Science and the God Particle and Religion-comment on $5b on a Higgs search

[papau]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1287710,00.html

Is this the answer to God, the universe and all that?

In the above link the Guardian discusses the idea of spending £3bn for a 20-mile long tunnel for an experiment to find the "God" particle - the Higgs boson.

And I bet we will spend the money, because why not?

Our current theory of particles and their interactions (simplest version) requires all the masses of the particles to be zero but we say we have a whole variety of particle masses! We need the mechanism by which particles acquire mass- if we are to accept the electro-weak theory and continue on our way to a "grand unified" synthesis - indeed without the Higgs' ability to fill space with its mysterious presence, our ambitious theories of how the Universe burst into existence out of some initial quantum fluctuation, and why the Universe prefers to be filled with matter rather than anti-matter; that is, why there is something rather than nothing would be unconstrained by science - and indeed would be so like religion as to make those "scientists" in this work feel uncomfortable.

Besides, who knows how many Higgs particles there are - perhaps each made from still more elementary components - and it would fun to search the range of possible Higgs masses from that of an iron atom to three times that of a uranium atom.(around 80 gigaelectronvolts (GeV) was our minimum mass/energy guess - but we have already searched up to 115 Gev - so we only have 30% of the range left).

Peter Higgs proposed that the whole of space is permeated by a field, similar in some ways to the electromagnetic field. As particles move through space they travel through this field, and if they interact with it they acquire what appears to be mass. In order to give particles mass, a background field is invented which becomes locally distorted whenever a particle moves through it (The distortion - the clustering of the field around the particle - generates the particle's mass). This is similar to the action of viscous forces felt by particles moving through any thick liquid. the larger the interaction of the particles with the field, the more mass they appear to have.

One would think that the existence of this field is essential in Higg's hypothesis for the production of the mass of particles. We know from quantum theory that fields have particles associated with them, the particle for the electromagnetic field being the photon. So there "must" be a particle associated with the Higg's field, and this is the Higgs boson. Finding the Higgs boson is thus the "key" to discovering whether the Higgs field does exist and whether our best hypothesis for the origin of mass is indeed correct.

However, as in most matters of faith/religion, while the Higgs boson is predicted to be the clustering in the Higgs field, and finding it would make it much easier to believe that the field exists - we do have a fall back for true believers via using an analog in the physics of solids. A crystal lattice - which can carry waves of clustering without needing an electron to move and attract the atoms, with waves behaving as if they are particles called phonons - and we call them bosons -so we could have a Higgs mechanism, and a Higgs field throughout our Universe, without there being a Higgs boson! So our $5 billion tunnel may well settle nothing!

But I must admit it is a lovely religion - with a great overlay of logic -Peter Higgs' model is a beautiful, but complex, progression. He starts with a particle that has only mass, and no other characteristics, such as charge, that distinguish particles from empty space. Calling his "bosons" particle H, H interacts with other particles - there is a force - and using quantum mechanics we find that the parameters in the equations for the field associated with the particle H can be chosen in such a way that the lowest energy state of that field (EMPTY SPACE) is one with the field "NOT ZERO" - so that all particles that can interact with H gain mass from the interaction - with the mass (or inertia or resistance to change in motion) of a particle coming from its being "grabbed at" by Higgs particles when we try and move it.

And you though it took a lot of faith and contributions of the faithful to keep the Churches and Temples and Mosques and Shrines going. Welcome to the belief that we can ignore "pre-universe" and explain "post universe" without "God".

:-)

[Warpy]

1. Gods always rush in to fill the spaces in our knowledge,

but once they do, all other questioning is stopped. Once it's reduced to god, that's the explanation, and why bother searching for more? Going beyond a god explanation becomes heresy, and we know what they do to heretics.

Subatomic physics has actually become submatter physics, with ever smaller particles being smashed until what we're left with is energy, all spinning in different directions and combining to form what we used to think of as matter.

Gravity and mass are the last two real mysteries of a mechanical model of the universe.

Personally, I think the Taoists were right, that the universe is a living organism that doesn't know it's alive. That leaves ample room for us to find out how it's put together, what makes it all tick, while allowing for a set of energies that physiicists haven't yet considered, but are the energies that make us aware enough to wonder.

[salib]

3. What would it mean for the universe to be self-aware

"Personally, I think the Taoists were right, that the universe is a living organism that doesn't know it's alive. That leaves ample room for us to find out how it's put together, what makes it all tick, while allowing for a set of energies that physiicists haven't yet considered, but are the energies that make us aware enough to wonder."

Aside from the very loose use of terms that truly do have stronger definitions ("energies", "spinning", etc.), what would it mean to have a self-aware universe. Now that is cosmic. Does it even have to be a "living" "organism"? As one of my favorite author's pointed out, "I think they need to use a bigger box."

[papau]

6. Spaces in our knowledge ? I have faith that eventually all will be known

"Gods always rush in to fill the spaces" - or Man always rushes in to say he knows the mind of God - and when it is shown he doesn't, we get a new theory - and that is scientific progress?

"all other questioning is stopped" - why would a belief - a faith - stop all other questioning? That is like saying that I have faith in QM so I will not question the standard model even if there are holes - because it is just my understanding of QM that is at fault - QM is correct now and always will be, Amen.

I suspect questioning is built into the human model and is the reason both science, and religion, are of interest to most of us.

And although I make light of science - of guessing the will of God, and changing the guess when proven wrong or incomplete, it must be said that life since the Greeks started to analyse the way things are and work has gotten much better.

It is just I suspect we take a bit more pride in our science than is justified, or will ever be justified.

:-)

[wurzel]

2. Thanks for the post.

I have been a DU for a couple of months and have to confess I never knew this board existed. Like a lot of people I read books by Greene, Gribben, Ferris etc., but I only get about a tenth of what they are trying to tell me. A lot of it seems to me more like mysticism than science. But I've always put that down to my own limited capacity. And it is limited. Anyway I'll make a habit of looking up this board in the future.

[salib]

4. It is.

"A lot of it seems to me more like mysticism than science"

The science is easier.

[papau]

5. LOL - I agree - after going through the Roman Cannon Law of 1983 a

while back trying to understand why there is a wheat only rule for what Christ called bread, and a wine only rule for what Christ called fruit of the vine, I totally agree Science is easier!.

:-)

Then again that can be turned around - like most things - and we have folks that like to think, but are wimps, should stick to science. :-)

:party:

:toast:

:-)

[smirkymonkey]

7. What would the fundies do?

So much for creationism.

Are YOU rapture ready?

[Moderator]

8. Locking as duplicate.....please continue discussion here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x12910