high debt levels.

Remember, our domestic economy is highly dependent on domestic consumer spending. Those lucky enough to hold stocks outside their 401(k)obviously may cash in and spend, and those with large holdings in their 401(k) may feel more free to spend now and put less away. Those who have lost or are afraid of losing their jobs will eventually cut back.

Income and wealth are becoming more concentrated at the top, and those people actually spend a smaller percentage of their income than those at the bottom. I can't see that money invested by upper-income types in Asian manufacturing plants or in the current equivalent of Indonesian bonds will have as great a positive effect on the domestic economy as the same amount of money spent or perhaps invested domestically by the middle, lower middle, working class and poor U.S. residents.
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. My diatribe on why current economic theory is becoming inappropriate..
Edited on Mon Sep-20-04 07:53 PM by GoreN4
Aside from all the debt manipulation re US statistics, inability to address the strucutal issues re the US trade deficit, not to mention the $7.2 Trillion dollar deficit, I really don't put too much faith in contemporary economics as I have begun to see the limitations in current theroems (this appplies to all economics, not just US issues). For those interested in this subject, the new video, "The End of Suburbia" begins to hint at I expect over the next 10-15 yrs..

Anyhow, here's an exert from my upcoming book re the crucial issue of what I forsee as physics vs. economics. (Hint: Mother Nature and the laws of physics are non-negotiable...)

The Enigma of Peak Oil:
Physics versus Economics

In conjunction with the massive energy related challenges of this new century, the second daunting issue regarding Peak Oil is the more intrinsically complex phenomena that may result in a profound clash; the Laws of Physics versus the Theory of Economics. The world’s industrialized economy requires electricity on demand in order to perform the majority of economic activity. In other words, economic growth is predicated on electrical power, which in turn must grow commensurate with the economy. In turn, the generation of electrical power is produced primarily by burning hydrocarbon molecules, especially natural gas (also known as methane).

Following a peak in natural gas production, by default an increase in demand for electrical power may not be possible when a significant portion of current power production is produced in powered plants that burn natural gas. Simply put, current or increasing levels of demand for electrical power may theoretically not be possible once the peak in natural gas occurs.

If this situation replayed itself in various industrialized nations, the global community could experience a net decrease in overall available energy. The global peaking of natural gas seems likely within two decades, and would imply that decreased electrical power will force a potentially negative “growth rate.” Current theorems of economics do not allow for such a phenomenon.

If that scenario were not problematic enough, the enigma of Peak Oil also presents questions about growth of the overall monetary supply. If oil is a required component in the industrialized economies for economic activity (95% of transportation), once the world’s net energy decreases past Peak Oil, does that imply a net decrease in the overall money supply? In 1981, Dr. Hubbert offered the following profound reflections during a lecture at MIT:

“The world’s present industrial civilization is handicapped by the coexistence of two universal, overlapping, and incompatible intellectual systems: the accumulated knowledge of the last four centuries of the properties and interrelationships of matter and energy; and the associated monetary culture which has evolved from folkways of prehistoric origin .

The first of these two systems has been responsible for the spectacular rise, principally during the last two centuries, of the present industrial system and is essential for its continuance. The second, an inheritance from the pre-scientific past, operates by rules of its own, having little in common with those of the matter-energy system. Nevertheless, the monetary system, by a loose coupling, exercises a general control over the matter-energy system upon which it is superimposed.

Despite their inherent incompatibilities, these two systems, during the last two centuries have had one fundamental characteristic in common, namely exponential growth, which has made a reasonably stable coexistence possible. But, for various reasons, it is impossible for the matter-energy system to sustain exponential growth for more than a few tens of doublings, and this phase is by now almost over . The monetary system has no such constraints, and, according to one of its most fundamental rules, it must also continue to grow by compound interest.”

“… crisis in the evolution of human society. It’s unique to both human and geologic history. It has never happened before and it can’t possibly happen again. You can only use oil once.” 218

The late Dr. Hubbert is suggesting in the above passage that it will soon become problematic for the money supply itself to increase beyond the peaking of oil taking into account that access to cheap energy has become a necessary precondition for economic growth in our industrialized system. For the past 100 years, the abundance of hydrocarbons has driven the industrialized economies of the developed nations, and more recently, the global economy.

Unfortunately, no substitutes providing equal energy output per weight or volume has been discovered, nor are any likely sources to become available before the onset of Peak Oil.

Dr. Hubbert’s philosophical observation proffers that the finite availability of matter-energy could, or perhaps does, place an immutable constraint on the growth of the monetary system itself. Perhaps these rather profound reflections are part of the reason why the majority economists refuse to provide much if any commentary on the issue of global Peak Oil, other than to say the “market will find substitutes” as the price of oil goes up. Nonetheless, Sir Martin Rees, the Astronomer Royal of the United Kingdom, has also pondered the implications of Peak Oil as regards economics, and implied that governments may fear the current “Financial System” based on unlimited economic growth and interest payments will simply cease to work after Peak Oil.

“The Second Half of the Oil Age now dawns. It is characterized by the decline of oil production and all that depends on it, including most significantly the Financial System. In logic, the onset of oil decline undermines the very foundations of the economic system, which may accordingly collapse long before oil runs out or becomes in serious short supply.”

“…The recognition of the End of Economics will likely have a greater impact than the actual gradual physical decline of oil itself. The enormity of the issue explains why Governments cannot bring themselves to plan or prepare. It may even prompt some to indulge in resource wars to evade the situation for as long as possible or at least until after the next election.” 219

Without doubt, the author is not aware of any economic models reflecting the apparent discontinuity between matter-energy constraints and current economic theorem based on unconstrained growth. It would seem that current debt obligations based on future economic growth begins to come into conflict if and when a net reduction in the available global energy supply occurs due to the phenomenon of Peak Oil. Taking into account the majority of complex economic activity today is dependent on a depleting energy source – burning hydrocarbon molecules - how could future revenue pay for current debts if economic growth becomes negative?

In essence, the concept of banks applying interest on debt obligations that will be paid on the growth of future earnings becomes a problematic construct. Carried to its logical conclusion suggests inevitable debt repudiation – categorically on all debts based upon economic activity that is dependent on increasing levels of electrical power. Theoretically, that would by default mean the collapse of The Banking System. The implication of Peak oil is indeed a profound quandary.

It is unpredictable how the current global financial system will react to Peak Oil, a concept that represents the ‘Mother of all Conundrums.’ Perhaps an entirely new paradigm will eventually evolve that includes ecological metrics such as Energy Return on Energy Invested (EROEI), a sort of ‘ecological economics’' that takes into consideration the ecosystem, including biophysical laws and related ecological limitations. In this author’s opinion, whoever successfully constructs a viable mechanism for ‘ecological economics’ will likely deserve the Nobel Peace Prize.

218. Heinberg, Richard, The Party’s Over, op cited, p. 91
219. Rees, Martin, Our Final Century: Will the human race survive the twenty-first century?, William Heinemann, 2003

(seperate/preceeding subchapter re EROEI)

EROEI and Alternative Energy Technologies

One of crucial concepts required to understand the importance of Peak Oil relates to a concept in physics commonly described as Energy Return on Energy Invested, or EROEI. Unlike the traditional financial metric referred to as Return on Investment (ROI), EROEI refers to the amount of energy spent compared to the amount of energy extracted. EROEI is illustrated as ratio between energy expended to extract a barrel of oil, versus the energy that barrel of oil will provide.

From a physics perspective the amount of energy required to extract the oil after peak begins to increase irreversibly, resulting in a decrease of Energy Return on Energy Invested, which under a certain value means the remaining oil will not be viable for transportation. Below are definitions of illustrating the fundamental differences between ROI and EROEI:

ROI versus EROEI

ROI (Return on Investment) means the accounting is done in dollars. If an oil well produces enough oil to cover expenses with some left over, then the ROI is positive. Some oil is too expensive to produce at the current price of oil. An economist would say that that oil would be produced if the price of oil rises sufficiently.

EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) means that the accounting is done in energy units. It is possible to calculate the energy cost of an oil well. Energy is required to make the steel, to run the drill, to pump the oil, etc. This energy is subtracted from the energy in the produced oil. If the result is positive, the energy return on energy invested (EROEI) is positive. Drilling for oil to get energy becomes pointless if the EROEI goes negative. That does not mean that oil wells will not be drilled. It means that oil will be used for fertilizers or plastics, but not for transport or heating. 212

Fifty years ago when some of the super giant oil fields were be still being discovered, an EROEI from one the oil wells of these super giants could sometimes produce an EROEI of 200. In contrast, oil wells in deep water currently achieve an EROEI of less than 5.

To recap, oil removed form tar sands as found in Canada have a very low EROEI of only 0.7, and a slow extraction process. Once global peak oil is reached and exceeded, at some point on the downward side of Hubbert’s curve, the remaining oil in the ground, or at the bottom of the ocean, will not provide a positive EROEI for transportation or possibly even extraction for industrial use.

Importantly, when the energy required to extract such low-grade or geographically undesirable oil is equal or greater than the energy that would be provided by that new barrel of oil, it will no longer be logical to expend the energy to extract the oil. At that point the oil will simply remain in the ground.

After oil, the most important hydrocarbon for energy use is natural gas, or Methane gas using the industry’s terminology. The situation regarding natural gas is no better than that of oil. Energy experts such as Matthew Simmons have stated that enduring natural gas shortages in the U.S. are imminent. He predicts this may ultimately result in power interruptions similar to what happened on August 14, 2003 when 57 million people in northern U.S. and into Canada experienced a power black-out. Canada currently exporting 50% of its natural gas into the U.S., but this practice may not be sustainable as their own domestic supply will soon reach its peak.

According to Julian Darley, a British environmental researcher and author of High Noon for Natural Gas, both the U.S. and Canada are experiencing near critical declines in natural gas production.

“…Canada is definitely in a very serious, permanent natural gas production decline, and that matters for the US because Canada has been supplying 15-18% of US natural gas. We’ve reached a peak of that just a couple of years ago, it’s declining now, and that’s another major reason why the US hasn’t seen another gas crisis in the last 15 years, because Canada has been sending more than half of its gas south. That is a situation which is now changing, so there are a number of reasons which are boiling up, including Canadian natural gas production declining, US natural gas production holding or declining , but demand for it always trying to increase.”

“…one is left then, if you are in government, the only, if you like, business as usual solution, which I think is a very bad solution for the reasons already stated, particularly to do with war and political destabilization, not to mention the unfortunate effects on the population where the gas has to come from – it’s going to mean liquefied natural gas with very expensive importing terminals, ships which are huge and very expensive, and an interesting target for, let’s say, people who have a grudge against the US, and it could go off in an interesting kind of conflagration.”

…”definitely there’s a huge push going on in the US. I think it should be resisted greatly, but one has to realize that if you resist natural gas it’s going to mean cutting your electricity demand. I don’t think there’s any other way around that, so this is very important.” 213

Unfortunately politicians on the right and the left are either in to be in deep denial about this, or they dare not speak about it.

Regardless, the technical analysis is available and relatively easy to understand for those willing to do some research. Although many environmental groups advocate that alternative energy technology cam be implemented and provide requisite levels of current energy production, an objective analysis of EROEI data irrefutably indicates that no single - or combination - of alternative energy technologies could prevent a *net reduction* in global energy/electrical capacity. None of the currently discovered energy alternatives, even exciting new technologies such as “Thermal Depolymerization” (TDP) can begin to provide the energy base currently provided by our hydrocarbon-based infrastructure and transportation systems before Peak Oil. 214

Oil and gas are not mere commodities; as demand for these substances is relatively inelastic considering that no viable substitutes have been found or developed that can support the projected energy demand of the industrialized economies. The U.S. is the most prolific energy consumer of all, and is the most as risk for economic dislocations when Mother Nature reveals the finite nature of hydrocarbons. We must face these facts with both hope and incomparable personal resolve, as global Peak Oil will define the major geopolitical, economic and societal events of 21st century. Indeed, the passing of Peak Oil will test the human condition.

212. “World Oil Reserves,” The Coming World Oil Crisis, http://planetforlife.com/oilcrisis/oilreserves.html

213. Transcript of Julian Darley, author of High Noon for Natural Gas, discussing natural gas depletion and responses with Sue Supriano of Steppin' Out of Babylon, on August 18, 2004. Copy of transcript can be found at the following url: http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/INTERVIEWS/JULIAN.DARLEY/

214. Lemley, Brad, “Anything Into Oil: Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year,” DISCOVER Vol. 24, No. 05, May 2003


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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. No alternatives?
There may not be any easy alternatives, but there are alternatives. There are always alternatives. They may just be too costly compared to oil and natural gas of the past.

In any case, it is interesting that Malthusianism is in vogue again, and it may be that the relatively cheap exploitation of petroleum resources interrupted its fashionability over the centuries.

Now with peak oil, the scarcity issue brings the politics of social darwinism back to the forefront. In such fashion, we spend more resources on war trying to perpetuate a system in denial that refuses to adapt.

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