MDFC- Methanol Direct Fuel Cell - looking for info

[RainDog]

hi. is anyone here familiar with MDFC, and if so, do have good sources of info for someone who's trying to learn about the subject?

thanks in advance!

[NNadir]

1. Here's a recent paper on the subject, if you're looking for something

technical.

Chem. Mater., 15 (5), 1119 -1124, 2003. 10.1021/cm011565c S0897-4756(01)01565-4
Web Release Date: February 7, 2003

Copyright © 2003 American Chemical Society
Synthesis and Characterization of Os and Pt-Os/Carbon Nanocomposites and their Relative Performance as Methanol Electrooxidation Catalysts

[RainDog]

2. I guess I'm looking for things that are more idiot friendly

...like me...

I'm looking for things about its practical application now and in the near future.

Do you know about Toshiba and computer batteries using this technology?

Or another company that's using it for cell phone batteries?

Trying to find out about this and other technologies and the ways in which alternatives can be and are now being implemented.

[CHIMO]

18. For Understanding

A good start would be Jane Jacobs. I know it is not the exact topic that you are looking for, but if one wishes to approach from a social point and not the specific scientific one, then this might be a reference.

Dark Age Ahead


http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?1400062322

[phantom power]

3. Catalytic chemists always get to work with the exotic elements.

How many professions allow you to work with Osmimum, Rhodium, Ytterbium...

Except maybe hi-temp superconductivity chemists.

[snowFLAKE]

4. At least Two

Don't forget the Purveyors of Hotty-Totty credit cards.

In the past few months my applications for a Platinum Visa, Gadolinium MasterCard, and a Praseodymium Discover card have all been turned down. Oh well, I'll make do the my Gold Cards (which, btw, they seem to give out to Just Anybody nowadays).

[phantom power]

5. I have lived too long....

[NNadir]

6. Actually the need to use exotic metals is a big problem. Here's another

abstract:

. Phys. Chem. B, 104 (42), 9772 -9776, 2000. 10.1021/jp001954e S1089-5647(00)01954-4
Web Release Date: October 3, 2000

Copyright © 2000 American Chemical Society
How To Make Electrocatalysts More Active for Direct Methanol Oxidation-Avoid PtRu Bimetallic Alloys!

Jeffrey W. Long, Rhonda M. Stroud, Karen E. Swider-Lyons, and Debra R. Rolison*

Surface Chemistry Branch (Code 6170) and Surface Modification Branch (Code 6370), Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, D.C. 20375

Received: May 30, 2000

Abstract:

"Contrary to the current understanding of Pt-Ru electrocatalyzed oxidation of methanol, the bimetallic alloy is not the most desired form of the catalyst. In the nanoscale Pt-Ru blacks used to electrooxidize methanol in direct methanol fuel cells, Pt0Ru0 has orders of magnitude less activity for methanol oxidation than does a mixed-phase electrocatalyst containing Pt metal and hydrous ruthenium oxides (RuOxHy). Bulk, rather than near-surface, quantities of electron-proton conducting RuOxHy are required to achieve high activity for methanol oxidation. The active catalyst forms a nanoscopic, phase-separated hydrons oxide-on-metal structure that retains the Pt metal-RuOxHy boundaries required to oxidize methanol fully to carbon dioxide and water."


Be that as it may, a great catalyst would substitute Nickel for Platinum and Iron for Ruthenium. These metals are readily available at low cost. It happens though that these 2nd and 3rd transition metals do things that their first period cousins cannot, but some of these metals are extremely rare.

Chemists have managed the matter of using precious metal catalysts in rather efficient ways by using elaborate supports to increase surface area and catalyst turnover. It would probably surprise many people to know that the catalytic converter is actually American technology invented by General Motors (this was back in the days when Americans produced scientists as opposed to MBA's). Although the ability of Platinum to catalyze the decomposition of nitrogen oxides back to the elements and the oxidation of carbon monoxide to the dioxide had long been known, it was thought that the use of this metal would prove too expensive for use in automobiles. General Motor's chemists hit upon the idea of coating Aluminum oxide crystals, which have a huge surface area, with Platinum. Since the catalysis is a surface phenomenon, this effectively overcame the cost problem by providing a huge platinum surface for very little Platinum mass. The only difficulty was that phosphorous lead and sulfur tend to "poison" or inactivate the Platinum, and so it was necessary to reformulate gasoline so that it would be low in these elements. This was actually the original reason for the introduction of "lead-free" gasoline, not the toxicity of lead. (The introduction of lead free gasoline is an excellent example of how, protests and whining aside, it IS possible to introduce infrastructure changes via the creation of an appropriate regulatory environment or, better put, environmental regulations.)


Now back to Rhodium: The world supply of Rhodium, a very useful catalyst in many applications, especially those involving asymmetric synthesis, is about three metric tons per year, all of it obtained as impurities in other processed ores, particularly nickel ores in Ontario and as an impurity in Russian precious metal ores.

No thread is complete without a pro-nuclear energy remark from NNadir. Both Ruthenium and Rhodium are prominent fission products and are found in so called "nuclear waste." In the case of Ruthenium, more than ten percent of fissions of Uranium-235 by thermal neutrons result in the formation of a stable isotope of Ruthenium. In a few years, we will have accumulated about 75,000 metric tons of spent reactor fuel in this country, of which 3% actually represents fission products. This suggests that there is about 200 metric tons of Ruthenium available from this source. About three percent of fissions result in the single stable isotope of Rhodium, Rhodium-103. This means there is about 70 metric tons available from this source, equal to about 20 years worth of the current world supply.

Ruthenium and Rhodium are what I like to call "node elements" in the fission product series. These are elements that have no neutron rich radioactive isotopes that have half lives greater than two years. In the case of Ruthenium, the longest lived neutron rich radioactive isotope is Ruthenium-106, which has a half life of 367 days, whereupon it decays (via Rhodium-106) into the precious metal Palladium. The longest lived radioactive neutron rich isotope of Rhodium is Rh-105, which has a half life of about 35 hours, also decaying into Palladium. This means it is a relatively simple affair to isolate these elements, store them while they decay back to background, remove (and use) the Palladium if desired, and then use the Rhodium and Ruthenium industrially. This is not pie-in-the-sky stuff. The Japanese are already involved in scaling just such an adventure.

[phantom power]

7. definitely. part of my job is devising algorithms to help these guys

search solution space for better catalysts with cheaper metals. It's quite an interesting problem.

If only they realized what a genius I am, they'd all use my software...

[Wells]

8. Hybrid, not Hydrogen

If you want to be ahead of the pack on alternate energy, drop Hydrogen fuel cell, altogether. It's a waste of time.

Fuel cell development is directed mostly into the transportation field. The most advanced technology in that field is Hybrid, not Hydrogen. Get a clue!

Hybrids can run on any alternate (available, practical) fuel, including hydrogen. Any internal combustion engine paired with an electric generator/motor drive train, maximizes fuel efficiency, emission controls and engine longevity. Bio-diesel fuels are best run on a Hybrid drive train.

Hybrids are applicable to the entire vehicle fleet range, compact car to heavy frieght. Hydrogen is only applicable to light passenger, and will always have a limited mileage range.

Hybrid battery packs can be small or large. The larger the better, because its' low-centered weight improves stability and handling, a safety advantage lightweight hydrogen doesn't create.

Larger Hybrid battery packs can operate many miles without burning fuel at all, and be recharged via the electricity grid, rooftop solar panels, or other sources.

The batteries are a more reliable household energy supply than Hydrogen, which will not be practical to generate at household scale.

Battery development is another alternate energy source. Focusing on Hydrogen neglects a dozen alternate fuels and batteries. Get a clue!

General Motors is LYING to the country about the potential for Hydrogen fuel cell automobiles. GM's AUTOnomy prototype and its 'drive-by-wire' technology are CRAP !! Frickin' LEMONS !!

Get a clue, Hydrogen wonks! Or, sell out to GM and Bush.

No car, no matter how fueled, is sustainable technology. Transit, walking and bicycling infrastructure, along with development patterns that support these "alternate" means of living, are more important. These are solutions called 'conservation' or 'conserving'.

Give up on Frick'n Hydrogen. It's a Frick'n LIE !!

[NNadir]

9. This is not about a hydrogen fuel cell. This is a methanol fuel cell.

I agree with the statement that free hydrogen is a poor fuel; but I do not agree with the statement that fuel cells running on liquid fuels are unworthy of pursuit.

I don't particularly like methanol as a fuel because of its toxicity and the difficulty of removing it from water, but even so, it may prove that the advantages of using it (no fuel is perfect) may outweigh other alternatives.

[Wells]

10. Hydrogen/Methanol - Fuel cell BS

It's not surprising that even supplying a list of fuel cell drawbacks, its promoters continue heads buried in the sand.

George Bush dropped Hybrid for Hydrogen fuel cell research. What other proof is needed that fuel cells won't work?

In "Jimmy Nuetron", the cartoon feature movie, Jimmy and friends travel across the cosmos to an "advanced civilization", where its inhabitants have become so dependent upon MACHINES, they devolved into amoebic blobs, living entirely inside egg-shaped mobility devices with mechanical arms and voice boxes.

We don't need techno-fixes. We need to reduce our dependency upon machines. Frikkin' wonks. Go waste your money on techno-fix education. You can get a job as a professional blob.

[phantom power]

11. A hybrid engine is also a "techno-fix"

If you prefer hybrid engines over fuel-cell approaches, I pretty much agree, but that's a debate over what technologies are the most effective, which is quite different than a debate over reliance on technology in general.

[NNadir]

12. And you, I suppose, will be qualified to choose who dies when we

return to the preindustrial age.

I am not happy about the size of the human population, but the fact is that without technology, about 90% would have to agree to die within the next few years. I don't travel in the circles where 9 out 10 people are prepared to give up their lives for environmental sustainability, and I suspect that most other people don't either, although I'm not sure.

I really don't reason about the world from watching "Jimmy Neutron." It's television, and overall, I think television has a rather poor effect on thinking. By son watches it, and I try to point out to him from time to time that it is fantasy show written by artists with almost no understanding of science or technology.

[Wells]

13. Overpopulation is not the problem....

I do not advocate a return to pre-industrial civilization. I am no Luddite.

Hybrids simply should be recognized as the better vehicular technology. Their advantages in urban design and economic modeling is also under-reported.

Because the larger Hybrid battery pack can be recharged on the grid or rooftop photovoltiac, this will reduce fuel combustion, but only for limited distance driving; perhaps no more than 20 miles daily. This limitation influences urban development. If all driving is thus limited, more institutions and services must be located/built nearer to home, thus ushering in the return of Main Street economies. When services are located conveniently, they are accessible by walking, bicycling and mass transit. Driving distances are thus set to decrease even less, while encouraging other modes of travel.

The return of Main Street Economies should provide a production capability greater than today's 'over-mechanized' industrialization.

Jimmy Nuetron's 'advanced civiliation' metaphor makes the production more than child's play. The artists make a subtle political statement.

[NNadir]

14. Well, maybe Jimmy Neutron thinks population is not the problem,

but Jimmy Neutron, as I've said, is a television show.

I disagree. The reality is that if you turn off the heavy civil engineering projects, all of which are dependent on a heavy industrial technology, several billions of people will need to die immediately. Even so, these technological systems are stretched to the breaking point.

As for hybird vs something else, I think there is no spectacular difference. I stand by the statement that fuel cells with a liquid fuel (as opposed to hydrogen gas) may represent a real opportunity and should be investigated fully. I note that photovoltaics are still very expensive. If they were cheap and maybe a little more environmentally benign, they might have promise. As we noted on another thread, the world's largest photovoltaic system is 5 megawatts, one ten thousandth of the coal capacity the Chenyites are planning.

As for the social engineering in order to get everyone to live in urban centers and work around the corner from where they live, good luck. I've been hearing that one for decades, but the surburbs just keep getting bigger. I suppose that we could enforce a "cultural revolution" wherein people are force marched out of the suburbs and country and into the cities, in reverse of Mao's adventure, but I don't think this will necessarily have a utopian result. In principle, I think that conservation strategies are preferred; but the best one I can think of is family planning, a system wherein cultural, legal and financial sanctions are attached to indiscriminate breeding. The fact is that in many cases, large systems are able to minimize their environmental impact far better than local systems. There are for instance large powerplants that run on wood products that are much cleaner than fireplaces.

I've been forced to sit through Jimmy Neutron with my kids, and to be perfectly honest, my opinion is that it's about as political as, oh I don't know, a Brittany Spears concert.

[Wells]

15. Earth can easily support 30 billion

I am always offended by the Zero-population sentiment. Remember, these organizations evolved from, and are still influenced by eugenics. Aryan philosophy evolved from eugenics. The Bush's have long been promoters of eugenics. GHW Bush advocated 'Nuking' North Vietnam and population control while a congressman in the 60's. "Several billion people need to die immediately" is BS.

If you gave any thought to my earlier list of Hybrid technology advantages, you could not honestly say, "there is no spectacular difference". The Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle is a hoax, ladies and gentlemen. Photovoltiac solar panels are suitable for home power systems, and can recharge vehicle batteries as well, right now, today.

Consider a "Bell Curve" to chart mass-production/distribution efficiency. On the far left is home-based economies, too small to be efficient. On the far right is globalization, where efficiencies in production are lost in distribution and transport costs are passed onto the consumer. Somewhere near the middle of the Bell Curve, (highest efficiency), are regional and state economies.

There is no need for a mass relocation of suburbanites into urban cores. What suburban areas need most is to redevelop some single-purpose housing into localized centers to incorporate services, institutions, commercial and other economic essentials to reduce suburban dependence upon driving and long-distance travel for commuting and other purposes. Most of suburbia can remain intact.

In a Jimmy Nuetron TV episode, one of Jimmy's robot inventions casually wiped out a US military tank experimental prototype. Its' inventor 'wailed' at his failure. My friends watching didn't catch the political irony. "What's so funny about that?", they asked.
Just look a little deeper at the show. It's not all kidsy stuff. I'll bet your kids are more clued into Nuetron irony than you, bud.

[phantom power]

16. 30 billion? That's quite a claim. Can you explain how that would work?

[NNadir]

17. Oooh boy.

It gets betterer and betterer and betterer.

We got it all here folks, eugenics, nuking, bell curves, and Jimmy Neutron.

You know, I think I've got to get a little stricter with my kids than I've been in recent months about the amount of time they watch TV. It really does rot one's brain.

[Wells]

19. Get off your high horse, Jack.

NNadir, Get off your high horse. Your comments in no way dispel what I've said here. They only show your lack of imagination and intuition. I'm warning you - efforts toward fuel cell technology are worthless. Don't waste your time or your kid's future.

You want to insult me? I'll give it right back to you, ya jerk. Keep it up, and your kids may call you the same; learning to insult those with different opinions when your kid's opinions differ with yours. Stuff that in your pipe and smoke it.

[phantom power]

20. No offense, but this isn't the "intuition" forum, it's the science forum.

On that topic, I'm still hoping you will explain how you think that earth can support 30 billion people. ("easily")

Last I read, humanity's environmental footprint is about 1.2 earths, which is to say we're utilizing earth's resources, and natural recycling capacity, at about 1.2 times the rate that can actually be sustained.

Improved technology *may* improve that situation, or it may not. But that's how it stands today.

[Wells]

22. Scientist practice intuition with every theory

I should not have used the word 'easily' as an adjective for how Earth can support 30 billion, though I believe it is possible to support such a population.

I consider complaints about human population paired with presposterous theories how we might maintain impossible levels of motorization to be inhumane and/or immature.

I try to be civil, but when my viewpoints, my character and integrity are attacked, I will return fire with fire, or rather, insults with insults, always hoping however, that even that sort of discourse may prove educational.

Hybrid-drive technology is far superior to Hydrogen and other fuel cell technologies. I've posted a lengthy list of Hybrid advantages which should include and highlight how Hybrids have a more positive influence upon land-use and future development patterns that can reduce our need for long-distance travel, and incorporate other means of travel, walking, bicycling and mass transit. But somehow, I can't see NNadir showing an intuitive interest in that because remember, he's smart and I'm a dummy.

[NNadir]

21. Offense intended. Did you ever take a high school chemistry course

before presuming to offer investment advice and "warnings"? Why do I doubt that you can truthfully answer that question in the affirmative?

Do you know what a fuel cell IS? Is that covered on Jimmy Neutron?
By the way, do you know what a neutron is?

If I've insulted you though, I do apologize. You certainly don't need to be insulted by strangers. You do a pretty good job on your own.