Has ANYONE tried any of teh Hydrogen On Demand systems?

[Phred42]

There are several out there- this is one
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/hydrogen-generators-cars.htm

There are plans and kits and plug&play units out there.

These type of units do not replace gas but rather supplement it to increase over all mileage.

I keep looking for someone how has actually tried it - but no.

[wtmusic]

1. My city has a few cars modified this way

and I spoke to one of the people who drive them.

They are apparently very problematic. Do not save money, save a little gas, but don't work very well in general.

I'm sure they will be selling like hotcakes anyway.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. Probably won't find someone who....

admits to paying a grand or so for this gadget that might blow up his car.

Searched around for a while and didn't find any reliable reports about anyone using the thing, but did find several discussions about it with most people thinking it's a scam.

Yes, a car does produce electricity, and yes, that electricity can be used for electrolysis to create hydrogen. But (and it's a big BUT) you have to make sure that producing this electricity doesn't use more energy than it produces.

Over 3/4 of the energy in a gas tank is wasted as heat. Recapturing that heat with a turbine is one way to help things, but there's still a lot of wastage going on. Every time the alternator steps up its amperage, it puts an additional demand on the engine, albeit maybe a slight one, and the engines uses more fuel and creates more waste heat.

So, after you do all the math, you are using more energy in form of gas to create the hydrogen than you are creating energy in the form of hydrogen. Anything else would be close to a perpetual motion machine-- and we all know how those work out.

Even if there were some way to use the wasted energy to create hydrogen or something else, the mileage increase would be so minimal that it would take forever to recoup the thousand bucks or so these things cost.

Oh, btw, hydrogen and oxygen are normally created by the car's battery when it's being charged. Maybe, just maybe, there might be a way to collect that, but the amounts are so small there may be no point to it.

[skids]

5. The skepticism on this one is sophomoric...

...the object is not to generate energy from the hydrogen, just use it as a fuel additive to change the flash point of the fuel and make the petro burn more completely with more kinetic output and less waste heat. The extra energy is from the fuel, not the hydrogen, that is just working as something analogous to a catalyst.

Anyway, to the OP, these kits supposedly work better in diesels than on gasoline engines. You'd have to ask some truckers about the CHEC HFI system, since the smallest thing they will sell it for right now is a gigantic pickup truck.

I could easily see many of the other products being shams, and these days you are better off actually finding someone who has one and will attest to it working and let you take a gander under their hood and tell you what's involved in keeping it tuned right -- because a lot of the products that do work likely cut some corners and require some regular tweaking as they are not self regulating.

[tinrobot]

3. I seriously doubt that these devices work.

Just look at it from a pure energy standpoint.

Hydrogen is one of the least energy dense fuels, that's why hydrogen cars need very high pressure tanks. The amount of hydrogen produced by electrolyzing the few quarts of water in one of these things is minimal in comparison to the energy density of a tank of gas. In order for this device to "double" gas mileage as some people claim, you'd have to haul and electrolyze a LOT of water (25-50 gallons) just to get the equivalent energy of half a tank of gas. The sheer weight of all that water would lower fuel economy as well.

If I were to spend a thousand dollars to get better gas mileage, I wouldn't buy one of these. I'd put it into low rolling resistance tires, reducing weight, and increasing the aerodynamics of the car. Those changes would be a much better payoff than one of these.

[Speck Tater]

4. Totally bogus.

Every crisis brings out not only desperate fools eager to find a magic solution, but sharp con men eager to take money from those same fools.

I don't recall the issue, but either Popular Mechanics or Popular Science did a review of this kind of system about 4 or 5 years ago and found they reduced the horsepower of the engine and made mileage about 10% worse!

There's a sucker born every minute.

[skids]

6. .

http://chechfi.ca/dealer_information.htm#testresults

[Speck Tater]

7. Whatever. Guess you'd better rush right out and buy it. eh?

After all, they wouldn't say it on the Internet if it wasn't true, would they?

[skids]

8. I think you ought to look up...

...the organizations that performed those tests.

[cosmik debris]

9. These test results do not back up the claim of 10% increase

in fuel efficiency and there is a bunch of data missing. For example, one report posted page one and page 5 but skipped pages 2,3,& 4.

It is clear from reading these Test Results and Reports that they are woefully incomplete and inadequate to verify the claims made.

What's more, only the emissions tests are conducted by persons with no financial interest in the testing.

This is just plain sloppy science.

Game over, insert coins to play again.

[tinrobot]

10. Emissions Testing?

Most of these read like someone just brought these cars in for an emissions inspection. Measuring the emissions at the tailpipe does not measure mileage. Where exactly do they measure the part where you can significantly increase your gas mileage?

They do have some sort of bar graph about gas mileage, but there's no official report or data to back it up.

Meaningless... all of it.

[madokie]

11. All I've seen so far is its someones brother in laws friends cousin

I've had a couple people I know start telling me about these things but when it comes down to the nut cutting they can't produce anyone who actually has one. I say they are simply snake oil being hocked as hydrogen whatevers. The money saved is not going to be going to the one who buys it. And we all know how hard it is to get ones money back from someone who we've given it too too don't we,
so getting a refund is likely not to be once someone figures out that this thing is a piece of shit. I'll save my money and spend it directly for the gas as I fill the tank. Something tells me I'd go a lot further that way.

[Phred42]

12. Exactly

[bhikkhu]

13. Two friends of mine have working systems

The nuts and bolts friend is mostly interested in just getting the complex set-ups to work, and in measuring at some point whether there is any net gain in mileage, with all the hydrogen processing energies built in. The other is just along for the ride and doesn't really "get" the science.

I'd say it is very simple - as in every other hydrogen scheme, it takes about as much energy to generate hydrogen as you get by burning it. But when you have to generate hydrogen using the power of an engine running at 20% at best efficiency, then burn that hydrogen in the same 20% efficiency engine, what you have is primarily a big waste.

[Phred42]

14. But the point of these on deman systems

does not appear to be perpetual motion machines - it is to reduce your gas bill. Am I missing something?

The electricity to drive the process is 'free' - the car is generating it anyway. In fact it would appear that the generating capacity is wasted if not used in some way. - no?

If, for a couple of hundred dollars initial cost (if you build it yourself) you can generate enough supplemental fuel to reduce the amount you pay at the pump.... X% ......?

Even a 10% reduction in the gas bill would be a help.



Of course that's all assuming that the damn thing ACTUALLY works

[madokie]

15. The first time I read about this was several years ago

and when it was pointed out that it would take more energy to make the hydrogen than what would be gained then the argument changed to what they say today, that it somehow is a catalyst to make gasoline burn more, better or sum such shit. I'll be spending the money it would take to make or buy one of these directly in the fuel tank and I'll bet I'll go further than the folks buying or making one will with their little gadget.

[Phred42]

16. Maybe so - I'm just trying to get a clear pix of this system

You still didn't address the questions I asked.

[madokie]

18. the engine is spinning the alternator all the time its running

but making the energy that is used in one of these devices is not being made so when you start running a current through the apparatus then the energy is being made the load on the engine turning the alternator is going to increase. It takes for the most part an 8 hp gas engine to turn an auto altenator putting out a humdred amps. That I know but what I don't know is how much of an increase in power the hydrogen will give to the engine over what its making already. My suspicions is that with taking into account the loses incured when you change forms of energy production, gas engine to electric to make the hydrogen then burning the hydrogen to make more power that the net result would be a loss while using the hydrogen system. The apparatus I looked at the other day up reply here was using a 30 amp fuse so that tells me that it is more than likely pulling somewhere around 20 amps and 20 amps is a pretty good load too. I would like to see one so I could see for myself though.

[tinrobot]

17. The electricity is not free.

When the alternator is under load, it puts more load on the engine, thus using more gas.

[bhikkhu]

19. The electricity to drive the process is not free by any means

It is produced by the engine's alternator, which takes the mechanical energy of the gas-burning engine and converts it to electrical energy. If there is no demand on the alternator (corresponding to a lowering of voltage caused by draws on the system) it neither consumes mechanical energy or produces electrical energy. But if voltage drops are sensed, essentially meaning draws on the system or consumption of electrical energy, the alternator is designed to produce as much power as necessary (up to its capacity) by converting as much mechanical energy as it can. Run all of your electrical accessories and your mileage will decrease significantly because of the demands of the alternator.

I have heard that the electrical demand of the hydrogen generating system is about 10 amps, which is similar to the demand of the car headlights.

[tinrobot]

20. So maybe more efficient headlights...

...would actually give you better mileage than one of these things.

[Phred42]

22. Interesting thought

[Phred42]

21. In order for you explaination to work, the alternator would have to

change it's mechanical resistance on the engine (on the fly) to match the requested draw. Like in some sort of gearing system for example - I'm not an auto expert but .... that doesn't make sense.

admittedly I could be wrong about this.

[tinrobot]

23. Not gearing - magnetism

Magnets can create a lot of force. When an alternator is generating power, it creates a magnetic field, which in turn, creates the mechanical resistance that loads the engine.

Here's an experiment you can do at home (it also can be found at science museums like the Exploratorium in San Francisco) -- Take a hand powered generator and spin it with no load, then continue to spin and flip on a light bulb that's attached -- you'll instantly feel the resistance.

[Phred42]

26. TX - I didn't know this

[bhikkhu]

24. A brief explanation:

The alternator has two main parts - the rotor and the stator. The rotor has a coil at its core that produces a magnetic field when power is supplied to it, which spins as the rotor spins. The stator surrounds the rotor and is fixed to the case; the spinning magnetic field induces an electric current into the windings of the stator, which proceeds through wiring to power the vehicle's needs.

Power is supplied to the rotor by a voltage regulator which is preset to maintain a specific voltage in the system. Draws on the system reduce voltage, triggering the regulator to beef up the rotor's magnetic field, inducing more current into the stator and the vehicle's electrical system. There is a direct relation between the strength of the rotor's magnetic field and the mechanical energy needed to spin this field in a conductive environment - so basically the more electrical power you are using, the harder the engine is working.

[Phred42]

25. Interesting stuff - Tx!

[NNadir]

27. Wow. A perpetual motion machine!

One never tires of them. They're always fun.