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Million Solar Roofs Bill – SB 1 – Passes Key Policy Committee 10 to 0

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:54 PM
Original message
Million Solar Roofs Bill – SB 1 – Passes Key Policy Committee 10 to 0
Bi-partisan votes cast for California's landmark solar power bill

http://www.ems.org/nws/2005/04/26/million_solar_ro

April 26, 2005

Sacramento – The Million Solar Roofs Bill, SB 1, co-authored by State Senators Kevin Murray (D-Los Angeles) and John Campbell (R-Orange County), passed its first policy committee, Senate Energy, Utilities, and Commerce, today by a vote of ten to zero. The committee has eleven members total.

“Today’s vote shows that legislators on both sides of the aisle agree that solar power is a common-sense solution to California’s energy and air pollution problems,” said Bernadette Del Chiaro, Clean Energy Advocate with Environment California, a non-profit environmental group with more than 80,000 members statewide and leading supporter of the bill.

A broad-based coalition of businesses, environmental, and consumer groups testified in favor of the Million Solar Roof’s initiative at today’s committee hearing. The main opposition to the bill came from the electric utilities, with the strongest opposition coming from Southern California Edison.

<more>

City of Irvine Endorses The Million Solar Roofs Bill, SB 1

April 28, 2005

http://www.ems.org/nws/2005/04/29/city_of_irvine_e

Irvine– At its regularly scheduled meeting this week, the Irvine City Council voted unanimously to endorse the Million Solar Roofs Bill, SB 1. Irvine is the second California city to officially endorse the bill. The City of Santa Cruz City endorsed SB 1 last month.

Co-authored by Senator Kevin Murray (D-Los Angeles) and Senator John Campbell (R-Orange County), the Million Solar Roofs bill, SB 1, would make California the world’s largest market for solar power, aiming to build half of all new homes with solar panels and installing 3,000 MW of solar power over the next ten years.

<snip>

Key elements of SB 1 include:

· Expands rebates for homeowners and businesses to install solar panels on a million roofs over ten years,

· Expands the rights of solar owners to capture excess power generated by their solar system through credits on their electric bill,

· Requires large housing developers to offer solar, along side marble counter tops, to new homebuyers,

· Provides additional funding for low-income and affordable housing and couples solar with efficiency.

“SB 1 is the biggest solar program in the country,” said Bernadette Del Chiaro, clean energy advocate for Environment California, the lead supporter of the bill. “It’s great to see Irvine showing their support.

<more>

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and Senator Katherine Laforge Share a Common Goal

April 21, 2005

http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/4/emw231702.htm

Gov. Schwarzenegger, among other high-ranking leaders, have demonstrated that they share many of the alternative energy views espoused by Senator Katherine Laforge on the urgent need to move away from our reliance on OPEC oil.

Ventura, CA (PRWEB) April 21, 2005 -- With oil prices at near-record highs this week, Senator Katherine Laforge, took the opportunity to speak out about the positive actions California has embarked upon to be more energy self reliant and less dependent on foreign oil. The energy issue is a major concern in California as indicated by numerous power outages and the fact that they have the highest average gas price of any state in the union.

Sen. Katherine Laforge praised Governor Schwarzenegger for his pledge to move towards creating “one million solar

<more>

Looks like this is going to happen...




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slor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great news...
This is how it must be done folks!
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evlbstrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. California leads the way!
If only this were national policy-again!
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. And, it's going to create a TON of new jobs...
woooo hoooo!!!!

:)
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Vogon_Glory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. Fingers Also Crossed For Better Fuel Cells
My fingers are also crossed for newer fuel cell designs that run on fuels like ammonia instead of hydrogen gas. The thought of tens of thousands of consumers with backup fuel cell generators capable of resisting a neo-Enron blackout should darken the day of at least one of Enron's pirate traders.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. The usual: All promise, no delivery.
Even after Enron, the solar industry is more famous for saying what it is going to do than for what it has actually delivered.

When I lived in California three decades ago we would hear all the time about how California would go solar "within a decade."

Now here, right out the mouths of solar power advocates we hear,

"The goal is to have 3,000 megawatts worth of solar power by 2018, which amounts to about 5 percent of the state's entire electricity usage at peak periods – generally hot summer afternoons when electricity is most in demand, most expensive, and when solar panels are most efficient."

http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2005/02/alternative-energy-california-million.html

3,000 Megawatts, after what will be, by then, almost 50 years of crowing about the promise of solar power in the "Sunshine State?!?"

If all we can get is 3000 megawatts (and this at the PEAK of daylight) in a state that has vast expanses of cloudless deserts, I think somebody is missing something (or smoking something) somewhere when they pretend that solar energy is going to address the realities of our international CRISIS situation.

Whatever power can be generated by solar means is a plus for the environment when compared to coal, and one should be happy for whatever little we can get from it. However anyone who thinks that this little bit of Schwarzenegger approved window dressing is going to do anything about the critical, serious (as in SERIOUS) environmental/energy CRISIS we face NOW, (as in NOW!!!!!) either is a dope or is high on dope.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. As much as solar is hyped up, it is still growing at double digit rates.
Isn't it?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. and the cost of PV is declining by 5% a year.
This is huge.

America's share of the global PV market has been declining.

Even though the US exports half of the PV modules it produces each year, Japan and Germany are still kicking our ass.

This law will reverse that trend - Big Time - and further accelerate the decline in PV module prices...

:)
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. It's growing, but there are limits to it's effectiveness.
Even in the southwest, the economic payoff isn't yet viable for your average homeowner. And the southwest is as close to ideal for solar as it will ever get.

I think it makes a good niche application for southwestern rooftops, particulary grid-tied, where there isn't the significant added expense of storage systems. It should be excellent for supplementing peak-load requirements, since afternoon is by far our peak load around here.

As fossil fuel power gets more expensive (prices are going up 7% this summer for the Salt River Project in AZ), and PV prices fall, I think it will sooner or later get big in the southwest, but I'm dubious about the rest of the country.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Solar works just fine "up North"
According to the Maine Solar Energy Association there are more than 1000 solar homes in the state - and the number is growing every year...

http://www.off-grid.net/index.php?p=317

http://www.oja-services.nl/iea-pvps/cases/usa_04.htm

http://www.midcoast.com/~jgs/

The solar panels that once graced the White House (THANK YOU JIMMY CARTER!!! and FUCK YOU REAGAN!!!!) ended up at Unity College in central Maine...

http://www.northernskynews.com/backissue%20pages/UnitySolar.html

Even the Bush Bunker in Kennebunkport has solar hot water panels (but you can only see them from the ocean side of the place)...(scroll down)....

http://www.solarhouse.com/news.htm

Solar energy works everywhere in the Lower 48...

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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Definitely, more power to them (pun intended).
I realize it works, but how many of those projects will pay for themselves?

Maybe they know something I don't, but I looked into a grid-tied PV setup down here in Phoenix, and the payoff time I got was 10 years. That's in a desert with 300 cloudless days per year. Where peak performance is exactly when energy is most expensive, And energy use is greatest in the summer, when days are longest. So I'd be saving just about as much money as it's possible to save.

I'm sure somewhere out there, there are payoff figures for the northeast, but they simply have to be significantly worse than for Phoenix. They have half the sunny days we do, and their need for energy is greatest in the winter, when days are generally *more* cloudy, and also the shortest. Up there it makes much more sense to include storage capacity, but that adds to the cost.

Last time I looked it up, a PV array lasts about 20 years. So the payoff time has to be <= 20 years, just to break even. That's gotta be right on the hairy edge in the northeast.

That's for PV. The economics are better for passive technologies, and water heating.
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Demand excedes supply for silicon right now.
So the price of solar panels is a bit high right now. If I browse the web I used to be able to find solar panels for $3.10 to $3.25 a watt in bulk prices. Now I can't find them much lower than $4.00.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. In states that have a rebate program, the payback is rapid
For off-grid homes, the payback is immediate - grid electricity doesn't make economic sense from the get-go...

In New Jersey, a 2 kW PV system after rebate costs ~$5k. Over the 25 year warranty period for the modules, that comes out to $200 per year or ~$16 a month.

While virtually all PV modules sold today have 25 year warranties (that is, they are guaranteed to produce 80% of their rated output for 25 years) they have an estimated 75 year useful life span.

PV and solar hot water systems are also pretty desirable home improvements that enhance the value of the homes that have them.

So in states that have good solar rebate programs, the economics make sense today.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. If the economics made sense, there wouldn't be any problem would there?
People would be rushing out to buy solar systems, and we wouldn't need bills from the California legislature and big cheers for the same.

If it was so economical, we wouldn't be hearing about how in 2018 a huge whopping 3,000 Megawatts of capacity is some glorious goal. (During the day. At noon. When there are no clouds. When it's not raining. When dust storms aren't blowing. When the smog isn't too bad. When the smoke from burning chapparal doesn't blacken the sky.)

A one billion year warranty probably wouldn't cause a huge rush for these devices. Shit, even Enron raising the power rates through the roof didn't do it.

Lots and lots and lots and lots of bullshit whining on how "the price of solar power is coming down" hasn't produced a rush to install the capacity. I very much doubt that a bill signed by the Hydrogen Hummer boy, the Steroid Crazed Gropenator, will do all that much either.

Talk is cheap. Apparently solar power isn't.

"The biggest hurdle facing solar power is cost-effectiveness.

At a current cost of 25 to 50 cents per kilowatt-hour, solar power is significantly more expensive than conventional electrical power for residences. Average U.S. residential power prices are less than ten cents per kilowatt-hour, according to experts."

I promise! I promise! Solar power will be cheap someday!

(Man, after a few decades of reading articles like this one, one does get a sense of deja vu all over again in a repeating fashion that makes one feel that one has been through this bit before somewhere previously in an earlier experience of something very much like what one may have heard somewhere else at some time just like the one that one recalls from not so long ago or prehaps in the distant past if one remembers the things that have gone before well, si on recherche du temps perdu.)

Generating costs at a nuclear power station is between 3 and 4 cents per kilowatt hour. Worldwide nuclear capacity is 366 Gigawatts, almost 20 Gigawatts are under construction, and approximately 60 gigawatts of new plants have been proposed. This number is expected to rise dramatically in the next few years.

When PV solar power is competitive with nuclear power (and when it is as clean and as safe as nuclear power) people will build it. They won't need to be prompted. They won't need all sorts of cheering and nonsensical carrying on. There will be no need for window dressing laws. Until then, all the chanting in the world won't make PV power something it is not.



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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. The cost of new residential PV in the US and Japan is
Edited on Fri May-06-05 02:56 PM by jpak
$0.15 not $0.25-0.50.

If new nuclear plants were economical, US utilities would be building them, and not selling them off at below-book-fire-sale prices (Boston Edison sold its 670 MW Pilgrim plant for $14 million!!!! in 1999)

...and, if nuclear power was so damned cheap, why is ChimpCo pushing for billions in subsidies for new nuclear plants...

http://www.greenscissors.org/energy/neri.htm

http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1232

...and if nuclear was so damned cheap, why did US taxpayers "have" to take spent nuclear fuel off the hands of reactor operators, and have to spend $30+ billion more to dispose of it...

http://www.state.nv.us/nucwaste/yucca/loux05.htm

...and $2.6 billion to dispose of depleted UF6...

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:-c4BIowEWdAJ:www.citizen.org/documents/useceisscope.pdf+depleted+uranium+disposal+%242.6+billion+25+years&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

...and hundreds of millions to decommission uranium mines ($300-500 million for the one in Moab Utah alone)...

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/11231289.htm

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2683036

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/sview/1,3329,250010691,00.html

..and have compensate uranium workers for exposure to "safe" levels of radiation ($655+ million and counting)...

www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-03-481

....and bailout the recently privatized US Uranium Enrichment Corporation ($200++++ million)????

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:bArIKq4EnygJ:sunzi1.lib.hku.hk/hkjo/view/50/5000058.pdf+bailout+United+States+Enrichment+Corporation&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=19991213&s=silverstein

Why?

Because nuclear ain't cheap and new nuclear capacity will cost several-fold more than reactor vendors claim.

Japan recently built a GE Advanced Boiling Water Reactor. GE claimed it would cost ~$1.5 billion to build. It came in at ~$3.3 billion ($2400 per kW compared to ~$1,200 kW for new US coal capacity) - more than double the original estimate.

http://www.antenna.nl/wise/index.html?http://www.antenna.nl/wise/487/4833.html

Nuclear accidents aren't cheap either.

The 1966 meltdown of of the Fermi 1 breeder reactor cost $132 million.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/nucacc.html

The 1975 Browns Ferry fire cost TVA over $100 million in repairs (not counting the cost of replacement power) and will cost 1.8 billion to restart.

http://www.antenna.nl/wise/index.html?http://www.antenna.nl/wise/569/5410.html

Three Mile Island cost "somebody" $2 billion.

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/PA_Env-Her/tmi/tmiEpstein.htm

The recent Davis-Besse fiasco cost over $600 million dollars..

http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=3242829

After a half century of commercial operation the US nuclear industry is entirely dependent on taxpayer bailouts and subsidies for new nuclear plants.

There is a reason why no one is building them here...



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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Another subsidy the industry really wants is MOX fuel. eom
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. They're getting it - Big Time...($3.84 billiion for MOX fuel)
http://www.nti.org/e_research/cnwm/reducing/uspdispose.asp?print=true

It's cheaper and more environmentally sound to incorporate the stuff into ceramics and bury it...
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benevolent dictator Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. "and when it is as clean and as safe as nuclear power"
and when it is as clean and as safe as nuclear power

It's only "clean and safe" if you don't count all the radioactive waste and the possibility of meltdowns...

Especially in a place like California... hey, let's build nuclear power plants in a state with lots of earth quakes! Brilliant!
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Solar (PV, not photothermal) uses Ultra Violet
--has to do with the "bandgap" of the photodiodes that make up a solar cell.

UV gets through heavy clouds. I had a PV "trickle charger" for my car in the Lake Ontario snow belt.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. You're a young person, Massacure. Let's do some mathematics.
Edited on Thu May-05-05 10:58 PM by NNadir
I very much value your presence here, since you are the future. From what I can tell, you are a very fine young person. It is very important that people in the future understand how numbers are used and how they are misused.

Here is a presentation prepared for The California Energy Commission describing the current state of affairs for solar energy in the "Sunshine State:"

http://www.solarelectricpower.org/ewebeditpro/items/O63F5151.pdf

According to this presentation (last slide) which apparently is germane to the current hoopla, we have the following figures:

Current California Solar Capacity: 88 Megawatts.
Proposed Capacity in 2018 if this bill, unlike it's many predecessors actually delivers on it's promise: 3000 Megawatts.

Now, solar hype types often make statements like these: "The cost of solar capacity has fallen by 50 percent since {plug in year here}! Installed solar capacity has increased by 1000 percent since {plug in year here}. The key word, of course, in these sentences is "percent."

This is very much like the statement "Measured thyroid cancer rates after Chernobyl increased by 1000 percent." This statement is approximately true and it sounds very, very dramatic. However, if one learns that only 10 or so thyroid cancer cases had been identified in the area in a given year before Chernobyl, and that thyroid cancer isn't particularly fatal, and that almost no screening for thyroid cancer was done before Chernobyl, and almost everyone in the area is now having themselves screened for this cancer, one quickly sees that the actual case is very different than what is being advertised.

Now let's turn to percent business and solar power.

Solar hype types will sometimes make a statement like this: "Solar power is growing exponentially!"

OK, let's take them at their word. What does it mean?

I do not know how much math you know as a young person, but I will nonetheless offer the following explanation:

Typically when one says that something is growing exponentially one can use a formula that looks like this N(t) = No*exp(rt) where N(t) is the value at some time, t, and No is the value at time zero, which we will take to be the end of 2004, as described in the presentation. r is the rate at which the power is growing, t is the time and the exp refers to the function that raises the irrational number, e, to the power in the parentheses. Thus, dividing both sides of the equation by No, we have N(t)/No = exp(rt). Taking the natural logarithm of both sides we have ln(N(t)/No) = rt.

Now, according to the presentation, N(t) is 3000 Megawatts and No is 88 Megawatts. t is 2018-2004 = 14. Plugging these values in the last equation in the last paragraph and solving for r we see that r is roughly equal to 0.252.

Now, the current peak energy demand, were it to stay constant forever, which it won't, in California is about 55,000 Megawatts roughly, if all the hyped up breathless news articles about this wonderful bill to be signed by Governor Schwartzenhummer are to be believed. Typically, on most grids one has to have excess capacity built in case of burn-outs, failures, either in the grid or in the generating station. If this excess capacity is 20% then we would need 55,000*1.2 = 66,000 Megawatts of power to address California's electrical needs.

Now given our discovered "exponential" rate above, how long would it take to provide all of California's electricity needs from solar power? (In the day. When the sun is shining. When it isn't raining. When there is no snow on the ground. When the smog isn't too bad. When there are no Santa Anna driven dust storms. When the smoke from chaparral fires isn't blocking out the sun.)

From our equation we now have ln(66,000/88) = 0.252*t. Solving for t we see that the value is 26 years. This sounds reasonable but it isn't.

Why not?

Because the sun shines only one half of the day on average.

OK, let's double the capacity to 130,000 Megawatts, and store half the power we make in daylight, in magic batteries. Then how many years? 29 years. But then again, in December the daylight doesn't shine for half the time, but more like a third of the time. So really, if we want to light our Christmas displays, we really have to have three times the capacity. Now we're up to 31 years.

But wait. Batteries really aren't magical, are they? All of them have internal Resistance and lose power both on charging and discharging. Let's up the daylight power requirement by a factor of 5 overall to account for this business. Now we're up to 33 years, and can have this wonderful system by 2038, when you'll probably be my age, assuming humanity isn't wiped out by climate change before then.

Still not too bad though, is it?

Well the problem is that this is after all, an exponential relationship. As such all of the other factors also rise exponentially; the cost of the system rises exponentially; the resources required to build it rises exponentially; the land area covered rises exponentially, etc, etc.

Most people who know something about mathematical modeling, understand that most systems do not follow the same functions over broad ranges of conditions. When for instance, one is learning this stuff, the classic example is bacterial growth. The growth of bacteria in a medium follow exponential functions quite nicely when the colony is small and the medium is much larger than the colony. If the function held over all ranges, it is usually easy to calculate the amount of time that it would take for the colony to have the mass of the earth. But of course colonies never actually do reach that mass. Generally the depletion of the medium changes the modeling function into some other type of function.

In our example of the miraculous growth of solar power, lets calculate how much power needs to be installed between year 33 and year 32 in order for solar power to grow exponentially as solar hype types want you to believe it will. We have N(32) = 88*exp(0.252*32) = 280,000 megawatts and N(33) = 88*exp(0.252*33) = 361,000 Megawatts. The difference is 361,000-280,000 = 81,000 Megawatts.

According to this website, the price per watt of a solar panel is $5.10 as of this month: http://www.solarbuzz.com/moduleprices.htm

Note that the price has been rising recently, not going down as promised by our solar hype types.

Be that as it may, let's say that the price falls by a factor of 5, though, in the next 33 years, just to give our solar hype types their fantastic nonsensical assumptions. Then the price will be 1 dollar per watt. Remember though we need 81,000 MEGAwatts or 81,000 million watts. The cost of the last year's (year 32) installation is thus $81,000,000,000.00. I really don't think that the Californians of 2038 are going to want to spend 81 billion dollars for new solar capacity. Shit, this is a state where they won't even pay for their schools. For that amount of money they could invade Mexico, kill their children, rape their women and steal their energy. Given the level of American ethics and extrapolating it forward some thirty years, they'd probably prefer the Mexican option to the silicon option.

In short: It's bullshit, pure and simple.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. LOL!
Here's some other numbers to consider.

Replacing 55,000 MW of California generating capacity with new nuclear power plants at $4950 per kW (the price of the last few nuclear plants actually built in the US) would cost...
.
.
.
.
.
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.
.
.
.
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$2.27225e+11.......or 3.361 times the cost of PV...

:)
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. This must account for why we have 3000 Megawatts solar vs 60,000 MW
Edited on Fri May-06-05 09:20 PM by NNadir
nuclear power.

I'm talking to the kid.

The kid has a brain. He knows how to compare two numbers.

No one is building nuclear power plants in California, because basically people in the United States are illiterate mystics. I feel bad for the kid having to live with this third rate legacy of third rate minds, but there's nothing I can do about it. It's why the United States will become a third world third rate impoverished country worthy and deserving of the intellect of it's citizens. I suppose my main responsibility at this point is not to address Americans so much as it is to try to make my children safe from Americans.

In the real world, 60,000 Megawatts of nuclear power plants are currently under construction, not in California of course, not in the US, but in China, Korea, Japan, and India. One does not expect illiterate American religious thinkers to be aware of these countries, since these countries that the world's supply of engineering and science doctorates. Modern Americans, unlike their forbearers, are clearly uncomfortable with science and engineering and avoid even contemplating these things like the plague.

I hate to do numbers and absolute values but what the fuck, as we know from the amount of nonsensical tripe I regularly confront, I might as piss once more in the idiot wind.

There is no fucking place on earth where anyone is installing 60,000 Megawatts of PEAK solar power. This is why the solar hype types need to crow about a bill that they THINK in their desperate little nonsense scenarios MIGHT in 14 years produce 3,000 Megawatts of electricity in fucking California, where they hope that they will be able to supply 5% of the power load.
When the sun in shining. When there is no snow on the ground. When the skies are clear. At the peak of day. If there isn't much smog. If there are no dust storms.

Now, if my memory serves me well, solar hype types were hoping for 50% of the load back in 1975 "by 2000" but let's not be bothered with the history of self deluding liars.

I am certainly not going to argue prices with people who can't tell the difference between 3000 MW that might, may be, could be, potentially be installed over a period of 14 years if their fucking bill has any connection with reality (which it probably doesn't), and 60,000 that is currently under construction and will be finished in a few years. This would involve competencies that might well be useless to appeal to in the current circumstances, operations like division. Such an argument would have as much appeal as Galileo's appeal to the pope that the earth really did orbit the sun.

However, you never know, a person who can do simple arithmetic operations might read this post. For their benefit I'll post a link from people who actually support and promote solar power about prices of installed solar capacity. It involves multiplication, but what the fuck, why not?

http://www.solarbuzz.com/moduleprices.htm

Let's see $5.10/watt * 3000MW = $15,000,000,000, as in 15 billion dollars for 3000 MW of power that only delivers it's load for a fraction of the day in a fraction of year.

When the sun in shining. When there is no snow on the ground. When the skies are clear. At the peak of day. If there isn't much smog. If there are no dust storms.

Very impressive. No wonder we see threads started based promises and daydreams; no one is going to buy into this crap. It's dumb.

By the way, the climate emergency isn't going to happen in 2018. It is happening now.

Now I'm sure I'm about to hear all sorts of tripe from the religious about how the price of solar power "is coming down," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ad absurdum. (According to Solar Buzz, the price is actually rising, but to know that you'd have be able to grasp the "greater than" and "less than concept" to appreciate that.) I've been hearing this meaningless and pointless spin for over 30 years, starting with when I was a young man in California. This is actually a few years less than I've been hearing from Christians that Jesus is going to return someday.

Of course, I try to avoid hanging out with the stupid and/or the deranged, and so I've never been to either a Greenpeace meeting or a religious revival. I'd bet money though that if I wanted to waste my time on two such events, I would hardly be able to tell the difference, one from the other.

Neither the religious claim about Jesus or the religious claim about some solar nirvana as administered by the Gropenator has much appeal for me.

I am rational.






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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Gasp! Numbers!
A comparison with the worldwide renewable capacity with a single nuclear plant.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/energygraph2.html

Now, I support renewable energy, but the emergency is NOW.
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IChing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. "I am rational."
I know you are you work for GE
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-07-05 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
30. The math I'm in it Functions Statistics and Trigonometry (FST)
Next year I get to take pre-calc. We had a test on that Pe^rt as well as logarithms about two weeks ago. :P

I like your point though. As fast as it is growing, it isn't growing fast enough to solve our problems now. Solar has a few applications, but it isn't a magic bullet to every energy problem.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. The current variety of solar cells hasn't turned out to be
Edited on Thu May-05-05 06:45 PM by amandabeech
as cost effective as expected in most locations. One reason is that producing the silicon wafers requires enormous amounts of energy.

In recent years, there have been developments which may reduce the energy expended for the silicon. Amorphous silicon, which is not crystalline uses lower-grade silicon and doesn't require a crystalline form. Thin film uses different components. Neither has the efficiency of crystalline silicon, but the cost is much, much lower. There have also been reports that the amorphous silicon loses a much smaller percentage of its efficiency in overcast conditions than does crystalline silicon wafer, a boon for the cloudy areas of the country.

In addition, a method to slice the crystalline silicon much, much thinner has been developed while maintaining solar efficiency. Obviously, panels made from the thin slices contain much less embodied energy and will thus cost less.

I'm taking a wait and see position on these newer solar technologies. While I don't think that solar will replace coal and nuclear for baseline energy production, these new technologies may increase the contribution that solar can make, particularly if we make progress on electrical storage technology and instantaneously available supplies that can come on line as clouds appear.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. California ought to have 10 million solar hot water heaters
Further, all new construction should be super-insulated so that the annual heating consumption is about $200 of natural gas/methane. Windows should be limited to a certain proportion of the floor area to minimize heat loss. There should be a gas-guzzler tax on houses that are larger than 4000 square feet as a penalty for excess consumption.

That would be the best energy gain for the least cost. Of course, this PV plan will create a demand for more product and hopefully bring PV prices down by the "economy of scale" principle.

Did you know that PV prices are going to go up? Traditional PVs are made of "off specification" silicon from IC fabrication. Germany is buying up everything that is available and this will drive the price up.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Yes - PV is a (temporary) victim of its own success
Edited on Wed May-04-05 02:20 PM by jpak
Japan's 70,000 roof campaign produced 144,000 residential installations.

http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/2004/indicator12_print.htm

The program was so successful that all government subsidies for PV have been dropped.

In Japan anyway, PV is more than just competitive with grid electricity.

The price of residential electricity from the grid is $0.21 per kwh compared to $0.15 kwh for PV.

The same thing happened with Germany's 100,000 roof campaign - it ended several years early as all targets had been met.

The present situation in the US is just a symptom of growing pains. It's hard to imagine that any global market growing 25-40% per year would not experience bottlenecks in supply at some point.

Global PV production capacity is growing by hundreds of MW per year and there is little doubt that the price of PV modules in the US market will decline in the near future...

California Uber Alles!

:)
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's a Dead Kennedys song, is it not
"Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables"...?

I have heard that thin-film PVs are going to come down in price. They do not have the wafer-availability problem I described.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-06-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Thin film PV cells are made
by a chemical vapor deposition process or a vacuum deposition process (depends whose "fab" you visit) - not vastly dissimilar from flat panel displays (except fewer lithographic steps, less photoresist and etchants and developers and solvents - the nasty stuff).

The substrates that I am familiar with are a polymer coated metal foil. (Polymer prevents direct shorts to the substrate).
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Windows shouldn't be limited.
If they are designed right, they are more of a benefit than a hindrance.
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Digit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. NC is a good location for this technology
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