Federal Reserve Transparency Petition Update: Success

[girl gone mad]

To all here who signed the petition:

Federal Reserve Transparency Petition Update: Success
http://zerohedge.blogspot.com/2009/06/federal-reserve-transparency-petition.html">Zero Hedge

We are happy to announce that the HR 1207 "Audit The Fed" Bill is now one large step closer to reality, having garnered the necessary 218 co-sponsors to ensure passage. It has, in fact, 222 co-sponsors as of today and more are appearing by the hour. Please click here for the http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/tx14_paul/audit.shtml">official press release.

Many thanks to all readers who directly and indirectly helped: as recently as a month ago people said this initiative was a waste of time. This is indeed a big victory for the grass roots freedom and transparency movement. Next up: seeing the bill through a committee process and getting it to the House floor for a vote, culminating in a transparent and auditable Federal Reserve.

[BeFree]

1. Whoa!!

Where have I been? First I heard of this. Great work, people!!

The fed needs some prying into. Its been run as a private enterprise since day one.

The federal reserve in a nutshell: It prints our money and then loans it to us and collects interest from us and then pockets that interest. And they can charge what ever interest they think they can get away with.

[SDuderstadt]

3. More of your bullshit, BeFree...

The Federal Reserve doesn't "print our money", BeFree. Paper currency is printed by the Bureau of Printing snd Engraving (part of the Treasury Department) and coins are struck by the U.S. Mint.
http://www.bep.treas.gov

http://www.usmint.gov/index.cfm?flash=yes

The Fed has also not been "run as a private enterprise since day one". It's an independent federal agency, like the EPA. It's set up that way to insulate it from political pressure. The Fed also does not "pocket" the interest nor does it charge whatever interest they think they can get away with. The interest rate is set by the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee) and it would be pointless for them to charge "whatever interest they think they can get away with" because, by federal law, the Fed must return any earnings above and beyond its operating costs to the Federal Treasury. In 2008, that amount was $34.9 billion.

http://www.frbatlanta.org/invoke.cfm?objectid=13D5DF40-5056-9F12-12A9E2428517008F&method=display_body

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve

The appalling thing about listening to you yammer on is your incredible ignorance about the way our government works. What's even more appalling is your apparent incuriousity about educating yourself before you just prattle on about things you have absolutely no knowledge of. The Federal Reserve should, by no means, be above scrutiny and there are plenty of valid reasons to criticize it. But your invincible mythology about the Fed isn't part of it.

I have a simple question for you. Have you ever taken a civics class?

[BeFree]

4. Well

Like I said "in a nutshell" Thanks for all the pages of boring stuff, tho.

The problem is that while the fed is supposed to do what you say, it doesn't.
Surprise!! The bankers are ripping us off!! Who could imagine? Not you, eh?
And that's why there is gonna be a law for transparency.

Glad to appall someone of your stature. Your personal attacks are like water off a duck.

[SDuderstadt]

7. Okay, BeFree....

Since you "know so much about how the Federal Reserve works", why don't you explain how they are ripping us off, rather than your vague generalizations? Be very specific (which will be next to impossible for you, since you have no idea wtf you're talking about).

It's interesting how you describe information about how the Federal Reserve works as "pages of boring stuff". I'm sure it's far more interesting to revel in your ignorance of the subject. Thanks for confirming what I said about your rather amazing incuriousity about how our system works. I mean, how in the world is someone supposed to reason with someone as uneducated as yourself that you claim the Federal Reserve prints our money?

[BeFree]

12. Heh

What you don't seem to get is that the fed and their buds do most of their dirty work behind closed doors. Its how we just got ripped off for trillions of $$.

Sure, I don't know the specifics of how they operate. Only those on the inside do.

[Psychic Consortium]

9. The courts have ruled that the Fed is not a federal agency, but a public one.

Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982)

Edit to add..... the courts found that the Feds do
not have the govt oversight or involvement to qualify
as a public entity.

[SDuderstadt]

21. Actually, this is another Federal Reserve Myth...

The ruling in Lewis was limited to the meaning of federal agency within the Federal Tort Claims Act and is commonly misapplied by anti-Federal Reserve types to signify far more than the court concluded. If I remember correctly, Lewis was employed by one of the Regional Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve's status as an independent federal agency was established by Congress.

[midnight]

35. I thought the federal reserve was a private entity?

[TheWatcher]

41. Like DK says. It's about as Federal as Federal Express.

[BeFree]

16. heh 2

Well, lets see, the 700B TARP money.... Was it printed on paper and handed over to the Banks? Eh, what's that? It was 'printed' in thin air. Like most of our money these days.

The EPA is a cabinet level agency directly answerable to the President. Nixon had the first one. The Fed doesn't answer to the pres.

Ya know, if you were just a bit more knowledgeable about these things and read more than a few internet links, we might be able to believe you really know what goes on. Alas...

ETA: Yep, its not the fed but the banks that get our money from the fed then loan it to us at whatever interest rate they can and pocket it. My bad.

[SDuderstadt]

22. Wrong again...

as usual, BeFree. Do you bother to fact-check this bullshit before you post it?

Both the Federal Reserve and the Environmental Protection Agency are independent agencies of the federal government and, as such, are not directly under the control of the President:

Independent agencies can be distinguished from the federal executive departments and other executive agencies by their structural and functional characteristics.<1> Congress can also designate certain agencies explicitly as "independent" in the governing statute, but the functional differences have more legal significance.<2>

While most executive agencies have a single director, administrator, or secretary appointed by the President of the United States, independent agencies almost always have a commission, board, or similar collegial body consisting of five to seven members who share power over the agency.<3> (This is why many independent agencies include the word "Commission" or "Board" in their name). The President appoints the commissioners or board members, subject to Senate confirmation, but they often serve with staggered terms, and often for longer terms than a usual four-year Presidential term,<4> meaning most Presidents will not have the opportunity to appoint all the commissioners of a given independent agency. Normally the President can designate which Commissioner will serve as the Chairperson.<5> Normally there are statutory provisions limiting the President's authority to remove commissioners, typically for incapacity, neglect of duty, malfeasance, or other good cause.<6> In addition, most independent agencies have a statutory requirement of bipartisan membership on the commission, so the President cannot simply fill vacancies with members of his own political party.<7>

In reality, the high turnover rate among these commissioners or board members means that most Presidents have the opportunity to fill enough vacancies to constitute a voting majority on each independent agency commission within the first two years of the first term as President.<8> In some famous instances, Presidents have found the independent agencies more loyal and in lockstep with the President's wishes and policy objectives than some dissenters among the executive agency political appointments.<9> Presidential attempts to remove independent agency officials have generated most of the important Supreme Court legal opinions in this area.<10> Presidents normally do have the authority to remove heads of independent agencies, but they must meet the statutory requirements for removal, such as demonstrating that the individual has committed malfeasance. In contrast, the President can remove regular executive agency heads at will.

If the independent agency exercises any executive powers like enforcement, and most of them do, Congress cannot participate in the regular removal process of commissioners.<11> Constitutionally, Congress can only participate directly in impeachment proceedings. Congress can, however, pass statutes limiting the circumstances under which the President can remove commissioners of independent agencies.<12> Members of Congress cannot serve as commissioners on independent agencies that have executive powers,<13> nor can Congress itself appoint the commissioners - the Appointments Clause of the Constitution vests that power in the President.<14> The Senate does participate, however, in appointments through "advice and consent," which occurs through confirmation hearings and votes on the President's nominees.

The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) works with state and local governments throughout the United States to control and abate pollution in the air and water and to deal with problems related to solid waste, pesticides, radiation, and toxic substances. EPA sets and enforces standards for air and water quality, evaluates the impact of pesticides and chemical substances, and manages the "Superfund" program for cleaning toxic waste sites.

The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is the governing body of the Federal Reserve System (frequently referred to as "the Fed"<15>), the central bank of the United States. It conducts the nation's monetary policy by influencing the volume of credit and money in circulation. The Federal Reserve regulates private banking institutions, works to contain systemic risk in financial markets, and provides certain financial services to the U.S. government, the public, and financial institutions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_agencies_of_the_United_States_government

Frankly, BeFree, I find your ignorance of the actual workings of nearly everything you spout off about to be dangerous and, more troubling, you seem to revel in that ignorance.

More importantly, you should listen to Hamden, because you're spouting RW Anti-Federal Reserve propaganda. I find the infiltration of RW propaganda into liberal organizations troubling and frankly it's why I have trouble taking the 9/11 "truth movement" and, more particularly, you seriously.

[followthemoney]

18. Civics class gives an idea of how the government is ...

SUPPOSED to work. Not how it DOES work.

Did you get the part about lobbying and big cash in the legislative process in your civics class?

I didn't.

Did they teach you how congress alone has the right to declares war? That just isn't done anymore.

Get out from under the BS taught in school. Teachers teach that because they'd be fired if they told the truth.

All paper money is issued as debt.

The Federal Reserve is privately owned, Mr.Civics class.

[SDuderstadt]

23. Bullshit...

The Federal Reserve is not "owned" by anyone. While it is true that all member banks are required to own subscription stock in the regional federal reserve bank to which they belong, that is not ownership in the way you or I think of it.

http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/flaherty/flaherty4.html

All paper money is issued as debt.

Have you been watching "Money as Debt" or something? Do you think the author of that video (a graphics designer) has any specific knowledge of monetary policy or fractional reserve banking? How, specifically, would you propose we monetize value in our system?

BTW, my undergraduate degree is in comparative political systems, so I had much more than just a "civics class". Do you realize that you are spouting RW anti-Federal Reserve propaganda? BTW, publiceye.org (citation above) exists to study and debunk RW myths.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SDuderstadt]

27. So, tell me...

precisely what credentials does the creator of ''Money as Debt'' have to educate people on monetary policy. If you were enrolling for a political economy class and he was the professor, would you have confidence he knew what he was talking about? I wouldn't. My concern here is not scrutiny of the Federal Reserve, but the spreading of RW anti-Federal Reserve propaganda.

For example, your claim that the Federal Reserve is a private, for profit banking system is nonsense. If you'd bother to read, the Federal Reserve, by Federal law (USC) returns all earnings over its operating costs to the US Treasury. I'm willing to bet you didn't know that.

[Grinchie]

24. Your attacks seem out of place SDuderstadt.

Especially considering that there is more than ample evidence that the Federal Reserve (Central Bank) is a cabal of independent shareholders with the power to create money out of thin air. The surpirising amount of "Shoot the Messenger" rhetoric is remarkable, since you take verbatim that the Federal Reserve is an "independant Federal Agency", yet has ties to all the big investmant banks via membership, as well as a shadowy world of other interests that seem quite happy to work with the US. Government to provide economic policies such as boom and bust cycles, by manipulation of currency supply, and the direction taken by industry.

You talk about apparent incuriousity of one person, yet you take the marketing pap from the Treasury and the Federal Reserve as gospel.

The fact of the matter is that the Federal Reserve has not stabilized markets, and has eneabled entities such as Enron, Maddof, Stanford, and the overbloated Military Industrial complex by controlling the media outlets and propaganda megaphones completely.

You are right about one thing though, the Government and the Fedral Reserve are two birds of a feather today, because the Government has been bought by the Fed years ago, and they now work together hand in hand redistributing the wealth upward, and imposing a lifetime of servitude on the masses, despite the advances of technology or productivity.

Please feel free to tell us all how the Government works. You make it sound like you actually know...

[SDuderstadt]

28. Actually, I know quite a bit more about how government works...

than you do. As I asked in a previous post, did you know that the Fed returns all of its earnings above operating costs to the US Treasury?

One of my biggest problems with the infiltration of RW anti-Fed propaganda into progressive websites is the subtle ''government is evil'' RW meme.

[Grinchie]

30. Then can you please explain why Government is Broken?

Roy Scheider once said "I know what a shark looks like", but the shark still kicked his ass in the end.

Their is nothing about Fraud that makes it a political "meme". It's an ethical one, especially when the policies are serving the upper classes almost exclusively.

Now when the Government is owned by the interests that support the general status quo, either by threat or monetary influence, along with the ability to write laws in faver of the banking system and Corporations, then the system is broken.

It's pretty clear that there are different sets of laws applied to different sets of people, and this is going to be the downfall of the Fed.

Feel free to defend the Federal Reserve, but the facts are out there for anybody that actually bothers to look in the right places, so they are free to make up their own minds without listening to you try to force people into a belief system based on nothing.

You have not presented anything that would change my determination that the Fed is nothing more than another Central Bank, gaming the Governments of the world for their own gain.

[SDuderstadt]

33. Fraud is a pretty strong word, dude...

Can you present your evidence that the Federal Reserve is a ''fraud''? What kind of fraud would return all of its earnings above operating costs to the US Treasury? As far as your point about the government being broken, I would say 8 years of GWB and even more of Republican rule will do it everytime.

I am not saying that the Fed should be above scrutiny or that it doesn't merit reform. I just think throwing terms like ''fraud'' and your general anti-government rhetoric should be left to the GOP.

More importantly, do you believe central banking is evil? What would you propose to replace it?

[TheWatcher]

38. No you don't.

You are nothing more than a shill and an apologist.

So full of shit you think the Earth's oxygen is SUPPOSED to smell like your own ass.

And THAT, said the Cat is that. :)

[Celebration]

42. the shareholders earn dividends of six percent

And we don't know who the shareholders are.

Look, it is a "public, private partnership". It is not a government agency.

We need an independent audit of the Federal Reserve, and we should know the shareholders, and their dividends.

Wikipedia has a good article on the Federal Reserve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve

In the current system, private banks are for-profit businesses but government regulation places restrictions on what they can do. The Federal Reserve System is the part of government that regulates the private banks. The balance between privatization and government involvement is also seen in the structure of the system. Private banks elect members of the board of directors at their regional Federal Reserve Bank while the members of the Board of Governors are selected by the President of the United States and confirmed by the Senate. The private banks give input to the government officials about their economic situation and these government officials use this input in Federal Reserve policy decisions. In the end, private banking businesses are able to run a profitable business while the U.S. government, through the Federal Reserve System, oversees and regulates the activities of the private banks.

The 12 Federal Reserve banks provide the financial means to operate the Federal Reserve System. Each reserve bank is organized much like a private corporation so that it can provide the necessary revenue to cover operational expenses and implement the demands of the board. Member banks are privately owned banks that must buy a certain amount of stock in the Reserve Bank within its region to be a member of the Federal Reserve System. This stock "may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan" and These member banks must maintain fractional reserves either as vault currency or on account at its Reserve Bank; member banks earn no interest on either of these. The dividends paid by the Federal Reserve Banks to member banks are considered partial compensation for the lack of interest paid on the required reserves. All profit after expenses is returned to the U.S. Treasury or contributed to the surplus capital of the Federal Reserve Banks (and since shares in ownership of the Federal Reserve Banks are redeemable only at par, the nominal "owners" do not benefit from this surplus capital); the Federal Reserve system contributed over $29 billion to the Treasury in 2006.<43>

The Federal Reserve will not tell us specifically who holds how many shares and what the payments are. It is suspected by folks that the bulk of the dividends end up going to powerful European families, through their ownership of the big New York banks. We should know exactly which banks get these dividends, and how much, IMHO. In turn, we should be able to see the stockholder ownership in those entities.

I say open the books.

[TheWatcher]

36. "The appalling thing about listening to you yammer on is your incredible ignorance about the way our

our government works."

Am I the only one who fails to see the beautiful irony of this statement?

:rofl:

My God, what an eloquent shill.

Get over yourself sweetie.

No one cares, no one is interested.

[HamdenRice]

10. The guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum was also an anti-Fed fanatic

Have you ever considered what political company you keep when you spout the standard anti-Fed mythology? I mean generally, that's the ideology and mythology of at best, the Ron Paul libertarian right, and at worst, the neo-Nazi movement.

[BeFree]

11. Really?

You really have to stoop so low as to try and put me in some corner?
You can't make your case any other way?

[HamdenRice]

13. I'm not trying to put you in a corner. I' am asking you to look at the sources of

the anti-Fed mythology. I'm not talking about legitimate criticism of the Fed, but the specific set of non-factual claims that often get spouted. They all derive from the same space on the ideological spectrum.

[BeFree]

17. Oh?

No, you tried to paint me into a corner with the latest right-winging, hate-monger of the day. Really bad to stoop so low, eh?

Granted, I am not real familiar with the FED and its intricacies, but you must agree that the Fed does control our money - out of sight and as far away from our prying eyes as possible.

Since this thread is about reforming some of the negative aspects of the Fed and you purport to be some kind of expert, why don't you educate us?

[TheWatcher]

40. because Propaganda does not educate, it only obfuscates, irrtitates, and deviates

From what you are trying to get to.

And That would be the Truth.

Hamhead is a waste of time.

You'd be better off watching CNBC.

[SDuderstadt]

14. Thanks, HR...

Maybe you can talk some sense into BeFree.

[TheWatcher]

39. Actually, you two should get a room and spew your delusions out to each other.

Then you could have a shillgasm.

:rofl:

The endless entertainment of the Man Who Wants Everyone To Think He Knows Everything, But In Reality Knows LESS Than Nothing.

You're on FIRE today Dunderhead.

I'm beginning to think you actually BELIEVE the Bullshit you spew.

:rofl:

[followthemoney]

19. Right Wingers eat apples. Do you?

Better not eat an apple because someone might think you're a KKK member.

[HamdenRice]

20. Right wingers are the only ones who advocate right wing ideology

Do you know of any credible major figures on the left who spout anti-Fed conspiracy mythology? I don't.

[Grinchie]

26. I believe Kucinich has expressed his interest.

Also, there are certain Congresscritters that are now waking up to the general tsunami of interst in the failed policies of the Fed.

Rightwing, Leftwing, you make it sound so simple. It's like you expect these terms to be keywords that trigger some sort of brainlock to coerce other into believing your rhetoric.

You have to admit that much of the problem is due to a non rational monetary policy based upon debt and not resources.

I'm more than happy to use Barter and Cocoa beans for money. In fact, it is much easier for me to just avoid the mandated "Legal Tender", but I can't since laws are on the books that we must honor this toilet paper.

Please explain to me why a Roll of Masking Tape from the Local Hardware store is manufactured in China? Don't they have machines that make this stuff by the mile per hour at fractions of a cent per unit cost?

Yet, we have it made in China, Shipped overseas, transported all over the country, repackaged and then sold to the end user. In a real economy, that would be out of the question, and it is truly a waste of resources. It's caused by virtually free money, and it's the work of the fed. Yet, we do not see much benefit in reduction of prices, but we do see lost jobs and wages.

This is the FED, or Central Bank if you will. In the past, one could travel to different countries to escape a panic or depression. Now, with Globalization, the cultures are so homogenous there is no escape from global collapse. Every city has been McModernized. The food is the same. The people are the same, vacuuous drones slaving away for a wage.

[SDuderstadt]

29. ''we must honor this toilet paper''...

With all respect, dude, I don't have the time to try to reason with someone who throws around labels like ''cabal'' and willfully enables the GOP ''goverment is the problem'' meme.

[Grinchie]

31. Since you have nothing to offer other than shoot the messenger...

There is nothing more telling than an Authoritarian trying to paint an opponent as the "Enemy" woo, I'm so scared.

For someone with no time, you sure do post a lot of empty criticism without a basis in reality.

The truth is, a lot of people of both leberal and conservative cloth see the problem the Fed causes. I can't disavow truth anymore than I can stop breathing for more than five minutes.

You however, would like to perpetuate a divisive mentality that prohibits clear thought and solutions.

The Fed is a Cabal, with the legal backing to enable it, whether you can admit it or not.

[SDuderstadt]

34. It's somewhat ironic to accuse me of

''perpetuating a divisive mentality'' when you label me an ''authoritarian'' and the Fed a ''cabal'' with no proof of either. Can you please tell me what makes the Fed a ''cabal'' and why on earth a ''cabal'' would return all of its earnings above operating costs to the US treasury?

There are many valid reasons to criticize the Fed, but I find your generalized anti-Fed and anti-government rants troubling. Again, could you please give us a non-bullshit explanation of how the Fed is a ''cabal'' and what you would propose to replace it with? To be blunt, I think you've learned some anti-Fed buzzwords along the way and you have no earthly idea what it actually does. It must particularly gall you to learn that President Obama disagrees with you and is actually seeking to expand the Fed's powers.

Maybe you should write to him and explain how the Fed is a ''fraud'' and a ''cabal''. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. Don't you think it would make sense to learn what the Fed actually does and how it works before you just sound off?

[notesdev]

2. Now it's time

to hold some Senate weasel feet to the fire so they don't squirm out of this one.

Let's see some REAL transparency from these crooks. My bet is that once the truth is known they'll be lining up to rat each other out.

edit - almost forgot: check out who was the 218th (the number to ensure passage in the House) co-sponsor.

[slipslidingaway]

6. I thought about that a few days ago, it made no sense

that he was not a cosponsor.

[notesdev]

8. I would guess that was prearranged for the symbolism -nt

[slipslidingaway]

5. knr nt

[Crewleader]

15. transparency....yes!

k&r



Jim Grant on CNBC: If Fed Audited Self, It Would Be Shut Down

http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/2009/06/10/jim-grant-on-cnbc-if-fed-audited-self-it-would-be-shut-down/?ref=patrick.net

[Joanne98]

32. Thank you DK

[TheWatcher]

37. I see one of our resident shills head is exploding in this thread.

It is kind of sadistic to say this, but I ADORE your suffering.

:rofl: