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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-19-09 08:50 PM Original message |
Is there any point in fighting to stave off industrial apocalypse? |
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the other one (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Aug-19-09 09:00 PM Response to Original message |
1. k & r |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 12:58 AM Response to Original message |
2. The imminent collapse of civilization... |
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14thColony (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 05:52 AM Response to Reply #2 |
4. More like four thousandth... |
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TheWraith (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 11:28 AM Response to Reply #4 |
8. Yup. It's sexy to predict Armageddon. nt |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 02:46 PM Response to Reply #2 |
11. Yeah, ridiculous! Heh heh heh |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:47 PM Response to Reply #2 |
34. It does sell books. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 05:14 AM Response to Original message |
3. This is the first time I've thought Monbiot was on the wrong side of an argument |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:45 AM Response to Reply #3 |
6. Naturally I have a different view |
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pscot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 08:57 PM Response to Reply #3 |
26. This would seem to bolster at least one of Monbiot's |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 07:26 AM Response to Original message |
5. From Paul Kingsnorth's "Dark Mountain Project" |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 01:55 PM Response to Reply #5 |
9. Re: #3 -- The "Myth" of Progress? |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 02:00 PM Response to Reply #9 |
10. No, the "myth of progress" is shorthand. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 03:13 PM Response to Reply #10 |
13. Thank you from the SFRTWM* |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 04:42 PM Response to Reply #10 |
14. There is also the myth of Social Collapse, too |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 04:56 PM Response to Reply #14 |
15. Absolutely. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 05:27 PM Response to Reply #15 |
16. Very odd that you admit that |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 05:39 PM Response to Reply #16 |
17. My admission is based on a particular usage of the word |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 07:08 PM Response to Reply #17 |
23. Disagree |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 09:26 PM Response to Reply #23 |
28. How about looking at it from a slightly different angle? |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:45 PM Original message |
Narrating your narrative |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:26 AM Response to Original message |
36. Empirical evidence determines the truth eventually |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 07:30 AM Response to Reply #36 |
37. Your examples are predictions, not cultural naratives. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 10:02 AM Response to Reply #37 |
38. Narratives can be objectively judged however |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 10:12 AM Response to Reply #38 |
39. Only if you can say the migration was due to the difference in narratives |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 11:37 AM Response to Reply #39 |
41. Question |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 11:57 AM Response to Reply #41 |
43. Well, I'd say it was objective. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 02:58 PM Response to Reply #43 |
47. It seems to me you are playing semantic games |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:37 PM Response to Reply #47 |
51. Yes. Subjective statements have to do with values, objective ones with facts. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:57 PM Response to Reply #51 |
54. Thanks |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:54 PM Response to Reply #51 |
62. Actually, "human activity is causing species extinctions" is a subjective value statement. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:20 PM Response to Reply #62 |
67. The concern about anthropogenic extinctions is a value statement |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:34 PM Response to Reply #67 |
72. The value statement is implicit. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 11:57 AM Response to Reply #38 |
42. "Objectivity" is a belief |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 02:37 PM Response to Reply #42 |
46. Then discussion is pointless |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:50 PM Response to Reply #46 |
60. Science is about knowing what we can with the evidence we have available. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:18 PM Response to Reply #60 |
66. Absolutely |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:38 PM Response to Reply #66 |
76. I consider the whole modern scientific shaman a result of the proprietarian monopolistic corporate.. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:49 PM Response to Reply #46 |
84. Truly poignant |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:46 PM Response to Reply #42 |
59. Utter non-sense. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:26 PM Response to Reply #59 |
70. Making sense |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:36 PM Original message |
Well, you obviously do give some weight to empirical evidence. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:37 PM Response to Reply #70 |
75. That's an excellent destiniction: describing vs. explaining. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:39 PM Response to Reply #75 |
77. Actually, "how fast does it accelerate" is directly answered by "why does it fall"... |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:40 PM Response to Reply #77 |
78. OK, tell me why it falls. /nt |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:48 PM Response to Reply #78 |
82. All mass emparts a gravitional field. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:03 PM Response to Reply #82 |
88. And why does it do that? |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:10 PM Response to Reply #88 |
90. Well, we don't quite know. But the Higgs Boson is thought to empart that mass. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 06:03 PM Response to Reply #16 |
20. You "myth" the point entirely |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 06:04 PM Response to Reply #16 |
21. Lexical note |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 06:30 PM Response to Reply #16 |
22. "Myth" may not be the best word, but GliderGuider is an agreeable chap |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 12:17 PM Response to Reply #22 |
44. OED rocks -- thanks for the ref |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:12 PM Response to Reply #44 |
49. The American Heritage also "rocks" but for different reasons. |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 06:03 PM Response to Reply #14 |
19. Of course, you do agree that societies have collapsed (right?) |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 07:11 PM Response to Reply #19 |
24. Of course |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 09:03 PM Response to Reply #24 |
27. So if 1000000 people say their society may collapse, and it does |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 09:51 PM Response to Reply #27 |
30. No |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 11:27 AM Response to Reply #24 |
40. I'll ignore the hyperbole |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:08 PM Response to Reply #40 |
48. That is an extemely debatable subject |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:50 PM Response to Reply #48 |
52. Actually, that's not a bad model |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:19 PM Response to Reply #52 |
55. I would dispute one of your givens |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:46 PM Response to Reply #55 |
58. It's only true, if we make a fundamental change |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:21 PM Response to Reply #58 |
68. A Ridiculous Hypothetical |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:04 PM Response to Reply #68 |
89. I thought that went without saying (i.e. that it was a ridiculous hypothetical) |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 09:44 PM Response to Reply #89 |
106. The transition can be done extremely quickly. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 09:53 PM Response to Reply #89 |
107. The need for speed is overrated |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 10:39 PM Response to Reply #107 |
108. You have to appreciate, though, the level at which industrial agriculture is dependent... |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-22-09 11:20 AM Response to Reply #108 |
110. Except that "temperatures going up and sea level rise" are not the only things to watch out for |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-22-09 11:30 AM Response to Reply #110 |
112. Droughts are solved technologically far far easier than mass migrations due to sea level rise. |
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OKIsItJustMe (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-22-09 12:43 PM Response to Reply #112 |
113. "technologically capable societies" unlike Texas for example |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:52 PM Response to Reply #48 |
53. The "too big to fail" argument? |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:26 PM Response to Reply #53 |
56. Let's get specific |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:51 PM Response to Reply #56 |
61. Clarifications |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:32 PM Response to Reply #61 |
71. Ok |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:46 PM Response to Reply #71 |
81. You may be thinking America-centrically. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 07:28 PM Response to Reply #81 |
99. You specified the US and Europe, not me |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 07:46 PM Response to Reply #99 |
100. Just with reference to the importation of consumer goods |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:08 PM Response to Reply #53 |
64. Note that consumer goods are not necessities, and that the US provides a great deal of the worlds... |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:26 PM Response to Reply #64 |
69. The wealthy and powerful states are also the most dependent on complexity. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:43 PM Response to Reply #69 |
79. Define failure |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:51 PM Response to Reply #79 |
85. Pole shift + loss of magnetic field + huge solar storm. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:00 PM Response to Reply #79 |
87. It doesn't need to be a permanent failure. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:48 PM Response to Reply #87 |
97. That was life before the breakup of AT&T |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 07:20 PM Response to Reply #97 |
98. Yeah, those systems theorists... |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 07:48 PM Response to Reply #98 |
101. It's not a question of theory |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:49 PM Response to Reply #69 |
83. The same thing that happened during the 2003 power failure. |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:36 PM Response to Reply #64 |
74. Completely Agree |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:46 PM Response to Reply #74 |
80. Africa, parts of Central America and South America, China, some Asian countries. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:12 PM Response to Reply #80 |
91. That's your scenario, |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:17 PM Response to Reply #91 |
93. Feel free to throw out a better scenario. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:28 PM Response to Reply #93 |
95. Well, to start with |
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Nederland (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 08:25 PM Response to Reply #95 |
102. Global Warming will change that |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 09:08 PM Response to Reply #102 |
104. Exactly, the artctic circle disappearts, the whole grain belt moves up to North and South Dokata. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:29 PM Response to Reply #5 |
57. A quick response to these (non-)"principles" |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:08 PM Response to Reply #57 |
65. If I may say something |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:59 PM Response to Reply #65 |
86. Meh, I'm only spending today responding, I've spent the last week watching this thread. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:23 PM Response to Reply #86 |
94. Yes, I did stereotype you, and I apologize for that. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 09:02 PM Response to Reply #94 |
103. That's why I hate the collapse scenario very much. |
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Kablooie (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:50 AM Response to Original message |
7. Personally, I'm waiting on tenterhooks for the arrival of the four hearsemen of the apocryphalypse. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 03:04 PM Response to Original message |
12. Gentle reminder to George M about billions perishing |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 05:44 PM Response to Reply #12 |
18. In their drive towards their agenda most people miss that little fact. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:47 PM Response to Reply #18 |
33. Most of the 100+ billion who have gone before us wouldn't know. |
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Terry in Austin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 12:24 PM Response to Reply #33 |
45. Completing that thought |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:16 PM Response to Reply #45 |
50. Nah, I've tried the whole Chris McCandless thing. |
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pscot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 08:49 PM Response to Original message |
25. I don't find Kingsnorth's "soft landing" |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 09:34 PM Response to Reply #25 |
29. I see lots of evidence that Kingsnorth is on the right track. |
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pscot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:33 PM Response to Reply #29 |
31. I agree that the techno socio political |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 03:15 AM Response to Reply #31 |
35. In normal times that's true. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 04:56 PM Response to Reply #35 |
63. That mechanism is collapse, right? |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 05:35 PM Response to Reply #63 |
73. No, actually it's not. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:15 PM Response to Reply #73 |
92. You mean green capitalism? |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 06:30 PM Response to Reply #92 |
96. No, I most assuredly do not. |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Fri Aug-21-09 09:27 PM Response to Reply #96 |
105. I would definitely read it if I could find it without having to pay money for it. :( |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-22-09 06:39 AM Response to Reply #105 |
109. The on-line reviews give a very good sense of what it's about |
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joshcryer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-22-09 11:28 AM Response to Reply #109 |
111. Let me ask you though, geniune question here. |
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GliderGuider (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sat Aug-22-09 01:23 PM Response to Reply #111 |
114. It's a very good question. |
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DU GrovelBot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Thu Aug-20-09 10:45 PM Response to Original message |
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