Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Is there a market for a synthetic tree that can move around?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 08:32 PM
Original message
Is there a market for a synthetic tree that can move around?
Edited on Mon Apr-13-09 09:27 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2009/04/13/13climatewire-is-there-a-market-for-a-synthetic-tree-that-10510.html
April 13, 2009

Is there a market for a synthetic tree that can move around?

By JESSICA LEBER, ClimateWire

When you get Klaus Lackner, a scientist at Columbia University, talking about his work, he sounds a bit like a traveling salesman. His product seems at first to be infeasible, but as he describes it, it moves to the feasible and then to a must-have item.

Ten years ago, no one, Lackner included, really believed it could be possible to efficiently capture and remove carbon dioxide directly from the atmosphere. Today, the idea is still widely considered a far-fetched option for addressing climate change.

But as emissions climb and as global climate targets look increasingly difficult and expensive to meet, it is, to some, one of the only options that could someday turn back the hands of time.

What is needed is a machine that can actually reduce the concentration of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. What's wrong with real trees that can't move around?
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Nothing's /wrong/ with them, they're just not up to the task.
Edited on Mon Apr-13-09 09:36 PM by OKIsItJustMe


Technology isn't the only way to pull C02 out of the air; planting or saving a tree will do it, too. So might some rock formations that react with the gas. But the flat slats of Lackner's "atmospheric carbon capture systems" -- often likened to artificial trees -- are designed to be more efficient collectors than real leaves because they can ignore the photosynthesis part.



Some prominent climate scientists, such as NASA's James Hansen and Columbia's Wallace Broecker, have indeed called for more serious attention paid to air capture research because they are alarmed at the ever-shrinking timetable left for reducing emissions.



How far would you like to reduce atmospheric CO2 levels, how quickly?

Last time around, it took an intact ecosystem about 100,000 years to lower CO2 levels from about 280ppm to about 180ppm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
islandmkl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. all i know is that those trees that move around cause my dog a lot of aggravation...
he seems to be adverse to pissing onto 'air'....

he gives you that look, like '...you find a nice tree, lift your leg...and BAM!! the goddam tree moves over a couple of feet...i might as well just piss on the grass...'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cobalt-60 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-13-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Triffid security beats ADT hands down
They digest the intruders too!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Excellent carbon sequestration!
Tax breaks may be in order.

--d!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
7. He works on the Barnum principle.
> When you get Klaus Lackner, a scientist at Columbia University,
> talking about his work, he sounds a bit like a traveling salesman.

That's exactly what he is - a snake-oil salesman at that.


> Lackner and Global Research Technologies LLC (GRT),
> the company that he co-founded to develop the patents and commercialize
> the process to do this, are now raising capital for a full-scale prototype
> ... which they plan to have up and running ... within three years.

> But it won't be until scientists develop actual sequestration projects
> to store CO2 over the long haul that carbon capture of any kind ... will
> really get off the ground.

> From oil wells to remote sites where carbon may be one day locked away
> deep in the ground,

:boring:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Just curious
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 08:50 AM by OKIsItJustMe
Do you recommend doing anything? or do you just mock those who do?
http://www.seas.columbia.edu/earth/lacknerCV.html
http://www.physorg.com/news96732819.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/0302/03.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/environment/jan-june06/globalwarming_06-08.html

In my view, we can sit and do nothing, and watch it all go down the tubes, or we can start exploring alternatives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Probably more than you wanted to satisfy your curiosity ...
> Do you recommend doing anything? or do you just mock those who do?

Yes, I recommend doing things that are real rather than green-painted scams.

I'm not sure if you intended posting his CV as an appeal to authority
that would shut me up but it backfires a little ...

>> He has been instrumental in forming ZECA, the Zero Emission Coal Alliance,
>> which is an industry-led effort to develop coal power with zero emissions
>> to the atmosphere. His recent work is on environmentally acceptable
>> technologies for the use of fossil fuels.

He is a paid apologist for the coal industry who has a direct financial
interest in getting his wonderful CO2 extraction technique funded up to
the prototype level so that his backers can continue "normal business".


> Do you recommend doing anything? or do you just mock those who do?

I mock those who swallow coal-industry propaganda & misdirection and who
allow it to divert funding from known, proven technologies (solar, wind,
whatever) in addition to providing yet another suit of Emperor's clothes
for the greedy liars that want to maintain the facade of "endless growth
is good". I mock those who generate that propaganda and also those who
willingly embrace this greenwash as a step in sating their own greed.


> In my view, we can sit and do nothing, and watch it all go down the
> tubes, or we can start exploring alternatives.

We have been exploring alternatives for decades but the biggest obstacle
is not technology but politics - the politics that is funded by the people
who will lose profits if the general public actually wake up to the real
state of the environment that is being so carefully hidden from them.

I haven't recommended that we "sit and do nothing" (except possibly in
a particularly doom-laden or manically flippant moment when I simply
want the coming collapse to happen as soon as possible so that it will
affect the bastards who have caused it rather than two generations down
the line).

I am definitely against pie-in-the-sky schemes like this, like space-based
PV "power stations", like "let's dump scrap iron into the sea in case it
helps", like "spraying sulphur dioxide into the air will help with the
albedo problems" and other such shit that is primarily aimed at two targets:
the first is to make the proponent rich and the second is to allow everyone
else to merrily continue in their usual greed-driven & wasteful way without
having to worry their beautiful minds about the true cost.

My strongest support goes for things that cut down our grossly wasteful
lifestyle (not just in terms of energy) and for the changes in behaviour
that will stop the propagation of such waste.

Following on from this, I want the public to be woken up so that they
choose to implement the already available solutions rather than just
go "Wow!" at the latest bullshit announcement from "authorities".

I support wind farms. I support solar hot water. I support PV where suitable
(and yes, this specifically includes isolated Third World villages as well
as factory/office roofing in the West). I support ground source heat pumps.
I support geothermal generation. I support solar thermal concentrators.
I support draught-proofing. I support insulation (cavity wall, loft, floor).
I support Energy Star appliances. I support switching things OFF rather than
yet another lazy-ass standby mode that dribbles away energy.

All of these things are *REAL* alternative technologies that work *NOW*.

I also support the increase in efficiency of these existing alternatives
(i.e., the ones that have already got past their "please pay me to try
making a working prototype" stage) and so ongoing research in all of these
areas is very important (i.e., not supporting "sitting still" at all).

These are the things that need funding from governments to get them to
their people - not bright shiny new "magic bullet" projects but getting
hands dirty deploying proven solutions.

(BTW, I know I can get vitriolic about these things but I am not aiming
at you, the messenger, merely at the well-funded brick walls that people
keep building to hide the existence of the cliff-edge that we're racing
towards.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. OK, thanks
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:37 AM by OKIsItJustMe
I believe:
  1. We need to inform people of the tremendous risks we face.
  2. We know longer have time for society to wake up to the risks.
  3. We need to be looking out for alternatives, including geo-engineering.

I am a great fan of every single one of the alternatives you've mentioned, as well as conservation. However, I believe the following essay is a good wake-up call.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/189293

We Can’t Get There From Here

Political will and a price on CO2 won't be enough to bring about low-carbon energy sources.

Published Mar 14, 2009
From the magazine issue dated Mar 23, 2009

By all means, swap out your regular light bulbs for compact fluorescents, take the bus, weatherize your home and install solar panels on your roof. Oh, heck, go crazy: tell your senators to give the nuclear industry everything it wants so it starts building reactors again. But while you're doing all that to reduce the world's energy use and cut emissions of greenhouse gases, keep this in mind: even if we scale up existing technologies to mind-bending levels, such as finishing one nuclear plant every other day for the next 40 years, we'll still fall short of how much low-carbon energy will be needed to keep atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide below what scientists now recognize as the point of no return.

As the world gets closer to a consensus that we need to slash CO2 emissions, a debate is raging over whether we can achieve the required cuts by scaling up existing technologies or whether we need "transformational" scientific breakthroughs. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which assesses the causes, magnitude and impacts of global warming, said in 2007 that "currently available" technologies and those on the cusp of commercialization can bring enough zero-carbon energy online to avoid catastrophic climate change. And I regularly get reports from renewable-energy and environmental groups arguing that off-the-shelf technologies, fully deployed, can get us there. In the opposite corner is the Department of Energy, which in December concluded that we need breakthroughs in physics and chemistry that are "beyond our present reach" to, for instance, triple the efficiency of solar panels; DOE secretary Steven Chu has said we need Nobel caliber breakthroughs.

That is also the view of energy chemist Nate Lewis of the California Institute of Technology. "It's not true that all the technologies are available and we just need the political will to deploy them," he says. "My concern, and that of most scientists working on energy, is that we are not anywhere close to where we need to be. We are too focused on cutting emissions 20 percent by 2020—but you can always shave 20 percent off" through, say, efficiency and conservation. By focusing on easy, near-term cuts, we may miss the boat on what's needed by 2050, when CO2 emissions will have to be 80 percent below today's to keep atmospheric levels no higher than 450 parts per million. (We're now at 386 ppm, compared with 280 before the Industrial Revolution.) That's 80 percent less emissions from much greater use of energy.

Lewis's numbers show the enormous challenge we face. The world used 14 trillion watts (14 terawatts) of power in 2006. Assuming minimal population growth (to 9 billion people), slow economic growth (1.6 percent a year, practically recession level) and—this is key—unprecedented energy efficiency (improvements of 500 percent relative to current U.S. levels, worldwide), it will use 28 terawatts in 2050. (In a business-as-usual scenario, we would need 45 terawatts.) Simple physics shows that in order to keep CO2 to 450 ppm, 26.5 of those terawatts must be zero-carbon. That's a lot of solar, wind, hydro, biofuels and nuclear, especially since renewables kicked in a measly 0.2 terawatts in 2006 and nuclear provided 0.9 terawatts. Are you a fan of nuclear? To get 10 terawatts, less than half of what we'll need in 2050, Lewis calculates, we'd have to build 10,000 reactors, or one every other day starting now. Do you like wind? If you use every single breeze that blows on land, you'll get 10 or 15 terawatts. Since it's impossible to capture all the wind, a more realistic number is 3 terawatts, or 1 million state-of-the art turbines, and even that requires storing the energy—something we don't know how to do—for when the wind doesn't blow. Solar? To get 10 terawatts by 2050, Lewis calculates, we'd need to cover 1 million roofs with panels every day from now until then. "It would take an army," he says. Obama promised green jobs, but still.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I think we agree on more than we disagree on.
> 3. We need to be looking out for alternatives, including geo-engineering.

Probably just that one word really! :-)

I remember reading that "We Can’t Get There From Here" essay when
it was posted and no, I don't disagree with its figures or its
conclusions.

The main issue I have is with the deliberate manipulation of the
(largely) ignorant public by politicians and vested interests so
that quick but huge profits will be taken from the public purse
with the ever-present "justification" of "desperate times require
desperate measures" - the cry of tyrants throughout history, very
few of whom have ever suffered from the negative results of their
actions.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
11. Triffids!!!!! RUN!!!! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
12. The Ents of Fangorn Forest would soundly approve I'm sure.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC