On the verge of veganism

[LibInternationalist]

For those of you that think about this sort of thing (forgive me, I'm too poor at the moment to donate for access to the proper group :( ) - in an ideal world do you think that humans could consume eggs, dairy, honey, wool without causing harm to animals? Is it possible to, in effect, exchange food, shelter and security with the animal for products that they create? Is it conceivable that some animals might prefer that sort of arrangement?

I think it's obvious from my asking the question that I think the answer is "yes", but I don't have a strong conviction that way. I am, for what it's worth, very adamant about not participating in consumption that involves the killing of animals.

[madaboutharry]

1. There are a lot of websites

devoted to vegetarianism and veganism where you could get a great deal of information. Just use google.

Veganism seems extream to me, but maybe it will be the right thing for you.

[Jeep789]

2. I'd like to think so but we can't even get humans

to agree that not harming other humans is preferable.

[flvegan]

3. I'm a vegan and I think some of it's possible.

My mom tells me stories about the farm she grew up on. They had a few cows, bunch of chickens and other animals. The cows were free to open pasture and sun, as were the chickens. They were safe, secure, had shelter from the elements, medical treatment if needed. They were never tormented or driven or abused. The cows were hand-milked, the eggs were hand collected. Do I think there's anything wrong with that? Absolutely not. I think that when you're not trying to make money off of the animals, it's easier to not mistreat them.

Just as I think that someone with a garden is far better than how we treat the land for some of our frankenfood, I think someone with a small farm is probably far better than someone running any sort of larger scale operation. Granted, any farm, no matter the size is going to result in the death of animals. When they stop producing or get too old or sick, they'll have to go. If there's too much breeding, same result.

For the record, I'd still choose veganism over having my own small farm with a couple cows and chickens if for nothing else than the health reasons. One of the big reasons that I am vegan is that I refuse to put that crap in my body.

Good question.

[Muttocracy]

6. Sounds like my grandparents' farms. When I learned about modern factory farms

it took me a while to believe what I was seeing - nothing like the little family farms where the animals were highly valued.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

9. I agree

For example, our dogs' herding trainer runs a small sheep farm. He keeps about a hundred sheep. They're hair sheep, so they don't get sheared. They just shed. The sheep seem pretty damn content. They wander around, have plenty of nice grass to eat. The lambs bound over rocks fighting and playing around. He doesn't have electric fences or anything around the field, just wood fences and rock walls. He keeps Maremmar dogs to protect them and Border Collies to herd them. Both sheep and dogs seem to be pretty happy, especially the dogs.

[county worker]

4. There are many reasons to go veg or vegan but I recommend you do it for you.

Be prepared for a lot of questions about why you are doing it. Don't get on a soap box about it. Remember to eat the right things for your health.

Don't worry about what other people eat or think.

I've been a vegetarian for the last 15 years.

[ZombieHorde]

5. "Is it conceivable that some animals might prefer that sort of arrangement?"

I don't know if nonhuman animals think this way.

in an ideal world do you think that humans could consume eggs, dairy, honey, wool without causing harm to animals?

I don't know very much about collecting honey, but the other three could conceivably be done without harm.

[Dead_Parrot]

7. Interesting question

Certainly there are mutualistic relationships between animals - look at ants/aphids and clownfish/anemone. There's no particular reason why humans should be excluded, and some domesticated animals (I'm thinking chickens and sheep) would do pretty poorly in the wild.

IIRC, modern sheep actually get pretty unhappy if not shorn on a regular basis: keeping them in good conditions for wool only must come pretty close to mutualism.

[Enthusiast]

8. Don't eat meat! There, all fixed for you.

Who would want you to eat meat? I eat meat every day but you are welcome to eat what you prefer.

[LibInternationalist]

10. I'm already resolved not to eat meat

My question was about using animal-derived products that don't necessarily involve physically harming the animal.

[Kali]

11. depends on your definition of "harm"

most domestic animals (and I think that does include honeybees) have been bred to a state where they are indeed dependent on the husbandry of their caretakers - they are not adapted to survive on their own.

Do they occasionally need to be restrained or in some other way made to do things they don't want to do? Of course. But then that happens to pets and small children too. It usually is for their ultimate good but at the moment it may be stressful.

And by the way, the same can be true for meat animals too. There is no reason for them to suffer. A good healthy life and a fast painless end are perfectly easy to accomplish.

[Tumbulu]

12. I think so, but it is nearly impossible if the farmer expects to be profitable

I have a small farm; I am an organic plant breeder. I took in flock of wool sheep that were all going to be sent to slaughter 9 years ago. I try my best to treat them as I would my pets. So, even though they are not friendly to me, I am devoted to them. I hope that they have a good life, as I sure do try.

There are actually quite a few people like me who have taken sheep or goats or other domesticated animals meant for slaughter who try to cover their expenses by selling the wool either as yarn or stuffing. I have yet to have the yarn or wool actually cover their expenses.

I sometimes wonder if it is a mental illness- animal dependency. There seem to be many of us- you can find us hanging around feed stores. The animals are usually horses and dogs, but there are plenty like me who just end up with a flock of sheep or goats.

So, I need to get the wool off of the sheep every year or they will be too hot. I pay twice the price for normal shearing so that the shearer will go slowly and not cut them by accident. I cannot take their tails off, so I have to pay extra to have the wool shorn from their tails in the winter so they do not get fly strike. Rams break down fences and even though you get them separated in a few hours- in 5 months time you have 20 lambs- just like that.

There are two farm sanctuaries near me that also do this (they sell the wool to help pay the the expenses). But even selling the wool for very high prices has not so far covered the expenses. They are not a practical business, at least not the way I take care of them. Everyone tells me that to make money you have to sell the meat. But wool sheep are too small, meat breeds of sheep are much larger and generally have bad wool. And I took the sheep to spare them from this fate. Most everyone who raises a small flock of wool sheep is in the same boat. They start out with some business plan that sounds reasonable. Then after a few years they find out that the sheep cost more that the wool sells for. Then they either keep the sheep accepting the fact that they are attached to them or they try to give them away to someone like me or a proper farm sanctuary.

My neighbors produce organic veggies and real pasture grown organic eggs. The operation is fabulous. 800 chickens roaming an acre of tall greens grown just for them: a new acre every week. At $6/dozen they still are not breaking even. But the owners love the chickens too much and keep justifying them as soil improvers, etc. The real thing is that they seem to need those chickens in the same way that I have become dependent on the sheep. Despite the fact that it costs me money to raise them, I do. There are people who do not feel complete unless they are living with animals. I am one of these.

I had an old cousin who used to give his farm animals free run of his house. Every chicken, sheep, mule and cow knew it's name and would come in and out of the house as it wished. It was really shocking and very messy, but I loved going over there. Right now I have a lamb I am bottle feeding who pounds on my door to be fed. He has figured out how to get through three different gates and runs right past the sheepdog, up stairs and then to the door. When I open the door up, he trots to the refrigerator and baa's. It is the cutest thing in the world, really.

And so people do sell these wools usually directly (on line). There are even sheep adoptions where you pay the cost of the sheep's feed and then you get it's fleece every year (this is popular if you are a handspinner) and commit to this for the life of the sheep...maybe 12 years or so.